23:27:14 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 23:27:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-irc 23:27:21 rrsagent, set log public 23:27:51 Meeting: DPUB IG F2F first day, 2015-10-29, Sapporo 23:28:00 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 23:28:10 Chair: Tzviya 23:28:39 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#First_day_.2829_Oct.29 23:28:45 ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#First_day_.2829_Oct.29 23:30:50 dauwhe has joined #dpub 23:30:57 clapierre has joined #DPUB 23:31:01 Present+ Charles_LaPierre, Tzviya_Siegman, Vlad_Levantovsky, Dave_Cramer, Karen_Myers, Rob_Sanderson, Heather_Flanagan, Liam_Quin 23:31:31 tzviya has joined #dpub 23:31:45 Present+ Lars_Svensson 23:32:30 Karen has joined #dpub 23:33:50 LarsG has joined #dpub 23:34:01 present+ LarsG 23:36:15 shepazu has joined #dpub 23:36:37 Jeff_Xu has joined #dpub 23:38:57 baba has joined #dpub 23:49:06 glazou has joined #dpub 23:50:33 myles has joined #dpub 23:51:56 present+ Karen 23:52:21 present+ glazou 23:53:12 present+ myles 23:55:23 brady_duga has joined #dpub 23:56:26 Zakim, what is best in life? 23:56:26 I don't understand your question, dauwhe. 23:56:53 MATH 23:57:02 because M+A+T+H=42 23:57:40 Zakim, best in life is MATH because M+A+T+H=42 23:57:40 I don't understand 'best in life is MATH because M+A+T+H=42', glazou 23:57:41 present+ Jeff_Xu 23:57:57 murakami has joined #dpub 23:57:59 present+ Liam_Quin 23:57:59 Newcomer's in the room think we're all speaking telepathically. 23:58:07 present+ duga 23:58:20 Heather__: aren't we ?-) 23:58:46 You mean, the entire dpub group is IN MY HEAD??? 23:58:48 AAAAAHHHHH! 23:59:05 BRAINS, BRAAAIIIINS 00:00:44 tjena 00:01:41 ScribeNick: glazou 00:01:44 Chair: tzviya 00:01:55 RRSAgent, make logs public 00:01:56 azaroth_ has joined #dpub 00:02:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 00:02:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html glazou 00:02:31 tzviya: let's get started 00:02:39 Bobby has joined #dpub 00:02:41 present+ Rob_Sanderson 00:02:48 tzviya: intros first 00:03:05 tzviya Sigman, co-chair DPUB 00:03:26 Dave Cramer, Hachette, and also CSS WG 00:03:43 Murakami-san, Vivliostyle 00:04:16 Judy has joined #dpub 00:04:18 Jeff Xu, Kobo 00:04:30 present+ Tzviya 00:04:30 Florian has joined #dpub 00:04:33 present+ Judy 00:04:35 present+ Karen 00:04:37 present+ Florian 00:04:39 present+ myles 00:04:45 SteveZ has joined #dpub 00:04:58 present+ 00:04:59 Charles Lapierre, Benetech 00:05:16 Daniel Glazman, Disruptive Innovations, ex-cochair CSS WG, BlueGriffon author 00:05:20 present+ mgylling 00:05:23 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 00:05:37 Lars Svensson, german national library 00:05:59 Karen Myers, W3C Staff 00:06:11 Bobby Tung 00:06:14 Bobby Tung, invited Expert 00:06:19 Steven Zilles, Adobe 00:06:35 Liam Quinn, W3C 00:06:55 Florian Rivoal, Vivliostyle 00:07:20 Myles Maxfield, Apple 00:07:32 tzviya has joined #dpub 00:07:44 tzviya has joined #dpub 00:08:22 rob sanderson, stanford Universuty 00:08:36 Benjamin Young, Hypothesis 00:08:38 Brady Duga, Google 00:08:44 Vlad has joined #dpub 00:08:53 Rob Sanderson, Stanford University, co-chair of Annotation WG, editor of annotation use cases doc for DPUB 00:08:53 s/Liam Quinn/Liam Quin/ 00:09:04 Ben Whittam Smith 00:09:12 Ben Whittman-Smith, thomson Reuters 00:09:14 Ted O'Connor 00:09:17 (apple) 00:09:19 s/Universuty/University/ 00:09:42 Judy Brewer, A11Y 00:10:01 Johannes Wilm 00:10:26 Takao Baba, BPS. 00:10:28 Heather Flanagan 00:10:40 Vladimir Levantowski 00:11:07 Ivan Hermann 00:11:26 and Markus Gylling, IDPF and DAISY 00:12:00 s/Levantowski/Levantovsky 00:12:08 tzviya: ok, already ahead of schedule 00:12:10 https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details 00:13:07 (digression about the timbl speech-rate unit) 00:13:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 00:13:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html glazou 00:13:33 tzviya: Markus already knows what we deal with, we can move on 00:13:38 tzviya: summary of current work 00:13:46 ... what we want to accomplish in near future 00:13:52 ... don't want to speak alone 00:13:54 ... use the queue 00:14:07 ... I put together some notes in last 10 minutes 00:14:13 ... we rechartered and shifted focus 00:14:20 ... we're an IG, we publish notes 00:14:28 ... Portable Web Publications published 00:14:38 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/ 00:14:43 ... EPUB+WEB 00:14:57 ... we want to have ability to have pubs available online AND offline 00:15:05 ... almost at full functionality of the web 00:15:20 ... right now, most ebooks don't have web-level functionality 00:15:30 ... no URI to a book or to resources in a book 00:15:38 ... only ISBN 00:15:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/ 00:15:46 ... CSS functions in limited capacity 00:16:04 tzviya: searching is limited too 00:16:15 ... we also want good offline experience like archiving 00:16:26 ... there's a premium focus on a11y in the epub world 00:16:35 ... not sure everyone here is familiar with EPUB 00:16:42 ... EPUB is the format of the IDPF 00:16:48 ... primary format of ebooks today 00:17:02 ... Amazon Kindle does not use EPUB but take it as an input format 00:17:09 ... ask EUB experts for more info 00:17:12 s/EUB/EPUB 00:17:23 ... this is main focus of PWP 00:17:37 ... so many things have to happen to have offline/online equivalent 00:17:46 ... for now, it's mostly an offline package 00:17:52 ... we want to improve that experience 00:18:06 ... CSS there's been a lot of work there, dauwhe being the liaison 00:18:16 bigbluehat has joined #dpub 00:18:17 ... has published some modules like GCPM 00:18:26 Present+ Benjamin_Young 00:18:30 ... thousand of years of print typography not represented in CSS right now 00:18:38 ... we'd like that to happen too 00:18:53 ... html+CSS to be used for print requires more work in CSS 00:19:06 (mgylling on phone now) 00:19:19 (tzviya summarizes for mgylling ) 00:19:42 tzviya: dauwhe added a method for initial letters for instance 00:19:51 dauwhe: "drop caps" is the right term 00:20:16 tzviya: another area is our FPWD publishing module of ARIA 00:20:30 tzviya: publishing has a lot of things there, chapters, glossaries, etc. 00:20:48 ... in EPUB world, we have some old XML-based vocabularies 200 elements 00:20:54 ... need a way to express these terms 00:20:59 ... in the html world 00:21:10 ... we spent a lot of time looking for a way to do that well 00:21:36 zakim, who is here? 00:21:36 Present: Charles_LaPierre, Tzviya_Siegman, Vlad_Levantovsky, Dave_Cramer, Karen_Myers, Rob_Sanderson, Heather_Flanagan, Liam_Quin, Lars_Svensson, LarsG, glazou, myles, Jeff_Xu, 00:21:37 ... how can we declare a given element is this or that? 00:21:40 ... duga, Judy, Florian, SteveZ, mgylling, Benjamin_Young 00:21:40 On IRC I see bigbluehat, Vlad, tzviya, johanneswilm, Florian, Judy, Bobby, azaroth, murakami, brady_duga, myles, glazou, baba, Jeff_Xu, shepazu, LarsG, Karen, clapierre, dauwhe, 00:21:40 ... RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, ShaneM, Heather__, liam, mgylling, rego, plinss, astearns, iank, Bert, trackbot 00:21:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 00:21:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html glazou 00:21:50 tzviya: so FPWD now 00:21:56 ... cleanup to do, already reviewed 00:21:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/ 00:22:02 ... formal review period done 00:22:06 tzviya: second WD soon 00:22:12 tzviya: questions? 00:22:17 q? 00:22:18 ivan: maybe one comment 00:22:39 ... we always refer to EPUB but everything we do is for publications in general and not only EPUB 00:22:49 ... we hit a project in italy that uses a profile of html 00:22:59 ... they use the same ARIA terms we defined 00:23:07 ... that's good, exactly what we want 00:23:12 ... publications in general 00:23:15 tzviya: good point, thanks 00:23:22 tzviya: similar example in US 00:23:34 tzviya: ok, we have an a11y TF 00:23:43 ... doing a lot of work despite not lot of output 00:23:47 ... clapierre leading it 00:23:55 ... longdesc for instance 00:24:14 ... affects significantly publishing community 00:24:24 Ralph has joined #dpub 00:24:32 ... all students need to access content equally for instance 00:24:58 ... our a11y TF researching with the ARIA people about that 00:25:07 q+ 00:25:09 SteveZ has joined #dpub 00:25:20 ack judy 00:25:28 Judy: thank you tzviya for mentioning that joint activity 00:25:34 ... something we try to get right 00:25:55 q+ 00:25:58 ... the general case we try to help is extended type desc for multiple image types 00:26:07 ... longdesc feature 00:26:16 ... not well supported by browsers 00:26:27 ... trying to evolve that into new ARIA feature 00:26:34 ... but same architectural concerns 00:26:49 ... we were able to get more interests than previous efforts 00:27:00 csarven has joined #dpub 00:27:09 ... more interest this time but still lacking browser interest and implems 00:27:24 ... yesterday we had confirmation it's coming from MSFT and Moz 00:27:29 present+ csarven 00:27:32 q? 00:27:44 Judy: so thanks DPUB 00:28:01 ack cl 00:28:13 clapierre: let me mention those descriptions are not only for images but any element 00:28:31 ... can be also a file representation and not only a description 00:28:42 s/for multiple image types/for *complex* image types/ 00:28:44 ... multiple things can be attached to a single element 00:29:03 ... may have to add things to details 00:29:05 q+ 00:29:11 ... for source linking 00:29:29 Judy: my understanding is that it's looking pretty good 00:29:39 ... some groups want to add more complexity to details 00:29:47 ... conversations about it yesterday 00:29:54 ack judy 00:30:24 tzviya: other thingw we're exploring 00:30:33 ... (list minute taker did not get) 00:30:41 ... lot of exploratory work 00:30:44 s/thingw/things/ 00:30:50 ... future of mathml on web and maths in general 00:30:58 ... lot of work in coming year from this work 00:31:02 q+ 00:31:06 ... another clear area is identifiers 00:31:15 ... big issue with PWP is idents 00:31:17 s/longdesc feature/originally dpub's request was to piggy-back this on the longdesc feature that was restored to html5 by extension/ 00:31:20 ... and fragment idents 00:31:30 q? 00:31:42 ivan: one of first work we did was collect use cases for annotations 00:31:50 ... separate note published a year ago 00:31:54 s/new ARIA feature/new ARIA feature, describedAt/ 00:31:59 ... very important for educational world 00:32:07 annotation use cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-annotation-uc/ 00:32:28 ivan: what happened there after publication, we established a separate WG on annotations 00:32:30 s/get more interests/get more interest in one of Apple's proposed solution, details/ 00:32:42 ivan: not part of this IG any more 00:32:48 ... first spin-off from here 00:32:59 ... we also published a year ago another note on metadata 00:33:06 ... enormous importance for publishing world 00:33:20 ... whole biz workflow relies on enormous amounts of metadata 00:33:38 ... we try to understand if there are issues around W3C tech 00:33:45 ... to handle metadata requirements 00:34:00 ... so series of interviews with different people in this are (~15) 00:34:04 ... to get an overview 00:34:08 metadata note: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-metadata/ 00:34:16 ivan: two interesting outcome 00:34:32 ... what we have at W3C for metadata is perfectly adequate for pub industry 00:34:40 ... they have major problems with vocabularies 00:34:51 ... but we decided it's not something for W3C 00:34:56 ... not the right org for that 00:35:09 ... there are orgs out there better adapted to that work 00:35:35 ... second outcome, there is a need for standard language for right management and rights expression 00:35:48 q? 00:35:57 ... we're in the process now to look if we should start a WG about that 00:36:05 ... breakout session about that yesterday 00:36:10 ... this IG has some influence 00:36:20 ... mgylling anything we forgot ? 