19:42:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:42:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-aapi-irc
19:42:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:42:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:42:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:42:44 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:42:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:42:45 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2015
19:42:56 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:43:09 <clown> agenda: this
19:43:18 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-723 (Cynthia) Check that UIA control type for "application" role is Pane.
19:43:29 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-730 (Cynthia) Check that UIA localized control type for "article" role is article.
19:43:42 <clown> agenda+ (All) Reminder to check the role mappings for Dpub-aam for FPWD. - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/dpub-aam/dpub-aam.html
19:45:26 <clown> agenda:  ISSUE-682/ACTION-1745 (Joseph) What happens to required owned elements when the @role is different that the element's default? E.g. <table role="dialog"> … </table>
19:46:25 <clown> agenda+  ISSUE-682/ACTION-1745 (Joseph) What happens to required owned elements when the @role is different than the element's default? E.g. <table role="dialog"> … </table>
19:46:53 <clown> agenda+ Action/Issue/Bugzilla triage for ARIA 1.1
19:46:58 <clown> agenda+ be done
19:54:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:59:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:03 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:03:16 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:03:20 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:05:53 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:06:01 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:09:18 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:09:26 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:09:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-723 (Cynthia) Check that UIA control type for "application" role is Pane." taken up [from clown]
20:09:30 <clown> issue-723?
20:09:30 <trackbot> issue-723 -- UIA mapping for application incorrect -- raised
20:09:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/723
20:09:53 <joanie> JS: I did a bunch of modifictations to UIA mapping. You, Cynthia, wanted to double-check a couple.
20:10:01 <joanie> JS: One was application.
20:10:06 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-application
20:10:09 <joanie> JS: Link above.
20:10:16 <joanie> JS: (Reads from spec)
20:10:25 <joanie> CS: I think that's ok.
20:10:53 <joanie> CS: It's either pane or group. And neither one is ideal.
20:11:09 <joanie> JS: I will take the TBD off and sometime this week commit the change and close the issue.
20:11:13 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:11:13 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-730 (Cynthia) Check that UIA localized control type for "article" role is article." taken up [from clown]
20:11:20 <clown> issue-730?
20:11:20 <trackbot> issue-730 -- UIA mapping for article incorrect -- raised
20:11:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/730
20:11:22 <joanie> JS: This one is article.
20:11:31 <joanie> CS: So article is not a landmark anymore.
20:11:41 <joanie> CS: But I'm not sure what to do with them as a non-landmark.
20:11:50 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-article
20:11:59 <joanie> JS: You said localized role is article.
20:12:10 <joanie> JS: And role is document.
20:12:16 <joanie> q+
20:12:25 <joanie> s/role/control type/
20:12:40 <joanie> CS: I think we should change it to group; it's not a document.
20:13:04 <joanie> JS: I'll point out that it's a document in IA2 and ATK.
20:13:17 <joanie> JD: This is why I'm in the queue. An article is not a document.
20:13:30 <joanie> RS: If you want to make it a document, you might want to tell....
20:14:02 <joanie> JS: Actually I confirmed it in Firefox for IA2.
20:14:24 <joanie> CS: A document is not a smaller thing; it's more of a top-level thing.
20:14:36 <joanie> JS: The superclass role of article is document in ARIA.
20:15:59 <joanie> JS: The mapping spec for ATK/AT-SPI2 has ROLE_ARTICLE.
20:16:10 <joanie> JD: Aha, so Firefox is just not doing that.
20:16:14 <joanie> q-
20:16:53 <joanie> JS: I will change UIA control type from document to group and remove TBD for the localized control type.
20:17:14 <joanie> s/localized role/localized control type/
20:17:26 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:17:26 <Zakim> agendum 3. "(All) Reminder to check the role mappings for Dpub-aam for FPWD. - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/dpub-aam/dpub-aam.html" taken up [from clown]
20:17:38 <joanie> JS: This is just a quick, friendly reminder.
20:17:51 <joanie> RS: It's probably a little late since it's going out the door now.
20:17:59 <joanie> RS: But feedback would be great.
20:18:13 <joanie> RS: I need to look at the subroles on Mac as they don't have everything we need.
20:18:39 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:18:39 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-682/ACTION-1745 (Joseph) What happens to required owned elements when the @role is different than the element's default? E.g. <table role="dialog"> … </table>"
20:18:43 <Zakim> ... taken up [from clown]
20:18:52 <clown> Issue-682
20:18:52 <trackbot> Issue-682 -- Clarify what happens to required owned childrens' roles when native host language parent is overridden with a WAI-ARIA role. -- open
20:18:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/682
20:19:01 <joanie> JS: This is something that came up at the last ARIA meeting.
20:19:14 <joanie> JS:: It got transferred from the spec to the mapping spec.
