04:29:24 RRSAgent has joined #webex 04:29:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-irc 04:29:34 rrsagent, please make record public 04:29:56 nigel has joined #webex 04:30:13 present: Nigel Megitt, David Singer, Vivien Lacourba, Ralph Swick 04:30:22 dsinger has joined #webex 04:31:20 Meeting: Webex - how's it going? Breakout TPAC 2015 04:31:28 chair: nigel 04:31:56 vivien has joined #webex 04:32:03 scribe: nigel 04:32:21 Present+ nigel 04:32:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 04:32:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html vivien 04:33:00 Present- nigel 04:34:25 vivien: I'm on the systems team 04:34:52 Ralph: This was instigated in the Chair's breakfast after nigel mentioned that Webex doesn't seem to be a good fit for W3C 04:35:06 ... then Jeff suggested we use a breakout session. 04:35:18 s/ systems team/ systems team and also co-staff contact in WebRTC WG/ 04:35:20 dsinger: And we use Webex because it's free from MIT not because we think it's ideal? 04:35:42 Ralph: The original trigger was that MIT decided not to cover the zakim telephony expenses. 04:36:35 ... Looking around for alternatives, Webex was the new campus service including the call-out and call-back service, and it's available at no cost to W3C. 04:36:48 ... I haven't found anything else that does what we need. There could be a question if 04:37:05 ... another service were to meet all our needs (including PSTN access) with a non-zero cost. 04:37:33 nigel: I know at least one other, e.g. Microsoft Lync. 04:37:58 Ralph: There are other services, that have a cost for PSTN access. 04:38:28 dsinger: A new best practice is to assign people personal code numbers, and require that 04:38:43 ... they enter them, then instead of showing as "Call in user (23)" their name comes up. 04:39:08 Ralph: Most people use the client to make it call them. 04:39:26 vivien: Even on Unix the Java app works but the audio doesn't. Sometimes I'm getting 04:39:35 ... disconnections. 04:39:50 Ralph: That was my question - why call in rather than having Webex call out. 04:40:25 Nigel: let's start with "How's it going?" feedback 04:40:39 agenda+ How's it going? 04:40:45 Zakim has joined #webex 04:40:47 agenda+ How's it going? 04:40:53 move to next item 04:40:53 agendum 1. "How's it going?" taken up [from Ralph] 04:41:02 Nigth: in Timed Text we've seen two problems: 04:41:17 ... 1. the meeting prematurely ended with no apparent reason 04:41:20 ... this happened once 04:41:30 ... 2. the meeting hadn't been scheduled at the right time 04:41:53 ... both of these became significant because the time to repair took significant time of the meeting 04:42:09 ... even 5 minutes is an issue 04:42:21 ... the overall effect in these cases was 15 minutes 04:42:41 ... I used WebEx elsewhere and my general experience is that it's good quality 04:43:13 ... I do have the symptom where I've requested dialout and the system thinks it's made a connection but my phone hasn't rung 04:43:47 dsinger: The password leaking out has also been raised by the team. That's been pointed out by the team already. 04:44:04 vivien: Google has spidered all our meeting pages too, so a quick search shows up all the meetings. 04:44:49 Present+ Masato Ohura 04:44:55 see https://www.google.co.jp/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=pVIwVpWbJ8mm8weUqZqgCQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=wite:w3.org+mit.webex.com 04:46:00 s;https://www.google.co.jp/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=pVIwVpWbJ8mm8weUqZqgCQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=wite:w3.org+mit.webex.com;https://www.google.fr/?q=site:w3.org+mit.webex.com; 04:46:24 the right google search: https://www.google.com/?q=site:w3.org+mit.webex.com 04:46:47 Ralph: There was an unusual pattern of outgoing calls identified. That was dealt with by unilaterally removing the meetings. 04:46:55 dsinger: So they were deleting repeating meetings? 04:47:00 Ralph: Right. 04:48:15 ... The bottom line was that we chose not to publish the participant password. 04:49:13 nigel: In my experience you can't join the audio call until the host role has been claimed 04:49:19 vivien: That's configurable. 04:49:37 dsinger: We have no hope of holding meetings without distributing the participant code 04:49:56 Ralph: I commented that we have to publish the meeting URL, and that the WG pages are public. 04:50:24 ... We can probably figure out how to distribute the code privately. 04:50:39 ... I don't understand when the password is needed vs when it is not. 04:50:46 dsinger: Separate from the meeting number? 04:50:50 Ralph: Correct. 04:50:53 dsinger: What's the point of it? 04:51:14 vivien: If you join from the URI then it doesn't ask for the password, but if navigating using the meeting code then it does ask for the password. 04:51:31 Ralph: The compromise is to keep the password secret but not the 9 digit code. 04:52:01 dsinger: We could configure that a host is required, e.g. staff or chair 04:52:52 nigel: That's the situation right now in TTWG. But in case the chair isn't present then someone else has to claim the host role. 04:53:15 Ralph: We can allow chairs to have admin rights. 04:53:38 vivien: The issue is that we still make the URI public. 04:54:34 dsinger: I've never been asked for a password. 04:55:21 group: conversation about details re joining and requirement for password. 04:57:21 nigel: The conclusion is that sometimes the password is required to start the client, so we do need to distribute it. We're not sure why! 04:58:33 vivien: So there's the password issue and the publicity of the password. 04:58:52 Ralph: So we can tell Cisco that they need to make it so we can publish a public URL that still requires a password 04:59:13 dsinger: The only way to prevent abuse of the MIT bridge is to keep some info restricted to key people 04:59:22 Ralph: I think we can bound the issue to the scheduled duration of the call 05:00:04 Ralph: The second part of my message to chairs is: Make sure there is someone who has the host role who ends the meeting. 05:02:13 ... That's so that if you don't pay attention to the list of participants then people can't hover and then use it after the meeting has otherwise ended. 05:02:27 Present+ Judy Brewer 05:02:47 vivien: I'm surprised that we have to go into the detail of how Cisco's system work. 05:03:38 dsinger: I'd suggest that we allow some extra time after the meeting and then automatically terminate the meeting. 05:03:52 Ralph: That might work. We obviously don't want a hard stop. 05:04:11 Action: Ralph Find out when the password is required to join a Webex meeting 05:05:00 Ralph: Another solution proposed was to schedule meetings for 15 minutes and then the host can keep the meeting open as long as is needed. 05:05:22 vivien: Can we put the meeting details on a page that requires authentication, like the old Zakim calendar page. 05:05:27 s/e./e? 05:05:39 Ralph: I suspect we can make that work. 05:06:58 dsinger: Noone is doing this on IRC though. 05:07:15 nigel: They are! We had someone spoof a staff name once. 05:07:43 dsinger: That's a lot of effort to go to for not much obvious benefit. 05:08:17 judy: I've had reports from staff in China that they get severe degradation of the call over time. 05:08:30 ... I think this may be both staff at Beihang and also other companies. 05:08:38 Ralph: In that case how was the connection made? 05:09:03 judy: I'm not sure - computer maybe. The quality switches between good and very poor 05:09:17 ... intermittently, for a few minutes each cycle. 05:09:26 ... This affects multiple staff. 05:09:43 Ralph: We do already have the issue where Webex thinks the call has been made but the phone has not rung. 05:10:09 judy: There's also a difficulty initiating calls in China, which can take several minutes. 05:10:39 ... Out of a 30 minute call you get 12-15 minutes of functional call time. 05:10:58 ... Also we need to track Cisco's improvements to accessibility. 05:11:09 dsinger: I thought Webex is end of life and there are no plans to change it? 05:11:29 Ralph: That's right, though they may change the UI software. 05:11:43 ... They're planning a replacement service, but it was supposed to be ready last June. 05:12:53 judy: Janina has this problem but has a workaround if there's someone to help. 05:13:21 -> http://www.webex.com/ciscospark/ Cisco Spark 05:19:14 nigel: Summary of issues gathered: 05:19:20 timeless has joined #webex 05:19:21 ... * Call initiation 05:19:24 ... * Call quality 05:19:27 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:19:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html timeless 05:19:44 nigel: * Participant monitoring 05:20:00 ... Call monitoring - who is making noise? 05:20:13 ... Call identification 05:20:20 ... Speed of administration 05:20:26 ... Call disconnections 05:20:35 ... Minimal technical requirements including Jave 05:20:38 a/ve/va 05:20:52 i/Nigel: let/scribe: Ralph 05:21:01 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:21:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html timeless 05:21:07 nigel: Call administration - requirement for a host to be present to initiate call 05:21:14 ... Need to explicitly end meeting 05:21:31 i|dsinger: The password leaking|scribe: nigel 05:21:33 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:21:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html timeless 05:21:35 nigel: Do we have mitigations to all of these issues? 05:21:45 Ralph: no. You can give me an action to find mitigations. 05:22:02 Action: Ralph to find mitigations for the issues we do not already have mitigations for 05:22:25 s|s;https://www.google.co.jp/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=pVIwVpWbJ8mm8weUqZqgCQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=wite:w3.org+mit.webex.com;https://www.google.fr/?q=site:w3.org+mit.webex.com;|| 05:22:35 s|https://www.google.co.jp/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=pVIwVpWbJ8mm8weUqZqgCQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=wite:w3.org+mit.webex.com|https://www.google.fr/?q=site:w3.org+mit.webex.com| 05:22:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:22:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html timeless 05:24:41 dsinger: Zakim used to have a caller number to name database. 05:24:44 s/including Jave/including Java 05:24:50 s|a/ve/va|| 05:24:58 Ralph: Cisco has flat out refused to provide caller ID. 05:25:13 dsinger: I think it's different - you're asking for name identification not phone number. 05:25:37 ... There's no privacy violation there because you've already volunteered your name. 05:25:51 vivien: There's already a name to phone number mapping for dial-out. 05:25:51 q+ to ask if cisco would provide tagged callers as opposed to caller id -- so if someone has an account w/ a preferred caller number, could it give that account name? 05:26:16 Ralph: So they could invert that. 05:26:18 ack 05:26:21 zakim, ack 05:26:21 I don't understand 'ack', nigel 05:26:28 s/ack/ 05:26:38 ack next 05:26:40 timeless, you wanted to ask if cisco would provide tagged callers as opposed to caller id -- so if someone has an account w/ a preferred caller number, could it give that account 05:26:40 ... name? 05:26:41 ack next 05:27:17 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:27:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html timeless 05:27:33 nigel: By the way, with Webex you can see who is making noise and mute people 05:27:43 dsinger: Why do we not want to allow screen sharing? 05:27:59 Ralph: Because it's not accessible. Also because everything important should be in the web. 05:28:15 you can see using the webex client, but many of us can't run the webex client 05:28:25 ... i'm missing the zakim bridge to that information 05:28:30 nigel: Do we also discourage whiteboard usage? 05:28:37 Ralph: again, it's an accessibility question. 05:29:05 nigel: timeless, yes, we've registered that not everyone can run the client. 05:29:09 (generally speaking, if someone uses a whiteboard, someone is expected to record a description in the logs once they're done whiteboarding) 05:29:41 dsinger: So Zakim will be able to tell you the code? 05:29:52 zakim, code? 05:29:52 no conference has been identified yet, Ralph 05:29:59 Ralph: Yes, you can now tell Zakim "this is XYZ" and it will remember it. 05:30:07 ... And there's syntax for permanently remembering it. 05:30:09 zakim, this is Nigel and Ralph's chat about WebEx not matching W3C practice 05:30:10 got it, Ralph 05:30:16 zakim, code? 05:30:16 I have been told this is Nigel and Ralph's chat about WebEx not matching W3C practice 05:30:28 zakim, remember this description 05:30:28 I don't understand 'remember this description', Ralph 05:30:31 Ralph: then "zakim, code?" returns that. 05:30:32 zakim, save this description 05:30:32 this conference description has been saved, Ralph 05:30:49 Ralph: and "zakim, save this description" associates it with the IRC channel. 05:30:57 dsinger has changed the topic to: W3c Elaborates Behavior Exceeding Xpectations (webex) 05:30:58 ... At some point I will teach Zakim some synonyms. 05:31:07 rrsagent, make minutes 05:31:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html nigel 05:31:45 nigel: We're out of time - I think we did what we wanted. Thanks everyone! 05:31:49 rrsagent, make minutes 05:31:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-minutes.html nigel 05:43:22 dsinger has joined #webex 05:43:32 dsinger has left #webex 07:16:03 Ralph has joined #webex 07:18:06 zakim, bye 07:18:06 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Masato, Ohura, Judy, Brewer 07:18:06 Zakim has left #webex 07:19:21 rrsagent, bye 07:19:21 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-actions.rdf : 07:19:21 ACTION: Ralph Find out when the password is required to join a Webex meeting [1] 07:19:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-irc#T05-04-11 07:19:21 ACTION: Ralph to find mitigations for the issues we do not already have mitigations for [2] 07:19:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-webex-irc#T05-22-02