17:25:25 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:25:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-irc 17:25:27 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:25:27 Zakim has joined #aria 17:25:29 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 17:25:29 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 17:25:30 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 17:25:30 Date: 17 December 2015 17:25:32 chair: Rich 17:25:44 Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group 17:25:51 RRSAgent, make log public 17:26:54 jongund has joined #aria 17:27:02 MichielBijl has joined #aria 17:27:52 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html 17:28:19 janina has joined #aria 17:28:54 present+ janina 17:29:14 tzviya has joined #aria 17:29:27 fesch has joined #aria 17:29:40 present+ Michiel_Bijl 17:29:49 present+ TzviyaSiegman 17:29:56 present+ fesch 17:29:58 Suman has joined #aria 17:31:34 present+ Rich 17:32:08 regrets+ BryanGaraventa JonGunderson LeonieWatson JoanmarieDiggs 17:32:52 present- Michiel_Bijl 17:32:56 present+ MichielBijl 17:33:28 jemma has joined #aria 17:34:00 present+ MichaelC 17:34:09 scribe: MichielBijl 17:34:57 can someone copy webex meeting link here? 17:35:04 https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e 17:35:14 present+ George_Kerscher 17:35:24 RRSAgent, agenda 17:35:24 I'm logging. I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:35:31 thanks Michiel 17:35:45 Zakim, agenda 17:35:45 I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl 17:36:47 present+ JemmaJaEunKU 17:36:49 Topic: Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended Descriptions 17:37:00 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html 17:37:44 clown has joined #aria 17:38:10 cyns has joined #aria 17:39:31 Michiel has joined #aria 17:39:59 RS: problem with link 17:40:09 RS: it can't be a role, it has to be an attribute 17:40:21 RS: you still want to know it's a link 17:40:27 q+ 17:40:37 RS: if it's detail/summary you want to know it is a detail/summary 17:41:37 JS: things could be external 17:41:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html clown 17:41:59 CS: is this a whole new thing? 17:42:51 q+ to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to? 17:43:31 q+ to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes 17:43:48 CS: longdesc isn't stringyfied 17:44:00 CS: how do I link to external sources on the API level? 17:44:17 RS: longdesc applies directly to an element 17:44:29 RS: What if the link is elsewhere in the document? 17:44:37 RS: What if we use details/summary? 17:44:48 Suman has joined #aria 17:45:03 RS: You could reference the details element 17:45:38 RS: you have an object that reveals the content 17:45:49 RS: I don't know if it'll work the same as longdesc 17:46:14 RS: I'm guessing AT can go in and activate the longdesc? 17:46:32 CS: This is not final, but I've been thinking of creating a hyperlink pattern. 17:46:50 CS: So the element could be whatever it is, but act like a hyperlink 17:47:03 JS: that could still be internal 17:47:42 CS: It's going to be hard enough to implement one mechanism 17:47:46 CS: let alone two 17:49:13 RS: could it be just describedat? 17:49:24 RS: You don't want to stringify 17:49:41 JS: There is nothing in the HTML spec that limits it to description 17:50:18 CS: Don't think we need something special 17:50:39 GK: Information on another server can be updated. 17:50:57 clown, you wanted to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to? 17:54:08 GK: We have description, simplified description, 3d printer item, each has human readable description. And a way to select it. 17:54:44 TS: I have alt text, and a video description, are we talking about described by? 17:54:50 TS: We can't just invent a new role 17:55:16 CS: I got two places I can put something, so there can be only two things. 17:55:30 ack tz 17:55:30 tzviya, you wanted to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes 17:56:11 RS: you can have a lot of stuff inside of details if you so choose. 17:56:31 RS: We need a navigation mechanism to get to the description. 17:56:54 RS: We need to say that describedby will stringify the content. 17:57:19 RS: We don't want it to be stringified whatever the mechanism 17:57:34 RS: You can put a description in a string, or a relationship. 17:57:49 RS: We need to tell the UA not to stringify it 17:58:28 JS: What is the common use case? Remote or current document? 17:58:35 CS: Use longdesc 17:58:44 JS: That is only for images 18:01:18 NOTICE: 5 minutes left for this topic 18:02:14 JS: Mozilla loads the contents of the link? 18:02:58 JS: AT will tell you there is a longdesc available 18:03:00 Present+ ShaneM 18:03:43 RS: If you point to details/summary, should provide navigation to it 18:04:18 RS: We need something to indicate that we don't stringify and that it just points at something 18:04:38 RS: There is two ways to represent this visually 18:04:45 RS: You have a link to a site 18:04:51 RS: or a details/summary 18:05:02 RS: the latter can include about anything 18:05:18 RS: the user that doesn't see needs to know that there is a describedby 18:05:34 mck has joined #aria 18:06:16 liam has joined #aria 18:06:23 NOTICE: We're through the discussion time for this topic 18:08:39 Matt King joined on phone 18:09:07 The target should be a URI 18:09:23 an IDREF is just a degenerate case of a URI 18:09:27 TS: Can't go back to DPUB with this 18:09:34 JS: We're not deciding today. 18:09:46 present+ LiamQuin 18:10:26 Suggested reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external 18:11:30 @clown any reason that can't be used? 18:12:10 MichielBijl: no, since it has been a recommended "best practice" for a while. 18:12:26 at least, I don't see why it couldn't be used. 18:12:28 Than what the hell are we discussing? 