00:36:29 ack fl 00:36:49 Florian: wrt STEM (sp?) math exploration 00:37:07 ... CSS has the Houdini TF to explore low-level primitives that can help 00:37:12 ... one thing on radar is maths 00:37:20 ... not high priority for browser vendors 00:37:27 ... but it's on radar 00:37:41 ... being in touch with Houdini TF would be a good idea 00:37:54 tzviya: yes! we are liasing with Houdini, please help :) 00:38:05 q+ 00:38:12 ivan: current liaison comes from mathjax 00:38:42 ... not impersonating Peter, mathjax is looking at th whole platform 00:38:54 ... we have given hope on implem of mathml by browser vendors 00:39:02 ... but reality is that 00:39:05 ... not happened in years and years 00:39:24 ... approach they're looking at is creating a layer on client-side based on html and css 00:39:48 ... down-side is that mathml a11y is forgotten a bit 00:40:05 ... mathml module with ARIA to bridge the gaps 00:40:26 ivan: industry has been longing for mathml implems forever 00:40:36 ... just did not happen the way we wanted 00:40:43 Florian: I'm afraid I share those concerns 00:40:50 ... unlikely to happen 00:40:56 ... houdini is not about mathml 00:41:01 ... but primitives that would help 00:41:09 ... we'll see if it reaches success 00:41:18 ivan: mathjax looks at that too 00:41:25 ... pages rendered with mathjax are slow 00:41:38 tzviya: reach out to Peter 00:41:56 ack kar 00:42:05 Karen: I've a question and a comment 00:42:24 ... question is what type profile people would be useful for houdini ? 00:42:52 scribenick: dauwhe 00:43:07 glazou: houdini tf is something we've needed forever 00:43:19 ... the rendering engines are pretty open on the upper layers 00:43:26 ... and have been black boxes at low level 00:43:34 ... which prevents us from prototyping new stuff 00:43:41 ... when you have a layout polyfill 00:43:52 ... you can't do that without reaching the rendering engine 00:43:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:43:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 00:44:10 ... something like MathML need such primitives to create the specific rendering 00:44:15 ... which is not the normal html rendering 00:44:26 ... houdini is not specifically about these other languages like MathML 00:44:42 ... the implementors may not have the right knowledge of what could be done with houdini 00:44:51 ... so the best thing is to bring them use cases and feedback 00:45:05 ... the mathjax community looking at houdini is excellent 00:45:11 ... but we need more data 00:45:20 tzviya: they're publishing a white paper 00:45:28 glazou: any strong expression of interest will help 00:45:33 ... houdini is not one doc 00:45:38 ... it's lots of different things 00:45:46 ... parser, the box tree, painting... 00:45:59 ... we are in exploration mode with some authoring of specs 00:46:02 ... any input is good input 00:46:14 ... if publishing needs, if math needs, and we're aware 00:46:18 q+ 00:46:28 ... I agree Houdini TF is not visible enough 00:46:33 ... maybe you can help 00:46:44 ... input input input requirements (x3) 00:46:52 Florian: agree with what daniel said 00:46:59 ... because we are exploring 00:47:05 ... in person input is effective 00:47:11 ... being around the whiteboard 00:47:15 q+ 00:47:22 ... is important 00:47:30 tzviya: so we need updates from houdini 00:47:37 ... houdini itself is a black box 00:47:46 ... we need more info from then on how to get involved 00:47:50 glazou: well taken 00:47:58 tzviya: florian can help 00:48:05 SteveZ: houdini is amorphous 00:48:10 ... it's a bunch of different things 00:48:15 ... and it's very informal 00:48:30 ... so even csswg folks don't have a good idea of what's going on 00:48:40 q- 00:48:46 johannes: there are meetings 00:48:56 ... we need people who implement stuff 00:49:13 ... Peter could show that I couldn't put this charatcter there because reasons 00:49:29 tzviya: ivan reminded me that Dave, with input from the IG, put together a CSS priorities list 00:49:44 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html 00:50:02 glazou: one more bit of info 00:50:13 ... houdini started as corridor conversation during tpac last year 00:50:28 ... there was strong interest by some individuals in browser vendors 00:50:35 .... then the vendors realized it was a good thing 00:50:42 ... but not all vendors are interested in all parts 00:50:43 q? 00:50:57 ... moz could be seen as reluctant to suppy access to the frame tree 00:51:08 tzviya: but they support math, so we good 00:51:15 glazou: but there are many other things like music 00:51:25 ... hard to express with regular box model 00:51:33 ... you have books about music 00:51:44 tzviya: we have a member from Note Flight 00:51:56 glazou: input from potential customers does matter 00:52:02 q? 00:52:10 ack da 00:52:12 scribenick: Karen 00:52:28 Dauwhe: You mentioned it's helpful to provide feedback to Houdini standing around the white board 00:52:33 …there are some challenges to that 00:52:41 …those are by people who are writing the rendering and layout code 00:52:50 …There are not that many people in the world who understand that 00:52:57 …So some challenges of many levels of translation 00:53:07 …to get to the language we want inside the renderers 00:53:13 Daniel: We have same problem in CSS WG 00:53:30 …problem of making web designers and CSS developers, implementers discuss because we don't speak the same language 00:53:37 …An industry that reaches out with this message 00:53:42 q+ 00:53:47 ack fl 00:53:51 …the current languages of the web are not enough; we need an extension of that 00:53:56 …will be a good enough message 00:54:09 scibenick: Dave 00:54:14 florian: if we have people who have been implementing polyfills 00:54:28 ... these people are sufficiently technical to engage with houdini devs 00:54:34 q+ 00:54:49 ack Liam 00:54:49 liam, you wanted to note performance 00:54:52 ... they can understand the problem and the white board 00:54:52 q- 00:54:55 q+ 00:55:16 liam: some of the proposed apis could math mathjax massively faster 00:55:18 q+ 00:55:24 ... since you don't have to create lots of extra DOM elements 00:55:36 ... although it sounds like it's adding more scripting 00:55:43 ack gla 00:55:46 ... it's eliminating other scripting 00:55:53 glazou: something that karen could do 00:56:01 ... is like the industry meet-up 00:56:12 ... could be houdini meet-up with industry(s) 00:56:27 ... who are interested in extending the rendering 00:56:43 Karen: when is the next F2F 00:56:49 glazou: next is in Sydney 00:56:59 SteveZ: but there will be one in May in the US 00:57:04 glazou: yes, that will be easier 00:57:15 Sidney early february 00:57:29 ivan: peter won't go to australia 00:57:34 ack brady 00:57:35 US west coast early may 00:57:36 tzviya: let's take logistics offline 00:57:45 brady_duga: q about participating in houdini 00:58:01 ... what is it 00:58:15 glazou: it's a joint task force between CSSWG or TAG 00:58:37 glazou: and we can liase 00:58:42 q? 00:59:03 Florian: just show up 00:59:36 Houdini 00:59:49 glazou: observing houdini meeting is likely OK 00:59:52 ack je 01:00:22 jeff_xu: we are often patching rendering engine 01:00:33 ... we are likely to explore features useful for epub 01:00:47 ... if we can convince browser engine to implement low layer 01:00:53 ... so we can implement high layer on top 01:01:08 ... we can cooperate more with browser vendors 01:01:21 ivan: to close this discussion 01:01:32 ... mathjax should have this white paper out 01:01:42 ... it's not on houdini 01:01:55 ... it's on the future strategy of mathjax as organization 01:02:00 ... that will help with discussion 01:02:07 tzviya: coming pack to DPUB 01:02:33 ... i'm finding it interesting that the only thing that generated conversation was intersection of math and CSS 01:02:45 ivan: i see two areas that will generate lots of tech discussion 01:02:49 ... one is identifiers 01:03:05 ... and how they fit into web architecture 01:03:22 ... the other area which is exciting is on borderline of magic and mystery 01:03:44 ... the generic architecture for portable web publications is based on heavy use of service workers 01:03:57 ... they carry the magic to hide difference between online and offline 01:04:07 ... as well as between packaged and unpackaged 01:04:18 ... we had a discussion last week with jake archibald 01:04:31 ... and our needs are in line with what that community is looking 01:04:36 ... at 01:04:40 ... but non-trivial 01:05:03 q? 01:05:04 ... these are the two areas where we can have quite some discussions 01:05:08 tzviya: I think so too 01:05:21 ... is everyone eager for coffee? 01:05:59 01:18:56 HeatherF has joined #dpub 01:19:50 HeatherF has joined #dpub 01:25:54 myles has joined #dpub 01:26:49 liam has joined #dpub 01:29:09 Karen has joined #dpub 01:29:23 Judy has joined #dpub 01:36:51 Karen has joined #dpub 01:38:51 Bert1 has joined #dpub 01:41:51 Bobby has joined #dpub 01:42:13 present+ Bert Bos 01:44:48 ivan has joined #dpub 01:44:56 Present+ Bert_Bos, Richard_Ishida 01:45:17 murakami has joined #dpub 01:47:13 SteveZ has joined #dpub 01:50:44 Karen has joined #dpub 01:51:33 azaroth has joined #dpub 01:51:40 scribenick: azaroth 01:52:25 Tzviya: Everyone say hi to Markus 01:52:29 Everyone: Hi Markus 01:52:31 Markus: Hi! 01:52:54 tzviya: Shares projection of static 01:53:19 ... [Epub 3.1] 01:53:45 ... We talked about EPUB in he last session. You may have noticed some overlap, so good idea to tell you about what's happening in the IDPF 01:53:59 ... In the past few months IDPF has started EPUB 3.1, the first major revision of EPUB 3 01:54:07 ... Dave and I are working on that. Markus is the CTO of IDPF 01:54:15 ... He doesn't sleep 01:54:28 ... I co-chair that group with Markus 01:54:36 ... Dave is actively involved, so we're going to do an overview 01:54:45 ... I apologize for the ugliness of the slides 01:54:54 ... This does not reflect on Dave's ability to make beautiful slides 01:55:08 ... So. [Formal Work Plan slide] 01:55:33 ... Formal work plan is at the link. (Link Plz) Based on a request to IDPF membership for what they want to see 01:55:41 ... Boiled down the pages and pages into a few areas 01:56:02 ... IDPF has main specs and satellite ones. Some confusion as to what goes hwere. Requests to consolidate and simplify 01:56:17 ... A few different ways to implement scripting. 