23:31:27 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 23:31:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-dpub-irc 23:31:33 rrsagent, set log public 23:31:50 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 23:32:12 Meeting: DPUB IG F2F second day, 2015-10-30, Sapporo 23:32:17 Chair: Tzviya 23:33:10 Present+ Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu 23:33:31 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Second_day_.2830_Oct.29 23:33:39 ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Second_day_.2830_Oct.29 23:38:45 sam has joined #dpub 23:39:12 shigeya has joined #dpub 23:39:28 ShaneM has joined #dpub 23:43:04 baba has joined #dpub 23:45:35 LarsG has joined #dpub 23:47:37 clapierre has joined #DPUB 23:47:58 sam has joined #dpub 23:51:06 Present+ Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida 23:51:35 Present+ Takeshi_Kanai 00:00:36 brady_duga has joined #dpub 00:00:38 need to leave earlier today at about 15:00 right after ARIA session 00:01:21 Florian has joined #dpub 00:01:56 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 00:01:56 LarsG_ has joined #dpub 00:02:36 Bert1 has joined #dpub 00:02:39 Present+ Felix_Sasaki, Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm 00:02:50 present+ LarsG 00:02:51 zakim, who is here? 00:02:51 Present: Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu, Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida, Takeshi_Kanai, Felix_Sasaki, 00:02:54 ... Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm, LarsG 00:02:54 On IRC I see Bert1, LarsG_, johanneswilm, Florian, brady_duga, sam, clapierre, LarsG, baba, ShaneM, shigeya, RRSAgent, jeff_xu, Zakim, tzviya, HeatherF, Karen, shepazu, Ralph, 00:02:54 ... ivan, rego, liam, JakeA, fantasai, hober, nikos, leaverou_away, bigbluehat, plinss, astearns, iank, Bert, trackbot 00:03:14 takeshi has joined #dpub 00:04:05 murakami has joined #dpub 00:04:08 Bert1 has left #dpub 00:04:17 Present+ Lars_Svensson 00:05:50 zakim, who is here? 00:05:50 Present: Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu, Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida, Takeshi_Kanai, Felix_Sasaki, 00:05:53 ... Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm, LarsG, Lars_Svensson 00:05:53 On IRC I see murakami, takeshi, LarsG, johanneswilm, Florian, brady_duga, sam, clapierre, baba, ShaneM, shigeya, RRSAgent, jeff_xu, Zakim, tzviya, HeatherF, Karen, shepazu, Ralph, 00:05:53 ... ivan, rego, liam, JakeA, fantasai, hober, nikos, leaverou_away, bigbluehat, plinss, astearns, iank, Bert, trackbot 00:06:37 Present+ Takao_Baba 00:07:06 dauwhe has joined #dpub 00:07:38 fsasaki has joined #dpub 00:07:44 scribe: fsasaki 00:07:50 scribenick: fsasaki 00:07:52 topic: education and outreach 00:08:14 karen presenting on education and outreach 00:08:34 karen: now more information on kodansha, one of the largest japanese publishers 00:09:42 junichi: there are about 25 japanese publishers sharing the market 00:09:53 ... big publishing areas like books and mangas 00:10:02 ... epub 3.0 did not work for manga publishing 00:10:20 ... 3.1 helped with that 00:10:34 ... but it is also a kind of headache since there are changes again 00:10:59 ... there is lot of interested epubweb and related initatives 00:11:06 ... have worked on publishing for a long time 00:11:15 ... /me probably 00:11:33 ... a great pleasure to be in this group and being able to discuss these items 00:11:54 [scribe comment: above "3.1" may actually menat to be 3.01] 00:12:12 karen: we made progress in meeting with editorial boards of major publishers in the US 00:12:24 ... publishers weekly, publishers perspective, digital bookworld 00:12:34 ... they all would like to hear from us and want content on a regular basis 00:12:43 ... challenge is that we don't have enough people to have content 00:12:56 ... wondering if any of you want to be an author for some of those publications 00:13:07 ... we also have the w3c blog, the w3c digital publishing page 00:13:10 s/3.1/3.0.1 00:13:14 q+ 00:13:24 ... and the IDPF would welcome shared information for some fo the work that we are doing together 00:13:35 ack hea 00:13:42 ... we might encourage participation today and find out topics your task forces would like to advance 00:13:53 heatherF: what type of content are you looking for? 00:14:06 q+ to talk about blogging publication 00:14:15 karen: looking into introductory piece about the work w3c and ipdf do together 00:14:26 ... then specific items on accessibility, stem etc. - the task forces 00:14:35 ... not only the "what" but also the "why" 00:14:51 ... they want to have a regular cadance on the issues we are working on 00:14:59 ... small pieces are ok 500 words or less 00:15:13 ... if more people are able to contribute on a regular basis we can have the w3c presence more often 00:15:18 ack tzv 00:15:18 tzviya, you wanted to talk about blogging publication 00:15:31 tzviya: ivan, karen and I spoke about this yesterday 00:15:51 ... in some of the other groups, when there is a publication, there is the rule that there is a blog post 00:16:12 .... that is somebody has to write it, and then you become comfortable with blog posts 00:16:21 ... it seems like another task but we can put that togehter 00:16:29 s/togehter/together/ 00:16:45 tzviya: just created a draft post took 10 minutes 00:16:57 ... minutes are important but we need more on the blog 00:17:07 ... if we do something interesting let's talk about it 00:17:50 ... did you play werewolf? write about it 00:17:58 ... we are serious but we also have fun 00:18:24 @@: can write personal things in my blog post 00:18:33 s/@@/duga 00:18:40 ... nothing I would have to clear with the company 00:18:42 q? 00:19:02 tzviya: can talk about great meeting we had with i18n 00:19:27 karen: we are missing rest of the world - what are the other outlets that are valuable? 00:19:44 ... where do you think we should reach out to that would be important for the publishing industry in japan 00:20:02 ... are there publications or blogs that you read reguarly? 00:20:18 @@: joined japanese meetup last sunday 00:20:21 kwkbtr has joined #dpub 00:20:25 ... we need to work on more communication 00:20:32 ... we are a technical vendord 00:20:51 ... we need to translate the publisher language to w3c language 00:20:56 q? 00:21:06 s/vendord/vendor/ 00:21:07 ... hope that we can build such a channel for publishers requirements 00:21:27 ... we can broadcast then items to the broadcaster 00:21:38 s/@@/jeff_xu 00:21:44 karen: would you be willing to work with us on this? 00:21:46 q+ 00:21:48 jeff_xu: sure 00:21:57 karen: web sites, blogs, journals, ... 00:22:11 ack takeshi 00:22:18 jeff_xu: I'll start from informal communication, then look into more official channel 00:22:37 takeshi: I have some concern to focus on publishers too much 00:22:46 ... the publishers experience is based on printing 00:22:56 ... most of the publishers will say: content will start from upper right 00:23:05 ... but the web site will start from left up 00:23:11 ... even if content is written vertical 00:23:21 .... that is because the design is important for the web designers 00:23:30 ... works for japanese and translated web content 00:23:48 ... there are no publication features designed both for japanese layout and translated english content 00:23:56 ... need to get the japanese web designer on board! 00:24:23 tzviya: communication between web designers and publishers is very important 00:24:24 q? 00:24:38 takeshi: web designers do what is available in web standards 00:24:48 ... designers just accept the current situation 00:24:57 q+ 00:25:00 q+ 00:25:04 q- 00:25:15 jeff_xu: we need to involve more creators 00:25:26 ... who work with css, vertical writing mode etc. 00:25:34 ack baba 00:25:47 http://ebpaj.jp/ 00:25:50 baba: I posted URI of ebpaj in japan 00:26:13 ... most of japanese publishers like kodansha and others are member of this association 00:26:26 karen: so this would be a good way to reach developers? 00:26:35 baba: they make epub templates of japanese publishing 00:26:49 ... allmost all publishers including small publishers use the templates used by ebpaj 00:26:51 q+ 00:26:53 EBPAJ = The Electric Book Publishers Association Japan 00:27:02 ... they have some opinion on epub specs 00:27:29 q+ 00:27:31 Present+ Shigeya_Suzuki 00:27:47 baba: sometimes I talk to members of these association and they say: epub should do ... 00:28:03 ... I am not member of this 00:28:33 junichi: japanese publishing industry could adopt epub 3 00:28:49 ... and standardize and "japanese" spec to small and medium sized company 00:29:22 ... various people do a great job of translating epub 3 spec for the japanese book and printing industry 00:29:39 ... but we need more production side people of japanese industry 00:29:46 ... publishers are so small and slized 00:29:58 ... there is toppan insatsu, other big companies 00:30:06 ... they are capable of taking up things 00:30:29 ... we have to touch distribution and platform people and engage them in w3c 00:30:57 ... epubweb is accceptable for me 00:31:07 ... but publishers are concerned about backward compatibility 00:31:49 ... if it is a guranetee that epub will stay back ward compatibly, and also a new version that would be great 00:32:07 tzviya: just to clarify: this group is not doing a new standardization of epub 00:32:16 ... we are not addressing backward compatibility 00:32:31 ... some of things that we are supporting is addressing IDPF 00:32:43 ... e.g. in the area of identifiers 00:33:02 ... the work we are doing here takes backward compatility into account 00:33:07 ack ivan 00:33:12 ... css layout is a great concern for vertical writing 00:33:14 q? 00:33:36 ivan: EBPAJ is very important to fit another contact 00:33:49 ... e.g. german börsenverein, german equivalent etc. 00:34:00 q- 00:34:07 ivan: page is kind of a blog 00:34:46 .. it seems. my question: can japanese colleagues at keio help to translate blog? 00:34:55 ... that is to use the office and host network we have? 00:34:55 q+ 00:35:26 ivan: would be quite challenging to do that on our own 00:35:51 ... e.g. can sam or others can see if we can give blogs on side xyz? 00:36:08 ... the blog we are talking about is for portable web application 00:36:10 some english info from EBPAJ: http://ebpaj.jp/counsel/guide 00:36:14 ... have that translated in japan 00:36:32 tzviya: we should expand our request to our membership 00:36:35 q? 00:37:03 ivan: yes, for the people who are providing information to publishers 00:37:15 karen: we are working on building an infrastructure for dissemination 00:37:22 .. working with our offices 00:37:48 ... we have a platform, providing info about who to reach out to for what topic 00:37:57 ack fs 00:38:40 scribenick: tzviya 00:39:10 fsasaki: maybe these organizations would like to do the transalations themselves 00:39:29 scribenick: fsasaki 00:39:53 ivan: agree, the offices or hosts can be a conduit to these organizations 00:40:11 ivan: about what takeshi said - relationship between publishers and web designers is not only a japanese issue 00:40:24 ... publishers have long time experience of presenting 00:40:55 ... sometimes wish that web sites would be as good layouted as publications 00:41:09 ... believe me takeshi that this is not only a japanese problem 00:41:27 tzviya: various organisations work around the world 00:41:45 ... conversion houses, printers, ... these are the organisations producing ebooks around the world 00:42:00 ... even amazon is using them! 00:42:30 karen: we have both technical information to distribute, but also business messages on trends, issues etc. 00:43:21 ivan: should this also be raised at next offices meeting? 00:43:22 karen: sure 00:44:19 ivan: I did not thing about that aspect previously, whether they are interested in more information 00:44:36 felix: think these organizations would love to distribute content 00:45:00 karen: we need to involve people in creating webinars 00:45:21 ... we could do general, vision like, css, i18n, aria, accessiiblity etc. 00:45:33 ... it takes some time including getting permission from your company 00:45:44 ... others are doing marketing - we provide the content 00:45:54 ... so is a webinar interesting for your to participate in? 00:46:08 s/accessiiblity/accessibility/ 00:46:13 tzviya: a first webinar can remind people that we exist 00:46:22 ... who are we, what do we do, do you know w3c? 00:46:33 q+ 00:46:42 ... then with more technical work we have done, css, esp. related to publishing 00:46:54 ... talking about great tricks you can do to make your ebooks better 00:47:10 ... we need to mindful about doing this jointly with IDPF 00:47:24 ... we don't want to create a webinar about how to create an ebook 00:47:26 ivan: agree 00:47:42 ... for this type of messaging a clear synchronization with IDPF is important 00:47:52 q+ 00:47:53 ack cl 00:48:06 ... we want to be clear that we will not take IDPFs place 00:48:16 charles: will be on panels 00:48:22 ... on accessibility and mathML 00:48:34 ... and will be on panel on csun on accessibility and mathML 00:48:52 tzviya: we should just touch base about what we do with karen 00:48:55 ack heather 00:49:11 karen: yes, conferences is also another ecosystem we want to address 00:49:17 heather: I hate webinars 00:49:30 ... I have a hard time to understand who are the target audiences 00:49:41 ... one is the mgmt in publishing, more high level 00:49:54 ... then there is more technical area, update on work that we are doing 00:50:07 ... new resources, educational outreach for a more technical audience 00:50:27 tzviya: may be hard to get a c-level audience to watch a webinar 00:50:34 q? 00:50:52 karen: no, would not be c- level publishing. for c- level we are looking into a c- level event, working with jeff and bill on that 00:51:12 ... back to events - what are the events you think are important 00:51:15 q+ 00:51:25 ack cl 00:51:33 charles: in march there is csun 00:51:57 ... one of the biggest disability conferences, a week long conference on disabilty 00:52:15 s/disabilty/dissability/ 00:52:24 karen: is that always in california? 00:52:33 charles: yes, in last 3-4 years has been in san diego 00:52:47 ivan: the WAI team is always present 00:53:13 tzviya: there is ebook craft in toronoto, that is run by book net canada 00:53:40 ... look of people involved in ebook development 00:53:49 http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2016/sessions/ 00:54:08 ivan: local publishers association have their information 00:54:15 CSUN March 21-26 2016 in San Diego CA 00:54:33 ebookcraft http://www.booknetcanada.ca/ebookcraft/ 00:54:47 q/ 00:54:54 s/q// 00:54:57 q? 00:54:58 q+ 00:55:01 ... probably somebody should be at these events - maybe not me; I then would be in the french event 00:55:08 ... issue is sometimes to have the info 00:55:41 tzviya: IDPF had its event last year, doing it again this year 00:55:51 ack cl 00:55:53 ivan: IDPF also wants to have an evetn in paris 00:56:01 s/evetn/event/ 00:56:15 charles: do we have a twitter account? 00:56:23 Georg has joined #dpub 00:56:29 karen: we have w3c account http://twitter.com/w3c 00:56:37 .. using #dpub hashtag 00:56:49 ivan: I am twitter reader mostly 00:57:06 karen: what about library community? 00:57:30 sven: american libraries association event 00:57:40 ... then IFLA conference, always in august 00:57:50 ... between 3-4 thousand participants 00:57:59 ... including c-level people from libaries 00:58:24 ... having special sessions like assecibiliaty, long term preservation, information acess (where I am in), preservation 00:58:33 ... the next one is augst 13-18 in columbus ohia 00:58:43 s/ohia/ohio/ 00:58:51 ... these are the two main events 00:59:02 ivan: what is profile of dublin core these days? 00:59:13 s/sven/lars/ 00:59:17 lars: metadata 00:59:22 ... not sure about details 00:59:29 ... in that community 00:59:40 karen: what about annotations? 00:59:47 http://www.sspnet.org/ 00:59:50 ivan: may be hard for library community at the moment 01:00:06 tzviya: event in june, see link, we should be there 01:00:20 karen: in asia? some large publishing events? 01:00:44 ivan: there is chinese publishers event - I will find out next week 01:00:51 ... there are big conferences 01:01:03 ... problem is that chinese publishers are in their own world 01:01:10 ... there are very much in their own silo 01:01:23 ... bill has been there several times, I'll go next week - we'll see 01:01:40 ... India is next item - a lot of things happening here 01:01:47 ... pryanka was at one of those events 01:01:53 karen: I'll check with her 01:01:58 http://www.bookfair.jp/en/ 01:02:10 s/information acess/information technology/ 01:02:11 murakamia: toko international bookfair 01:02:12 london book fair, Frankfurt Book Fair 01:02:26 s/murakamia/murakami/ 01:02:36 murakami: largest event in japan 01:02:38 s/augst/august/ 01:02:39 q+ 01:02:47 +q 01:02:52 ... then there is paige event, of the print industry associat 01:02:54 jagat 01:03:16 Rio de Janeiro International Book Fair 01:03:18 q? 01:03:25 felix: jagat where main contact for doing the japanese layout requirements work 01:03:32 s/associat/assoication/ 01:03:56 junichi: new law related to accessibility requirements 01:04:05 https://www.facebook.com/bookexpoamerica/ 01:04:06 ... very hard for text book companies 01:04:09 BookExpo America (BEA) 2016 | Exhibits, Special Events, and Conferences: May 11 - May 13 | McCormick Place, Chicago 01:04:14 ... universities also must catch up 01:04:21 q- 01:04:40 ... next paige event or tokyo book fair must work on those fields 01:04:40 ack geo 01:04:53 georg: interested in facts about the conferences you mention? 01:05:02 q+ 01:05:13 s/toko/Tokyo/ 01:05:19 ack iv 01:06:27 ivan: physical fair, in 90% of the cases, this is not the audience we are looking for 01:06:37 ... many people listening to author and signing books 01:06:48 ... for this group it is uninteresting 01:07:01 ... this is only interesting if there is a side event around 01:07:27 q+ 01:07:52 [about page conference, see jagat site: http://www.jagat.or.jp/cat8 ] 01:08:13 ivan: frankfurt bookfair is a huge monster, we are not the ones that run the show 01:08:23 georg: we had an interesting experience 01:08:41 ...in berlin there was a conference on the industrial internet of things - different area 01:08:54 ... the company organizes events that are very expensive to attend 01:09:03 ... they want to get c- level people to the event 01:09:27 ... speakers may be expensive but this is ok, since the tickets are expensive 01:09:46 .... ticket around 3000 euro - we had dave raggett at the event talking about web of things 01:09:55 ... we had a booth in the expose, had visibility 01:10:09 ... that gave a great boost to web of things 01:10:41 ... not if there is space in the company plannings - but it may make sense to organize events 01:10:54 tzviya: there was an event like that - books and browsers 01:10:59 +q 01:11:01 ... it was run by o'reilly 01:11:14 ... the event stopped, o'reilly shiftet to big data topic 01:11:18 ack tzv 01:11:23 georg: ok, more technical stuff 01:11:29 http://english.keris.or.kr/ 01:11:35 s/shiftet/shifted/ 01:11:43 tzviya: korea has event for educational content 01:11:52 ack Johannes 01:11:59 karen: great, will pass this to korean office 01:12:16 johannes: about frankfurt bookfair, I presented 01:12:27 ... there are small sections with people interested 01:12:37 .. you need to be in the right section 01:12:55 ivan: still it is an expensive exercise 01:13:01 q+ to offer to contact the relevant people at IFLA 01:13:09 q+ 01:13:11 brady_duga_ has joined #dpub 01:13:43 tzviya: my impression in frankfurt was that there are mostly business people, no chance to discuss our topics 01:13:56 johannes: the smaller ones send technical people 01:14:13 ack Lars 01:14:13 LarsG, you wanted to offer to contact the relevant people at IFLA 01:14:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:14:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-dpub-minutes.html ivan 01:14:13 .. was discussing with service companies 01:14:39 ack fs 01:14:41 tzviya: want to reach out to IFLa, will be in touch will karen 01:14:53 ... about ALA, talk to robert 01:15:11 heather: has connection to special libraries 01:15:37 q? 01:15:54 q+ 01:15:54 felix: to johannes, your work is related to akep? 01:16:03 johannes: don't know them 01:16:13 https://www.sla.org 01:16:16 felix: let's touch base and maybe join forces next year 01:16:17 ack iv 01:16:25 karen: great conversation, this has been very helpful 01:16:40 ivan: what are the topics for the next weeks e.g. for blogs? 01:16:44 s/tzviya: want/LarsG: want/ 01:16:54 karen: announcement of portable web publications 01:16:58 s/IFLa/IFLA/ 01:17:16 s/touch will karen/touch with karen/ 01:17:29 karen: want something about TPAC 01:17:49 ... open to see what is another milestone until the end of the year? 01:17:55 q+ 01:18:07 ivan: a blog post about css priorities that they have published about a month ago 01:18:31 .... in CSS discussion, it became clear that the influence is different 01:18:38 ... a blog on that would be interesting 01:18:46 ... and aria vocabulary 01:19:02 ... in an ideal world in which there is no discussion about the role of aria 01:19:41 ... the presence of the vocabulary 01:19:57 karen: who would do the blogs? 01:20:06 ivan: maybe florian for CSS 01:20:09 ack cla 01:20:28 tzviya: for CSS work with @@ 01:20:37 charles: tpac blog, should we coordinate this? 01:20:44 s/@@/rich schwerdferger 01:20:48 ivan: we can also have several ones 01:21:02 karen: can also do both, coordinated and separate 01:21:20 Present+ Liam_Quin 01:21:27 tzviya: tpac snapshots, summaries, ... 01:21:39 ... I always point people to the summaries written by ivan 01:21:49 [big thanks to ivan for that!] 01:22:04 karen: I'll put some items on the wiki and get that better organizsed 01:22:11 s/organizsed/organised/ 01:22:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:22:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/29-dpub-minutes.html ivan 01:22:22 break, contine 01:22:35 s/contine/continue/ 01:33:17