18:12:56 q+ to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices. 18:14:14 * long discussion about longdesc * 18:14:31 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external 18:15:42 CS: that is nice, you don't have to do anything special 18:16:02 CS: AT should set up something that indicates it points at a link 18:16:36 "It is not good practice to use the above pattern when the describing element—the tag with @id='longdesc1'—is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/terms#def_hidden, since there is no way for a user to navigate to and activate the link. Use the technique only when the description is not hidden. " 18:20:44 q+ to ask tzviya what happens with children's books and A11Y today 18:20:54 zakim, ack me 18:20:54 clown, you wanted to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices. 18:20:56 I see cyns, ShaneM on the speaker queue 18:21:53 q- ShaneM 18:24:14 You can tab to hidden links the same way we use skip links today. 18:24:32 q+ to make guidance say "you should make it available all the time. If you cannot, then make it avialable conditionally" 18:24:45 I do want to stress that I agree this should be visible to everybody 18:25:52 What kind of books are we talking about? E-books right? People don't expect the same as with a paper book right? Do they mind extra information? Do they mind the links? 18:27:16 RS: Can we drop describedat? 18:27:22 JS: Not until we have a replacement 18:28:25 Should flow it out using PlantUML 18:29:02 cyns has joined #aria 18:34:42 bad question: what happens when a describedby points to an IDREF that is NOT a well-defined region? 18:34:48 ARIA wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ 18:34:50 scribe: janina 18:35:08 topic: Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0? 18:35:15 topic: aria-primary action 18:35:18 action-1736? 18:35:18 action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN 18:35:18 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736 18:35:34 rs: No problem by me, just one more thing to test. 18:35:37 rs: Any objections? 18:35:59 mk: We agreed last week, just wanted to make sue Rich was on board. 18:36:19 RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0 18:37:21 topic: Coordinating Testable Statements 18:37:37 rs: How do we avoid clashing ... 18:37:57 mc: Probably we need to generate most tests manually, regretably 18:38:23 mc: Looking for exit criteria ... 18:38:36 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html 18:39:03 mc: This is the Status statement for the CR publication of 1.1, when we get to that pint 18:39:15 s/pint/point/ 18:39:52 [mc walking through status section] 18:40:25 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd 18:40:30 mc: Believe grid tests can come over from 1.0 18:40:42 mc: then apply to role=table 18:41:01 mc: plus cross referencing grid and table ... 18:42:01 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/ 18:42:06 mc: Noting Test Harness training is Friday at 1PM Boston 18:42:30 mc: Believe ARIA tests will all come under Core-AAM 1.1 18:42:44 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4 18:42:57 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/add?testsuite_id=4 18:43:39 mc: Most important are testable statement and expected result. Can be brokinn out by OS 18:43:56 s/brokinn/broken/ 18:44:22 mc: Will be a base URI for all test files 18:44:23 q+ to ask where in git I can check in some test files 18:44:32 Base for all test files: https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.1 18:44:34 mc: Noting all tests are migrated away from hg 18:44:52 mc: Expect tests will be on github, but don't have to be 18:45:01 rs: so git pull will get all tests? 18:45:02 mc yes 18:45:56 rs: Subdirectories? 18:46:04 mc: Think people creating should organize as they see fit 18:46:05 https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.0 18:46:43 mc: Only point of directories is to group related tests 18:47:06 rs: Will you migrate testable statements? 18:47:11 mc: Can. Need to know which 18:47:34 mc: Expect most will be new. We don't need to redo 1.0 tests, only new stuff 18:47:47 mc: So will migrated on an "as needed" basis 18:47:51 tzviya has joined #aria 18:49:00 rs: Who's working the next few weeks? Anyone? 18:49:04 fe: Me 18:49:18 ts: Also me 18:49:26 clown: not me 18:49:38 clown: no commitment--but partially tracking 18:50:10 clown: grid test files were incorect in 1.0 18:50:43 mk: Especially as we're adding table and mixed grid/table 18:51:25 cs: Maybe similar to tests I put up for table with children 18:52:07 rs: 2 rows and 2 columns as a minimum? 18:52:18 clown: 3x3 better 18:52:25 mc yes, 3x3 18:52:34 mc: to cover not first or last 18:52:52 cs: Need to think about where grid could break and test for that 18:53:06 clown: same with table 18:53:22 cs: Also interaction between html table and aria table 18:53:51 cs: we have this problem with lists, logical to believe it will happen with table 18:54:29 topic: tracker migration 18:54:49 mc: Found a few issues closed but with open actions 18:54:59 mc: May be additional croft 18:55:12 mc: Can people look at their own and close things we don't need to migrate? 18:55:40 mc: Also pftracker is member only, but new tracker will be public 18:55:52 mc: We need to know if anything shouldn't migrate for that reason 18:56:06 rs: but don't touch the tracker otherwise? 18:56:10 mc: No, ok to use 18:56:24 mc: Issues will begin somewhere around 2k 18:57:19 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/ ARIA Tracker 18:57:33 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/ APA Tracker 18:57:58 mc: All items will have same id 18:58:09 mc: including action numbers 18:58:28 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ SVG A11Y TF Tracker 18:59:21 mc: Bindings to irc will change in January 19:00:44 RRSAgent, make log public 19:00:46 e-eggnog all around ... 19:00:50 zakim, bye 19:00:50 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been janina, Michiel_Bijl, TzviyaSiegman, fesch, Rich, MichielBijl, MichaelC, George_Kerscher, JemmaJaEunKU, ShaneM, LiamQuin 19:00:50 Zakim has left #aria 19:00:57 rrsagent, make minutes 19:00:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html janina 21:09:10 clown has joined #aria 22:57:21 sam has joined #aria