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04:36:14 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
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04:41:57 <MichaelC> meeting: Breakout Session: WAI-ARIA - Speculating on the Future of ARIA in the Context of Emerging Requirements
04:42:04 <MichaelC> topic: Framing questions from MichaelC
04:42:06 <MichaelC> Questions for ARIA engineering
04:42:06 <MichaelC> Is, or should be, ARIA:
04:42:06 <MichaelC> * a technology to fill a11y gaps in new technologies
04:42:06 <MichaelC> * a replication on the Web of platform AAPIs
04:42:06 <MichaelC> * a complete accessible user interface description language
04:42:09 <MichaelC> Where a11y semantics exist in other languages, does ARIA need to replicate them?
04:42:11 <MichaelC> * Pro: 1 language may have the semantic but others do not
04:42:13 <MichaelC> * Pro: Lower learning curve on AAPI with ARIA alone
04:42:15 <MichaelC> * Con: There are more ways to do things, confusing for authors and harder for
04:42:17 <MichaelC> implementers
04:42:19 <MichaelC> Does ARIA have a role beyond providing semantics that map to AAPIs? Or should non-
04:42:23 <MichaelC> AAPI accessibility features be provided another way?
04:42:25 <MichaelC> Do we expect all ARIA features to be mapped by mainstream user agent, or might some
04:42:27 <MichaelC> of them be mainly for scripts etc.? Does that help define what might be an ARIA
04:42:29 <MichaelC> feature vs a "something else" feature?
04:42:31 <MichaelC> A given feature could be met in many different ways:
04:42:33 <MichaelC> * ARIA role
04:42:35 <MichaelC> * ARIA state or property
04:42:37 <MichaelC> * HTML/SVG/etc. element
04:42:39 <MichaelC> * HTML/SVG/etc. attribute
04:42:41 <MichaelC> * CSS property
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04:42:44 <joanie> q+ Chaals
04:42:45 <MichaelC> * Media query
04:42:47 <MichaelC> * RDFa
04:42:49 <MichaelC> * Web Annotations
04:42:53 <MichaelC> * JSON
04:42:55 <MichaelC> * Web API feature
04:42:57 <MichaelC> * Another metadata taxonomy hooked in in some way
04:42:59 <MichaelC> * others?
04:43:01 <MichaelC> How do we decide which is the optimal solution for a given feature?
04:43:03 <MichaelC> There is a lot of interest in de-ghettoizing a11y, both from the process of how we
04:43:05 <MichaelC> work with WGs and from the engineering of where features land. How does the future of
04:43:07 <MichaelC> ARIA impact that?
04:43:09 <MichaelC> Do we have an interest in having a11y reasonably completely defined in one technology
04:43:11 <MichaelC> How can we discuss accessibility feature requests, with straw engineering proposals,
04:43:13 <MichaelC> without getting lost in engineering weeds before the feature itself is fully vetted?
04:43:15 <MichaelC> How can we work now on a vision for the future, without being distracted from the
04:43:17 <MichaelC> task of completing ARIA 1.1?
04:43:19 <MichaelC> What groups do we need to discuss a new a11y engineering model with?
04:43:23 <MichaelC> * Web Platform
04:43:25 <MichaelC> * SVG
04:43:27 <MichaelC> * CSS
04:43:27 <joanie> ack chaals
04:43:29 <MichaelC> * TAG
04:43:31 <MichaelC> topic: Discussion
04:43:33 <MichaelC> jf: worried about author fatigue
04:43:35 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
04:43:37 <MichaelC> chair: ad hoc
04:43:39 <MichaelC> jf: how do we teach authors all these things
04:43:41 <MichaelC> ack c
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04:43:50 <jamesn> q+
04:43:54 <LJWatson> Q+
04:44:12 <MichaelC> present: Joanie, Markku, JasonJGW, MichaelC, MarkS, Cynthia, Léonie, John, JamesN, Shane, Janina, Hober, @@*4
04:44:34 <MichaelC> cn: authors implement via copy paste
04:44:44 <MichaelC> with no understanding
04:44:54 <MichaelC> we need the ARIA functionality to migrate into mainstream browser
04:45:02 <MichaelC> rather than via scripts and hacks
04:45:38 <MichaelC> one barrier to this is the way scripting works right now, things would break in some circumstances
04:46:20 <MichaelC> jgw: +1
04:46:39 <MichaelC> need to balance author desire to create new components, and allow them to do so fully accessibly
04:46:51 <MichaelC> with need to standardize stuff as much as possible
04:47:15 <jamesn> q?
04:47:20 <clapierre> Present+ Charles_LaPierre
04:47:55 <MichaelC> when creating new features, need way that doesn´t involve going through a WG and all that stuff to be able to provide the a11y
04:48:08 <MichaelC> AAPIs provide this to some extent, but rely on AT implementation
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04:48:32 <MichaelC> q+ JF
04:48:52 <MichaelC> well defined way to extend things
04:49:03 <MichaelC> q+ cynthia
04:49:04 <hober> q?
