15:01:00 RRSAgent has joined #wpay 15:01:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-irc 15:01:04 Zakim has joined #wpay 15:01:12 rrsagent, make logs member 15:01:35 Meeting: Web Payments IG Meeting 15:01:45 dbaron has joined #wpay 15:03:12 Present+ ShaneM 15:03:13 burdges has joined #wpay 15:03:18 hello 15:03:57 present+burdges 15:04:37 Present+ Manu 15:04:41 Present+ ShaneM 15:07:13 Hello 15:07:33 Yes, I'm Jeff Burdges 15:08:01 only just getting up to speed with the group 15:10:09 Present+ MattC 15:10:36 rrsagent, make minutes 15:10:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 15:10:53 Meeting: Web Payments IG (not official telecon) 15:10:53 Meeting: Web Payments IG non-telcon 15:11:54 Topic: Introduction to Jeff Burdges 15:12:09 scribe: manu 15:13:07 Jeff: Hi Jef Burdges, working with a startup payment processor, RSA blind signatures. It's a standard Chaumian based blind signing - crypto folks like. My background, mathematician but doing software. Startup incubator type thing. 15:13:34 Manu: What are you hoping to get out of the group? 15:14:14 Jeff: Debian developer said we should get involved with this work. His opinion, he didn't want the work we're doing to be kept out of web standards. I was the person volunteered to get involved from our group. In practice, not too different from concerns of folks from Ripple, etc. 15:14:39 Jeff: interested in making sure standard is amenable to Chaumian blind signatures. 15:14:54 Jeff: For blind signatures, it's the coin that you're paying with - low risk. 15:16:47 Manu: Hey, Manu - very involved in payments and credentials at W3C. 15:17:08 ShaneM: I've been involved w/ W3C on a variety of standards - following Web Payments for a few years as well as Credentials. I'm here to get Credential stuff rolling. 15:17:21 DavidE: I'm co-chair of Web Payments WG - I keep the wheels on the wagon. 15:17:39 Topic: Status of Credentials Task Force 15:17:57 Manu: So, here's the current status 15:18:52 Manu: We decided to do something around Credentials at W3C at WPIG face-to-face meeting in Sapporo. 15:18:55 Manu: @@@ 15:19:25 DavidE: I think there is concern that we're being too secretive, but W3C staff is trying to make sure this is done correctly. 15:19:55 DavidE: This has been a little difficult, I think we're ok delaying a week - we've got input from Jeff Jaffe that he believes we should move forward on this. 15:21:55 q+ to ask why the staff has any say in this at all? 15:22:13 Manu: So, the problem is @@@@ 15:22:41 DavidE: I think next week might go a few ways - since we don't know all of the players, this is a hypothesising exercise. You have to make a best guess about where the issue is. 15:23:23 DavidE: I have though for a while that if you were to take the architecture for a general purpose credential, which is what the CG wants, and you were to figure out the components of that thing to move payments forward, and build a charter around that, it would not preclude the expansion of that energy to other work items. 15:24:08 DavidE: People could figure out if they want to move forward based on a limited charter. 15:24:12 ack ShaneM 15:24:12 ShaneM, you wanted to ask why the staff has any say in this at all? 15:24:58 q+ 15:25:07 ShaneM: If the IG has agreed to have the discussion, then have the discussion, W3C staff doesn't get a vote - they're a facilitator. If other people want to have a voice, they should come in. I don't understand how this kind of struggle resolved in any way other than in favor of the members. 15:25:36 DavidE: If this were just a struggle between us and our staff contact, it would be relatively simple, but there are others that are commenting on what's going on. 15:25:47 DavidE: I think the IG can make progress next week. 15:26:18 DavidE: This kind of exchange is unusual, but not unprecedented. 15:26:42 manu: I want to make sure we have a firm resolution next monday on which way to proceed. We have 3 options in front of us 15:26:50 1. do the work in the credential CG 15:27:13 2. create a new community group, but the CG doesn't like that option. 15:27:21 s/staff contact/staff contact (which it clearly is not from what I can see)/ 15:27:36 3. Webpayments IG creates a task force 15:28:23 There should be a proposal to an agreement on one of these options. 15:29:24 q? 15:30:04 manu: I don't think that W3C staff has the bandwidth to analyse this. My fear is that they are not prepared to make a decision on Monday. 