15:01:00 RRSAgent has joined #exi 15:01:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-exi-irc 15:01:02 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:01:02 Zakim has joined #exi 15:01:04 Zakim, this will be EXIWG 15:01:04 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:01:05 Meeting: Efficient XML Interchange Working Group Teleconference 15:01:05 Date: 01 December 2015 15:01:17 zakim, this is exi 15:01:18 got it, taki 15:01:44 dape has joined #exi 15:05:18 scribe: TK 15:05:24 scribeNick: taki 15:09:39 TOPIC: OSS Nokalva implementation 15:10:05 DP: Objective systems at one point was implementing EXI too. 15:12:13 CB: It talks about last call draft. It may be old implementation. 15:12:22 http://www.objsys.com/support/xbrelease23.html 15:12:25 CB: Current release is 2.3. 15:12:36 brutzman has joined #exi 15:12:47 DP: It seems it no longer talks about EXI. 15:13:40 TK: I would suggest Alessandro if he might want to make an announcement on public list. 15:18:55 DB: We might want to ask OSS Nokalva to join the WG. 15:20:52 DB: I am going to New Jersey for 10 days. 15:23:00 CB: They are no longer a W3C member company. 15:24:07 s/10 days/ 10 days so maybe i can pay them a visit? 15:24:16 s/10 days/ 10 days so maybe i can pay them a visit?/ 15:24:54 it would be great to invite them to present at an upcoming EXI meeting, and also invite them to re-join W3C and participate in EXI working group. 15:25:51 TOPIC: EXI for JSON 15:27:15 DP: The idea is to keep the document very simple. 15:27:39 DP: To use EXI, and transform JSON documents to XML, to EXI. 15:28:07 DP: Similar to XQuery WG does, instead of inventing a mapping. 15:28:24 DP: I proposed a schema. We already discussed it. 15:28:42 DP: JSON to EXI, and EXI to JSON. 15:29:57 DP going through the document... 15:32:23 DP: The document is conceptually complete. 15:32:57 DP: datatype extension part needs to be described. 15:33:35 Very very interesting. Thanks for writing this up and sharing Daniel. Your concept is well described. 15:35:00 DP: I recently published Javascript implementation. 15:35:55 DP: I haven't accounced that yet. Once I got demo page set up, I will make an announcement of the implementation. 15:36:57 It looks like the approach is describing data structures. There is a lot of diverse work out there mapping JSON :: XML but it seems pretty inconsistent. 15:37:30 DB: Data structure. A lot of work has been done for mapping, however, have not been very consistent. 15:37:49 Given your excelent progress, I think there is an interesting potential opportunity to go to a next level of abstraction: mapping directly to XML, so that both XML and EXI mappings to/from JSON are possible. 15:38:06 This is possible because of the object-oriented nature of JSON. 15:39:00 DB: X3D, which is still evaluation stage, has done XML-JSON mapping. 15:39:30 DB: There, we used the same structure in both XML and JSON. 15:40:11 Paraphrase: it is possible to make JSON data structure look like equivalent XML, not pseudo- or intermediate representations.. 15:40:18 DP: In the ideal case, we can map JSON to XML, XML to JSON. 15:41:41 DP: We, Siemens, wanted to use the same implementation for dealing with XML and JSON. 15:42:43 DP: CBOR, for example. 15:42:57 DP: People need to implement both XML and CBOR. 15:43:11 DP: In our case, we have one implementation. 15:43:45 The X3D working group has recently performed a full mapping between Extensibile 3D (X3D) and JSON. 15:44:04 Since the X3D schema is fairly rich, it appears to accomplish most XML mappings of interest. 15:44:21 DB: We, X3D, have a doctype and schema. 15:44:26 We worked through a number of differences and were able to resolve them. This can likely be generalized to any XML schema (i.e. any PSVI XML, or any EXI). 15:45:10 DB: Differences in structures of JSON and XML. We were able to combine some of the existing techniques. 15:45:58 We found a number of different techniques for XML :: JSON that had many common characteristics and a few differences... we adapted the best parts as might be needed. 15:46:33 It is curious that people keep solving this core problem of XML :: JSON. 15:47:06 The X3D to JSON Stylesheet Converter page describes our approach in detail. http://www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/X3dToJson.html 15:48:08 Key section is Data Types to show mappings. A variety of examples are also provided. 15:51:15 DB: For example, "Route" element which repeats turns into an array. See Design Patterns section in http://www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/X3dToJson.html 15:52:15 DP: In general case, I wonder how XML mapping would look like. 15:54:34 DB: Element order may change slightly when other elements were between Route elements originally. 15:59:59 CB: XQuery/XSLT has defined XML-JSON mapping. They are using schema types. 16:00:21 DP: Didn't they do essentally the same way as we do? 16:02:04 "W3C HTML JSON form submission" W3C Note edited by Robin Berjon http://www.w3.org/TR/html-json-forms 16:02:05 CB: If you really want to round-trip, you need some schema-typing. No WG has done that. 16:03:08 Speculation: if we can show general 2-way mappings, and identify limitations, then a mapping might be able to address. 16:04:52 Speculation: if we can show general 2-way mappings between JSON and XML Schema, and identify limitations, then an EXI mapping might be able to address the limitations. 16:06:23 Big applause for Daniel! BCNU guys next week, aloha. 16:08:46 DP: In the future, if there are going to be a mapping between JSON and XML, then we can simply use it. 16:14:28 TK: 3.1.1 and 3.2.1 could be merged into one subsection, for example. 16:14:35 DP: Let me think about it. 16:15:14 TOPIC: Canonical EXI 16:19:26 DP: I was trying to use second-level production in some applications. 16:21:35 DP: We define everything as infoset. Implementations that use databinding, empty CH is reported. 16:25:10 DP: Event sequence should be the same regardless of strictness. 16:33:50 TK: The benefit of being consistent needs to be discussed. 16:36:52 rrsagent, create minutes 16:36:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-exi-minutes.html taki 17:05:57 Zakim has left #exi