01:56:27 q+ when the slides are done 01:56:32 ... A lot of OWP alignment, some of which from this group, but also from dig pub world 01:56:41 q+ to comment but only when all slides are done 01:56:46 ... Plus limited set of new features 01:57:11 ... EPUB is widely adopted. 3 was published in 2011. A huge change from 2. Took a long time to shift, some publishers still haven't shifted 01:57:25 ... Intended to be backwards compatible, but not everyone has taken advantage of this 01:57:41 ... Not being backwards compatible would crash the industry, so people wouldn't do it 01:57:41 q+ 01:57:46 ... Hope to have WD in January 01:57:56 dauwhe: Thankfully not holidays before then ;) 01:58:05 tzviya: GOod that there are multiple religions :) 01:58:45 glazou: Comment on adding scripting to reading agents. In EPUB world there are so many profiles of web specs with restrictions and additions 01:58:54 ... Afraid that there will be restrictions in what readers will accept 01:59:00 ... And extensions would be worse. 01:59:08 r12a has joined #dpub 01:59:13 ... I expect there will be strong resistance to this from rendering engine vendors 01:59:31 q? 01:59:34 ... If scripting is added to readers, it must be full scripting. All of it. Period. If not it's doomed to fail 01:59:43 ... Saw such restrictions in ??? and it didn't work 01:59:45 liam has joined #dpub 01:59:56 ... No editors able to handle it, and authors won't look at hte spec to see what can be done or not 02:00:32 ... Second comment: schedule. Don't laugh yet. One of the biggest issues for epub 3.0 was the speed of delivery. Was written and reviewed and delivered quite fast 02:00:58 ... so a LOT of bugs remained in the spec. Ones that no one noticed. No errata, and some made it almost unimplementable 02:01:09 ... so huge that it made the spec useless from some points of view 02:01:33 ... Here we have FPWD in Jan, and Rec in October, so no tests and a process that will be faster than 3.0 02:01:36 ... Very concerning. 02:01:41 ... I don't think this is reasonable. 02:01:55 tzviya: We didn't show you the rest of the slides yet. Markus? 02:02:05 mgylling: Finish the slides 02:02:24 Florian: I just wanted to know if you plan to speak about * on backwards compatible 02:02:29 dauwhe: Lets do that later 02:02:40 ... There's only 10 subgroups, so very manageable 02:03:00 ... There were more, we closed one that distributed its requirements to other groups 02:03:11 ... Metadata is a big one. Some people have opinions about how it works. 02:03:42 ... The reality of the industry is that most md is handled externally, and the least MD inside the package the better 02:03:47 ... no process for fixing it inside the epub 02:03:48 q+ to ask if libraries (which) are discussion metadata 02:03:52 q- 02:03:55 ... So looking at links to external records 02:04:26 ... Browser-friendly manifestation. If you open it in a browser, it just downloads the file 02:04:43 ... some RS unzips the bundle, so more useful for garden browsers. Exploring exploded Epubs 02:05:06 ... for browsers that dont' support EPUB manipulations. Big, controversial group. Source of some of the *. 02:05:11 ack gl 02:05:11 glazou, you wanted to comment but only when all slides are done 02:05:16 ack fl 02:05:37 ... Serialiazation -- should we allow html5 in epub? half the people in the room have HTML5 stickers. Huge potential change. 02:05:50 ... accept both serializations, but not mandating support for HTML serialization 02:06:05 ... More *, so OWP alignment, this is the big issue 02:06:12 ... Lots of issues around scripting 02:06:36 ... Restructuring the specs themselves. People who wrote them are confused. 02:06:58 ... Matt Garish working on reorg of the specs. 02:07:03 tzviya: Matt Garish is wonderful 02:07:29 dauwhe: A11Y subgroup. Metadata into EPUB for assistive technology 02:07:45 ... to make better choices about what content there is 02:08:22 ... Consolidation - possibility of umbrella spec that links to the specs that comprise css3 02:08:30 ??? : similar to CSS snapshot? Could it be? 02:08:38 ivan: I don't think that it's a fair comparison 02:08:40 s/???/Florian 02:08:40 s/???/Florian/ 02:09:01 ... The various epub docs are stable documents. Snapshot is because there should be a new one every year, it evolves 02:09:19 Present+ Chris_Lilley, Lea_Verou 02:09:33 dauwhe: There's a subgroup looking at more core media types to epub. Want a 3d type, but there don't seem to be any [or too many] 02:09:44 ... also csv files, scientific data 02:09:56 ivan: One of hte things that came up, scientific pubs want to include csv data as part of the book 02:10:05 ... currently a list of types that are allowed and shouldn't be 02:10:11 tzviya: Q about what we mean by media types 02:10:25 ... what we mean is that epub restricts the type of files allowed inside the package 02:10:26 http://www.idpf.org/epub/301/spec/epub-publications.html#sec-core-media-types 02:10:44 ... XHTML is allowed, CSS is, fonts, etc. are called core media types 02:11:01 ... Right now you can't just throw any sort of file in to the package. Requests to expand the list 02:11:10 ... so you don't have to point out of the file 02:11:20 ???: A whitelist of media types 02:11:27 dauwhe: Yes, or one that doesn't require a fallback 02:11:37 s/???/Chris/ 02:11:56 ... there's a css group that hasn't started yet. Currently have a list of properties that are allowed, wonder if there's a better way giving the changing nature of the css landscape 02:12:11 ... and everyone's favorite subgroup, deprecatable elements 02:12:11 q? 02:12:11 q+ 02:13:20 LarsG: Want to ask about the metadata. Interested in consuming it. Are there libraries represented in the EPUB WG? 02:13:48 tzviya: If only. Generally the MD is split between supply chain and library/bib metadata. Lots of input from supply chain, none from the library side 02:14:04 q+ 02:14:05 LarsG: Work with onix, which works, but issues with vocabularies. 02:14:08 ack lars 02:14:08 LarsG, you wanted to ask if libraries (which) are discussion metadata 02:14:14 ... will take it home and see if there can be something done 02:14:17 ack gl 02:14:29 glazou: A comment on number 10. Deprecation doesn't work. Will never work. 02:14:48 tzviya: We know that if we deprecate something, it needs to be replaced with something else 02:14:59 dauwhe: Or if there are things that were never implemented 02:15:09 Chris: that's just killing it then 02:15:15 glazou: Deprecate means SHOULD NOT use it 02:15:21 ... and that UAs MUST support it still 02:15:32 ... when people can do something, they'll abuse it. 02:15:45 ... everything relies on the validator, if it's just a warning that's not enough, needs to be an error 02:15:54 ... so don't deprecate things, just remove them or leave them 02:16:06 tzviya: Daniel likes the death sentence 02:16:11 ack h 02:16:32 HeatherF: Library community concern, member of special libraries association, can try to help bridge 02:16:46 tzviya: Let's talk about EPUB and DPUB 02:16:48 q? 02:16:53 ... alignment with OWP is a major goal 02:17:06 ... Have been working on browser friendly manifestation. Major step towards portable web pubs 02:17:25 ... some big issues to solve. Largest are identifier for the package, and for the components and subcomponents. Some form of a fragment ID 02:17:30 ... need to talk about serialization 02:17:42 ... if we shift away from XHTML, lots of XML vocabs 02:17:56 ... SMIL, many others. Would need to replace them. A11y is dependent on XML 02:18:06 ... working with ARIA, would need to explore working with other groups 02:18:15 ... implemented perhaps exclusively in EPUB 02:18:41 Chris: Is that full smil, not just animation? 02:18:47 tzviya: Not dropping it in 3.1 02:18:55 leaverou has joined #dpub 02:18:57 ivan: I don't remember the details, but I don't think it's full SMIL 02:19:06 Chris: Could replace with CSS anims? 02:19:21 ivan: there's a switch from SMIL that can't work with CSS. Used in practice, I don't know 02:19:40 dauwhe: Short term issue is that there's some NS vocabs, lexicons, that we need replacements for in HTML serialization 02:19:41 q? 02:19:54 ... full SMIL is OWP alignment, and out of scope for 3.1 02:20:21 ... last slide. Aggressive time line. Have to finish DPUB work soon. 02:20:36 ... identifier schemes might be dependent on Anno WG 02:20:46 kwkbtr has joined #dpub 02:20:52 ... conversation? 02:21:00 q+ 02:21:06 Steve: Wanted to +1 daniel's point about schedule 02:21:12 ... and lack of ability for testing 02:21:21 ... or even comparing alternate implementations 02:21:40 ... CSS began with a reasonable set of things. Not all got implemented. CSS2 is the second generation -- put in everything that didn't get to v1 02:21:59 ... catch was that implementations would sample from the space, and wouldn't consistently implement across the space 02:22:05 ... took 7 years to get to 2.1 subset 02:22:12 ... importantly an interoperable subset 02:22:20 ... much more precisely tested subset 02:22:26 ... without interop, specs are dangerous 02:22:48 ... they break features. Had to give up on some because they're not interoperable [or implementable] 02:22:57 ... so dont' take lightly the comment about the insane schedule 02:23:04 ... they want results, but results that work. 02:23:13 ... CSS 2 example of spec that didn't work 02:23:29 tzviya: Will say that we're in early days and not commited to everything on the list 02:23:37 ... may decide that it's not feasible to do some things 02:23:39 q+ 02:23:42 ... will explore it tho 02:23:52 ... might kill more subgroups 02:24:12 SteveZ: Restructuring, but only one group for removal, but none that say interoperable 02:24:17 ... that's the piece I think you're missing 02:24:26 ... How do you ensure what's in 3 is interoperable across implementations 02:24:35 q+ 02:24:49 ack gla 02:24:57 glazou: second what SteveZ said 02:25:17 ... don't know the exact meaning of restructuring or details of work, but seems that there are high level issues that should be fixed before that 02:25:21 ... main one is editorial work 02:25:33 ... 3.0 suffer from severe editorial problems 02:25:43 ... need to navigate between docs all the time 02:25:49 ivan: That's the subgroup 02:26:00 glazou: also the vocab used to describe features is poor 02:26:09 tzviya: feedback welcome 02:26:19 q? 02:26:21 glazou: spine? landmark? if you're not english speaker you're doomed 02:26:31 ... rewritten by tech writer, not an implementer 02:26:41 ... inside or outside the group, but something that's readable 02:27:00 ... tech work in 3.1 is unrealistic. will end up with issues 02:27:07 ... 