15:52:41 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 15:52:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-mobile-a11y-irc 15:52:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:52:43 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 15:52:45 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 15:52:45 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:52:46 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:52:46 Date: 12 November 2015 15:52:59 agenda? 15:53:41 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 15:55:04 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:55:16 present+ Kathy 15:55:48 Agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/ and survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/10-21-2015-Survey/ 15:55:49 Agenda+ Continuation of the Discussion of Touch Proposal: http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:55:51 Agenda+ Face to Face meeting next year - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGF2F/ 15:56:07 present+ Kim 15:58:44 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 16:02:46 Alistair has joined #mobile-a11y 16:02:53 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 16:03:04 present+jon_avila 16:03:23 present+ 16:03:29 zakim, list attendees 16:03:29 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, Kim, jon_avila, Alistair 16:03:39 Jan has joined #mobile-a11y 16:03:43 David has joined #mobile-a11y 16:03:57 http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-navigation 16:04:00 present+ marcjohlic 16:04:10 Present +1 16:04:56 Kathy: I updated github, working on guideline 2.5, 2.5.1 breakthrough on last call 16:05:08 Kathy: key is that we added it remapped the touch gestures 16:05:43 Kathy: two potential techniques – using standard One Touch controls, providing touch access for custom controls, and two failures. That's where we left off. 16:05:57 Kathy: any questions or comments on that or concerns with that direction 16:06:15 David: we'll probably need to define system assistive technology at some point 16:07:40 Kathy: one of the things we did in the last call is we took out the pointer, but when I was updating the draft – in the guideline we have touch and pointer, but nothing else that talks about pointer – should we change the guideline to be just touch 16:08:05 David: I'd leave that decision for later – just leave it in and put it in that if we don't have anything that applies 16:08:32 Jan: I like the word pointer in there 16:08:49 Kathy: as we go through this we may want to think a little bit about where pointer fits in and what we want to do 16:08:56 Kathy: last thoughts on 2.5.1 before we move onto the next one 16:10:39 Jan: Intel used a system with a front facing camera to watch where your head was moving and you could use that as a head mouse – mouse interface always in android, been added to Windows, blackberry has it. Head mouse could be a new assistive technology 16:11:11 Jan: missed spot in okay to – nondisabled people the only ones using a mouse so were not going to talk about it at all, but there are plenty of people using mouse emulators and they really appreciate an interface where things are easy to get to with the mouse 16:11:21 Kathy: has anyone played around with a Bluetooth mouse on android? 16:12:29 Kathy: do we want to change 2.5.1 at all – we took out pointer, do we need to put it back in 16:12:53 David: I almost want to say touch/pointer 16:12:59 Kathy: but Poynter doesn't remap touch gestures 16:13:51 Kathy: any discussions about mouse in WCAG 16:14:34 David: one things that circumvented was mouse keys and we didn't identify barriers at the time. In 10 years I don't remember any email that we got from anybody who had a problem with the mouse and needed some kind of success criteria to deal with it – reluctance to put something in for something that didn't appear to be a barrier 16:14:47 Kathy: but that's change now with the new technology Jan was talking about 16:15:17 David: there could be some dumb thing and authors doing that's preventing the mouse from working properly with an assistive emulator, but I haven't heard of any 16:15:41 Jan: I have a contact who works with a lot of people in that situation who work with head mice – I will talk to them and see if I can get some use cases 16:15:50 David: asked them also about the prevalence of using mouse keys 16:16:19 +1 to Kim 16:18:07 Kim: speech input mouse emulators are generally very bad. very slow and not practical. I'm wondering how fast other emulators are. 16:18:50 David: Patrick had a whole list of JavaScript calls that touch was activating – want to understand that 16:19:14 JR: Quick test of TalkBack with mouse...works with one click to focus items (TB reads), then double click to activate. 16:19:28 http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/#mobile-tablet-touchscreen-events 16:19:32 Topic: 2.5.2 16:19:52 Kathy: we may want to use the same technology here – change to system 16:20:23 David: what Jan calls a reverse trap – you can't close it 16:20:33 Kathy: on-screen keyboard is often a problem – you can't close it 16:20:56 Kathy: if we were going to add in the reverse to that what would we do. It's also very long can we simplify to make it shorter 16:21:30 Kathy: no comments in the survey 16:22:12 Jon: we are thinking swipe gestures because that's what everybody's using right now, but potentially – explore by touch I have a similar problem. I wish we could generalize it beyond swipe gestures 16:22:29 JR: CORRECTION: With Talkback on, Mouseover puts on TB focus, single mouse click (on the item) activates (and TB swipe gestures don't work). So not really useful for blind user, but could be helpful for a person needing literacy support. 