18:00:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
18:00:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-social-irc
18:00:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:00:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
18:00:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
18:00:39 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:00:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
18:00:40 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2016
18:00:44 <aaronpk> present+
18:00:46 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
18:00:48 <eprodrom> present+
18:01:10 <sandro> present+
18:01:29 <azaroth> present+ Rob_Sanderson
18:01:43 <cwebber2_remote> be on in a second, phone is crashing ;x
18:01:45 <sandro> present+ jasnell
18:01:49 <wilkie> present+
18:02:03 <eprodrom> Can we get a scribe for today?
18:02:13 <sandro> scribe: sandro
18:02:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> i can scribe too, just had to make sure i had a good keyboard
18:02:43 <Arnaud> present+
18:02:50 <rhiaro> present+
18:04:23 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-01-05-minutes
18:04:33 <rhiaro> I just created them sorry! I swear I remember doing it last week..
18:04:44 <rhiaro> So nobody will have reviewed them yet..
18:04:52 <wilkie> yeah. I remember you posting them to the mailing list D:
18:04:59 <cwebber2_remote> yay welcome frank!
18:05:00 <aaronpk> did they go to a different URL?
18:05:01 <Loqi> :D
18:05:02 <rhiaro> wilkie: I can't even find my email!
18:05:07 <rhiaro> I was looking for evidence
18:05:07 <cwebber2_remote> present+ cwebber2
18:05:13 <Arnaud> present+
18:05:31 <rhiaro> I remember editing the attendee list
18:05:33 <aaronpk> lol I see what happened
18:05:35 <rhiaro> because it's always wrong
18:05:40 <aaronpk> you did post them last week
18:05:43 <rhiaro> did I use the wrong date?
18:05:44 <wilkie> rhiaro: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-01-05-minutes
18:05:45 <aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rhiaro
18:05:45 <tsyesika> present+
18:05:47 <wilkie> hahaha
18:05:52 <aaronpk> nope, but the new page links to 2015
18:05:54 <wilkie> 2015 != 2016
18:05:58 <rhiaro> derp
18:05:58 <sandro> Welcome to Frank Karlitschek, new Invited Expert from ownCloud project
18:06:06 <wilkie> dates are HARD
18:06:22 <aaronpk> fixed that oops
18:06:24 <sandro> eprodrom: we use IRC for voting, out-of-bank discussion
18:06:38 <rhiaro> okay, retract my previous statement, minutes were there all along
18:06:39 <jaywink> jaywink has joined #social
18:06:44 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of Jan 5 2016
18:06:48 <eprodrom> +1
18:06:51 <cwebber2_remote> +1
18:06:52 <tsyesika> +1
18:06:52 <wilkie> +1
18:06:53 <aaronpk> +1
18:06:55 <azaroth> +1
18:07:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:07:08 <rhiaro> +1
18:07:16 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of Jan 5 2016
18:07:42 <sandro> topic: upcoming F2F meetings
18:07:56 <Frank> Frank has joined #social
18:07:56 <sandro> eprodrom: March, hosting at MIT
18:07:59 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16
18:08:01 <sandro> PLEASE RSVP
18:08:06 <cwebber2_remote> welcome Frank !
18:08:53 <cwebber2_remote> that was probably me, it looks like I never successfully muted (using someone else's phone, not sure why I failboated so bad)
18:09:01 <cwebber2_remote> also I accidentally hung up, I'm doing awesome
18:09:31 <jaywink> sorry me, first time :)
18:10:03 <Loqi> Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-01-05-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87517&oldid=0
18:10:04 <Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87515&oldid=87513
18:10:05 <Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/AS2 CR]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87518&oldid=87448
18:10:05 <cwebber2_remote> o/ jaywink
18:10:06 <Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87516&oldid=87515
18:10:11 <sandro> topic: June F2F in Portland
18:10:33 <sandro> aaronpk: Okay to host at ESRI Portland office
18:10:44 <sandro> aaronpk: maybe I should create a doodle poll
18:11:06 <Karli> Karli has joined #social
18:11:33 <jaywink> present+ jaywink
18:11:49 <azaroth> us++
18:11:50 <sandro> aaronpk: I will
18:11:53 <Loqi> us has 1 karma
18:12:02 <sandro> eprodrom: any obvious conflicts
18:12:08 <sandro> topic: New Invited Experts
18:12:19 <wilkie> hello frank!
