17:12:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:12:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-irc
17:12:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:12:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:12:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:12:15 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:12:16 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:12:16 <trackbot> Date: 10 December 2015
17:14:55 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
17:20:00 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:20:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:20:13 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
17:20:33 <allanj> chair: Jim
17:21:05 <allanj> Agenda+ Publish Note
17:21:07 <allanj> Agenda+ candidate implementations/extensions for each SC - finish (1.1.7, 1.6)
17:21:08 <allanj> Agenda+ New Guidelines
18:01:37 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
18:08:12 <allanj> http://w3c.github.io/UAAG-Implementations/Implementations-by-feature
18:08:56 <Greg> https://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20-Reference/#sc_1810
18:09:08 <Kim> Kim has joined #ua
18:09:21 <allanj> http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/
18:14:14 <allanj> regrets: eric
18:21:05 <allanj> must publish by Jan 5, 2016
18:21:33 <allanj> w3c maratoriaum - last day to publish Dec 17
18:27:12 <allanj> 1.4.5 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2015AprJun/0055.html
18:31:28 <Greg> Jeanne will check on how we should handle sections of the document that say "normative", which may or may not be appropriate when the document is now going to be a Note.
18:34:06 <allanj> scribe: allanj
18:37:29 <allanj> calling the vote to publish the note...
18:37:35 <allanj> +1
18:37:38 <Greg> +1
18:37:38 <jeanne> +1
18:37:55 <Kim> +1
18:38:39 <allanj> Resolution: Group agrees that UAAG 20 Note should be published
18:38:48 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:39:49 <allanj> Present: jim, jeanne, kim, greg
18:39:54 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:39:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:50:33 <Greg> Per Kim's suggestion, our proposal document should say that the future document should include use cases to provide UA developers with real-world examples that help them understand the users' needs and pros and cons of different potential solutions.
18:53:08 <jeanne> For the intro to Solution section: Many (most? all?) of the examples are addressed in UAAG 2.0, but they are still problems for people with disabilities.  Since the need still exists, they should be repeated in a forum that is more acceptable to the user agent vendors.
18:54:24 <jeanne> s/Many (most? all?) /All
18:55:34 <Greg> Might want to add to "are still problems for people with disabilities" "because they are not yet consistently implemented by user agents."
18:55:50 <Greg> (Don't want them to think it's because UAAG20 is insufficient.)
18:55:56 <jeanne> Many (most? all?) of the examples are addressed in UAAG 2.0, but they are still problems for people with disabilities because they are not yet consistently implemented in the browsers and user agents.  Since the need still exists, these examples should be repeated.
18:56:36 <Kim> Provide a means for users to change and coordinate keyboard shortcuts across applications. Provide a way for users to save and share keyboard shortcuts.
18:56:51 <Greg> Remove repeated "browsers should implement html5 and ARIA".
18:56:54 <jeanne> All of the examples are addressed in UAAG 2.0, but they are still problems for people with disabilities because they are not yet consistently implemented in the browsers and user agents.  Since the need still exists, these examples should be repeated.
18:58:22 <Greg> To "code around the deficiencies of user agents" could add "and their solutions may fail in some user agents".
18:58:28 <allanj> wiki page to edit - https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/DRAFT_-_Input_to_Guidelines_from_UAWG
19:01:53 <Kim> Here's some use case language for the keyboard shortcut item above: Keyboard shortcut control is important because different users have different needs. For example, single key shortcuts are good for keyboard users, but disastrous for speech users. It's important that users be able to save and share keyboard shortcut so users can share with each other and trainers can quickly set people up...
19:01:54 <Kim> ...with standard defaults for particular types of users.
19:07:57 <Greg> The "Solutions" list seems to equate to "do 5.1.1, do 5.1.2, and do all the rest".