3.0.1 there's a link to dev.w3.org 02:27:16 ... how is that possible? no link checker? 02:27:25 ... a spec linking to an unstable doc that can change overnight 02:27:26 nikos has joined #dpub 02:27:35 ... do we want to replicate this by working too fast? 02:27:48 ... would accept a 3 year schedule, but 9 months... wow. 02:27:48 ack iv 02:27:53 ivan: different things 02:28:08 ... lets realize that this is work done in another organization 02:28:18 ... so lets not bash them please 02:28:31 ... not our responsibility, we can have an opinion, but lets not go too far 02:28:39 q+ 02:28:45 ... Schizophrenic, because part of the IDPF WG too. 02:29:01 ... Need to look at how this IG can help the IDPF WG process for 3.1 or after 02:29:14 ... start with draft from last week, looks at lots of general things 02:29:23 ... a number of things there for good reasons because the industry needs it 02:29:30 ... SMIL adopted because of a need for that 02:29:38 ... not really adopted at large outside of publishers 02:29:43 ... so something has to be done to replace it 02:29:52 ... CSS animation works for some, need to find for others 02:30:12 ... in process of doing that for IDPF, if we identify issues and problems that can't be changed in 3.1, but could flag it as longterm needing solutions 02:30:21 ... all those issues should come to this group for further work 02:30:27 ... as we're closer to the OWP issues 02:30:39 ... a systematic listing of the issues. may come up in subgroups now, or later 02:30:53 tzviya: a good point. if the schedule needs to be reviewed, then that's the place for it 02:31:01 ... here is what's relevant to the W3C, not scheduling 02:31:15 ... if you want to join the EPUB WG, that would be great 02:31:19 ack da 02:31:21 ... should talk about alignment between the groups 02:31:30 dauwhe: this kind of input from ppl with real experience is useful 02:31:47 ... I think especially the interesting question of what is the interoperable core of 3.0.1 right now 02:31:56 ... answering that question could go a long way to answering what we should kill 02:32:10 ... could go towards answering what work do we need to do to fix things in 3.1 02:32:31 ... maybe it's a matter of cutting out stuff, 3 has a checkered history of slow adoption, implementation 02:32:54 ... we've sent only 3 to the supply chain for a while, but sending stuff compatible with 2 02:33:07 ... all those are useful to look at as we try to figure out what we want to work on 02:33:12 q? 02:33:33 tzviya: I think valuable to find out from testing platform folks, working with 70 user agents rather than 5 02:33:59 ... IOS, Android, linux, mac, pc, ... proliferation of RS ... sometimes you have one organization with 12 instances 02:34:18 dauwhe: with significant differences between the same system on different platforms. much worse than browsers 02:34:35 SteveZ: I think the key thing with testing, you enable orgs to do their own self testing and certification 02:34:46 ... the point was that we, css group, we don't test browsers 02:35:13 ... vendors can test themselves and others, but we rely on others reporting the results. We just make the tests available and easy to run 02:35:33 ... Not saying you should have a certification program, but it makes sense at some level 02:35:35 q? 02:35:59 tzviya: We have a suite of tests with BISG to run a suite of tests. WOrking to make site more friendly. participation from RS on the site is low to very low 02:36:28 Chris: Disagree on self cert. self testing is okay though. Each test needs to indicate what part of what spec it's testing 02:36:35 ... not enough to be clear to the person that wrote it 02:36:45 ... worse than no tests is bad tests pushing people in the wrong direction 02:36:51 ack fl 02:37:07 Florian: Coming back to earlier point. Allowing HTML rather than X* 02:37:34 ... if you allow both serializations you can write it with the X and it's backwards compatible, but non-XHTML is not compatible 02:37:44 q+ 02:37:46 ... non-X agents will completely fail 02:38:10 tzviya: only consideration of HTML is that browser version might have HTML and packaged version have XHTML 02:38:31 dauwhe: We've also run informal tests. Concern on ingestion process of RS that may require XML tool chains 02:38:33 html tests: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1huXAucpY4AddVJpDETBp6DkckbFNHBJWQqk2WIBMiDE/edit 02:38:47 ... rendering engine might be happy at the end of that chain 02:39:00 Florian: Web world loves HTML, but browsers can consume XHTML 02:39:08 ... don't see how you can drop the X 02:39:13 q+ hober 02:39:16 tzviya: Decided against polyglot 02:39:25 ack da 02:39:25 q? 02:39:26 q- 02:39:28 ack ho 02:39:44 Edward: Difference between defacto and de juris compatibility 02:39:55 Can someone summarize why it was decided to not to use HTML5 Polyglot? 02:39:57 ... on paper it shouldn't work, probably does in practice. 02:40:09 q+ 02:40:10 ... the process is the big deal. 02:40:18 tzviya: You can fake out most tools 02:40:28 ack da 02:40:29 Florian: readers based on browsers, no surprise. The ones that aren't are the worry 02:40:40 dauwhe: Larger question, we have to allow HTML at some point in the future 02:40:52 ... don't see a way around and the more time that passes the harder it becomes 02:40:53 q+ Request for summary for -1 on Polyglot 02:40:53 q+ 02:41:01 ... have to dive in at some point 02:41:11 ack dan 02:41:17 sarven: could you summarize why not polyglot? 02:41:25 q- 02:41:26 glazou: polyglot was a contentious point 02:41:37 present+ csarven 02:41:53 ... only editor is mine, not apple not MS, that's why it failed 02:41:58 ... no one knows how to do it 02:42:13 CHris: disadvantage of both, advantages of neither, needed a new tool chain 02:42:21 ... needed special purpose tools, and not worth while 02:42:31 glazou: It would be okay if HTML5 main dialect was polyglot 02:42:37 ... but it's not 02:42:50 ack gla 02:43:14 ... If I take a regular web dev conference, a month ago, I ask about it. If I ask what it is, 1/100th of the room would know 02:43:25 ack re 02:43:26 Request, you wanted to discuss summary for -1 on Polyglot 02:43:48 q+ to say "Can I Use" 02:43:58 csarven: I trust your study, but find it odd from my experience. I haven't found any issues with the tools, and easier to work with. 02:44:11 ... So was curious to see why 02:44:12 q+ hober 02:44:20 tzviya: Aside from the toolchain, so many restrictions 02:44:40 ... iframes, interactive content, etc. Figuring out the restrictions in a spec from a few years 02:44:47 skk has joined #dpub 02:44:51 Ed: polyglot requires a profile of javascript that's ?? 02:44:57 dauwhe: Sounds perfect 02:44:59 ack steve 02:44:59 SteveZ, you wanted to say "Can I Use" 02:45:31 SteveZ: related to testing, there's a valuable resource to drive compliance, and that's sites like Can I Use 02:45:41 ... a public site that shows where you can use given features 02:45:42 http://epubtest.org/ 02:45:56 ... by publicly exposing it, there's pressure on the vendors to fix problems that show up there 02:46:04 Present+ csarven 02:46:07 ... part of the problem with 70 people, they don't have anything pushing them 02:46:10 q+ 02:46:12 ... not necessarily the vendors 02:46:24 ... public sites that make some systems look better than others helps compliance 02:46:37 http://epubtest.org/results/ 02:46:43 tzviya: epubtest.org does some of that. Working on improving it. Aware of caniuse 02:46:58 ... Pushed epub3 further 02:47:09 ack hob 02:47:12 SteveZ: Have you explored if can i use would help? 02:47:16 ... not connected 02:47:24 Chris: On github, so take PRs 02:47:30 ... can fork it too 02:47:39 hober has joined #dpub 02:47:44 ack dauwhe 02:47:46 q? 02:48:00 Japanese did very detailed Reader testing, even not all about the spec: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14X_eFPqtJju80IgklQ4SLV7KF7-05EWWTc6trOUQttQ/pubhtml# 02:48:20 ChrisL has joined #dpub 02:48:38 q+ 02:48:46 tzviya: take aways: Crazy to do it quickly, need testing maybe forking canIUse, we'd love help 02:48:57 ... any suggestions to take back to IDPF for alignment 02:49:02 ack fl 02:49:17 Florian: CSS profiling. Moving away from a specific profile is good. Moving on to snapshot not obviously good 02:49:20 ... maybe better 02:49:32 ivan: pushes the corpse into the CSS group's courtyard 02:49:45 ... not present for the profile being defined, but same problem of what is stable 02:49:58 ... external trying to catch up is more complex than CSS doing it 02:50:04 Florian: Profiling itself is an issue 02:50:13 tzviya: allow all? 02:50:44 Florian: You do by using browsers already. Saying that you should support stuff is okay, but not MUST support all of this 02:50:53 ... TV world tried and didn't have much success either 02:51:03 ... snapshot is what the browser world has, not everything is relevant 02:51:10 ... ideally it would be good to support everything 02:51:15 ... but not going to happen 02:51:19 lsf has joined #dpub 02:51:28 tzviya: should be talking about conformance criteria 02:51:43 Florian: authors will include what works, what they hope willl start working soon 02:51:50 ... profile that creates extensions is a big problem 02:51:59 ... or forbidding going beyond the profile 02:52:13 ... iput the focus on supporting page related stuff, maybe that work work 02:52:41 ivan: my understanding of the snapshot is that those are the css docs that from the WG's point of view are stable 02:52:50 ... that's different statement to what you're saying 02:52:58 ... doesn't say that those are implemented docs 02:53:04 Florian: correct 02:53:25 ivan: Not sure what else can IDPF external group do, other than to say whatever the CSS group declares as being stable is what we use 02:53:37 ... if CSS WG decides that this and this are still experimental, then don't use it 02:53:39 tzviya I’ll try after lunch 02:53:50 ... plan is to issue snapshot every year, so don't see a better option for IDPF 02:54:00 ... than to rely on what the WG says 02:54:01 q? 02:54:11 Chris: Take the snapshot as the base and add what's stable in readers 02:54:16 ... even if the browsers are behind 02:54:39 ivan: EPUB readers may have implemented unstable docs from the WG PoV? the list is not implementation specific? 02:54:50 FLorian: won't declare something stable unless there's implementations 02:54:58 ... not quite rec level but close 02:55:03 ivan: Not clear in snapshot doc 02:55:07 ... very important differnce 02:55:08 q+ 02:55:15 tzviya: could do with input on css task force 02:55:20 q+ 02:55:51 Florian: briefly, snapshot good to point to, but careful what you say about it . what does we use this mean. 02:56:00 ... [... too fast ... 