18:12:23 <sandro>  Frank Karlitschek
18:12:42 <sandro> Frank: Happy to be here, I consider this super important, to bring real standards to this space
18:13:03 <sandro> .. I've been doing open source for ~20 years, board member of KDE project, and most well known as founder and leader of ownCloud
18:13:28 <sandro> ... it's free software alternative to things like gdrive, icloud, etc.   FRee and open source, with federation
18:14:12 <sandro> ... original vision was sharing files, but now we do more in the social area.   with ownCloud9 we'll have comments, etc, around shared files.    Blurring the line between cloud storage and social networks
18:14:25 <sandro> ... we really want to do this in an open, standard, right way!
18:14:43 <sandro> ... hopefully we can help with making test implementations, etc
18:14:51 <sandro> eprodrom: Thank you, welcome
18:15:16 <sandro> topic: webmention draft
18:15:33 <sandro> aaronpk: It was published!
18:15:39 <aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/
18:16:01 <the_frey> the_frey has joined #social
18:16:13 <sandro> eprodrom: Any changes in this version
18:16:31 <sandro> aaronpk: no, you can look at gh commits, but really just formatting and references
18:16:56 <sandro> eprodrom: issues continue to be tracked on github
18:17:06 <rhiaro> https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/
18:17:10 <wilkie> yay
18:17:12 <Loqi> :D
18:17:13 <rhiaro> No new updates
18:17:24 <sandro> sandro: social-web-protocols was also published at the same time
18:17:29 <sandro> eprodrom: great!
18:17:59 <sandro> q+
18:18:23 <eprodrom> q?
18:18:25 <sandro> aaronpk: There are some issues -- it would be good to keep talking about them on github
18:18:38 <eprodrom> ack sandro
18:19:31 <azaroth> I'll add it to the Annotation WG agenda for tomorrow
18:19:55 <sandro> sandro: This is a great time to tell folks about it, if you can think of anyone who should know
18:20:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> might be good to try to inform projects like wordpress, etc things
18:20:38 <sandro> sandro: Sometimes it makes sense to really push the word out
18:20:45 <sandro> +1 ben_thatmustbeme
18:20:59 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme, can you do that?
18:21:09 <sandro> topic: ActivityPump
18:21:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> i'll try to reach out to them
18:21:44 <sandro> tsyesika: Expecting a vote today on whether ap would go to FPWD
18:21:48 <cwebber2_remote> we thought today was where we approved the standards for fpwd
18:21:49 <ben_thatmustbeme> there is already a plugin for it, but its certainly a different thing to get them looking at it directly
18:21:51 <cwebber2_remote> not publish
18:21:55 <cwebber2_remote> :X
18:22:31 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-15-minutes <-
18:22:43 <eprodrom>  Request raise FPWD-blocking issues on ActivityPump and micropub by 12 Jan 2016
18:23:06 <sandro> eprodrom: My fault for not putting this on the agenda, but yes, we agreed on this
18:23:48 <sandro> tsyesika: I think we're ready to go ahead, yes
18:24:30 <sandro> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump
18:24:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/
18:24:49 <cwebber2_remote> my phone keeps dropping off :
18:25:08 <cwebber2_remote> q?
18:25:12 <cwebber2_remote> q+
18:25:21 <eprodrom> ack cwebber2_remote
18:25:33 <cwebber2_remote> AUGH
18:25:35 <cwebber2_remote> phone dropped again
18:25:37 <cwebber2_remote> I'll say it here.
18:25:55 <cwebber2_remote> I think we're ready for FPWD.  I was under the impression that we were voting today on both AP and micropub
18:25:57 <cwebber2_remote> apparently I was wrong
18:26:05 <cwebber2_remote> so we were supposed to publish by today?
18:26:37 <sandro> eprodrom: I don't think you were wrong, they just didn't make it to the agenda
18:26:56 <cwebber2_remote> if that's true, I think we should publish, I was under the impression we scheduled things so that AP and micropub would be published at the same time
18:27:00 <cwebber2_remote> and the vote would happen today
18:27:07 <cwebber2_remote> hence my confusion things are up already
18:27:17 <cwebber2_remote> so does there need to be a vote even?  we can do one
18:27:28 <cwebber2_remote> or should we just move on to process?