16:23:37 Jon: an iOS there is a direct touch – you can do a signature. Go directly to app instead of to voiceover. I could imagine in that situation to get out of that you would have to touch somewhere else on the screen and not within that touch area. This is not web-based but I imagine that at some point that ability would be available through the web as well 16:24:06 David: it's not like what we had in the old days of the keyboard trap. In this situation where you are on a mobile device you kind of know where you are when you touch on something – is it a problem? 16:24:24 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 16:25:10 Jon: if it happened all the time it would be but if it happened occasionally then maybe it's acceptable. Not permissible if every control had that problem, would make it difficult to use. This relates to a point it brought up in the survey – swipe navigation can be different than Explorer by touch. Might be in a swipe order but might not be detectable by exploration 16:25:17 David: that may be a failure 16:25:29 David: I would say that that equally punishes everybody because nobody's gonna see it 16:25:55 Jon: I'm thinking of a case where there is a checkbox… 16:27:06 Jon: physical checkboxe is on screen so can see it but can't swipe to it 16:27:21 Hi, I've just joined. 16:27:33 David: it's in this way border but it's not in the touch order. If it's visible on the screen, are you saying that maybe the screen reader can hear it even if you put your focus on it 16:28:01 Jon: on-screen just a span that takes the touch events but does not handle the keyboard accessibility, that's handled by the child element which is offscreen. Commonly used in custom controls 16:28:03 \me Detlev we are discussing 2.5.2 http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-navigation 16:28:14 Cheers! 16:28:16 David: can't a person using voiceover touch on that physical element, just as a sighted person would and they would hear it spoken when they touch it 16:28:51 Jon: in theory because it's not accessible – doesn't have a name. If you add that then you have duplicate. Generally it's not seen by the technology the way it's coded. This is an author issue 16:29:22 Jon: I can send an example. I thought it was related. 16:30:58 Alastair: focus appeared over the top of the URL and as soon as someone double tapped on it picked up the underlying browser functionality rather than the page functionality. Appears where you have a scrollable div through CSS. Voiceover goes underneath to where it believes that content should be 16:31:10 David: the new quick ref is actually using that exact technology 16:31:29 David: Divs that are scrollable. 16:31:42 Alastair: if you do explore by touch you are nowhere near what you think you are near 16:31:44 check this 16:31:47 http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/ 16:32:21 infinite scroll on Iconic framework doesn't 16:32:27 Marc: how is this different from those new widgets that do the infinite scroll that you can't get to work – gray area between where it's a swipe trap 16:33:20 Kathy: does pass-through gesture work 16:33:21 David: pass-through gesture is really broken 16:33:54 Kathy: capture what we are talking about – even rough success criteria around that, it's related to this but it doesn't exactly fit in here 16:34:34 David: using the same language as 2.5.1, touch events that are discoverable that can be activated by voice over are in the position that they were previously – something like that 16:34:37 Touch events that are discoverable and activated by touch are in same position 16:35:10 Detlev: cognitively you have an idea of where something is on the page, but in reality it's different 16:35:28 Detlev: we need a simplified example set up to look at 16:35:42 Touch events that are discoverable and activated by touch are in same position on the screen. 16:35:49 Kathy: Jon has some examples 16:36:46 Alastair: that's what I'm finding hardest about mobile navigation with voiceover and talkback – you are taken to a distant place a lot than where you expect to be. It must be incredibly difficult if that's your only mechanism to navigate 16:37:04 Touch events that are discoverable and activated by touch remain in a logical position on the screen. 16:37:09 Detlev: touch events apply to actionable elements, swipe go to content all continent text content and so on so we are dealing with two different things 16:37:28 Alastair: in my case you put your finger on it and it disconnected from the whole page and went into the phone which was even more annoying 16:37:42 David: can you grab that code and throw up an example 16:37:58 alan has joined #mobile-a11y 16:37:58 Alastair: I'll try 16:38:29 David: logical is difficult language 16:38:42 David: logical is same order on the page 16:38:57 Jon: meaningful sequence 16:39:18 Detlev: meaningful sequence applies to all elements including text which is not actionable – we need to keep those separate I think 16:39:46 Alastair: it's when you're going down swipe swipe swipe through voiceover, for example you want it to be predictable by the user. It's not very testable however 16:40:31 Alan: view controllers just aren't done right so hidden content is actually being selected – is that the problem? 