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00:03:07 <joesteele> chair: paulc
00:03:08 <paulc> See https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#MSE
00:03:12 <joesteele> scribe: joesteele
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00:03:18 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
00:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:05:00 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #html-media
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00:05:14 <markw> present+ markw
00:05:44 <joesteele> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME
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00:05:50 <joesteele> present+ joesteele
00:05:52 <MattWolenetz> not eme, mse
00:05:53 <jdsmith> present+ jdsmith
00:05:54 <joesteele> present+ paulc
00:06:03 <giuseppe> present+ giuseppe
00:06:06 <joesteele> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#MSE
00:06:09 <joesteele> doh!
00:06:20 <joesteele> paulc: intros — working on MSE today
00:06:35 <joesteele> … HTML-WG is chartered until this weekend
00:06:40 <joesteele> … will discuss more in a bit
00:06:51 <YusukeN> YusukeN has joined #html-media
00:06:51 <joesteele> … most deliverables of this WG are completed or are in the process
00:07:07 <joesteele> … approval is immanent
00:07:18 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-media
00:07:19 <joesteele> … with the exception of the Media Task Force work
00:07:22 <Bill> Bill has joined #html-media
00:07:32 <joesteele> … this meeting is for the Media TF discussion
00:07:38 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
00:07:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:08:10 <joesteele> paulc: I have ordered this agenda in a reaosnable fashion
00:08:26 <hjlee> hjlee has joined #html-media
00:08:45 <joesteele> … PLH will be talking to us about the status of the WG
00:08:55 <joesteele> … item #3 is about how to re-publish MSE
00:09:13 <joesteele> … then move into tehcnical material — two issues and are in github
00:09:18 <joesteele> … agenda has the links
00:09:30 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
00:09:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:09:49 <joesteele> paulc: wante dto cover the normative reference issues
00:10:00 <joesteele> … then we move into the more tehcnical outstanding issues
00:10:09 <joesteele> … series of related issues that Jerry has been looking at
00:10:26 <joesteele> … item#6 on the agenda is 9 sep issues that the editors and I decided need more disucssion
00:10:35 <joesteele> … many have been advanced in the last 72 hours
00:10:48 <timeless> timeless has joined #html-media
00:10:49 <joesteele> paulc: if we get down to item 6.9 we will declare victory
00:10:52 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:10:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:11:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
00:11:07 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:11:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:11:20 <joesteele> paulc: item 7 are 3 issues proposed by the editors to be in V.Next
00:11:34 <joesteele> … Matt  sent out an update earlier on the test suite status
00:11:52 <joesteele> … Ross sent out an update on ACTION 84 a couple of days ago
00:11:55 <timeless> meeting: HTML Media F2F
00:12:11 <timeless> s/doh!//
00:12:23 <joesteele> … last item is the status of “to be implemented"
00:12:39 <joesteele> … does anyone have suggestions for changing the order?
00:12:55 <joesteele> MattWolentz: looks good to me
00:13:00 <timeless> s/agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME//
00:13:18 <timeless> s/…/.../G
00:13:21 <joesteele> paulc: if I can confirm the issue are right — will ask the editors to just give the current status
00:13:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:13:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:13:52 <joesteele> MattWolentz: should move the WG stuff to the top of the agenda? Dave Dorwin would liek to be in on that
00:14:01 <timeless> s|agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME||
00:14:06 <timeless> s|s/agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME//||
00:14:07 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:14:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:14:08 <joesteele> paulc: we arranged to do that early in the agend so Chris Wilson can be here for that
00:14:17 <MarkVickers> MarkVickers has joined #html-media
00:14:19 <joesteele> s/agend/agenda/
00:14:23 <timeless> s/not eme, mse//
00:14:27 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:14:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:14:39 <joesteele> paulc: let’s do intros
00:14:47 <timeless> s|s///||
00:15:11 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:15:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:15:23 <joesteele> paulc: let’s get going
00:15:32 <timeless> scribe: timeless
00:15:40 <timeless> topic: HTML WG and Timed Media Charter Status
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00:15:55 <timeless> plh: at the entrance it says HTML WG
00:16:01 <timeless> ... but we're not supposed to talk about HTML in this room
00:16:02 <olivier> olivier has joined #html-media
00:16:08 <timeless> ... this room is about XXX and EME
00:16:17 <timeless> ... don't worry about that, i'll take care of it next week
00:16:25 <timeless> ... when we talked about the future of the HTML WG and WebApps WG
00:16:33 <timeless> ... we thought there was a lot of synergy between the two
00:16:38 <joesteele> s/wante dto/wanted to/
00:16:42 <timeless> ... the work between HTML and markup is narrower
00:16:43 <paulc> s/XXX/MSE/
00:16:50 <timeless> ... merging the two groups would create a Super Super WG
00:16:54 <joesteele> s/tehcnical/technical/
00:16:56 <timeless> ... originally we wanted 4 groups
00:17:03 <timeless> ... one was Media
00:17:03 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-media
00:17:07 <joesteele> s/disucssion/discussion/
00:17:07 <timeless> ... we thought that was logical
00:17:11 <timeless> ... it would cover MSE, EME
00:17:17 <timeless> ... and how do we do "media on the web"
00:17:30 <timeless> ... many doing media, DAP, WebRTC, EME, MSE, ...