18:27:34 <cwebber2_remote> and get it published and up?
18:27:58 <sandro> sandro: I no longer see a need to publish these at the same time, since there's no front-page news, etc
18:28:13 <cwebber2_remote> ok
18:28:21 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: Publish FPWD of ActivityPump
18:28:24 <sandro> +1
18:28:25 <cwebber2_remote> +1
18:28:26 <rhiaro> +1
18:28:26 <tsyesika> +1
18:28:27 <jaywink> +1
18:28:30 <eprodrom> +1
18:28:34 <wilkie> +1
18:28:34 <aaronpk> +1
18:28:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:28:43 <azaroth> +1
18:29:18 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of ActivityPump
18:30:36 <sandro> w3.org/TR/activtypump
18:30:39 <sandro> w3.org/TR/activitypump
18:31:47 <eprodrom> activity api
18:31:49 <sandro> sandro: this is a good time to settle the name, but it doesn't have to be final really
18:31:59 <cwebber2_remote> I think activitypump is fine personally...
18:32:19 <rhiaro> activitypub!
18:32:21 <sandro> eprodrom: as the person who introduced the term "pump", I kind of lean toward something more like "activity api"
18:32:21 <cwebber2_remote> I don't have another name really ready
18:32:25 <cwebber2_remote> rhiaro: haha!
18:32:35 <aaronpk> lol
18:33:09 <sandro> eprodrom: I'm fine with activitypump
18:33:17 <the_frey> the_frey has joined #social
18:33:39 <sandro> topic: micropub fpwd
18:34:23 <sandro> aaronpk: I haven't cleaned it up yet, so I'd like to not vote this week, but I'll try for next week
18:35:09 <eprodrom> rhiaro: I like it
18:35:22 <sandro> topic: AS2 Exit Criteria
18:35:24 <cwebber2_remote> rhiaro: activitypub would be fine by me
18:35:28 <cwebber2_remote> I can scribe
18:35:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> i can
18:35:32 <cwebber2_remote> assuming my phone doesn't cut out
18:35:40 <eprodrom> scribe: cwebber2_remote
18:35:48 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: cwebber2_remote
18:35:57 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: procedurally when we go to CR we need to spell out for the director and the public what's our exit criteria
18:36:20 <cwebber2_remote> and the procedure is usually 2 interoperable implementaitons
18:36:27 <aaronpk> (i'm +1 on ActivityPub as well but don't have a strong opinion either way)
18:36:34 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AS2_CR#Exit_Criteria
18:36:35 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: we could go for a more strict version, 2 real versions
18:36:43 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: people suggested I write that down so I did
18:37:10 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: there are two proposals on this page, that 2 activitystreams must be used by at least 2 systems
18:37:11 <azaroth> (Can we go back to the name after current discussion? +1 on ActivityPub as well)
18:37:18 <Arnaud> q+
18:37:31 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: so tantek especially asked can we have a stricter verison
18:38:03 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: the stricter version is have 2 versions with produced and consumed by qualified implementations, and we have to have a report by a developer, they have to make it available so we can see that it does what it does
18:38:11 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: and they have to have a reason for that feaure
18:38:39 <azaroth> q+ to -1 asking for rationale for every feature
18:38:49 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: I was thinking this way in response to the criticism that some people will look at this work and say "nobody is using this" and this gives us for solid proof to show it's used
18:38:58 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: that's me laying out the space, I don't have a strong opionion
18:39:25 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: for example, paging is one feature, so at some point someone has to cluster what the features are
18:39:31 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: what granularity?
18:39:40 <sandro> q?
18:39:45 <sandro> q+ james
18:39:51 <cwebber2_remote> jasnell: I can't queue up on irc so I'll queue up here
18:39:54 <eprodrom> ack Arnaud
18:40:05 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: I appreciat ethe intent but I think it's going too far
18:40:16 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: I've never seen this requirement before
18:40:33 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: and it prevents someone from doing an implementation in a product they can't show you
18:40:36 <sandro> Arnaud: (this requirement to have access)
18:40:48 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: it's great if someone can give you access, and maybe we should ask that, and if so it's great, b ut not sure it should be a must
18:41:06 <azaroth> +1 to Arnaud
18:41:15 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: as for features, the burden you're putting on people may disincentivize people adding them
18:41:28 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: it seemas backward, we preusmably put things in the spec because we must have a reason to do it
18:41:32 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: it seems odd to me
18:41:49 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: the quick answer, i think there's a space between we thought it would be useful and it actualy is useful
18:42:13 <azaroth> q-
18:42:15 <cwebber2_remote> Arnaud: maybe there's a middle ground we can find there, indicate which things you found useful, without people documenting why they use it
18:42:25 <eprodrom> ack azaroth
18:42:30 <azaroth> (Arnaud covered my point very well already)
18:42:38 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: I do want to move us along, so I guess azaroth next?  oh okay
18:42:43 <Arnaud> yw :)
18:42:45 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: do you want to reiterate here?