20:19:20 <clown> <table role="dialog" > … </table>
20:19:26 <joanie> JS: If you do the above....
20:19:36 <joanie> JS: What happens to the required owned elements of the table?
20:19:40 <joanie> RS: Why would you do that?
20:19:46 <joanie> JS: Maybe you wouldn't it.
20:19:54 <joanie> BG: Setting dialog on the table element?
20:19:58 <joanie> JS: Yes.
20:20:03 <joanie> BG: I've actually done that.
20:21:15 <joanie> CS: One possibility is do the same thing as role presentation; the other is author error.
20:21:26 <joanie> RS: You could say role dialog is not allowed on a table.
20:21:50 <joanie> RS: I'm ok with making them presentational.
20:21:57 <joanie> RS: You could do this with a list.
20:22:13 <joanie> JS: I've seen this done with an unordered list with role menu
20:22:32 <joanie> RS: Is this the spec or mapping?
20:22:53 <joanie> JS: I thought the spec, but during the ARIA meeting everyone seemed to think it belonged in the mapping spec.
20:23:59 <joanie> RS: Make them none or presentation?
20:24:09 <joanie> JS: I will do both as we're still in transition.
20:24:14 <joanie> (Group agrees)
20:24:22 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:24:22 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Action/Issue/Bugzilla triage for ARIA 1.1" taken up [from clown]
20:24:32 <joanie> JS: Triage time!
20:24:45 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
20:24:46 <joanie> JS: We're trying to hit ARIA 1.1 soon.
20:24:55 <joanie> JS: The list of issues and actions is at the URL above.
20:25:15 <joanie> action-1309
20:25:15 <trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for UIA. -- due 2015-12-01 -- OPEN
20:25:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
20:25:17 <clown> action-1309?
20:25:17 <trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for UIA. -- due 2015-12-01 -- OPEN
20:25:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
20:25:24 <joanie> JS: Action 1309 is due today.
20:25:36 <joanie> CS: I still need to figure this out.
20:25:43 <joanie> CS: Please give me another week.
20:25:55 <joanie> CS: Make that two weeks.
20:26:21 <joanie> RS: We're going to start shutting things down in a week or two.
20:26:41 <joanie> RS: Sometimes people use navigate by row in email clients.
20:26:50 <joanie> RS: You might want to have rowindex there as well.
20:27:39 <joanie> JS: It's that setsize thing again (where does the property belong, on the children or parent container?)
20:27:49 <joanie> CS: Repeating the property is a performance issue.
20:27:57 <clown> action-1373
20:27:58 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-12-01 -- OPEN
20:27:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
20:28:16 <joanie> CS: I've not done this one yet.
20:28:26 <joanie> CS: When do test cases need to be done?
20:28:37 <joanie> RS: We have to create the testable statements.
20:28:54 <joanie> RS: The week I'm out, Michael will start coordinating the testable statement creation.
20:29:14 <joanie> RS: So we'll start this discussion text week.
20:29:23 <joanie> CS: When do you expect to have the tests done?
20:29:30 <joanie> RS: You need testable statements first. :)
20:29:47 <joanie> RS: We're probably going to go to CR in March.
20:30:01 <joanie> RS: We should have tests done by February.
20:30:26 <joanie> CS: Ok, let's go with February 1st for this action item.
20:30:49 <joanie> JS: I would think you'd write the test cases and statements at the same time.
20:30:57 <joanie> JS: Because it's in your mind then.
20:31:07 <joanie> RS: It depends on who is writing the tests.
20:31:18 <joanie> JS: Action item due date updated.
20:31:50 <joanie> action-1528
20:31:50 <trackbot> action-1528 -- Alexander Surkov to Bolter to investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:31:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
20:31:56 <joanie> action-1529
20:31:56 <trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:31:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
20:32:20 <joanie> action-1535
20:32:20 <trackbot> action-1535 -- James Craig to Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. -- due 2015-08-18 -- OPEN
20:32:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1535
20:32:34 <joanie> JS: We need to create an action for UIA, unless it's done.
20:32:48 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaCurrent
20:32:56 <joanie> RS: So Alex has never sent you a mapping?
20:33:16 <joanie> JS: There's a long discussion on the IA2 mapping in which Alex objects because it's different from ATK.
20:33:37 <clown> http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2015-September/001939.html
20:33:48 <joanie> JS: The above is the last message in the list.
20:34:46 <joanie> RS: What happens when you have a navigation list with links?
20:35:24 <clown> scribenick:  clown
20:35:42 <clown> JD:  the locus of focus for a list item is 'selected'
20:35:55 <clown> JD:  the locus of focus for a focussed widget is "focussed"
20:36:16 <clown> JD:  for the current link in a list of links, we use "active"
20:36:44 <clown> RS: If you tab through the links, the one with focus is not the active one, necessarily
20:36:59 <clown> JD: The "thing" you are on...