02:56:01 ] 02:56:08 (From CSS Snapshot 2015: " This profile includes only specifications that we consider stable and for which we have enough implementation experience that we are sure of that stability.") 02:56:22 ack da 02:56:40 dauwhe: Looking at snapshot, css is defined by list of specs 02:56:49 ... then a couple of other lists of things that are good but not official 02:56:59 ... proposal was to say UAs must support 2015 snapshot 02:57:03 rigo has joined #dpub 02:57:04 tzviya: I think we can discuss in IDPF 02:57:12 ack r12 02:57:35 r12a: My understanding -- certain extensions supported eg for vertical text 02:57:42 ... how does that fit with what we've been saying 02:57:47 ... and how does it fit with writing modes 02:57:58 ... could be used to replace proprietary approaches 02:58:17 dauwhe: would add to first statement that epub UAs must support snapshot plus these other things for CJK 02:58:49 r12a: Other half of q, was that writing modes progressed, and ereaders using something similar, how do we harmonize approach to vertical text 02:58:51 The CSS snapshot is a good representation of the state of stable CSS as of today (where stable includes the fact that based on implementation experience, we know that they are), so pointing at it is a good thing. Requiring conformance either from authors or UA vendors is a very different proposition 02:58:57 dauwhe: good q, don't know much about the state in EPUB 02:59:09 q- 02:59:12 q-+ 02:59:14 q+ 02:59:26 brady_duga: we took a snapshot of writing modes, prefixed some properties and said you have to use this syntax 02:59:37 ... but the semantics change with the writing mode specs 02:59:40 ... problematic 02:59:55 ... one reason was the syntax changed. so didn't map to any semantics as the properties and values changed 03:00:08 ... did do an update at some point to correct some that changed .... and then they changed again 03:00:17 ... so can't do ??? correctly as the names/values move 03:00:39 Edward: Rendering engines have ability to alias properties to each other 03:00:47 ... so as CSS move, the prefixed versions get dragged along 03:00:52 So I don't think that works 03:01:01 ack fl 03:01:05 Florian: writing modes expeced to hit in 2016 03:01:18 ... close but not quite there. small doc, with not quite so aggressive schedule 03:01:37 ... also no browser would match the full snapshot 03:01:43 tzviya: Come back at 1pm 03:01:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:01:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 03:05:42 HeatherF has joined #dpub 03:06:37 HeatherF_ has joined #dpub 03:40:19 HeatherF has joined #dpub 03:54:18 Jeff_Xu has joined #dpub 03:59:17 LarsG has joined #dpub 03:59:55 clapierre has joined #DPUB 04:00:39 tzviya has joined #dpub 04:03:30 ScribeNick: brady_duga 04:03:57 Topic: CSS 04:04:10 HeatherF_ has joined #dpub 04:04:23 Bobby has joined #dpub 04:06:29 ivan has joined #dpub 04:06:53 Topic: Meeting with the CSS WG 04:07:16 yamane has joined #dpub 04:07:22 glazou has joined #dpub 04:07:35 ShaneM has joined #dpub 04:07:35 present+ Taketoshi Yamane 04:07:49 Present+ fantasai, Peter_Linss, Rossen, 04:07:52 fantasai has joined #dpub 04:07:54 Florian has joined #dpub 04:07:57 present+ fantasai 04:08:10 s/present+ fantasai/ 04:08:12 s/present+ fantasai// 04:08:20 Tzviya: Welcome CSS people 04:08:26 rossen has joined #dpub 04:08:36 Present+ rossen 04:08:38 … handing over to Dave to give a walkthrough 04:08:44 Sumio_Noda has joined #dpub 04:09:10 dauwhe: Already talked about CSS in context of math and houdini 04:09:46 … and in the context of epub 3.1 as to what RSes should support (and how to specify it) 04:10:04 baba has joined #dpub 04:10:09 murakami has joined #dpub 04:10:15 … This group has done work on our wishlist for CSS 04:10:36 … have been sneaking around TPAC trying to get people to implement some of those features 04:10:42 … like alignment in tables 04:10:56 +100 for char alignment in tables 04:11:06 … Q: that property is in a draft of a spec 04:11:14 … Do we need to do any spec work here? 04:11:30 fantasai: Not many issues, but not many implementations. 04:11:42 … Keeps moving forward (from CSS 2 to level 4) 04:11:56 … either need to implement or say what is wrong with it 04:12:17 Florian: There are implementations, just not in the web sphere 04:12:31 SteveZ has joined #dpub 04:12:46 … implementation experience may be coming, so we may learn from that 04:13:39 tzviya: Does it have to be Chrome, or just anyone at Google (for having weight) 04:13:52 Present+ Dean_Jackson 04:13:57 skk has joined #dpub 04:13:58 Florian: Any implementation is good, as we learn 04:14:10 rossen: Why this list? How did you come up with it? 04:14:18 Vlad has joined #dpub 04:14:29 Present+ David_Baron 04:14:36 dauwhe: Highly unscientific, just asked people I know, asked on lists, etc 04:15:32 dbaron has joined #dpub 04:15:33 Florian: something about priortity of ??? 04:15:46 dauwhe: We also considered low-hanging fruit 04:16:09 tzviya: character alignment seems so easy 04:16:25 fantasai: Actually, not that easy. 04:17:31 [general argument among CSS members about how easy/hard character alignment is] 04:17:41 http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-4/#character-alignment 04:17:42 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-4/#character-alignment 04:17:47 fantasai: Tell me what is missing please 04:17:53 priorities list: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html 04:18:25 dauwhe: Skipping pagination for now as it is so huge 04:18:40 myles has joined #dpub 04:18:46 … Generated content is one category, but it is fraught with a11y 04:18:50 q? 04:19:04 … Has there been work to deal with a11y around generated content? 04:19:53 … table numbering, cross reference using counters, etc 04:20:04 fantasai, is it ok if I just add an issue or two to the spec saying what needs to be defined? 04:20:14 … useful for table of contents and other fun stuff 04:21:10 … We see the use cases, but are weary of a11y issues around it. Hesitant to push until we understand a11y perspective 04:21:39 fantasai: The spec should cover speech output, the fact that it isn’t is a bug 04:21:40 ChrisL has joined #dpub 04:21:51 … happy to do any spec work for specific issues in this area 04:22:02 q? 04:22:15 … Can add a box about it in the gc spec, but still has implementation issues 04:22:39 dauwhe: Have heard some people want to use GC for only decorative content, but that is hard to do and define 04:23:14 fantasai: We should make it be accesible. Should use other options when the counter needs to be used in the text of the document 04:23:34 tzviya: Harder case: running head needs to be accessible 04:23:51 rossen: Should be accessible now 04:24:04 s/We should/Implementations should/ 04:24:04 tzviya: But it isn’t - what do we do? 04:24:17 fantasai: File bugs 04:24:23 … on implementations 04:24:25 s/Should use other options/Can in the future use 'display: marker' on in-document elements/ 04:24:26 q+ 04:25:21 SteveZ: CSS should expose things that aren’t in the DOM 04:25:45 ack fl 04:26:05 SteveZ: Maybe we need extensions to CSSOM to expose this info 04:26:07 Florian: Do we know why specific implementors aren’t doing it? 04:26:22 … problems with implementing the spec, or just being passive 04:26:51 fantasai: SteveZ pointed out extensions to CSSOM might help 04:27:08 … May want to expose more APIs for getting counters, etc 04:27:47 SteveZ: There is a CSS meeting on Friday, should raise a11y question then 04:28:06 btw, the fit-to-page feature can be done with flexbox already 04:28:30 tzviya: There is an html mapping document for [something]. That is probably what you are thinking about, but off topic 04:28:45 Core accessibility mappings: http://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/ 04:29:00 s/Should be accessible now/Should be accessible by spec/ 04:29:14 dauwhe: Another topic, having more control over hyphenation 04:29:33 figure { max-height: 100vh; max-width: 100vw; display: flex; } img { flex: 1; } or somesuch... 04:29:52 … several pieces: various users have standards for what is and isn’t acceptable 04:30:01 liam has joined #dpub 04:30:12 q? 04:30:19 … need control over smallest word to hyphenate, how many chars before and after, etc 04:30:38 … Conceptually we know what all these controls are from existing editors 04:30:55 … More interesting are dictionaries, exception lists, etc 04:31:18 r12a has joined #dpub 04:31:27 rossen: On the topic of having GC and counters accessible: The accessability tree is currently defined to work on top of the DOM tree. In order to have generated content (including list numbers/counters etc.) impls need to include the computed style tree as well. 04:31:45 … Trying to figure out some way to have a doc author define an exception dictionary the reader engine could use 04:31:51 +1 to rossen 04:32:01 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 04:32:11 SteveZ: didn’t Hakon (sp?) have a spec for this some time ago? 04:32:36 … But what it points at (format) and languages, etc is hard to define 04:32:56 Hyphenation for non-English has some compexities... 04:33:17 johanneswilm: As I understand how it works, there is a JS library that adds soft hyphens 04:33:46 … given that, it would be hard to get all browsers to ship dictionaries 04:34:01 … Given the current system, what do you really want? 04:34:23 dauwhe: The idea of adding the hyphens horrifies me 04:34:32 q+ 04:34:55 tzviya: [showing crappy hyphenation] 04:35:15 johanneswilm: Yeah, but JS could do better job with dictionaries, etc 04:35:33 dauwhe: Really don’t like adding soft hyphens 04:35:45 rossen: Back to the question, what do need? 04:36:02 dauwhe: Control over parameters. 04:36:27 ack brady_duga 04:36:27 Florian: Also how many hypephens in a row 04:36:42 and maximum whitespace between words please :) 04:37:10 +q 04:37:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-4/#hyphenation 04:37:47 q+ 04:38:54 q+ to ask if we want to turn ebook readers into dtp systems 04:38:56 ack johanneswilm 04:39:22 brady_duga: Browsers just have bad line breaking. Hyphenation gives more breakpoints, but doesn't solve that problem. 04:39:22 brady_duga: Rants about hyphenation not being as important as line breaking 04:40:19 johanneswilm: Problems with JS-based hyphenation are that it breaks search, and also it is affecting words that aren't even near the end of the line 04:40:59 s/Hakon (sp?)/Håkon/ 04:41:23 rossen: Houdini can address these when we have the view tree 04:41:39 dauwhe: Are you saying this should be at the app level? 04:41:51 rossen: Of ourse- isn’t that what you are asking us for? 04:42:14 rossen: You need to show us examples of bad hyphenation today 04:42:33 tzviya: No problem! 04:42:47 shepazu has joined #dpub 04:43:03 rossen: We need specific examples so we know where the current spec has problems, then give requirements 04:43:08 q+ 04:43:17 … what would better hyphenation look like? 04:44:08 ???: Lots of problems with line breaking, for instance balancing lines 04:44:12 http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-4/#text-wrap 04:44:14 ack myles 04:44:17 s/???/leaverou/ 04:44:20 s/???:/leaverou/ 04:44:26 q? 04:44:54 miles: Performance issues with line breaking 04:45:04 +q 04:45:20 tzviya has joined #dpub 04:45:25 q+ 04:45:27 … letting JS reflow is really slow 04:45:44 ack LarsG 04:45:44 LarsG, you wanted to ask if we want to turn ebook readers into dtp systems 04:46:16 Sumio_Noda has joined #dpub 04:46:32 q+ 04:46:37 LarsG: What are you trying to achieve? Full better line breaking? 04:46:39 dauwhe: Yes 04:46:49 ack fl 04:46:57 … we want to take that master typographer and embed it in the layout 04:47:16 Florian: Concur with Brady, this is a line breaking problem, not hyphenation 04:47:24 q? 04:47:36 q- 04:48:42 ack johanneswilm 04:48:44 ack j 04:48:48 brady_duga: Says maybe performance is not that big a deal 04:48:51 q- 04:49:10 johanneswilm: It’s a priortiy thing. Look good or be fast? 04:49:28 FWIW, there are O(n) implementations of Knuth-Plass via SMAWK, but I'm not very knowledgeable on the details 04:49:36 … would still be good to get these primitives in houdini 04:49:48 leaverou: is a good point. IIRC part of the problem was floats 04:49:52 ack ian 04:49:56 leaverou: but for non-impacted lines... 04:50:00 … being able to measure, etc in JS 04:50:15 … would make it possible to break lines and not be too slow 04:50:28 fantasai: also, in print performance matters much less than the result. Perhaps it could be opt-in? 04:51:06 dauwhe: Next topic. Keeping captions on the same page 04:51:14 … as the image. 04:51:38 … Mentioned it to fantasai and she said maybe flex box would help 04:51:48 fantasai: What do you want to do? 04:51:55 caption {break-before: avoid-page } 04:52:29 dauwhe: One example, want to keep the caption on the page, then scale the image to fit 04:53:36 fantasai: Let’s say the image should fill the page, and be at least 50% of the size of the page, but in a figure, make it 100vh, display: flex, 04:53:53 Btw, we’re transllating Japanese EPUB reader check items here: https://docs.google.com/a/wanderer.tw/spreadsheets/d/1Mg7V9HCecKVRlbb4QcV6_8npNFQcxeHfOVQ16H-IdvM/pubhtml 04:54:17 … a few other things with flex. 04:54:30 dauwhe: Aspect ratio is preserved? 04:54:49 fantasai: Yes, maybe need to do some stuff with max vh 04:55:07 tzviya: When printed, there are problems 04:55:25 … might be the engine in question 04:55:37 rossen: complain to the implementor! 04:56:04 figure { display: flex; flex-flow: column; height: 100vh; } 04:56:21 img { flex: 1; } 04:57:54 ???: don’t want half a blank page, though. May want to make the img a float if it doesn’t fit 04:58:11 s/???/dino/ 04:58:35 tzviya: 2 minutes for next steps 04:58:48 dauwhe: And more generally feedback from CSS and how can we help 04:59:20 ivan: we should provide samples and their correct rendering 04:59:35 … that’s where we should take the requirement document 05:00:20 ivan: Anything else where we can be helpful? 05:00:36 tzviya: We may ask for some of you to join the calls from time to time 05:00:52 … having direct communication is very helpful 05:01:04 ted: The time of your call sucks 05:01:18 … how about rotating schedule? 05:01:39 tzviya: We may have occasional calls at better times 05:02:31 … we understand that the time is problematic 05:02:48 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%20%20html%2C%20body%20{%20margin%3A%200%3B%20padding%3A%200%3B%20}%0A%20%20figure%20{%20display%3A%20flex%3B%20flex-flow%3A%20column%3B%20height%3A%20100vh%3B%20margin%3A%200%3B%20}%0A%20%20img%20{%20flex%3A%201%3B%20background%3A%20orange%3B%20min-height%3A%200%3B%20}%0A%20%20figcaption%20{%20background%3A%20lightblue%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cfigure%3E%0A[CUT] 05:02:50 dauwhe: let's do an IG and a CG first 05:02:53 Florian: Later is terrible for Japan 05:03:02 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3711 05:03:52 dauwhe: Simpler solution is cancel the calls and rotate weekly face to faces. [ed note: This may be a joke] 05:04:12 Judy has joined #dpub 05:04:19 SimonSapin has joined #dpub 05:04:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:04:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 05:04:47 david: there are a lot of new problems reported on char alignment 05:05:31 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-4/#character-alignment now has some issues added 05:05:33 fantasai, ^ 05:05:52 Topic: Publication Object Model 05:14:24 Karen has joined #dpub 05:16:36 Ralph has joined #dpub 05:16:57 Bobby has joined #dpub 05:18:19 scribenick: ChrisL 05:19:03 dbaron has joined #dpub 05:19:04 glazou: describing an idea from implementing epub; framework to to do resources in package, manipulate metadata 05:19:20 ... there was no framework available, did not want a java package either 05:19:50 slides are available at http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/slides/201510-TPAC/POM.pdf 05:19:51 ... so I think we should do something to enable anyone to write a reader, editor, filter, on the web today 05:20:10 glazou: pom publications object model 05:20:14 myles has joined #dpub 05:20:20 .... abstraction layer to hide the details 05:20:48 ... reaching individual resources, each has its own dom, 05:21:05 ... adding or modifying metadata is comples. Needs to be hidden from the user 05:21:24 ... publucations in name, not epub, so it is publications agnostic 05:22:03 glazou: 2 or 3 layer architecture, register a format assocuiiated to interfaces, which know the deep stuff to do. you call the upper layer which is the abstraction 05:22:34 ... publication manager interface, then can reach the individual resources with specific interfaces as needed 05:23:06 ... eg an action that is PDF specific, that is on the lower levels only. everything common to all publications is on the higher level only 05:23:24 ... manager registers the formats allowed. new formats registered, like aplugin 05:23:39 ... add a name and a classs and it is done 05:23:57 ... no save, but can load and manipulate 05:24:24 ... publication implements all the common stuff, save, manipulate everything inside the resources and the metadata 05:24:44 ... mostly when you don't need extra methods, it she regular DOM objects 05:24:56 ... but you can add extra methods as needed 05:25:27 glazou: resources allow you to get every file, can be a part of a file or a set of files, in the package. including binary or text. no assumptions here 05:25:46 ... what we reach from above should be reachable as a publication resource 05:26:04 (glazou projects a code sample) 05:26:54 glazou: appending metadata, as if it was a regular DOM. set resource type, and save 05:27:28 ... easy to manipulate a document. Normally the code is 15x as large as what I showed here which makes it hard to author and maintain 05:27:36 q? 05:28:27 glazou: needs a POM spec, EPUB3 plugin as a Publication spec, lastly an Ooen Source framework that mplements it, in C++ and again in JavaScript. Common source for both 05:28:37 ... maybe in Swift 05:29:00 ... but a single source transpiled. Then we have easy maniplation 05:29:08 q? 05:29:11 q+ 05:29:19 ack fl 05:29:48 Florian: makes a lot of sense, curious about the last part on implementation. who implements this? 05:30:01 glazou: yes I will write an implementations 05:30:19 Florian: but what class of people should implement at this level 05:30:22 q+ 05:30:31 ivan: I prefer it in Python 05:30:45 Florian: not the users of it, but the implementors of it 05:30:59 ivan: building on top of this would be good 05:31:39 tzviya: could even go beyond publications 05:31:50 ... branch with special requirements 05:31:59 Florian: so it is not for browsers only 05:32:29 glazou: why not a WG on this topic, then you have members who implement it 05:32:44 q+ 05:33:02 ivan: browsers would not do this at first , but we could have non-browser imple,entations 05:33:08 ack brady 05:33:15 glazou: as a javascript framework 05:33:20 q+ 05:33:32 brady_duga: sounds very reasonable, question the need for a spec though 05:33:54 ... is it just a library, do we expect multiple implementations? 05:33:57 glazou: yes, i do 05:34:13 ack dauwhe 05:34:18 dauwhe: don't worry i got this (re: swift implementation) 05:34:43 dauwhe: is this for authoring & editing tools, or something for a browser to use to display/ 05:34:56 q+ 05:34:58 glazou: multipurpose. can do converson filtering for example 05:35:26 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 05:35:42 ack jeff 05:35:43 ... could do a validator 05:36:06 Jeff_Xu: is it like a CMS? For users if we want to export a website as an epub file? 05:36:11 ack cl 05:36:12 glazou: yes, agreed 05:36:37 clapierre: have you discussed with the publishers? 05:37:07 s/publishers/Readium 05:37:54 glazou: yes, I have 05:38:36 q? 05:38:48 q+ 05:39:01 ack iv 05:39:08 glazou: in BG epub it was a burden not having this, and its the only native epub editor. Making it simpler makes it easier to make more tools 05:39:47 q+ 05:39:55 sorry for previlege setting error: Japanese EPUB check items translated version here again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s60yFQ6V1vqNDCErOQW-VRcwUIL5wnIhAiOmMayJe64/pubhtml 05:40:20 ivan: for my project it would have been great to have this. practical issue is 3.1 is coming, expect to see in analysis of 3.1 what asre the features which are generally important and wat are epub specific or historical 05:40:45 ... so the details of what is publication agnostic and what is epub specific needs to evolve and be re-examines over time 05:40:58 ... formulate in more generic terms 05:41:07 q? 05:41:29 glazou: need to know 3 or 4 types of publications to abstract out the generic parts 05:41:45 r12a has joined #dpub 05:42:00 ... finding what is common across all formats is hard 05:42:07 ack tzv 05:42:15 ... this is why I am presenting it 05:42:33 tzviya: what are the next steps? do you need more details of workflow and formats? 05:43:10 glazou: yes, and what is the basic missing info inside, where can i read about it. mutiple documents and pages, how they all link together. need to compare multiple formats 05:43:33 ivan: mayne some format is not in scope as too different and not worth the trouble 05:43:47 tzviya: we can give you more info. then what do we do 05:43:55 ... can i wite the spec with you? 05:44:11 glazou: it is IDL and code mostly. but review would be very helpful 05:44:34 ivan: this group can publish text docs but only as notes 05:44:56 glazou: what about a member submission? 05:45:19 skk has joined #dpub 05:45:30 ChrisL: or make a CG to do initial spec work 05:45:46 q? 05:45:55 glazou: is anyone else interested, helping design interfaces and code? 05:46:27 tzviya: we may have some people to contribute code, but they did not make it to japan 05:46:44 Florian: vivliostyle would be a user , review rather than contribute 05:46:59 ... the JS part specifically, maybe C++, not Python 05:47:00 Bobby has joined #dpub 05:48:06 glazou: could be differences in zipper tools, file access. the rest is all DOM manipulation 05:48:25 http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/132071294012 05:48:28 glazou: will make a CG, once it is created please help 05:49:00 ???/if the CG is broader then I would be interested, had planned to make a CG but from a different angle 05:49:41 ???: seems to treat a document with an API, to me that is less than the RDF to get access to it, independent of program language. query an RDF store 05:49:52 s/???/Sarven 05:50:05 Not looks very difficult. I can help implementation, C++, javascript, or anything else if want. 05:50:20 glazou: there are some soecifics to the press, metsadata for example, not always the case in other formats. Not sure it fits well with an RDF store 05:51:00 q+ to talk about single- vs multidocument publications 05:51:11 ivan: when you get inthe guts of the package, the DOM is well defined. Then it is a traditional DOM manager. RDFa is defined on the DOM, give it to an RDFa extractor but that is not needed here 05:51:30 tzviya: assuming you were writing to JAX(??) 05:51:30 q? 05:51:48 tzviya: once we have the container, no reason not to add the RDFa 05:52:01 glazou: could be extended to annotations etc over time. 05:52:01 ack Lars 05:52:01 LarsG, you wanted to talk about single- vs multidocument publications 05:52:10 tzviya: not just publications, any container 05:52:38 LarsG: mismatch between a monolithic document with RDFa and a container API 05:53:00 Sarven: so needs an HTML export of the source format? 05:53:33 glazou: resource could be a zip, or an html document, a PNG image, anything 05:53:55 s/JAX(??)/JATS/ 05:54:21 glazou: an email with text and images could be seen as a publication in this context 05:54:27 azaroth has joined #dpub 05:54:39 Sarven: I am covering this 05:55:02 action glazou to create a POM CG 05:55:02 Error finding 'glazou'. You can review and register nicknames at . 05:55:24 ivan: hard to manage the abstraction level 05:55:43 q+ 05:55:52 glazou: needs t work for epub at least, for other formats it needs help 05:56:15 tzviya: and we owe you some info about workflow and formats 05:56:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:56:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 05:56:27 ack skk 05:56:32 fantasai: object-fit: contain on the img really helps with the flex example 05:56:46 skk: we also have an epub3 viewer and made some abstraction layer so we would like to contribute 05:56:57 ... javascript and C++ 05:56:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:56:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 05:57:05 glazou: wonderful 05:57:12 (break, 15min) 05:57:19 Topic: Service Workers 05:57:26 s/15/45/ 05:58:58 s/javascript and// 05:59:09 Judy has joined #dpub 06:02:24 glazou has joined #dpub 06:02:28 ChrisLilley has joined #dpub 06:04:00 Karen has joined #dpub 06:04:58 clapierre has joined #DPUB 06:05:41 LarsG has joined #dpub 06:13:43 Chris_Lilley has joined #dpub 06:30:46 myles has joined #dpub 06:33:48 hober2 has joined #dpub 06:34:51 HeatherF has joined #dpub 06:38:40 fantasai has joined #dpub 06:41:38 ivan has joined #dpub 06:42:12 POM CG: https://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/#pom 06:44:28 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 06:47:30 HeatherF has joined #dpub 06:47:33 Florian has joined #dpub 06:49:29 DanielWeck has joined #dpub 06:51:16 Florian has joined #dpub 06:52:27 Florian has joined #dpub 06:54:45 SimonSapin has left #dpub 06:55:09 Bobby has joined #dpub 06:55:38 JakeA has joined #dpub 06:55:51 Florian_ has joined #dpub 06:56:09 Judy has joined #dpub 06:57:42 scribe: liam 06:57:46 scribenick: liam 06:58:00 community group supported by more than 5 (required) in less than 30 minutes ; achievement unlocked 06:58:33 [people introduce one another] 06:59:06 Topic: Service Workers 06:59:16 LarsG_ has joined #dpub 06:59:26 Ivan: does what we wrote make sense? 06:59:39 xx: yes, makes sense, uses common patterns, offline first 06:59:39 LarsG_ has left #dpub 06:59:41 kurosawa has joined #dpub 06:59:47 tzviya: OK, then we're done ;-) 06:59:53 s/XX/Jake 07:00:10 Jake: but service workers need an https protocol, not local file 07:00:29 ... or if it's localhost you can have http instead of https. 07:00:33 present+ Daniel_Weck 07:00:41 present+ Liam_Quin 07:00:44 LarsG_ has joined #dpub 07:00:59 ivan: I think our model is that it is the local file system, e.g. I downloaded a book 07:01:19 murakami has joined #dpub 07:01:22 ... Now, what does that mean exactly? If I mounted some remote filesystem then it's still local I guess? 07:01:25 Jake: right. 07:01:33 q+ 07:01:42 The only thing tht'd make a difference'd be if it was running a local http server 07:01:56 Ivan: ah, so you can't use file: protocol. 07:02:09 q+ 07:02:21 Jake: the spec is hand-wavey, yuo send a request and get a response but file system doesn't fit that 07:02:22 we are referring to the http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#arch section of PWP 07:02:24 HeatherF has joined #dpub 07:02:44 q+ 07:02:50 Daniel: I'm wondering what you people mean by local file system. E.g. we make use of HTML 5 file system 07:03:06 and I think only supported fully by Chrome, but means we can unpack an epub in the local "file system" 07:03:22 We can load content into iframes transparently 07:03:40 ... so that's what we used to cache out exploded [zip files], 07:03:51 ... But there's also a built-in cache api to service workers. 07:04:19 Jake: the file system stuff doesn't seem to be going anywhere, whereas this cache is in chrome & [firefox nightly?] 07:04:50 ... Even from a window you can get into a cache and then you can get a "blob" and get a URL for it. 07:05:03 q- 07:05:17 Ivan: Because I'm not sure of all the detail, Daniel, could you write this and put it as an issue on github? 07:05:24 Daniel: OK 07:06:12 Daniel: with blob URIs you have to know all the assets but this breaks streaming; in Readium we have to preprocess the full DOM tree and feed it to the iframe 07:06:39 ... You either do the local [html] file system or the service worker + cache, but blob URI doesn't really meet our needs. 07:06:39 shepazu has joined #dpub 07:06:47 ack jeff 07:07:19 Jeff; Before we pushed the cache, 07:07:32 Jake: you can't use XHR within a service worker 07:07:52 it's turned off because of efficiency and because yuo can use it synchronously 07:07:58 but there are other methods 07:08:01 q 07:08:02 qw+ 07:08:04 q+ 07:08:07 ACTION DanielWeck to file GitHub issue about local "file system" and cache 07:08:08 Error finding 'DanielWeck'. You can review and register nicknames at . 07:08:18 q? 07:08:43 ... If yuo want to process a zip, e.g. yuo ahve a JS implementation of unzip code yuo can do that; 07:09:03 ... we're introducing streams so you could do that in a streaming way, pull things out of the zip & put them in the chache. 07:09:08 ... that's not implemented in chrome yet - we're hoping for Q1. 07:09:14 s/chache/cache/ 07:09:31 rrsagent, pointer? 07:09:31 See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-irc#T07-09-31 07:09:40 ack fl 07:09:47 [question also about HTTP Range requests - yes, you'll get a range response back, if it's supported by the server] 07:10:15 Florian: you say service workers don't work on the file protocol; is it architectural or just underspecified? 07:11:06 Jake: the service worker always has to exist on an independent URL, so should be possible on the file system, but I think the main problem is defining what a request object would look like 07:11:24 ... There may also be security concerns. 07:11:51 Florian: so this hasn't been fully explored 07:11:58 Jake: yes. 07:11:59 ack Dan 07:12:27 DanielWeck: Going back to file URI protocol, agree, file: isn't really designed for the web, so for readium we launch a local web server 07:12:49 We also have native apps that launch their own internal http server within the app itself to feed the content to the app. 07:13:21 q+ 07:13:26 There isn't a security https requirement when the URI is bound to the local IP address but it has a same domain policy & has to be https when remote. 07:13:49 q? 07:14:26 Jake: the same origin policy - a SW must be on the same page as the app, but the SW gets to intercept all the subresource requests on that page and you can catch those 07:15:00 So if you're fetching content from another server - images, scripts, XHR - then your SW will intercept that. An iframe is different, not a sub-resource. 07:15:58 DanielWeck: once code runs in the context of a SW, XHR is not available, but when you use a library that uses XHR under the hood we had to "polyfull" XHR using the request API! 07:16:17 s/"polyfull"/polyfill 07:16:24 Jake: may be politics in disabling XHR in SW; it's possible we could bring it back & just ban the synchronous element of it. 07:16:33 Ted: also have to ban the DOM access. 07:16:34 ack Jeff 07:16:36 Jake: yes. 07:17:16 Jeff: can we ask a SW to clear cache becaus resource already loaded 07:17:55 Jake: the cache api, you can delete stuff. the http cache, with the fetch api, you can specify how it should interact with the cache, an option is to bypassit. 07:18:12 ... not all implementedin Chromium. 07:18:29 q? 07:18:48 ClearSiteData API is a header-based way to clear caches & storage and there's a JS API for that too. 07:19:08 It acts as a panic button if you detect XSS, or on logout. 07:20:20 Ivan: what we have here, is it something that the existence thereof, and what Daniel etc have done in Readium, is it the kind of application interesting enough to be a use case to push other browsers? 07:20:48 q? 07:20:52 Jake: any feedback around the API is very valuable, along with feedback we're getting from Facebook, The Guardian, etc 07:21:20 fq+ 07:21:23 q+ 07:21:29 kurosawa has left #dpub 07:21:31 tzviya: it's a use case that has the potential to support the entire publishing industry so it's a big use case. 07:21:58 ivan: saying anything they put on the Web must be on https, will that be OK? 07:22:21 Jake: it's not just about what you send to the server, it's what the server sends to you too. 07:22:37 ack dan 07:22:57 DanielWeck: I was wondering, why is this group considering the need to access the raw filesystem from the browser? 07:23:32 ... My experience is that a hybrid app will expose a custom URI scheme 07:23:47 ... Is there a diagram? 07:24:40 Ivan: I didn't realize until half an hour that aspect, the use case I had is I download a book e.g. via dropbox and now I want to read it in the browser. 07:24:57 The trick you had of starting a local server solves the issue. 07:25:23 Jake: what's the benefit of using a local server? 07:25:39 Ivan: because I can receive the article from a friend by email, many ways a publication can be sent around. 