18:43:12 <cwebber2_remote> azaroth: really just to +1 Arnaud, having people write the documentation for use cases, considering the extent of the spec, would be very time consuming
18:43:32 <cwebber2_remote> azaroth: even just "please write an email and say what and why you're using" would be sufficient to capture the intent
18:43:42 <eprodrom> ack james
18:43:51 <sandro> azaroth: It would be a big barrier to force people to describe all their motivations.  No need to get all processy.   Just ask for an email about what they're using
18:44:22 <cwebber2_remote> jasnell: one thing we chose not to do at the beginning was to document those things, now we're doing a reverse process figuring out use cases, but I think at this point it might be worth documenting what the key use cases are
18:44:51 <cwebber2_remote> jasnell: I can take a first stab at giving a formal list on core use cases based on current spec
18:44:55 <cwebber2_remote> ... and we can go from there
18:45:10 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: that sounds reasonable, I think that the motivation here is to show widespread use of those use cases
18:45:10 <sandro> q+
18:45:25 <eprodrom> ack sandro
18:45:31 <cwebber2_remote> ... I think we have the use cases from first principles that shows they're worth having
18:46:02 <eprodrom> argh, lost my connection
18:46:11 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: so I haven't heard anyone say no to the high bar, so I suggest maybe what we do is have the exit criteria be the minimum one (every feature of AS2 used) but then we show what every feature is used in implementation
18:46:19 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: maybe we talk a bit and try to find out what has more data
18:46:28 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: in light of those implmentations
18:46:52 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: so I'll say, james, does what I'm saying make sense, would you be interested in updating your future use cases documentation with things to be implemented(?)
18:47:01 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: yep hi I'm sorry
18:47:07 <cwebber2_remote> jasnell: I'm driving on mute (???)
18:47:25 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: if you're interested and see the value in gathering the use cases, should we do an implementation report
18:47:35 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: see what use cases we think they're doing
18:47:47 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: because I think we need to have an implementation report
18:48:05 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: so if we can make use cases and get the implementation report... does that make sense and sound compelling?
18:48:33 <cwebber2_remote> jasnell: yeah, I'm chalenging how we reconcile that because I'm not sure what list we have of what we're reconciling against
18:48:54 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: so I'm suggesting we go with the minimum version, and we have the second part to do our own good effort
18:48:59 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: that makes a lot of sense
18:49:05 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: and makes our process a lot more defensible
18:49:35 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: there were some parts of this that were a little bit more controvercial, as in terms of things that are accessible vs private vs commercial not-easy-to-access
18:49:43 <cwebber2_remote> ... but I guess we'll deal with that on a case-by-case basis?
18:49:52 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: yes we'll report based on what we can learn from them
18:50:10 <cwebber2_remote> eprodrom: yes as a decision making point, can we deal with this as a proposal to use the exit criteria as defined in proposal 1?
18:50:11 <aaronpk> define "system"?
18:50:14 <cwebber2_remote> sandro: yes I'll define it
18:50:26 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two systems
18:50:32 <aaronpk> q+
18:50:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two independent implementations
18:51:16 <aaronpk> q-
18:51:16 <sandro> +1
18:51:19 <tsyesika> +1
18:51:20 <cwebber2_remote> +1
18:51:21 <aaronpk> +1
18:51:25 <jaywink> +1
18:51:26 <eprodrom> +1
18:51:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:51:29 <azaroth> +1
18:51:36 <rhiaro> +1
18:51:41 <wilkie> +1
18:51:55 <sandro> RESOLVED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two independent implementations
18:53:01 <sandro> sandro: next on AS2 is test suite / validator stuff, probably
18:53:18 <sandro> topic: Action Items
18:53:48 <aaronpk> q+ for later to drop a link to the Doodle poll for the June meeting
18:54:05 <sandro> eprodrom: I got some action items done, ACTION-80 and ACTION-85
18:54:12 <eprodrom> q?
18:54:16 <eprodrom> ack aaron
18:54:16 <Zakim> aaronpk, you wanted to discuss later to drop a link to the Doodle poll for the June meeting
18:55:18 <sandro> action-84?
18:55:18 <trackbot> action-84 -- Sandro Hawke to Bring issue to i18n -- due 2015-12-09 -- OPEN
18:55:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/84
18:55:29 <cwebber2_remote> q+
18:55:33 <sandro> not clear, will figure out.
18:55:44 <aaronpk> q+
18:55:48 <eprodrom> ack cwebber2_remote
18:55:50 <sandro> topic: AOB
18:55:54 <azaroth> +1 to ActivityPub
18:55:58 <cwebber2_remote> and my phone droped again
18:56:11 <azaroth> I'm convinced by Amy's rationale :)
18:56:15 <cwebber2_remote> but I'll say +1 activitypub :)
18:56:17 <cwebber2_remote> I think it's fine
18:56:18 <tsyesika> I am for it too
18:56:19 <tsyesika> :)
18:56:24 <rhiaro> \o/
18:56:24 <tsyesika> if that matters :P
18:56:28 <cwebber2_remote> I like both activitypub and activitypump
18:56:31 <tantek> present+ tantek
18:56:34 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: change name of ActivityPump to ActivityPub
18:56:36 <cwebber2_remote> today is not a good day for me to be on this call :)
18:56:40 <cwebber2_remote> phones hate me
18:56:42 <azaroth> +1
18:56:44 <tsyesika> +1
18:56:45 <cwebber2_remote> +1
18:56:46 <rhiaro> +1
18:56:48 <eprodrom> +1
18:56:49 <tantek> +0
18:56:51 <wilkie> +0
18:56:57 <aaronpk> +0
18:57:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> +0
18:57:04 <sandro> -0 (I like the pump metaphor)
18:57:09 <jaywink> +0 (fine with both - though pub's have good beer!)
18:57:17 <eprodrom> q?
18:57:41 <sandro> tantek: Why change name at last minute?
18:57:55 <sandro> eprodrom: It's just it's caried from pump.io without being that related
18:58:00 <cwebber2_remote> Note: I'm also +1 on activitypump :)
18:58:13 <cwebber2_remote> I always liked activitypump, but rhiaro makes a good case
18:58:24 <cwebber2_remote> and eprodrom doesn't seem excited about the name
18:58:42 <sandro> sandro: I was asking if we wanted a hyphen!
18:58:44 <cwebber2_remote> one question is, does aaronpk feel like it dilutes "micropub" as a name?
18:59:06 <sandro> tantek: so you're saying "pump" isn't warranted since it's that like "pump.io"
18:59:27 <sandro> eprodrom: Yeah, pump.io folks wont recognize it in activity pump
18:59:31 <tantek> q?
18:59:38 <eprodrom> ack aaronpk
18:59:42 <sandro> +1 (that motivates the change for me)
19:00:12 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: change name of ActivityPump to ActivityPub
19:00:12 <tantek> great, ship it
19:00:16 <aaronpk> unexpected agenda item: rename activitypump!
19:00:30 <sandro> activitypub
19:00:45 <tantek> agenda?
19:00:48 <cwebber2_remote> I have to leave now
19:00:48 <tantek> ok then
19:00:54 <cwebber2_remote> sounds like call is over anyway
19:00:57 <cwebber2_remote> good call!
19:01:02 <tantek> I have to leave soon too - AB meeting
19:01:05 <aaronpk> link to doodle poll for the pdx meeting: http://doodle.com/poll/5a8nfcfkqiwxwhpv
19:01:08 <aaronpk> just to have that in hte minutes
19:01:12 <wilkie> yay
19:01:21 <eprodrom> trackbot, end meeting
19:01:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:01:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, eprodrom, sandro, Rob_Sanderson, jasnell, wilkie, Arnaud, rhiaro, cwebber2, tsyesika, jaywink, tantek
19:01:26 <jaywink> thanks all! nice first phone meeting :) hangouts works fine
19:01:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:01:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-social-minutes.html trackbot
19:01:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:01:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items