17:58:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:58:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-irc
17:58:22 <Michiel> present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:00:43 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:00:48 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
18:01:24 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:02:50 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:02:57 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
18:03:00 <MichielBijl> present+ Jon_Gunderson Leonie_Watson Matt_King James_Nurthen Michael Cooper
18:03:01 <jamesn> agenda?
18:03:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:03:14 <jamesn> agenda?
18:03:16 <MichielBijl> present- Michael Cooper
18:03:17 <annabbott> present +AnnAbbott
18:03:25 <MichielBijl> present+ Michael_Cooper
18:03:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html
18:03:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ Continue review of sections 2.12 Dialog (Tooltip) and 2.22 Popup Help (aka Bubble Help)
18:03:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:03:40 <mck> mck has joined #aria-apg
18:03:47 <jamesn> Meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
18:04:02 <jamesn> Happy New Year everyone
18:05:24 <jongund> present +jongund
18:05:36 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:06:13 <jongund> thnaks
18:06:54 <jamesn> agenda?
18:07:30 <annabbott> scribe: AnnAbbott
18:07:30 <jamesn> scribe: annabbott
18:09:40 <annabbott> zakim, next item
18:09:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:09:42 <MichielBijl> Teleconference cheat sheet: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
18:09:58 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
18:09:58 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:59 <Zakim> 1. Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html [from jamesn]
18:09:59 <Zakim> 2. Continue review of sections 2.12 Dialog (Tooltip) and 2.22 Popup Help (aka Bubble Help) [from jamesn]
18:09:59 <Zakim> 3. Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status [from jamesn]
18:10:26 <JF> JF has joined #aria-apg
18:10:32 <jamesn> zakim, clear agenda
18:10:32 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:10:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review draft of landmark design pattern (John/Ann)
18:10:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar
18:10:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Discuss example development work in progress
18:10:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:10:42 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
18:10:42 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review draft of landmark design pattern (John/Ann)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:10:53 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
18:11:18 <JF> Present+ JF
18:12:42 <jamesn> present+ AnnAbbott
18:12:54 <jongund> https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
18:13:43 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
18:14:07 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:15:37 <LJWatson> Fragment ID for 2. Landmark design patterns https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#aria_landmark
18:17:19 <annabbott> Matt thinks widgets should come first, then landmarks
18:18:10 <annabbott> Ann does not agree
18:20:15 <annabbott> Matt: start with an example page
18:22:17 <LJWatson> q?
18:22:17 <annabbott> Matt: refer to Section 4
18:22:38 <JF> Q+ to ask about editorial of the content, specifically "it is imperative that all content reside in a semantically meaningful landmark or content will be orphaned and missed by the user."
18:22:58 <LJWatson> q+ to ask about clarity of advice regarding HTML5.
18:29:10 <mck> q?
18:30:18 <jamesn> rrsq+
18:30:21 <jamesn> q+
18:31:58 <annabbott> JF: questions whether all content must be within appropriate landmark
18:32:14 <annabbott> Ann: guidance per RSchwerdtfeger
18:34:49 <jamesn> q?
18:35:05 <LJWatson> ack me
18:35:05 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to ask about clarity of advice regarding HTML5.
18:35:14 <LJWatson> ack JF
18:35:14 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about editorial of the content, specifically "it is imperative that all content reside in a semantically meaningful landmark or content will be orphaned and
18:35:17 <Zakim> ... missed by the user."
18:35:36 <annabbott> Matt: browsers and screen readers all handle landmarks differently
18:35:47 <mck> q?
18:37:11 <mck> Without landmark roles, keyboard navigation is limited to form controls and anchor elements via "endless" tab navigation. The use of landmarks roles support
18:37:15 <annabbott> JamesN: all content musts be in landmarks IF using landmarks
18:37:52 <annabbott> Matt: landmarks don't help kbd nav except for screen reader users
18:39:59 <annabbott> JGund: landmarks should not be required
18:40:21 <annabbott> JGund: landmarks do not solve kbd issues
18:40:45 <annabbott> JGund: desire for something simple about landmarks - how to balance/support?