19:09:44 <Greg> Maybe instead we should say the solution is to implement UAAG20, most importantly 5.1.1 and 5.1.2. We could also say something beyond UAAG20, such as recommending the incorporate accessibility into their processes such as testing, beta testing, and training.
19:10:28 <Greg> s/most importantly/with particular emphasis on/
19:12:21 <jeanne> Kim's comment: The difference between UAAG 2.0 and a future requirements document: UAAG was based on WCAG model, but while it is important for authors to use one solution to a user problem, the user agents can design different solutions to the problem. We hope it would be more effective to have use cases of disability needs for user agent vendors than to have a strict document like UAAG 2.0.
19:15:05 <allanj> kim: everything is a moving target. new use cases will arrive next month.
19:16:34 <allanj> ... as landscape changes, the same issues discussed in UAAG will continue to appear in each new context
19:17:31 <jeanne> s/ and training./ and developer training.
19:18:31 <allanj> js: how would we organize a solutions document?
19:19:01 <allanj> ... we followed a POUR model, with standards and platforms.
19:19:30 <jeanne> kim: Organized along lines of what would be useful categories for developers
19:19:33 <allanj> kp: focus on developers, not users. what categories do developers need
19:19:44 <allanj> by type of user agent
19:20:01 <allanj> mobile, desktop, media
19:20:17 <allanj> input, output
19:20:19 <Greg> If you want to include a statement like "polyfills are hacks - bad for accessibility" you should justify it by explaining why they're bad.
19:20:42 <jeanne> rendering engine vs user interface
19:21:23 <allanj> UI, rendering engine, interaction model (mouse, keyboard, touch, gesture, etc), output (printing,etc), API interface
19:21:25 <jeanne> not a specification, but rather a guidance document, including using PwD in design and usability
19:21:50 <jeanne> Kim: Having a video of something going wrong.
19:21:55 <allanj> kp: video of user failing
19:22:48 <Greg> If we were working on a general guidance document instead of a standard we could include a lot of things beyond the technical implementation, such as process steps like including people with a range of disabilities in usability and beta tests, providing early development copies to accessibility ISVs, etc.
19:26:21 <allanj> topic: Implementation chart
19:26:53 <allanj> 1.1.7 Allow Resize and Reposition of Time-based Media Alternatives:*
19:26:54 <allanj> *youtube - captions on top or bottom of video
19:26:56 <allanj> (http://www.whooshtranscription.com/how-to-set-the-position-of-subtitles-on-youtube/
19:26:57 <allanj> <http://www.whooshtranscription.com/how-to-set-the-position-of-subtitles-on-youtube/>)*
19:27:03 <allanj> vlc player - captions/subtitles
19:27:05 <allanj> https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Subtitles/
19:27:28 <allanj> For 1.6 decided to only test with ChromeVox. as it is an extension and by our definition it is part of the browser. All other screen readers are separate applications and are not covered by UAAG.
19:27:40 <allanj> *1.6.1 Speech Rate, Volume, and Voice:
19:27:48 <allanj> chromevox - rate, volume, voice*
19:27:58 <allanj> 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range:
19:28:11 <allanj> chromevox - pitch only.  http://www.chromevox.com/keyboard_shortcuts.html
19:28:24 <allanj> 1.6.3 Advanced Speech Characteristics: none known
19:28:43 <allanj> 1.6.4 Synthesized Speech Features:
19:29:02 <allanj> all - only for external screen readers.
19:29:03 <allanj> chromevox - read character by character, punctuation - on/off, no
19:29:05 <allanj> exceptions, one way to read numbers,
19:29:12 <allanj> 1.6.5 Synthesized Speech Language:chromevox - yes
19:32:06 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
19:32:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:35:59 <allanj> trackbot, close meeting
19:35:59 <trackbot> Sorry, allanj, I don't understand 'trackbot, close meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
19:36:17 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
19:36:17 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:36:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jim, jeanne, kim, greg
19:36:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:36:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-ua-minutes.html trackbot
19:36:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:36:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items