00:17:47 <timeless> ZZZ: we can't hear you well on the bridge, there's an echo
00:17:52 <timeless> plh: I thought I could exercise
00:18:01 <timeless> ... we have lots of groups working on Audio/Video APIs
00:18:06 <timeless> ... no one looking at the bigger picture
00:18:14 <timeless> ... do their apis make sense when you put them together
00:18:21 <timeless> ... Web Audio WG and WebRTC WG as well
00:18:31 <timeless> ... we thought that would be a great opportunity for a group to look at those questions
00:18:41 <timeless> ... and ultimately be responsible for the core part of the media stack
00:18:41 <joesteele> s/MattWolentz/MattWolenetz/
00:19:00 <timeless> ... even though we didn't want to touch Web Audio / WebRTC before they were done w/ that
00:19:02 <joesteele> s/ZZZ/MattWolenetz/
00:19:07 <timeless> ... we decided we need more time to think about that
00:19:15 <timeless> ... so we decided to create WebPlatform for a year
00:19:22 <timeless> ... we knew we could do Timed Media WG
00:19:26 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:19:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:19:29 <timeless> ... that's how that charter came up to be
00:19:43 <timeless> ... during AC Review, there were concerns about whether it was useful to have a separate WG
00:19:49 <timeless> ... why not just put it in Web Platform instead?
00:20:01 <timeless> ... and we know we need to work on Core Media, and we don't know how to work on that
00:20:05 <timeless> ... we have a Problem, but no Solution
00:20:07 <shoko> shoko has joined #html-media
00:20:09 <paulc> Draft (not approved) Timed Media WG charter: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/timed-media-wg.html
00:20:10 <timeless> ... too early to create charter
00:20:16 <timeless> ... that's why it isn't launched yet
00:20:19 <timeless> ... we needed more time
00:20:28 <timeless> ... problem w/ AC Review (of Timed Media)
00:20:36 <timeless> ... we knew we had a lot of support -- except two
00:20:51 <timeless> ... we didn't know how many Members would support EME/MSE in Web Platform
00:21:05 <timeless> ... we didn't know if we would have support for putting it into Timed Media WG
00:21:13 <timeless> ... if we can't split work on Media out of Web Platform WG
00:21:19 <timeless> ... then we'd never be able to split anything
00:21:29 <timeless> ... and we'd be stuck w/ a giant for a long time
00:21:34 <timeless> ... admitting failure, a year in advance
00:21:53 <timeless> ... then there's the question: are the companies working on EME/MSE willing to join the Web Platform WG
00:22:09 <timeless> ... I need to understand the answers to those questions to be able to choose a path forward
00:22:13 <timeless> ... there were four paths
00:22:16 <joesteele> s/reaosnable/reasonable/
00:22:32 <timeless> ... Director could simply approve Timed Media Charter submitted to AC in July
00:22:39 <timeless> ... second: create group for just EME/MSE
00:22:41 <joesteele> s/tehcnical/technical/
00:22:46 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:22:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:22:48 <timeless> ... don't need additional scope
00:22:59 <timeless> ... just need Charter around the TF
00:23:11 <timeless> ... third: need a group w/ a larger charter to include MSE/EME
00:23:14 <paulc> Alternatives:
00:23:14 <joesteele> s/liek/like/
00:23:18 <timeless> ... need new charter
00:23:25 <timeless> ... fourth: why another WG, just fold into Web Platform
00:23:25 <paulc> 1. Charter the Timed Media WG as proposed
00:23:34 <timeless> ... w/ risk that some won't be able/willing to joins
00:23:35 <paulc> 2. Charter a new WG for just MSE/EME
00:23:44 <timeless> ... and thus we'd have lawyer warnings and lose patent access
00:23:50 <paulc> 3. Fold MSE/EME deliverables into the WebApps WG
00:23:53 <timeless> ... I don't expect you to answer those questions
00:24:02 <timeless> ... s/Director/first: Director
00:24:07 <ama> ama has joined #html-media
00:24:15 <paulc> s/Webapps WG/Web Platform WG/
00:24:24 <timeless> s/3/4
00:24:34 <paulc> 4. Make changes to the Timed Media WG given AC input
00:24:36 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:24:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:24:38 <paulc> q+
00:24:39 <timeless> s/4/3
00:24:45 <timeless> q?
00:24:47 <timeless> ack paulc
00:24:48 <cwilso> q+
00:24:50 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-media
00:25:09 <timeless> paulc: plh, "2"; is a variation of "2" to keep the HTML WG around?
00:25:15 <timeless> plh: yes, although i'd propose we rename it
00:25:18 <timeless> ... that's basically
00:25:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-media
00:25:25 <timeless> paulc: that's effectively what you've done until Halloween
00:25:25 <cwilso> q+
00:25:28 <timeless> ... ok
00:25:30 <timeless> ack cwilso
00:25:45 <timeless> cwilso: MattWolenetz, i'll try to speak up
00:25:53 <timeless> ... Chris Wilson, Google
00:26:07 <timeless> ... we were one of the Members who objected to the proposed Timed Media WG Charter
00:26:19 <timeless> ... early on in this process, I had said it might make sense to split Media out into a WG
00:26:27 <timeless> ... reasons we objected for splitting out was twofold
00:26:40 <timeless> ... one was to have a WG wrapping all around Timed Media
00:26:51 <timeless> ... low level, EME/MSE, Web Audio, Timed Media
00:27:01 <timeless> ... as an editor of Web Audio, we have a lot of interaction w/ WebRTC
00:27:25 <timeless> ... we'd need to take on specific deliverables to the web platform
00:27:30 <timeless> ... I don't want to lose momentum
00:27:37 <timeless> ... I don't want to create WGs for narrow specifications
00:27:46 <timeless> ... that model was painful, very narrow set of participants
00:27:55 <hax> hax has joined #html-media
00:27:57 <timeless> ... i'd rather convince Members to join a large group, e.g. Web Platform
00:28:08 <timeless> ... other piece is: really understanding who'd chair
00:28:12 <timeless> ... what participation would be
00:28:21 <timeless> ... just working on ...
00:28:25 <timeless> ... EME/MSE
00:28:30 <timeless> ... really good things, but...
00:28:31 <cwilso> q?
00:28:46 <timeless> paulc: let's make sure we have everyone on same page
00:28:53 <timeless> ... I'm displaying the proposed Timed Media WG charter
00:28:58 <timeless> ... cwilso referred to deliverables
00:29:05 <timeless> ... MSE, EME, low level audio
00:29:22 <timeless> ... attempt to meet cwilso 's goals is in the third item here: "low level audio and video support"
00:29:34 <timeless> ... also, proposed HTMLMediaElement errata/new additions
00:29:56 <markw> q+
00:29:56 <timeless> ... connundrum: if we don't have a group like this, then we wouldn't have anyone trying to do a module outside of WebPlatform WG
00:30:05 <timeless> ... cwilso is right, main items are MSE/EME
00:30:20 <timeless> ... specifying maintenance was an attempt to assign the proposed WG a specific part of HTML5
00:30:30 <timeless> ... partially as an experiment to see if it was possible to pull it out
00:30:39 <timeless> ... and have it done by a concentrated group of people interested in media
00:30:53 <timeless> ... useful to hear if people here have a preference in W3 on the four options
00:31:05 <timeless> ... as plh noted, you don't have to express your company opinion
00:31:15 <cwilso> q+ to address <audio>/<video> breakout, but would like to hear others first
00:31:15 <timeless> ... but anything would be helpful
00:31:21 <timeless> markw: Mark Watson, Netflix
00:31:29 <timeless> ... makes sense to bring together work that's going on
00:31:35 <timeless> ... it does seem fragmented
00:31:42 <timeless> ... EME, MSE, <media>, web audio ...
00:31:49 <timeless> ... I suspect it's been done quite fragmented
00:31:55 <timeless> ... could benefit from consolidation
00:32:00 <timeless> ... OTOH, we have a lot of momentum
00:32:11 <timeless> ... big concern is if we make large changes, what impact does that have
00:32:21 <timeless> ... bringing in large number of others could hinder this
00:32:36 <timeless> ... wonder if there's a longer term goal to bring this together
00:32:46 <timeless> ... but shorter term, we could bring EME/MSE to milestones
00:32:48 <timeless> plh: thank you
00:32:58 <timeless> ack markw
00:33:09 <timeless> MarkVickers: like what markw was saying
00:33:16 <timeless> ... least interruption to the current work
00:33:30 <timeless> ... least disruptive thing would be keep it in this HTML WG, renamed or not
00:33:37 <timeless> ... then you don't have to go ask for legal permission
00:33:42 <gurupanguji> gurupanguji has joined #html-media
00:33:44 <timeless> ... no interruption, no need to change membership
00:33:52 <timeless> ... put time to think about it, not in a rush
00:33:54 <timeless> ack cwilso
00:33:54 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to address <audio>/<video> breakout, but would like to hear others first
00:34:00 <paulc> ack markw
00:34:03 <timeless> cwilso: option 5, keep HTML WG alive
00:34:09 <timeless> ... probably difficult to explain to members
00:34:14 <timeless> ... a cheap version of option 3
00:34:14 <wdh> wdh has joined #html-media
00:34:28 <timeless> ... "need separate group", "keep same name", avoid new charter
00:34:39 <timeless> ... next least is moving it into WebPlatform to stamp REC
00:34:49 <yubo> yubo has joined #html-media
00:35:09 <timeless> ... what markw said about pulling <audio>+<video>
00:35:18 <timeless> ... if we had a Media WG focused on the stack
00:35:33 <timeless> ... they absolutely should own the HTML <audio>+<video> elements and pulling it from the spec
00:35:38 <timeless> ... we don't have Codec APIs for audio
00:35:46 <timeless> ... they way we declare them today is totally circular
00:35:53 <timeless> ... Web Audio says "use whatever we have for audio"
00:36:00 <timeless> ... you can't build <audio> on top of that
00:36:08 <timeless> ... I don't see the impetus for people getting together to do that
00:36:33 <timeless> ... charter we proposed "we should have this great grand deliverables; hey we have these two actual deliverables, we sure hope people could do those other things"
00:36:48 <timeless> ... if we want to address the grand thing, people committed to putting resources to that
00:36:57 <timeless> ... i'm happy to bang that drum at google
00:37:07 <timeless> ... we don't want to modernize video, but i'd like to explain it properly
00:37:14 <timeless> ... explain how you get access to audio/video devices
00:37:18 <timeless> ... how you get codec access
00:37:22 <timeless> ... how you play to speakers
00:37:26 <timeless> ... totally uncovered today
00:37:32 <timeless> paulc: anyone else?
00:37:40 <timeless> [ None ]
00:37:55 <timeless> paulc: plh, we turn into a Pumpkin on Halloween?
00:37:57 <timeless> plh: yes
00:38:16 <plh> s/yes/yes :)/
00:38:17 <timeless> topic: MSE heartbeat Publication
00:38:30 <timeless> paulc: I'm displaying an email from August
00:38:42 <timeless> ... asking editors to get MSE and EME back on the TR page
00:38:50 <timeless> ... w/ EME we turned on the automatic publishing system
00:38:59 <timeless> ... everytime editors publish an ED.
00:39:08 <timeless> ... the revised update turns up on the TR page overnight
00:39:13 <timeless> ... we seem to be languishing w/ MSE
00:39:29 <timeless> ... in the back of my mind, I thought it was a format issue blocking MSE from automatic pub
00:39:37 <timeless> ... plh: do you remember what the issue is?
00:39:45 <timeless> plh: you talk to me, but i don't know, keep poking me
00:39:50 <timeless> paulc: enchinda process
00:39:57 <timeless> ... does the document have to be in ReSpec?
00:40:07 <timeless> plh: no, it doesn't have to, but it's easier if it is
00:40:19 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz and jdsmith
00:40:32 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:40:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
00:40:41 <timeless> ... I think we need to put one of you on point to give us a heartbeat pub of MSE, or turn it on
00:40:49 <timeless> jdsmith: i don't object to automatic publishing
00:40:57 <timeless> ... i thought we had internal disagreement about doing it
00:41:15 <timeless> MattWolenetz: i think the concern I had was that there might be an incompatibility in TR pages
00:41:20 <timeless> ... how can i check?
00:41:27 <timeless> plh: i'll have to look
00:41:29 <MattWolenetz> s/TR pages/CR phase
00:41:34 <timeless> ... my hope is that I could
00:41:47 <timeless> paulc: problem w/ old CR process?
00:41:57 <timeless> plh: you can't do auto-pub w/ the old CR process
00:42:02 <timeless> paulc: MattWolenetz thanks for the questio
00:42:05 <timeless> s/io/ion
00:42:23 <timeless> ... we CANNOT switch to auto-publication while we're in CR
00:42:31 <timeless> i/we/Topic: Why MSE can not switch to auto-publish
00:42:32 <plh> the new publication system doesn't support CR yet :(
00:42:45 <timeless> paulc: suggest that editors come back in 10 days w/ when to do a heartbeat
00:42:57 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz don't want you to commit to it now, when we want to do technical work first
00:43:02 <timeless> MattWolenetz: great
00:43:41 <timeless> action jdsmith to publish heartbeat by Nov 15 for MSE
00:43:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-98 - Publish heartbeat by nov 15 for mse [on Jerry Smith - due 2015-11-05].
00:43:48 <timeless> s/action/ACTION
00:44:32 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:44:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
00:44:50 <joesteele> ACTION-98 due 2015-11-15
00:44:50 <trackbot> Set ACTION-98 Publish heartbeat by nov 15 for mse due date to 2015-11-15.
00:45:02 <timeless> topic: Issues about normative references
00:45:09 <timeless> paulc: I'll bring up the issue
00:45:27 <timeless> s|s/agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME//||
00:45:40 <timeless> jdsmith: we use createObjectURL to create a non-auto-revoking URL
00:45:44 <timeless> ... no longer supported in File API
00:45:54 <timeless> ... I think auto-revoking is no longer suported
00:46:08 <timeless> ... could move to createFor which does support
00:46:13 <timeless> s/non-/
00:46:30 <timeless> MattWolenetz: if we switch it to not-auto-revoke, would that break applications?
00:47:02 <timeless> Josh_Soref: i'm assuming it means leaks
00:47:30 <timeless> ... for anything that stays around for a long time
00:47:34 <timeless> paulc: what's the action here?
00:47:47 <timeless> jdsmith: to retain auto revoke, we use FileAPI .createFor
00:47:52 <timeless> ... I think that's the conservative posture
00:47:57 <timeless> ... it's a breaking change
00:48:04 <timeless> paulc: first technical issue
00:48:11 <timeless> ... not going to worry ...
00:48:20 <timeless> ... let me explain why breaking changes are in issue
00:48:29 <timeless> ... we're in CR, if you are in CR, and you make a breaking change
00:48:35 <timeless> ... then you should leave CR and reenter
00:48:46 <timeless> ... to bring it to attention to implementers that they're likely broken
00:48:52 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz do you have a keyboard?
00:48:53 <timeless> MattWolenetz: yes
00:49:07 <timeless> paulc: could you type in your understanding into IRC or the actual issue
00:49:15 <timeless> ... so we have a log for people looking async/in github
00:49:18 <timeless> ... can you do that now?
00:49:29 <timeless> ... I can switch our screen to github
00:49:43 <timeless> q+ to ask if leaving CR is an opportunity to change to the newer process
00:50:21 <timeless> topic: Update SourceBuffer.appendStream and related algorithms (issue-14)
00:50:32 <timeless> paulc: we used to have a reference, there's a Stream API in WhatWG
00:50:36 <timeless> ... current CR points to that spec
00:50:41 <timeless> ... plh can correct me if i'm wrong
00:50:56 <timeless> ... there hasn't been significant interest in WebApps now WebPlatform to produce W3C Streams
00:51:09 <timeless> ... leaving aside progressing because of refs outbound
00:51:20 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz 's comment is how we could reference the stable Stream spec
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00:51:32 <timeless> ... by point to a normative reference to a specific version of Streams
00:51:53 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz: Google in effect have an early implementation based on the new Stream spec, and MS doesn't yet have that
00:52:22 <timeless> [ jdsmith, MS: right; cwilso, Google: right ]
00:52:36 <timeless> MattWolenetz: I think i can work w/ dominic on how to reference
00:52:49 <timeless> ... he gave assurance that if they edit their spec, they'll coordinate before breaking
00:53:02 <timeless> ... as long as we can make something that agrees w/ ...
00:53:05 <timeless> ... i'm comfortable
00:53:21 <timeless> ... as Chrome updated to more recent Streams API, i'm leaning toward that in MSE
00:53:27 <timeless> ... ok jdsmith ?
00:53:58 <timeless> jdsmith: main thing i'm looking for is clarity on stability of the Stream API
00:54:04 <timeless> ... as long as that's satisfied, I don't object
00:54:11 <timeless> ... I had a bias that it was a v.Next feature
00:54:22 <timeless> ... but it's been on the table for 12 months or longer
00:54:36 <timeless> paulc: I looked, and people pointed me back to the minutes that there was consensus to go this way
00:54:54 <timeless> ... whether we'd get two interoperable implementations to go out of CR is another question
00:54:57 <timeless> ... but that was consensus
00:55:10 <timeless> ... so, MattWolenetz you can update github w/ concrete or just make the change
00:55:18 <timeless> ... i think we have consensus to do this
00:55:23 <cwilso> [cwilso leaves room]
00:55:31 <timeless> ... normative reference to Streams
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00:55:42 <timeless> MattWolenetz: i'd prefer for jdsmith to put his view into the issue
00:55:55 <timeless> ... make concrete proposal
00:56:01 <timeless> jdsmith: MattWolenetz please assign that to me
00:56:15 <timeless> ... note that jdsmith will make proposal for concrete ref
00:56:41 <timeless> MattWolenetz: just want jdsmith to respond to github proposal saying "concern would be satisfied w/ stable reference"
00:56:44 <timeless> jdsmith: that's fine
00:57:21 <timeless> paulc: we started this meeting @9am here, 5pm where MattWolenetz is
00:57:35 <timeless> ... I intend to go to 1pm w/ a coffee break and use the 1-2pm lunch slot
00:57:47 <timeless> ... not expecting we'll have MattWolenetz w/ us @2pm our time 11pm his time
00:57:53 <timeless> ... try to get as much done before lunch as feasible
00:58:02 <timeless> topic: Range removal cluster
00:58:22 <timeless> paulc: 5 issues here 19, 20, 29 already marked "needs implementation"
00:58:30 <timeless> ... leaves us w/ issues 23, 26 still outstanding
00:58:52 <timeless> jdsmith: I changed those other two to "needs implementation" based on comments I added and MattWolenetz 's note that it makes sense
00:58:57 <timeless> ... I want to talk wholistically rather than individually
00:59:11 <timeless> ... Range removal, aborts,
00:59:17 <MattWolenetz> s/wholistically/holistically/
00:59:31 <timeless> ... all of that can be resolved by separating range removal from other algorithms
00:59:40 <timeless> ... web site responsible for doing that separately
01:00:09 <timeless> s/aborts,/aborts, discontinuities in frames if you remove not at start boundaries
01:00:25 <timeless> ... intent of this group would be to split Range removal step, has to be called specifically by the application
01:00:32 <timeless> ... second aborting range removal isn't supported
01:00:46 <timeless> ... and get coded frame discrepancies would be revised to clean up time references
01:00:52 <timeless> ... and require resuming on a random access point
01:00:54 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
01:00:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
01:01:00 <timeless> ... 5 independent but related issues
01:01:17 <timeless> ... if the steps I just described are acceptable, it's ready for implementation
01:01:29 <timeless> MattWolenetz: if i understand, what you're presenting is close to what's in the github
01:01:35 <timeless> jdsmith: I'm just summarizing for the room
01:01:55 <timeless> MattWolenetz: separating range removal from other algorithms, there are already separate range removal and ZZZ
01:02:05 <timeless> ... duration change algorithm shouldn't be calling range removal?
01:02:12 <timeless> jdsmith: yes, that's specifically what i meant
01:02:19 <timeless> paulc: who's on point to do those imlementations?
01:02:23 <timeless> s/iml/impl/
01:02:28 <timeless> jdsmith: I have all five, i'll do them
01:02:37 <timeless> paulc: Gordion knot
01:02:43 <timeless> MattWolenetz: I could do that too for balance of work
01:03:32 <timeless> paulc: summary: the batch 19, 20, 23, 26, 29 -- all connected, all have proposal for how to move forward, all "needs implementation"
01:03:56 <timeless> ... as a chair at W3C for 18 years, this is what a F2F does, it forces us to make progress
01:04:10 <timeless> ... want to thank MattWolenetz and jdsmith for circling around these issues, in the run up to the meeting
01:04:30 <timeless> topic: MSE issues for discussion
01:04:33 <timeless> paulc: 9 items
01:04:48 <timeless> ... ordered by monotonically increasing issue number
01:05:00 <timeless> ... attempt to start one or two and continue until we break for coffee
01:05:11 <timeless> topic: Seekable differs from non MSE behavior (issue 5)
01:05:21 <timeless> jdsmith: there's an issue w/ live-
01:05:27 <timeless> ... --- live-streaming
01:05:33 <timeless> ... not having a usable, seekable range
01:05:43 <timeless> ... model that needs to be supported for live-streams
01:05:50 <timeless> ... need a live edge, where you'd start playback
01:06:01 <timeless> ... service has a window allowing pause/playback to resume w/ a timedelay
01:06:05 <timeless> ... or seek back into the DVR window
01:06:16 <timeless> ... to resume playback previous (parallel) to the live edge
01:06:26 <timeless> ... i know impls that fabricate a time range independent from MSE
01:06:41 <timeless> ... no direct way to create this using the standard playback controls
01:06:52 <timeless> ... try to do this w/ standard, you'd probably get unseekable stream
01:07:02 <timeless> ... proposal which i'm uncomfortable w/, maybe coming around to
01:07:08 <timeless> ... allows app to set a seekable range
01:07:18 <timeless> ... know its DVR range, able to say what that is
01:07:24 <timeless> ... allow controls to do seek back/forward
01:07:41 <timeless> ... loose end, still uncomfortable w/, don't want apps to set seekable range if there's a VOD w/ a valid seekable range
01:07:46 <timeless> ... don't want apps to override that
01:07:52 <timeless> ... setting seekable range would persist
01:08:00 <timeless> ... application would need to manage forever
01:08:11 <timeless> ... made some comments in the bug, it supports this general direction
01:08:16 <timeless> ... not sure it's ready for impl
01:08:28 <timeless> MattWolenetz: we had discussion separately for this, in chrome
01:08:40 <timeless> ... looks like difference of implementation of TimedRanges (HTML5)
01:08:55 <timeless> ... allow unrestricted doubles in TimedRange is what Edge used for this, slightly better behavior
01:08:59 <timeless> ... for seekable in non MSE
01:09:11 <timeless> ... trouble w/ MSE is specified is infinite for live stream
01:09:18 <timeless> ... maximum, upper bound of seekable range is Any
01:09:25 <timeless> ... is the highest buffered end time
01:09:30 <timeless> ... if someone seeks backwards
01:09:37 <timeless> ... GC drops the live edge
01:09:48 <timeless> ... you no longer have it buffered, MSE can't seek back to the live edge
01:09:54 <timeless> ... until application buffers there again
01:10:05 <timeless> ... MSE overrides a lot of the media engine fetching/buffering
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01:10:20 <timeless> ... makes total sense to let an app to override seek permission
01:10:25 <timeless> ... applicable for live-stream and VOD
01:10:30 <timeless> ... allowing an override
01:10:41 <timeless> ... there's already a getter for seekable
01:10:56 <timeless> ... if we allow a setter, for a single seekable range
01:11:06 <timeless> ... do we want to apply an array of seekable ranges?
01:11:20 <timeless> ... for immediate blocker, I think a single set seekable range would make sense
01:11:25 <timeless> ... not sure how to do multiple seekable ranges
01:11:36 <timeless> paulc: to be conservative and not allow multiple settable ranges
01:11:41 <timeless> ... if you add that setter
01:11:58 <timeless> ... if you've already done it once and you try to do it again, does it generate an error under certain circumstances, MattWolenetz ?
01:12:07 <timeless> MattWolenetz: there are error conditions we'd need to look at
01:12:18 <timeless> ... constraining to less than currently buffered, doesn't make sense?
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01:12:25 <timeless> ... or when we're changing stuff...?
01:12:37 <timeless> ... looking at HTMLElement, maybe it does support multiple ranges
01:12:45 <timeless> ... or add/remove-seekable range
01:12:54 <timeless> ... more: do we want to have this feature in v1?
01:13:06 <timeless> paulc: good high level question for people in the room
01:13:15 <timeless> ... is that UC important enough to other people?
01:13:23 <timeless> ... to want this issue resolved for a concrete solution
01:13:35 <timeless> rus_: from Comcast's perspective, this is an important feature
01:13:49 <timeless> ... live streams, lots of use cases, CDVR, live recordings
01:14:00 <timeless> ... Cloud-DVR recording, in realtime, you want to be able to seek back
01:14:07 <timeless> ... like a VOD, but not yet
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01:14:18 <timeless> joesteele: i'd agree, Comcast wants it, we have other customers who want it
01:14:21 <timeless> ... for reasons rus_ said
01:14:30 <timeless> paulc: ok, people nodding saying they want it
01:14:46 <timeless> MattWolenetz: matches feedback i've heard
01:14:50 <timeless> ... shockra player, ...
01:14:56 <timeless> ... seek back to live edge
01:15:06 <timeless> ... you could work around by not setting infinite duration
01:15:15 <timeless> ... but we don't want to drive people away from compliance
01:15:18 <timeless> paulc: next steps?
01:15:27 <timeless> ... discuss, flush out detailed proposal?
01:15:45 <timeless> MattWolenetz: 1. MSE allows at most one seekable range, empty, or 0...End
01:16:02 <timeless> ... if we allow a single window, that's pretty easy to do quickly
01:16:07 <timeless> ... to allow more, that's more complex
01:16:16 <timeless> ... i'm proposing for v1, to consider a single setSeekableRange
01:16:24 <timeless> ... with conditions around clipping buffered time
01:16:36 <timeless> ... in updating async/removeAsync to get an exception
01:16:44 <timeless> ... only updatable when stable
01:16:48 <timeless> rus_: I think it's sufficient
01:16:57 <timeless> paulc: let's try to get that into the spec
01:17:07 <timeless> ... and peel off the separate item and get consensus that it's v.next
01:17:27 <MattWolenetz> (separate item being set_multiple_seekable_ranges (and add/remove one or more range, etc))
01:17:39 <joesteele> timeless: as a consumer, I watch CSPAN ooccasionally and those can go for days
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01:17:54 <joesteele> … I would like to seek back to the beggining occassionally
01:18:13 <joesteele> … I can see be frustrated not being able to have access to just the portions/chunks that I have watched
01:18:26 <joesteele> … shown on the timeline as colored sections “I have watched”
01:18:35 <joesteele> … this proposal does not seem to work for me as a user
01:18:44 <joesteele> … could this integrate with Fetch?
01:18:50 <joesteele> … that is not in the right WG
01:19:06 <timeless> MattWolenetz: not sure about integration w/ Fetch
01:19:15 <timeless> ... or interaction w/ media controls
01:19:25 <timeless> ... exposure of what the app, is within the app's control
01:19:26 <joesteele> s/beggining/beginning/
01:19:43 <timeless> ... if cspan wants to only let you seek the whole thing, perhaps it could let you do that
01:19:54 <joesteele> s/can see be /can see being /
01:19:55 <timeless> paulc: sounds like it's a client problem, not an MSE problem
01:20:02 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
01:20:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
01:20:08 <timeless> MattWolenetz: problem is more being able to seek to the live edge
01:20:26 <timeless> jdsmith: another aspect is that you don't know how far you can go back into the cloud
01:20:34 <timeless> ... i view this as
01:20:44 <timeless> ... putting live streams on equal footing w/ VOD
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01:20:51 <timeless> ... seek anywhere in the content
01:20:59 <timeless> ... service could let you stream very far back
01:21:06 <timeless> ... as MattWolenetz said, custom ui could do anything
01:21:08 <joesteele> s/ooccasionally/occasionally/
01:21:19 <timeless> rus_: as long as somewhere in the definition, nobody knows better than the app
01:21:26 <timeless> ... as long as that's set, the ui can do that
01:21:30 <timeless> ... it should be possible
01:21:40 <timeless> paulc: who owns this issue?
01:21:48 <timeless> jdsmith: i'd favor MattWolenetz takes this on
01:21:57 <timeless> ... I was digesting the request, i've done that
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01:22:13 <timeless> paulc: reassign to MattWolenetz to carry forward w/ a concrete proposal
01:22:20 <timeless> MattWolenetz: i'll update the issue now
01:23:13 <timeless> [ Break for 15 minutes ]
01:40:16 <MattWolenetz> q+ issue 5: perhaps allow setting empty seekable range? interaction with loop?
01:40:29 <MattWolenetz> q+ to ask about issue 5: perhaps allow setting empty seekable range? interaction with loop?
01:43:28 <timeless> ack timeless
01:43:28 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if leaving CR is an opportunity to change to the newer process
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01:43:42 <timeless> s/q+ issue 5: perhaps allow setting empty seekable range? interaction with loop?//
01:43:48 <timeless> ack MattWolenetz
01:43:48 <Zakim> MattWolenetz, you wanted to ask about issue 5: perhaps allow setting empty seekable range? interaction with loop?
01:44:06 <timeless> MattWolenetz: don't know if it's something we should do
01:44:15 <timeless> ... MSE will either have no seekable range, if there's nothing buffered
01:44:19 <timeless> ... or at least 0:0
01:45:05 <timeless> ... an Empty Time Range to the setter
01:45:19 <timeless> ... say it allowed for time ranges object
01:45:32 <timeless> ... what would it mean if there was an empty time ranges object
01:45:37 <timeless> paulc: what does it mean in HTML5?
01:45:46 <timeless> MattWolenetz: there's no setter, just a getter
01:45:57 <timeless> ... and it might return start..known duration
01:46:06 <timeless> ... but since there's no setter exposed in html
01:46:21 <timeless> jdsmith: is the idea that an app might force you to live edge and block seeking?
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01:46:29 <timeless> MattWolenetz: that's what i'm thinking, and might be desired
01:46:32 <timeless> ... dunno
01:46:39 <timeless> jdsmith: might have some value
01:46:44 <timeless> ... probably we should consider it
01:47:07 <timeless> paulc: jdsmith's suggesting don't preclude it for now, but if it does, then ..
01:47:14 <timeless> MattWolenetz: will take a look at it and see
01:48:40 <timeless> topic:  Some of the attributes returning TimeRanges objects seem to return a new object each time the getter is invoked (ISSUE-16)
01:49:28 <timeless> s|... s/Director/first: Director||
01:49:44 <timeless> MattWolenetz: i think we had some consensus from the original bugzilla bug
01:49:50 <timeless> ... i think it's just a request for clarification
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01:50:17 <timeless> s/Director could simply/first: Director could simply
01:50:30 <timeless> ... original issue, I already had things, and follow up had things
01:50:40 <timeless> ... i closed it as wontfix, and jdsmith confirmed
01:50:47 <timeless> ... not sure why it's on the agenda
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01:51:11 <timeless> s/s|||//
01:51:36 <timeless> topic: Clarify how track buffer ranges are updated (ISSUE-15)
01:51:59 <timeless> s|s/Webapps WG/Web Platform WG/||
01:52:08 <timeless> s/WebApps WG/Web Platform WG/
01:52:14 <timeless> MattWolenetz: assigned to me, needs followup
01:52:23 <timeless> ... i had action items to split up issue into multiple issues
01:52:26 <timeless> ... core original issue
01:52:43 <timeless> ... clearly call out expectations when partial coded range is buffered+appended
01:52:46 <timeless> ... what should timeline show?
01:52:52 <timeless> ... show gaps if it would be stalled
01:53:06 <timeless> ... and only show things that could be seeked and for which playback could be started
01:53:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:53:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
01:53:37 <timeless> paulc: where's the original solution in bugzilla?
01:53:48 <timeless> MattWolenetz: my reply pointed to bugzilla comment #2
01:54:04 <timeless> ... question to jdsmith about his comment from 9 days ago
01:54:09 <timeless> jdsmith: not sure
01:54:23 <timeless> ... could help if there was a concise summary of the issue and what you want to do
01:54:41 <timeless> action MattWolenetz to split bug27242 into issues
01:54:41 <trackbot> Error finding 'MattWolenetz'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/users>.
01:54:53 <timeless> action Wol to split bug27242 into issues
01:54:53 <trackbot> Error finding 'Wol'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/users>.
01:54:54 <paulc> original bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27242
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01:55:29 <joesteele> present + MattWolenetz
01:55:42 <timeless> action paulc to action MattWolenetz to split bug27242 into issues
01:55:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-99 - Action mattwolenetz to split bug27242 into issues [on Paul Cotton - due 2015-11-05].