07:26:26 tzviya: another use case is archiving, needs to be an archival format. 07:26:53 azaroth has joined #dpub 07:26:55 Jake: Archival format could be generated by a service worker. 07:27:08 skk has joined #dpub 07:27:22 Florian: Having downloaded the various assets, the SW could use the kind of API Daniel was describing 07:27:33 q? 07:27:51 yy: Maybe I'm eing naieve 07:28:10 ... but if I need a server in order to read a publication, seems like that might be a security problem. 07:28:10 s/yy/myles 07:28:23 ... E.g. on Apple platform we grant rights to the network as opposed to the file system. 07:28:50 Jake: Yeah, if you run a page on the file system you can XHR within that folder (directory) and down. But can't reach out. 07:29:03 (don't get an html file on / and open it!) 07:29:14 I agree there's a massive security consideration. 07:29:35 Jake: What's the benefit of the SW when you already have the publication on the user's disk? 07:30:07 Ivan: from my point of view the fact that the SW abstracts out the difference of the publications being local or remote, packaged or not, is what I gain 07:30:27 ... All the rest of the reader, conceptually, works as if the publication was unpacked & on the Web. 07:30:41 ShaneM has joined #dpub 07:31:06 ... That has consequences on e.g. what is the canonical identifier of a publication. If the local fs vanishes from the equation and we think in terms of URIs, that's a major win. 07:31:58 Jake: might be possible to do some of that, I'm hoping we can get to a point where we can do a fetch to a page & ipe the stream into a handler 07:32:17 That would work around the memory issues. 07:32:37 ... If you navigate to a fs location that didn't exist but you wanted to make it exist, that'd be hard, and has security issues. 07:32:39 q+ 07:32:42 Especially with a Web-based OS. 07:32:49 ack dan 07:34:49 Myles: So Ivan mentioned benefits of using service worker. There are drawbacks - security issues & added complexities of running a Web server inside your layout program. I don't think it's worth it. 07:35:43 Jake: if you're wanting to present publications online with an endpoint that works offline then I think SW is a good option. 07:36:02 ... If you're saving to the fs a zip of content yuo could then unzip... 07:36:34 [discussion of whether Web server and SW is suitable, or too heavy-handed] 07:37:19 Brady: today many reading systems are already doing this, e.g. playbooks, puts HTML content in a [native] WebView 07:37:52 ... and we make requests for resources & grab them from the fs. Can't store books on fs, have to encrypt. So stuff happens, and this is common for a Web-based reading system. 07:38:06 ... Requests are going to a notive app that fulfills them from local storage. 07:38:18 Other case is you have content on the Web 07:38:37 We want to serve the images for a book [on the Web] in an encrypted way so they don't end up in the browser cache. 07:39:03 ... You download the content in the context of the SW & transform it before putting it on the screen. 07:39:16 You don't *need* SW but there are nasty workarounds you have to do in that case. 07:39:52 Jake: If we're talking about a directory with an HTML file in it, I don't think that would work. The SW requires a static location, and it woudn't be static if you moved the files around. 07:40:27 Brady: SW makes sense when the book lives on the Web & you [use local fs as a sort of offline cache] 07:40:56 scribenick: dauwhe 07:41:00 LarsG: comment: 07:41:21 ... the encrypted connection to downloaded images, why don't you just use cache control 07:41:22 Hax has joined #dpub 07:41:26 brady_duga: I don't know impl details 07:41:34 ... there were concerns about intercept content 07:41:39 ... i don't know details 07:41:47 q? 07:41:49 JakeA: http resources can be cached 07:41:55 brady_duga: we have silly code 07:42:07 q+ 07:42:17 JakeA: on the encrypted data side we're storing data in a database on a disk, but unencrypted 07:42:26 ... the web crypto api is there 07:42:34 ack dan 07:42:40 ... chrome says if you've installed something on your file system you've lost security 07:42:52 DanielWeck: from a RS perspective 07:43:03 ... there's a separation between native apps and hybrid apps 07:43:17 ... native apps vs pure web readers 07:43:23 ... in native app you can do anything 07:43:28 ... use custom url handlers 07:43:37 ... the genereal case in readium is the web reader 07:43:44 ... we work around owp platform limitiations 07:43:51 ... in that context SWs are brilliant 07:44:10 ... in the context of a native app you don't need service workers 07:44:18 ... about content protection 07:44:24 ... we use a combination of mechanisms 07:44:31 ... in order to strongly obsfucate 07:44:38 ... so user can't access content 07:44:55 ... usually users can steal data from developer tools 07:45:10 ... another example is with chrome we can access html5 file system 07:45:20 ... we cache content locally in html5 filesystem 07:45:27 ... it's security by obscurity 07:45:29 q+ 07:45:33 ... files themselves are clear 07:45:40 ... but the file paths are obsfucated 07:45:48 yubo has joined #dpub 07:46:02 ... we've combined different mechanisms so users can't easily access unencrypted content 07:46:08 ... it's a mitigation effort 07:46:19 JakeA: i'm working on a course to teach offline first 07:46:27 ... there's a series of coding tasks 07:46:41 ... with gif prizes 07:46:52 ... so I added null byte to the start of each image 07:46:56 ... then strip it off 07:47:05 ... so you can do smarter things 07:47:14 ... you're talking about cordova 07:47:17 ... there's a plugin 07:47:30 https://github.com/MobileChromeApps/cordova-plugin-service-worker/blob/master/README.md 07:47:41 (combination of mechanisms to protect content / intellectual property: e.g. security by "obscurity", obfuscation of file paths within the local cache or HTML5 filesystem) 07:47:44 ... i like using the web instead of native 07:48:01 ... on chrome team we want to hear what's hard on web platform but easy on native + web view 07:48:07 ack jeff 07:48:08 ... tell us about those things so we can fix them 07:48:23 Present+ Jake_Archibald 07:48:55 jeff_xu: whhen we run out a resource, how can we clear the service worker 07:49:05 jeff_xu: browser makes no promises about retaining storage 07:49:11 ... it can clear out origins 07:49:16 ... a full origin at a time 07:49:28 ... there's a storage API 07:49:38 ... where you can request persistent storage 07:49:45 ... which requires permission from the user 07:49:59 ... but that is then permanent, essentially installed by owner 07:50:08 ... we're working on what those steps by me 07:50:19 ... perhaps based on being added to home screen 07:50:44 s/jeff_xu: browser/JakeA: browser/ 07:50:55 jeff_xu: it is possible to set priority between service workers 07:51:09 ... some we want to keep running, some we want cleared 07:51:23 JakeA: there are different kinds of workers with different live cycles 07:51:33 ... started by events, killed once event ends 07:51:43 ... browser may keep running to save on startup costs 07:51:50 ... idea is for them to disappear soon 07:52:01 ... if you want something to hang around, you want worker or shared worker 07:52:14 jeff_xu: how to check health of current service works 07:52:20 JakeA: there are error listeners 07:52:27 ... you can check state of registration 07:52:32 ... that's all observable 07:52:38 yubo_ has joined #dpub 07:52:46 ... we have open issue if service worker fails when there are no pages 07:53:33 skk: the future of SW on top of web tech, but we can choose another mechanism 07:53:45 ... for simple thing, we can install cache server (?) 07:53:58 ... not sure if this design choice is appropriate for this domain 07:54:09 ... but SWs are useful for other web services 07:54:17 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 07:54:17 ... before talking about tech details 07:54:28 ... I want to know pros and cons of this design choice 07:54:39 ... but there might be another presentation 07:54:42 JakeA: I agree 07:54:59 ... SW isn't answer on filesystem with self-executing bundle 07:55:11 ... you could have an ebook reader website that uses SW to work offline 07:55:19 ... either by a click or drag and drop 07:55:40 ... and it could give you the bundled format if you ask 07:55:46 tzviya: that's why we had this meeting 07:55:50 to log issue on GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/issues 07:55:56 ... to find out if we're on the right track 07:56:10 ... if you have other suggestions add issues 07:56:20 JakeA: is the user flow documented anywhere? 07:56:27 tzviya: how they open a book? 07:56:39 ivan: there isn't one; there are several 07:56:49 ... we give use cases in the doc 07:56:57 ... if I have an online sci journal 07:57:03 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 07:57:05 ... might have lots of goodies 07:57:16 .... but then I want to annotate it on the train, so I want it on my machine 07:57:29 ... or publisher wants to sell me this thing, they want to sell one unit 07:57:36 ... that's where the package comes in 07:57:43 ... whether it's offline or online... 07:57:54 ... these are all situations user may hit when interacting with publishing today 07:58:08 ... the difficulty is that we can of course come up with smart ideas about doing it one way 07:58:20 ... but there is a billion dollar industry that has its own publishing habits 07:58:27 ... we must adapt to what is out there 07:58:40 ... maybe a smooth transition to where everything is on the web 07:58:52 JakeA: I'm not suggesting that, I just wanted to have the pattern in my head 07:58:57 ivan: there are several 07:59:10 JakeA: SWs would be useful for publishers to host books so they would work offline 07:59:16 ... and for making a web-based app 07:59:31 ivan: for me the SW is a tool or approach to unify these different patterns 07:59:37 ... some of which are awkward 07:59:48 ... but I have a way to mmove forward without destroying what's out there 07:59:55 ... there's a practical aspect 08:00:01 tzviya: thank you everyone 08:00:51 tzviya: thanks to Jake 08:00:57 JakeA: thanks for inviting me 08:01:03 --adjurned 08:01:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:01:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan 08:01:13 s/adjurned/adjourned/ 08:01:22 zakim, bye 08:01:22 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Charles_LaPierre, Tzviya_Siegman, Vlad_Levantovsky, Dave_Cramer, Karen_Myers, Rob_Sanderson, Heather_Flanagan, Liam_Quin, 08:01:22 Zakim has left #dpub 08:01:25 ... Lars_Svensson, LarsG, glazou, myles, Jeff_Xu, duga, Judy, Florian, SteveZ, mgylling, Benjamin_Young, csarven, Bert, Bos, Bert_Bos, Richard_Ishida, Chris_Lilley, Lea_Verou, 08:01:25 ... Taketoshi, Yamane, fantasai, Peter_Linss, Rossen, Dean_Jackson, David_Baron, Daniel_Weck, Jake_Archibald 08:01:35 rrsagent, bye 08:01:35 I see no action items