18:41:48 <annabbott> LWatson: what complexity?
18:42:33 <annabbott> JGund: test tools have lots of rules re: landmarks and HTML 5 has added to complexity
18:43:15 <jongund> http://fae20.cita.illinois.edu/rulesets/ARIA_STRICT/rc/#id_h2_ID_LANDMARKS
18:43:30 <annabbott> JF: problem is difference betwen rule and best practice
18:44:06 <annabbott> JF: difference between MUST and SHOULD
18:44:36 <annabbott> Matt: no MUST in APG tho required is loosely used
18:45:49 <annabbott> Matt: pivot point is with ARIA 1.1 and our goal is publish APG with ARIA 1.1
18:46:22 <annabbott> Matt: APG is guidance, not rules
18:47:22 <annabbott> Matt: Jon/Ann make bulleted list of proposed items as basis of next discussion
18:48:12 <annabbott> JGund: rework current so there is something for others to comment/review
18:49:47 <annabbott> JF: not table of contents, but table of structure
18:50:24 <annabbott> Matt: lead with examples where ever possible
18:53:37 <annabbott> JGund: example pages is good idea
18:55:52 <annabbott> Matt: no meeting on Jan 18
18:56:07 <annabbott> Matt: review landmarks on Jan 25
19:05:10 <annabbott> JGund: doesn't think we want to be in business of listing/cataloging tools
19:06:06 <annabbott> Ann: agrees
19:07:23 <annabbott> JGund: instead rely on/propose to W3C tools group
19:07:53 <annabbott> Matt: would recommend getting rid of toolkit references
19:08:11 <JF> +1 to BRyan's suggestion
19:09:12 <annabbott> Bryan: simply include URL to W3C tools group
19:10:02 <JF> Bryan, shadi's email is: shadi@w3.org
19:14:58 <JF> ACTION: bgaraventa1979 to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:14:58 <trackbot> Error finding 'bgaraventa1979'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:15:27 <JF> ACTION: Brian Garaventa to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:15:27 <trackbot> Error finding 'Brian'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:15:30 <annabbott> zachim, take up item 3
19:15:56 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
19:15:57 <annabbott> zachim, take up agenda item 3
19:16:00 <MichielBijl> Zakim, take up item 3
19:16:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Discuss example development work in progress" taken up [from jamesn]
19:16:07 <JF> ACTION: garaventa to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:16:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1764 - Reach out to shadi to establish a link for aria tools to be included in the apg due in 2 weeks [on Bryan Garaventa - due 2016-01-11].
19:16:44 <bgaraventa1979> John, I think my nick is bgaraventa
19:17:34 <annabbott> JGund: Jemma isn't here today so hasn't had a chance to meet
19:19:13 <annabbott> Matt: look at menu and radio group next week (1/11)
19:19:44 <annabbott> JGund: will work with Jemma on Friday
19:21:16 <annabbott> Matt: Michiel - will you be ready to review alert next week?
19:21:29 <annabbott> Michiel: yes
19:21:58 <jamesn> 1
19:23:22 <annabbott> Matt: next week toolbar review
19:24:47 <annabbott> Michiel: should we have breadcrumb design pattern?
19:25:01 <annabbott> JamesN: yes
19:25:27 <JF> Matt asked about "toolbar" - I don't see a reference in WCAG, but UAAG references it as a single word: 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface:  The user can have any direct commands in the UA user interface (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) be presented with their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA)
19:26:06 <MichielBijl> Here is a link to the GitHub issue for bread crumbs: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/130
19:26:51 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:26:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:26:55 <JF> [discussion] editorial is to use "toolbar" (all one word)
19:26:59 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
19:27:07 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:28:31 <annabbott> zakim, bye
19:28:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Cooper, jongund, JF, AnnAbbott, Bryan_Garaventa
19:28:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:29:23 <MichielBijl> present- LJWatson
19:29:26 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:29:39 <MichielBijl> present- jongunf
19:29:41 <MichielBijl> present- jongund
19:29:56 <MichielBijl> chair: Matt_King
19:30:11 <MichielBijl> rssagent, make minutes
19:30:30 <MichielBijl> rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl