15:50:40 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 15:50:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-irc 15:50:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:50:44 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 15:50:44 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:50:45 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:50:45 Date: 03 December 2015 15:50:52 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 15:51:14 Regrets+ Henny 15:51:22 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:53:03 agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/ and survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/10-21-2015-Survey/ 15:53:05 agenda+ We will discuss 2.5.2 No Swipe Trap. Please see the code examples send by email. 15:53:23 agenda? 15:53:55 zakim, clear agenda 15:53:55 agenda cleared 15:54:13 agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/ and survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/10-21-2015-Survey/ 15:54:15 agenda+ We will discuss 2.5.2 No Swipe Trap. Please see the code examples send by email. 15:54:38 Present+ Kim 15:54:57 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 15:56:17 Kathy_ has joined #mobile-a11y 15:56:19 agenda+ Timeline 16:01:27 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 16:04:48 Kathy: focus on guidelines today. 16:05:03 Kathy: would like to have people identify techniques for 2.5.1 16:05:29 david has joined #mobile-a11y 16:06:18 Topic: Timeline 16:06:20 Kathy: publishes a draft ideally before CSUN – techniques especially within the touch and pointer area, some of that finalized by than. That involves getting feedback from WCAG 16:06:22 link to the current draft pls 16:07:05 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 16:07:09 Kathy: input from more people by publishing to mailing list etc. 16:07:13 present+jon_avila 16:07:18 Kathy: that's where we are hoping to go – any questions 16:07:23 present+ Kathy 16:07:25 present+ jeanne 16:07:38 present +David 16:07:46 Detlev: open questionnaire again? 16:07:47 Kathy: questionnaire is now open 16:08:09 http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-navigation 16:08:35 Topic: 2.5.2 16:08:49 can people not talking mute 16:09:03 Zakim, mute me 16:09:03 sorry, Detlev, I can't do that anymore 16:09:36 Kathy: examples sent around for 2.5.2 swipe traps 16:10:21 Can you post the link again to Alistairs example? 16:10:28 q? 16:10:36 David: reverse trap the big problem? 16:10:37 Kathy: scrolling div problem, and Alastair comment on scrolling div 16:10:39 q+ 16:10:59 Kathy: I'm not 100% clear on whether this is an issue in iOS or just HTML 16:11:47 Jon: one example it comes to mind is an infinite carousel – you can swipe through all the items and instructions that say swipe outside the carousel to move the focus away from it. Does that meet that requirement or would we see that as a failure? 16:12:13 Kathy: since they are advised that they could move away as long as they could do that with the screen reader turned on the only question is what it actually work with a keyboard to or is it only touch to do it 16:12:48 Jon: exactly and what if there's content after the carousel – you would have to swipe backwards to go through it and you could end up in the carousel again and have to touch to get out of it again – very kludgy 16:13:19 Kathy: if touch outside the carousel are you wherever you touch or outside the carousel 16:13:20 Jon: with voiceover it's wherever you touch 16:13:36 David: trying it 16:14:03 Kathy: based on that kind of behavior, do we need to change 2.5.2? 16:14:20 Jon: there must be a predictable way – touching randomly on the screen not enough 16:14:56 Kathy: should we take out user is advised of a way of moving focus away 16:14:58 Jon: just needs to be qualified 16:15:15 Jon: looking at the corresponding keyboard one it has the same problem – it assumes that if you move away you would end up on the next focus will item but it doesn't say that 16:15:55 Kathy: with keyboard it's a little more predictable – going through the page as opposed to with touch you could touch anywhere 16:16:16 Can't hear you David... 16:18:33 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 16:18:36 David: what happens if you tab – you only have a keyboard you don't have a mouse 16:19:08 Jon: you'd be tabbing through everything so you would never get out of it, but you could set up a keyboard binding. That wouldn't work for touch user 16:19:27 Jon: are we pushing for keyboard accessible for voiceover user or touch accessible as well 16:19:44 Jon: it would be similar if there was a footer on the page and you could never reach the footer because of an infinite scroll 16:19:49 David: it sounds like a big issue to me 16:20:09 Kathy: any examples that people know of or are these things were going to have to set up ourselves? 