15:31:35 q+ to note proposal to invite existing stakeholders to the conversation. 15:34:13 ack dezell 15:35:35 DavidE: You need a lot of bandwidth to deal with this issue, it's on agenda for monday. It might behoove us to have a goal of where to have discussion. 15:35:50 DavidE:Delaying minutes may not be an issue 15:36:36 DavidE: I want to make sure our discussion on Monday is straightforward - people that dial in to discussion. We need to make special dispensation - email discussion / public minutes - discussion - teleconference. 15:38:33 Manu: I think we need to make these calls open. 15:38:57 DavidE: This is the type of issue I'm concerned about - there is an economic issue - members participate, etc. I don't think we can completely get away from that. 15:39:56 DavidE: I think we can bring it up. Maybe phase I and Phase II approach might work. 15:40:50 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/ProposalsQ42015/VerifiableClaimsTaskForce 15:42:20 manu: There is no reason to exclude anyone from a discussion about how we're going to do the work. 15:42:27 It was proposed we do this in a CG. 15:42:31 Anyone can join a CG 15:43:08 ... These are just open meetings. We will take minutes and recording minutes. 15:43:37 ... making it a member only discussion has been rejectd. 15:43:54 ... Input to date has been to create an open forum. 15:44:20 ... Setting up a new community group takes some effort. 15:45:13 DavidE: So two options - Have iG run the work, create a new CG 15:45:27 DavidE: Have a call on Tuesday a 11am - anyone from anywhere can join that call. 15:45:44 manu: Yes, no need to create a CG or anything, just set a a time to meet. 15:45:51 Manu: Yes, let's just set a time and meet - no IPR necessary. 15:46:06 q+ to ask if the wicg could be a backup location to have the discussion 15:46:11 DavidE: I don't see a way to change IPR rules - third rail. I need to go back and read IG IPR again 15:46:13 q- manu 15:46:29 DavidE: If we find something that creates friction w/ IPR - then we have an issue. 15:46:40 DavidE: We don't want to get all the lawyers involved around IPR issues. 15:46:43 ack ShaneM 15:46:43 ShaneM, you wanted to ask if the wicg could be a backup location to have the discussion 15:47:27 ShaneM: I understand and agree - if there are IPR issues to waive - if we can't do this in Credentials CG - what about WICG. 15:47:37 manu: the WICG is browser tech. 15:47:48 ... this is not a browser tech discussion. 15:48:13 ... the other issue is the overhead involved in joining the group etc. 15:48:25 ... the IPR thing is a farce which does not come into play. 15:48:46 ... This group we're talking about is not going to generate any documents that require sign-off. 15:48:52 It might create use cases. 15:49:25 ... We can have people join the Credentials CG as required to address IPR concerns. 15:49:52 ... The objection to reusing the credential CG is that it's not a neutral space. 15:50:10 q? 15:50:18 ... Anyone who asserts that it is not a neutral space should express their concerns. 15:51:05 DavidE: What would be the ideal way we go about this? 15:51:21 manu: I think the ideal is to resuse the credential CG. 15:51:54 chaals has joined #wpay 15:52:10 ... we need to convince people who feel the group is non-neutral is willing to setup meetings focused on listening to those who feel the group is not a neutral space. 15:52:27 ... Use the credential CG and an IPR agreement. 15:52:28 AdrianHB has joined #wpay 15:53:07 DavidE: What about logistics of writing the charter? 15:53:13 Manu: The IG can do that work. 15:53:38 DavidE: Trying to figure out how this applies to Interledger - continue to have discussion out there - Task Force in IG that puts together charter. 15:54:11 manu: I think they are in the same position that the credentials work is in, but they are atleast 1 year away from creating a charter. 15:54:59 ... the flow from community group to a working group is not well mapped. 15:57:01 ... the CG's start out as being neutral, they come to consensus about what should happen, then they are disregarded and a new group is formed. 15:57:24 q+ to mention that I assume there is no way to have a joint task force between a CG and an IG 15:57:32 It sets the community groups up for failure. 15:58:35 DavidE: I think this is an AC problem. I think you are chairing two large CGs that have come up with something and you're frustrated by the transition process. 