16:40:33 Kathy: no 16:42:12 Alastair: problem: phone, voiceover, Safari terms and conditions webpage like a banking website. Box was terms and conditions, scrollable div, checks boxes. You go into it, voiceover didn't read out because it was taking directive but that doesn't matter.. Swipe swipe swipe enter scrollable div. The official focus and focus for voiceover continues down the page out of the box – right down... 16:42:14 ...the page. Then when you try and get to the checkboxes, focus reengage at the top of the screen at URL and so double tap engaged URL box rather than the web content 16:42:38 David: CSS nonmodal dialog box, didn't put focus in dialog box… 16:42:40 Alastair: not dialog box, just scrollable div 16:43:44 Alastair: because trying to find checkboxes, focus got kicked back to the top of the page. Double tap disastrous result 16:43:45 Detlev: did the checkboxes come after the div? 16:43:47 Alastair: yes 16:44:03 David: textbook example of failure 16:44:34 Alastair: I will try and get one 16:44:54 David: what about touch events that are visually present on the screen are programmatically on the screen also 16:45:03 Kathy: I think people will say what you're talking about? 16:45:29 Kathy: let's come back to it 16:45:58 Kathy: in the last 10 minutes that we have I would like to take a look at 2.5.2, no swipe traps, see if we can do adjustments and put techniques or failures for this 16:47:36 Alastair: banking websites – putting a number where it sends you from one box to the next, depending on how they do that and how the focus shifts, in effect the focus may stay with one of those boxes instead – I'll check that 16:48:31 Kathy: I've had situations where you can't touch and you can't swipe out of something and those have been more on the app side than the web side 16:49:22 Detlev: ARIA hidden equals true, could that be situation where you are stuck on that, some overlay which doesn't get any touch pass through and you are stuck with that element and you can't close that box for example 16:49:41 Detlev: pop-up which has a close button or that button doesn't work – trying to think of some situation where you just couldn't get out of it by swiping 16:49:58 Detlev: is that covered already 2.1.2 16:50:31 Alastair: focus past the close button, go down to the bottom of the page and don't know ultimately rather they would return, because when you go down to the bottom of the page you would expect to find those things. 16:50:39 Detlev: get lost in the page background which might not be visible? 16:51:17 Alastair: window pops up, take and pass that and when they do swipe swipe swipe in mobile they are not able to explore the content on the page because it's covered and they are not able to get to the close button 16:51:42 Detlev: you aren't stuck but you don't know to get back to the swipe button so it's different 16:52:02 Alastair: the question is whether they take the entire page 16:52:29 Alastair: we could look around for next week for decent examples. 16:52:51 Kathy: a good take away for this week – we need to think about areas where we need to address this – better to come up with techniques and failures 16:52:53 Modal example with aria-hidden for page background: http://www.3needs.org/en/testing/code/role-dialog-3.html 16:53:10 Detlev: put examples needed in meeting request? 16:53:39 Topic: face-to-face meeting 16:53:39 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGF2F/ 16:54:40 Kathy: face-to-face meeting will be in conjunction with the task forces. I think it's important that we get together and talk about what's going on in each of the different extensions – potential conflicts, crossover, things that may not coexist together with another extension. And so were looking at doing a face-to-face. There's a survey I put in the agenda if you can go in and take that... 16:54:42 ...survey so that we know what conferences might work or other suggestions – we will look at that and try to get a face-to-face together with everybody 16:54:55 Kathy: when option is CSUN 16:55:19 Kathy: same survey as WCAG 16:55:25 That is one option is CSUM 16:55:30 CSUN 16:55:49 Kathy: Another good option is TPAC 16:57:30 Kathy: we are going to continue trying to get the touch guideline success criteria and techniques and failures defined next week. If you have examples for any of the ones in the guideline feel free to send those around to the group. 16:58:10 I will not be available next week. 16:58:17 Kathy: I'll be at the Accessing higher ground conference next week, Kim will be here. We won't have a meeting on the 26 for Thanksgiving 17:04:05 zakim, list participants 17:04:05 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, Kim, jon_avila, Alistair, marcjohlic 17:04:24 rrsagent, make minutes 17:04:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:05:36 present+ Jan 17:05:51 present+ Detlev 17:06:06 present+ David 17:06:22 rrsagent, make minutes 17:06:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:08:02 Regrets+ Henny 17:55:59 Jan has joined #mobile-a11y 18:34:27 rrsagent, bye 18:34:27 I see no action items