20:37:09 <clown> JD:  There are different states for the thing you are on.
20:37:29 <clown> JD:  Putting active on something not focusable nor selectable is not a problem.
20:37:41 <clown> RS:  Alex says that not possible?
20:37:52 <clown> JD  I'd have to go back to list.
20:37:58 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:38:08 <joanie> RS: (Reads list message)
20:38:32 <joanie> JS: Alex is saying if you have a widget that say is focused(?), it will be active in IA2 and ATK.
20:38:48 <joanie> JS: Joanie says that it's not active in that case; it's STATE_FOCUSED.
20:39:08 <joanie> JS: Alex is agreeing with James Teh.
20:39:20 <joanie> JS: James Teh is responding to Joanie.
20:39:36 <joanie> JS: You might need to read the entire thread.
20:39:40 <joanie> RS: Ok, I'll do that.
20:40:00 <joanie> JS: What I was going to do is respond to this one and say, "Progress? What's happening?"
20:40:13 <joanie> JS: I know that Joanie wants the current item to map to STATE_ACTIVE.
20:40:32 <joanie> RS: I think that's fine. I don't understand Alex's concern.
20:41:20 <joanie> JS: I mentioned they are working on it for AX API.
20:41:30 <joanie> JS: It looks like they finished and closed the bug.
20:41:31 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146012
20:42:27 <joanie> JS: From the bug above, they have values in AX API corresponding to the different values for aria-current.
20:42:42 <joanie> JS: AXCurrent is what they are going to use.
20:43:05 <joanie> RS: So how are you going to do the active state for that?
20:43:16 <joanie> JS: ATK is going to use the object attribute
20:43:22 <joanie> RS: That makes sense.
20:43:49 <joanie> JS: The only thing about this bug. There's a wrinkle in ATK/AT-SPI that when you change the state it spawns an event.
20:43:59 <joanie> JS: And an AT can listen to that event.
20:44:07 <joanie> JS: Apple doesn't have such a state.
20:44:24 <joanie> RS: I'll follow up via email.
20:44:47 <clown> http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/
20:44:54 <clown> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
20:47:23 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_events_selection
20:48:12 <joanie> JS: I will ask James Craig if there are any notifications for AX API.
20:48:57 <clown> Expose current=<value> in AriaProperties.
20:49:07 <joanie> CS: Confirmed.
20:49:13 <joanie> JS: Do you want an event?
20:49:50 <joanie> CS: We get a property-change notification.
20:50:08 <joanie> CS: So I don't think we need to do anything additional.
20:50:43 <joanie> JS: Anything else on aria-current?
20:51:31 <joanie> action-1530
20:51:31 <trackbot> action-1530 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate uia mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:51:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1530
20:51:48 <joanie> JS: You made some suggestion. This is for role="text".
20:51:57 <joanie> JS: I added for UIA use the text control pattern.
20:52:34 <joanie> CS: Some things have chanaged in Edge. We no longer have separate text patterns per element.
20:53:04 <joanie> CS: So I think role="text" is going to be the same as role="presentation"
20:53:34 <joanie> CS: So not mapped. We'd expose the string as part of the page's text pattern.
20:53:53 <clown> <img role-"text" alt="hi">
20:55:41 <joanie> RS: So how do you get things like lines if you have things in the middle of the content.
20:55:48 <joanie> CS: The text pattern does that.
20:56:01 <joanie> CS: We have one big text pattern for the entire document.
20:56:37 <joanie> CS: Paragraphs are a thing inside the text pattern.
20:56:57 <joanie> CS: Headings are not elements; the are an attribute of a range within the document text.
20:57:10 <joanie> CS: There's not a separate node in the tree.
20:57:30 <joanie> CS: It's similar to what's done with spans.
20:57:42 <joanie> CS: For this one, I'm not yet sure how to map it.
20:57:56 <joanie> CS: I think it's going to do the same thing as presentation, but I need to verify that.
20:57:59 <joanie> JS: What due date?
20:58:39 <joanie> CS: Give me a week from Tuesday (the 15th).
20:59:23 <joanie> Topic: Meeting next week
20:59:29 <joanie> JD: I won't be around next week.
20:59:45 <joanie> JD: I think Rich won't be around next week. Cynthis just indicated the same.
21:00:00 <joanie> Conclusion of group: No meeting next week.
21:00:43 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:00:43 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanmarie_Diggs, Cynthia_Shelly
21:00:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:01:01 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
21:01:08 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
21:02:22 <joanie> s/Cynthis/Cynthia/
21:02:28 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:02:57 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop