04:52:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #paged-media
04:52:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-paged-media-irc
04:52:11 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
04:52:18 <dauwhe> ... there are two ways of looking at how frag and pagination can happen
04:52:40 <dauwhe> ... the automatic way the user or browser agent works for print
04:52:47 <dauwhe> ... defined in css-page and gcpm
04:52:52 <dauwhe> ... there are two more specs
04:52:56 <dauwhe> ... one is css-break
04:53:03 <dauwhe> ... which is going into CR
04:53:32 <dauwhe> ... Fragmentation talks about what happens at page boundaries
04:53:43 <dauwhe> ... if this is a css box generated from a div, perhaps it will break
04:53:51 <dauwhe> ... maybe its decorations would be preserved or copied
04:54:02 <dauwhe> ivan: this is widows, page-break-before, etc
04:54:04 <dauwhe> rossen_: yes
04:54:16 <dauwhe> ... this is where magic happens, where we start fragmenting the content
04:54:23 <dauwhe> ... there are two more specs that are relevant
04:54:27 <dauwhe> ... there's CSS Regions
04:54:34 <dauwhe> ... that is a primitive
04:54:57 <dauwhe> ... we've thought of it as a basic primitive that lets me create this line
04:55:12 <dauwhe> ... the other ones are multicol and page
04:55:20 <dauwhe> ... regions is a primitive applicable to any box
04:55:28 <dauwhe> ... i want to create the magic line
04:55:35 <dauwhe> ... so that my content will be fragmented
04:55:41 <dauwhe> ... css regions is stable
04:55:47 <dauwhe> ... there's one issue
04:56:02 <dauwhe> ... with regions you can do primitive templating
04:56:12 <dauwhe> ... take content from one place and put it somewhere else
04:56:31 <dauwhe> ... I think that using css regions you can create anything that has to do with fragmentation
04:56:41 <dauwhe> ... we use regions for all our fragmentation in IE and Edge
04:56:48 <dauwhe> ... print preview is based on regions
04:56:57 <dauwhe> ... it's very flexible and easy to use primitive
04:57:11 <dauwhe> ... a lot of digital publishign views in windows app ecosystem were done using regions
04:57:25 <dauwhe> ... i mentioned multicol as another way of frag. as if there was a page
04:57:30 <dauwhe> ... and there's css-overflow
04:57:40 <dauwhe> ... which was brought up as competition to regions
04:57:59 <dauwhe> ... similar to regions, its a primitive to create a box that breaks and auto-generates rest of boxes
04:58:15 <dauwhe> ... one more page, one more page... overflow does it automatically
04:58:19 <dauwhe> ... it's the repeater template
04:58:55 <dauwhe> ... overflow had some work in May 2015
04:59:23 <dauwhe> ivan: as a user it bothers me that there are two similar things
05:00:14 <dauwhe> rossen_: I agree
05:00:35 <dauwhe> liam: we spent years in FO working on a slightly more complicated page area
05:00:44 <dauwhe> ... with page masters which are templates
05:00:53 <dauwhe> ... lots of difficulty
05:00:58 <dauwhe> ... we had simple page master
05:01:07 <dauwhe> ... by taking away all the magic
05:01:16 <dauwhe> ... a problem we had with page areas
05:01:24 <dauwhe> ... people may need several hundred master pages
05:01:32 <dauwhe> ... need one for an odd page, one for even
05:01:36 <dauwhe> ... one for :first
05:02:01 <dauwhe> ... so you need to define with conditional content
05:02:17 <dauwhe> rossen: did similar stuff with regioins
05:02:34 <dauwhe> ... for two reasons, I wanted to learn this stuff
05:02:45 <dauwhe> ... and discover if regions is the most basic primitive we can come up with
05:02:56 <dauwhe> ... I sympathize with your problem with complex templates
05:03:04 <dauwhe> ... especially when you do content matching
05:03:14 <dauwhe> ... [draws at whiteboard]
05:03:56 <dauwhe> ... you need rules on how content gets placed
05:04:01 <dauwhe> ... it gets complex quickly
05:04:25 <dauwhe> ... this is the reason why we looked at pagination and digital publishing presentation as an application model
05:04:37 <dauwhe> ... we satisfied ourselves with regions based on elements
05:04:49 <dauwhe> ... and giving people script apis to tell when content is fragments
05:04:54 <dauwhe> ... and the ability to make more boxes
05:05:06 <dauwhe> ... so you're exposing the most basic funtionality on the app layer
05:05:31 <dauwhe> ... I strongly believe we shouldn't do templating in the platform
05:05:39 <dauwhe> liam: people at publishers are varied
05:05:46 <dauwhe> ... most publishers don't have lots of programmers
05:05:52 <dauwhe> ... we will hope for frameworks
05:06:18 <dauwhe> ... the problem space is what is the solution for the most degeneate case when you don't control the content
05:06:30 <dauwhe> ... lots of xml feeds coming into a reader, for example
05:06:37 <dauwhe> ... going back to the status
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05:06:46 <dauwhe> ... are you missing anything?
05:06:54 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, that's good
05:07:04 <kwkbtr> There is IDPF informational document EPUB Adaptive Layout, which defines its own page layout processing model http://www.idpf.org/epub/pgt/
05:07:06 <dauwhe> ... this last thing bothers me
05:07:26 <dauwhe> ... this means that publishers has to have the knowledge to add scripting to get pagination
05:07:46 <dauwhe> ... in my experience, people who work at publishers who know what to do are rare
05:08:08 <dauwhe> brady_duga: now that's done by people creating reading systems, shims on top of browsers
05:08:23 <dauwhe> rossen: these publishers are not able to handle and present rich media
05:08:38 <dauwhe> ... in the more modern media, then they'll be lost quickly
05:08:46 <dauwhe> ... media should be interactive
05:08:59 <dauwhe> ivan: if i am a scholar and just want to publish my paper in a professional way
05:09:06 <dauwhe> ... some need interaction, but most dont
05:09:17 <dauwhe> ... just want really good looking output which paginates properly in epub
05:09:26 <dauwhe> ... if even for that I need scripting then I'm dead
05:09:37 <dauwhe> rossen: you as author should not care about scripting
05:09:49 <dauwhe> ... I, as creator of reading system, will need to know scripting
05:10:00 <dauwhe> ... I'll have to do interactive stuff on top of the scripting
05:10:07 <dauwhe> brady_duga: one hole in this world
05:10:15 <dauwhe> ... we have the power to do these layouts
05:10:27 <dauwhe> ... but you as the author might want to change something
05:10:48 <dauwhe> ... if author scripts this, it interferes with reading system scripting
05:10:56 <dauwhe> ... there's no declarative way for author to describe page
05:11:15 <dauwhe> ???: if I publish in a journal, i have little say in how the content is presented
05:11:17 <dauwhe> ivan: true
05:11:26 <dauwhe> ... but there's more and more self publishing
05:11:52 <dauwhe> ???: you said you as provider of ebook reading syastem wants cool output
05:12:12 <dauwhe> ... it's like publisher, printer, author need to agree
05:12:22 <dauwhe> ... true for lots of ebook presentation systems
05:12:43 <dauwhe> Rossen: I've worked on lots of these
05:13:05 <dauwhe> ... for a11y reasons and ease of use, end user what to be empowered on presentation
05:13:17 <dauwhe> ... "i don't want it to be paginated" I want to scroll and read
05:13:37 <dauwhe> ... I have arthritis and I can't scroll. can you allow auto scrolling
05:13:45 <dauwhe> ... you have author, publisher, printer, and user
05:13:57 <dauwhe> ... four people disjointly trying to make the experience a success
05:14:04 <dauwhe> ... css has a big part of it, but not all of it
05:14:16 <dauwhe> ... demanding that we cover all of it is too ambitioous
05:14:41 <dauwhe> ivan: it's true that you begin to see companies that offer entire publication environment
05:14:51 <dauwhe> ... behind the scenes they do what you say
05:14:58 <dauwhe> glazou: I would like one thing in terms of spec
05:15:09 <dauwhe> ... what is missing is the @slot rule
05:15:46 <dauwhe> rossen: it's creating boxes for regions
05:16:16 <dauwhe> glazou: a page is not an element, so you need to make boxes for content to flow into
05:17:17 <dauwhe> rossen: this kills the printer; I now can't attach handlers to the pages, etc
05:17:44 <dauwhe> brady_duga: as a reading system implentor i want to create and manipulate css boxes
05:17:51 <dauwhe> rossen: we're trying to do that in houdini
05:18:04 <dauwhe> ... that will allow you to interact with visuals just as you interact with dom
05:18:07 <kwkbtr> @slot is defined in CSS Pagination Templates Module (not published) https://drafts.csswg.org/css-page-template/
05:18:20 <dauwhe> glazou: you will still need a declarative way of crating boxes
05:18:25 <dauwhe> rossen: yes
05:18:40 <dauwhe> ???: will this have css script?
05:18:52 <dauwhe> rossen: there's a css object model
05:18:57 <ivan> s/???/Sven/
05:19:17 <dauwhe> ... what we were referring to is a targeted effort in extending and describing all of the visuals that are now hidden from the author
05:20:44 <dauwhe> brady_duga: if there's an exposed api for manipulating these things it makes it more interesting
05:20:50 <dauwhe> ... more people will understand
05:21:21 <dauwhe> rossen: did we steal too much of your time
05:21:58 <dauwhe> murakami: Vivliostyle is now creating a browser-based implemention based on Peter Sorotokin's page templates, we're implemting GCPM
05:22:04 <dauwhe> ... and paged media features
05:22:35 <dauwhe> ... I hope the future standards incorporate templates with gcmp features like xref and foootnotes using css regions mechanism
05:22:43 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
05:22:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-paged-media-minutes.html ivan
05:22:51 <dauwhe> ... I think css page templates / gcpm level 4
05:23:00 <ivan> Meeting: CSS Paging Breakout, TPAC, Sapporo
05:23:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
05:23:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-paged-media-minutes.html ivan
05:23:21 <dauwhe> ... I think this will be done successfully
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05:25:06 <dauwhe> we're exploring using regions to accomplish all the gcpm tasks
05:25:16 <dauwhe> ???: I have a question about regions
05:25:27 <dauwhe> ... how to convince other vendors to implement regions
05:26:51 <dauwhe> rossen: regions is very hard to polyfill
05:27:05 <dauwhe> murakami: vivliostyle is a kind of polyfill
05:27:40 <dauwhe> ... I hope all browsers get regions
05:27:58 <dauwhe> ... or houdini allows an easier polyfill of regions
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05:28:18 <dauwhe> rossen_: fragmentation is mostly implemented
05:28:37 <dauwhe> ... at start, people told me I was crazy
05:28:47 <dauwhe> ... it's pulling a lot of legacy behavour that already works
05:28:53 <dauwhe> ... it was mostly about solidifying the model
05:28:58 <dauwhe> ... cleaning up the concepts
05:29:11 <dauwhe> ... I don't think implementations are too far from the spec
05:29:22 <dauwhe> ivan: let me put it another way
05:29:41 <dauwhe> ... is there a commitement of major browser vendors that this will be implemented
05:30:07 <dauwhe> rossen_: two implementors in the room have done this
05:33:34 <dauwhe> murakami: we're out of time
05:33:42 <dauwhe> ... one more topic is css page floats
05:33:50 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
05:33:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-paged-media-minutes.html ivan
05:34:11 <dauwhe> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-page-floats/
05:34:22 <dauwhe> ... that will help positioning boxes in a more robust way
05:34:32 <dauwhe> ... similar to css exclusions
05:34:44 <dauwhe> ... but has features collision avoidance
05:34:56 <dauwhe> ... that helps with magazine and book layouts
05:35:41 <ivan> rssagent, draft minutes
05:35:56 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
05:35:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items