16:20:34 David: I think we need to find them in the wild. Olympic Canadian committee example, you couldn't get to the infinite scroll, it was the opposite problem 16:20:45 David: maybe we can all take an action item to look around for infinite scrolls that don't work 16:21:43 Kathy: I ran across an issue with touch access – scrollbar to get information but on mobile the scrollbar was cut off on the right hand side so you couldn't use it. Nobody can use it 16:21:44 q+ 16:22:13 q- 16:22:25 q? 16:23:35 Detlev: example that puts aria hidden on the page background preventing you from accessing – sent one example to the list that I constructed – page background doesn't get focus anymore once the page has been selected – not sure it's a realistic example 16:24:48 Kathy: after the dialogue closes you can access it? 16:24:50 Detlev: if you could get out to the browser chrome you could then go elsewhere 16:24:51 Kathy: it's not exactly a swipe trap, not sure where that fits 16:25:24 Marc: example with voiceover on no longer able to scroll 16:26:25 Marc: AT is interfering with gesture 16:26:26 David: confirming that doesn't work with voiceover on. I can view everything offscreen, but it doesn't scroll interview. I'm on the screen but on the screen all I see is up to row 12 16:26:58 Kathy: messed up for anyone with low vision 16:27:15 David: three finger swipe down doesn't scroll it 16:27:45 Kathy: how about using pointer events to change the position 16:28:29 https://github.com/cubiq/iscroll 16:28:37 David: Marc, I think this is a wonderful example we need to figure out why it doesn't work 16:29:01 Kathy: any other examples we should be looking at 16:29:20 Kathy: Marc, you mentioned the developer wasn't interested in trying to figure this out 16:29:40 Marc: we told our folks to use a different plug-in instead 16:30:06 Kathy: can you send a note on the mailing list – quite a few people who are watching us are more technical and may be able to figure that out 16:31:47 Detlev: something like the 4 finger swipe – assume that this is available – get to bottom of page, then swipe backwards 16:31:48 David: it's an escape, but it sounds like a hack – we wouldn't want people to have to do that… 16:32:11 Detlev: is that something we need to take into account, if there are gestures that are documented 16:32:30 David: we have lots of precedents for failures for things that just make it difficult – it doesn't have to be a complete failure to be a failure 16:33:03 Kathy: with the I scroll can you do a passthrough gesture to make it work 16:33:22 Kathy: so we'll do more research, Marc you will send that out on the mailing list 16:33:32 Kathy: are there any techniques or failures we can list under here right now 16:34:51 David: 2.5.1 example 16:36:14 Kathy: not even keyboard accessible 16:36:16 Jon: if it could be made keyboard accessible, maybe it would work 16:36:24 Kathy: no keyboard handlers on that 16:36:49 Kathy: anything else for 2.5.2? 16:36:50 Topic: 2.5.3 16:37:43 Kathy: Finger lift triggers event. No comments on the survey on this one. Thoughts? Techniques or failures that would go under this one? 16:38:10 Detlev: this is from the BBC mobile accessibility guidelines – they have a checkpoint for that. It's a no screenreader active kind of technique 16:38:16 Kathy: we should look at the examples under the BBC 16:38:25 David: we have to define what a long press is 16:38:50 link to bbc 16:38:52 ? 16:39:17 Marc: if you kept pressing but then move your finger away I wasn't sure how to define that – lifting your finger would be moving away also 16:39:43 http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/focus/touch-events 16:39:47 Detlev: compare points. Same as usability function – only activate on mouseup – same thing 16:40:58 Jon: in iOS use touch location, use final touch location. That says this is an issue. 16:41:00 Kathy: is this a problem for all users 16:41:01 Jon: worse for people with disabilities, but in theory yes 16:43:20 Kathy: looking at BBC examples, failure for touchstart gesture – should we have something that specific to Ontuchstart and keydown 16:43:38 David: haven't heard of that is a problem 16:43:51 Jon: with touch it's a bigger issue touch location has a bigger influence 16:45:13 David: what we have heard in the last couple of days is we can't change WCAG – we can't make new failures based on new technologies and then map to 1.3.1 or something, at least that seems to be the sentiment. Can in extensions. 