15:59:16 DavidE: I want to make sure we come away with a way forward on Monday. We have two choices - we lead the CG and charge, but formulate a task force in IG to begin work on charter, which will take input from CG. 16:00:13 DavidE: Other possibilities, we create a new Task force and have calls where we can invite other people in. I think both are reasonable. We don't need to kill ourselves over the discussion. 16:00:33 DavidE: Let me try to socialize this. 16:01:51 ack ShaneM 16:01:51 ShaneM, you wanted to mention that I assume there is no way to have a joint task force between a CG and an IG 16:02:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:02:54 rrsagent, make minutes public 16:02:54 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', manu. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:02:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:03:22 rrsagent, set log public 16:03:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:03:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:03:35 chair: N/A 16:03:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:03:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:04:23 s/we lead the CG/we leave the CG/ 16:04:30 rrsagent, make minutes 16:04:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html dezell 16:05:42 s/CG and charge/CG in charge/ 16:05:48 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html dezell 16:06:21 zakim, bye 16:06:22 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ShaneM, burdges, Manu, MattC 16:06:22 Zakim has left #wpay 16:06:25 rrsagent, bye 16:06:25 I see no action items 16:11:10 RRSAgent has joined #wpay 16:11:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-irc 16:11:23 rrsagent, make logs public 16:11:27 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:11:48 s/Web Payments IG Meeting/Web Payments IG Meeting (unofficial teleconference)/ 16:11:55 Present+ davidEzell 16:12:05 s/hello// 16:12:08 s/Hello// 16:12:18 s/inria.fr/inria/ 16:12:28 s/only just getting up to speed with the group// 16:13:12 s/@@@/We have three proposals on the table 1) Create a new CG to have the discussion, 2) Create a task force in the IG to have the discussion, 3) Re-use the Credentials CG and have the discussion there. 16:14:13 s/@@@@/1) There is strong push back against creating a new CG that effectively does the same thing as the Credentials CG, 2) IPR issues w/ the IG, and 3) The 'non-neutral' assertion around the Credentials CG. 16:14:25 s/@@@@/1) There is strong push back against creating a new CG that effectively does the same thing as the Credentials CG, 2) IPR issues w\/ the IG, and 3) The 'non-neutral' assertion around the Credentials CG./ 16:14:30 rrsagent, make minutes 16:14:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:15:25 s/@@@/We have three proposals on the table 1) Create a new CG to have the discussion, 2) Create a task force in the IG to have the discussion, 3) Re-use the Credentials CG and have the discussion there. 16:15:52 s/@We have three proposals on the table 1) Create a new CG to have the discussion, 2) Create a task force in the IG to have the discussion, 3) Re-use the Credentials CG and have the discussion there.//1) There is strong push back against creating a new CG that effectively does the same thing as the Credentials CG, 2) IPR issues w\/ the IG, and 3) The 'non-neutral' assertion around the Credentials CG./ 16:15:54 rrsagent, make minutes 16:15:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:17:08 i/I think there is concern/We have three proposals on the table 1) Create a new CG to have the discussion, 2) Create a task force in the IG to have the discussion, 3) Re-use the Credentials CG and have the discussion there./ 16:17:09 rrsagent, make minutes 16:17:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:18:10 i/I think next week might/So, the problem is 1) There is strong push back against creating a new CG that effectively does the same thing as the Credentials CG, 2) IPR issues w\/ the IG, and 3) The 'non-neutral' assertion around the Credentials CG./ 16:18:24 s/So, the problem is @We/We/ 16:18:28 rrsagent, make minutes 16:18:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-wpay-minutes.html manu 17:29:27 chaals has joined #wpay 18:16:27 dbaron has joined #wpay 19:22:21 shepazu_ has joined #wpay 20:30:08 DJackson has joined #wpay