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01:55:57 <timeless> paulc: so issue-15 is very much pending
01:56:00 <timeless> MattWolenetz: correct
01:56:30 <timeless> topic: Should the media element load algorithm trigger detaching from a media element? (ISSUE-17)
01:56:39 <timeless> jdsmith: when an element goes to network-empty
01:56:52 <timeless> ... LOAD and FETCH update media element, but not necessarily through network-empty
01:57:01 <timeless> ... if you want to repurpose a media-element
01:57:10 <timeless> ... we might not clean things up if you just do Load/Fetch
01:57:18 <timeless> ... I think fixing this might require changes in Load/Fetch
01:57:31 <timeless> MattWolenetz: in other cases, we made call out to extend the html spec
01:57:56 <timeless> jdsmith: I think the proposal would be to extend detaching source buffers from media element
01:58:04 <timeless> ... to include LOAD and FETCH as triggers
01:58:29 <timeless> paulc: do we have a concrete proposal in the bugs?
01:58:35 <timeless> jdsmith: no
01:58:47 <timeless> MattWolenetz: most recent comment by philip in 17
01:58:52 <timeless> ... [reads from it]
01:59:04 <timeless> s/... //
01:59:10 <timeless> MattWolenetz: former is usually how we do it
01:59:32 <timeless> ... i think the most recent comment -- 17 hours ago covers enough of an approach, i believe to get into a pull request
01:59:41 <timeless> ... for issue-17 and issue-18
01:59:59 <timeless> ... sounds like a good plan to me
02:00:11 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:00:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
02:01:03 <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#EME|https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2015-10-Agenda#MSE|
02:01:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:01:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-html-media-minutes.html timeless
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02:01:17 <joesteele> https://github.com/w3c/media-source/issues/17#issuecomment-151775085
02:01:33 <timeless> paulc: i like your descriptions of issue-17/issue-18 for how to change existing html5 semantics
02:01:46 <timeless> MattWolenetz: we should mark out sections we're extending
02:02:02 <timeless> paulc: i'd rather not revisit these issues next year in portugal
02:02:09 <timeless> jdsmith: i think i understand the suggestion
02:02:19 <timeless> ... replace network-empty w/ a fetch/load trigger, not opposed
02:02:33 <timeless> paulc: MattWolenetz: sounds like it can be turned into a PR
02:02:38 <timeless> s/PR/Pull-Request
02:02:47 <timeless> MattWolenetz: issue-17 and issue-18 can be marked as needs-implementation
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02:03:54 <timeless> topic: Suspending and notifying resumption of a download for a media element fetching from a MediaSource (ISSUE-24)
02:04:17 <timeless> paulc: sounds like we need input, and haven't made progress in the last 2 weeks
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02:05:45 <timeless> [ paulc reads comment from issue-11 about not blocking MSE from CR ]
02:06:09 <timeless> paulc: i was asked to put 11 and 24 in the same bucket
02:06:25 <timeless> ... your comment 2 weeks ago said we need to understand the original issue better
02:06:32 <timeless> ... is it solved if we ignore preload for mse?
02:06:37 <timeless> ... it doesn't look like we made progress on this pair
02:06:49 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28573
02:06:54 <timeless> MattWolenetz: issue-11, i think we made progress in terms of understanding of what change we need to make
02:07:02 <timeless> ... i think we should put a pull-request together to fix it
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02:07:10 <timeless> ... i put it in needs implementation
02:07:17 <timeless> ... but i'm not ready for a pull-request for it
02:07:36 <timeless> ... issue-24 also has language in the original bug on the preload attribute
02:07:42 <timeless> ... it's partially related to issue-11
02:08:04 <timeless> paulc: so get issue-11 processed, have issue-11 block issue-24
02:08:13 <timeless> ... and then once issue-11 is resolved, we can revisit issue-24
02:08:25 <timeless> ... doesn't necessarily force issue-24 for v.next
02:08:46 <timeless> jdsmith: issue-24 is assigned to me, i think i owned issue-11 together
02:08:52 <timeless> ... MattWolenetz i think you should own it together
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02:09:14 <timeless> paulc: blocking helps me understand transitivity, and i'd have grouped them together
02:09:25 <timeless> MattWolenetz: i've taken ownership and marked it as blocked
02:09:45 <timeless> topic: Ambiguous behavior with Coded Frame Processing algorithm (ISSUE-25)
02:10:11 <timeless> MattWolenetz: proposal, disagreement around proposal
02:10:18 <timeless> ... ambiguous behavior
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02:10:36 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28710
02:10:46 <timeless> s|http|-> http
02:11:04 <timeless> s|28710|28710#c0
02:11:16 <timeless> MattWolenetz: there's more language in step 13
02:11:29 <timeless> ... we could remove language from 13, have 15 cover both 13 and 14
02:11:40 <timeless> ... trying to understand jdsmith 's response on the github issue
02:12:03 <timeless> jdsmith: i thought the proposed change lost some value from the current language
02:12:13 <timeless> ... when collapsing into a single requirement
02:12:45 <timeless> s|0|0 Proposal for Ambiguous behavior with Coded Frame Processing algorithm
02:13:13 <MattWolenetz> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-source/#sourcebuffer-coded-frame-processing step 15
02:13:44 <joesteele> s/occassionally/occasionally/
02:13:57 <timeless> MattWolenetz: if we know enough about IFrames, PFrames, BFrames
02:14:02 <timeless> ... we should remove the ...
02:14:06 <timeless> ... if we ZZZ
02:14:12 <timeless> ... the first one conserves more data
02:14:20 <timeless> ... the second one if correct shouldn't cause decode problems
02:14:28 <timeless> ... i think GGG at Mozilla had a misunderstanding
02:14:34 <timeless> ... about removing frames
02:14:37 <timeless> ... in order
02:14:44 <timeless> ... i think clarification about order could help