16:45:34 David: this is the place to make new requirements for WCAG extension. Won't get it into the main document 16:46:14 Detlev: Can meet the descriptive link success criteria by having a heading above the link – this technique is no longer under sufficient, would fail now 16:47:07 Jon: JAWS supported that but other assistive technologies did not 16:47:34 David: I think the extension is a good place to put it 16:48:03 Kathy: so we want to put an Ontouchstart failure in here. What about key down 16:48:18 Kathy: would that fall here or under keyboard 16:49:47 Jon: we have to qualify this – could be potential situations where it may be acceptable – maybe on-screen keyboard. I'm worried if we don't have some kind of exception for it… 16:49:48 Worried that there some situations that could make this a failure 16:50:03 David: exception, drawing, but drawing doesn't do anything on touching down anyway 16:50:25 Kathy: if we were going to try to restrict this further we would need an example of where this would not work 16:50:57 Jon: what about icons – touch and hold, long press move icon around. 16:51:33 Jon: you can lift your finger to cancel it so add something like unless event has been canceled. If you hold and move your icon if you just release it it goes back to normal 16:51:59 Kathy: unless the event can be canceled. Or do we need to be more specific than that? 16:52:58 Jon: depends what the definition of canceled is? I be fine putting canceled and for now – cancel is different from undo. 16:53:13 Kathy: so how can you cancel drag-and-drop 16:53:37 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 16:54:29 Jon: in this specific case – unless you start moving the icon around, an iOS it reorders itself and so you can't put it back to where it was 16:54:30 David: hit the home button 16:54:32 Jon: home turns off the shaky movement, but doesn't but the icon back where it was 16:54:41 Kathy: maybe we have an exception for drag-and-drop? 16:55:52 Kathy: you could have a failure ontouchstart and drag-and-drop would be an exception for that – is that going to be a problem for failure… We could have a technique on touch and a failure for ontouchstart 16:56:10 Jon: I think we should have failures for all 16:56:28 Kathy: propose a title? 16:57:08 Marc: the BBC language is kind of close – "removed from a control" I don't know if removed is right – needs intention 16:57:13 Touch events are only be triggered when touch is removed from a control 16:57:33 Failure of SC 2.5.3 due to activating a button on initial touch location rather than the final touch location 16:57:37 Kathy: the BBC is written in a different tone than WCAG 16:58:58 Topic: Logistics 16:59:35 Kathy: I want to start writing up techniques and failures. We have two, does anyone want to take an action – we can do it collaboratively too 16:59:47 Kathy: sometime in the next month 17:00:26 Jon: I can do the failure – can get it to you after Christmas 17:01:00 Kathy: target is first week in January, John you have the failure for 2.5.3 17:01:02 David: need definition for long press 17:01:18 Detlev: is it supposed to be a general technique or an HTML specific technique providing access for custom controls 17:01:32 long press: pressing and holding on an item for a short time, usually opens additional menus or acts as a click-and-drag function 17:01:33 Kathy: we are doing HTML, not doing native apps right now so this would be HTML 17:01:45 q+ 17:02:01 Detlev: would be useful to have a test full of good and bad examples – difficult to relate to without it 17:02:24 Kathy: next week maybe we can put some concrete examples to them, then start working on them 17:03:02 David: pput me down for writing techniques for 2.5.3 17:04:11 Kathy: trying to get touch and pointer fleshed out as much as we can so when we go to 17:04:13 publish a draft we've got some concrete stuff that's not out there right now for mobile. We've done a lot of great work in this area, now put examples around it. 17:04:21 Detlev: I can draft providing access for touch controls 17:04:52 Jeanne: what David proposes a new success criteria for drag-and-drop 17:04:53 Kathy: that's a technique and failure under 2.5.3 17:05:07 q- 17:05:22 Marc: will tackle a general failure around functionality not being available when AT is activated 17:06:20 Marc: writing out full technique or just coming up with things that would fit under it? 17:06:21 Kathy: whole technique 17:08:21 Present+ Jeanne, Kathy, Detlev, Marc, David, Jon 17:08:26 rrsagent, make minutes 17:08:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:36:36 rrsagent, bye 17:36:36 I see no action items