04:49:11 <MichaelC> ack james
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04:49:43 <MichaelC> jn: there are ARIA attributes for lots of web authors
04:49:50 <JF> Present+ JF
04:49:52 <dcooney> present+ dcooney
04:50:01 <MichaelC> and other attributes used only by specialized component developers
04:50:10 <MichaelC> the first set needs a full equivalent in host languages
04:50:14 <mhakkinen> +q
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04:50:50 <mhakkinen> ack ljwatson
04:50:53 <MichaelC> the ARIA version should be available for those who want it, but the host language version should be preferred by the masses
04:51:25 <MichaelC> lw: right now can´t access DOM in some browsers
04:51:34 <MichaelC> which means we need full built-in implementation of ARIA
04:51:44 <MichaelC> cs: could provide access to DOM
04:51:58 <MichaelC> lw: would like a testing effort to identify gaps in host languages
04:52:04 <MichaelC> and where things could be fixed with existing features
04:52:11 <MichaelC> ack next
04:52:39 <MichaelC> jf: the I in ARIA is for Interaction
04:52:59 <MichaelC> the Web isn´t a document medium anymore, it´s a platform for sharing and posting
04:53:29 <joanie> q+ Chaals
04:53:32 <MichaelC> do we want to sequester ARIA to interaction, and solve other problems in other ways?
04:53:37 <MichaelC> or use ARIA to solve other problems
04:53:46 <MichaelC> s/problems/problems?/
04:54:03 <MichaelC> right now there are lots of user groups not well addressed by ARIA
04:54:13 <LJWatson> s/which means we need full built-in implementation of ARIA/Which means right now unless ARIA is mapped to the acc APIs it isn't possible to access it in that browser./
04:54:20 <MichaelC> concerned that browsers see ARIA as something that is handed off to AAPI
04:54:23 <MichaelC> and that´s that
04:54:28 <MichaelC> think we need more than that
04:54:56 <joanie> q+
04:55:03 <dcooney> q+
04:55:11 <MichaelC> how do browser vendors see ARIA?
04:55:28 <MichaelC> q+ janina
04:55:32 <MichaelC> ack next
04:56:02 <MichaelC> cs: we see ARIA as a way to expose AAPI to developers
04:56:34 <MichaelC> with complex applications, I´ve heard developers would rather do all one thing
04:56:41 <MichaelC> all ARIA, or all native, rather than a mix
04:56:54 <MichaelC> re implementing other stuff, if it works with the AAPI, yes
04:57:18 <MichaelC> chair: Markku
04:57:27 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
04:58:14 <MichaelC> complicated to answer from other scenarios
04:58:21 <MichaelC> the COGA proposal doesn´t feel like a natural fit to ARIA
04:58:23 <JF> Q+ to point to track element as a more mainstream solution
04:58:28 <MichaelC> I had viewed it as a peer to ARIA
04:58:42 <MichaelC> present+ Kenny
04:59:06 <MichaelC> we´re talking about more robust extensibility mechanisms for ARIA 2.0
04:59:16 <MichaelC> to describe behavior not just identity
05:00:18 <MichaelC> cn: the options are div soup + ARIA, or HTML 5
05:00:33 <MichaelC> if you do div soup, ARIA has to address all the needs
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05:01:24 <MichaelC> then you have developers copying lots of script just to implement e.g., a button
05:01:42 <MichaelC> why not just a native feature with all the AAPI and interaction features built in?
05:02:39 <MichaelC> q+ to say I always thought of ARIA as a bridging technology; I hear some expressing that; but know others have come to see ARIA as a content tech in its own right
05:03:00 <MichaelC> circle back to existing content would break
05:03:14 <MichaelC> if UAs started providing native support for ARIA features
05:03:38 <MichaelC> such as adding native interaction to an ARIA button, which also has script attached to it
05:03:45 <MichaelC> and browser can´t reliably turn the script on and off
05:03:49 <MichaelC> ack next
05:04:25 <MichaelC> mh: for assessment, there are a lot of innovations taking place
05:04:38 <MichaelC> that are well understood in that space e.g. by teachers
05:04:53 <MichaelC> have HTML 5 implementations, good keyboard support, etc.
05:05:03 <MichaelC> but struggling with how to describe the visual affordances non-visually
05:05:26 <MichaelC> there is noise from the GUI lens of looking at things
05:05:55 <MichaelC> the descriptions of objects are the noise
05:06:05 <MichaelC> cs: using name doens´t work?
05:06:11 <MichaelC> mh: role description gets us part way there
05:06:15 <MichaelC> also want state description
05:06:27 <MichaelC> and have it ubiquitous in AT implementation
05:06:50 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about naming and multiple languages
05:06:51 <MichaelC> cs: this is a choice the AT makes?
05:06:59 <MichaelC> mh: would be great if the AT didn´t have to do anything
05:07:13 <MichaelC> jn: if you say this is a pizza, how does the user know what they can do to it?
05:07:33 <MichaelC> mh: in an assessment exercise, an available action might be ¨take slice¨
05:07:44 <MichaelC> jn: but that´s no a known operation
05:07:53 <MichaelC> mh: right; we want that in the description
05:08:18 <MichaelC> jf: what do we mean by AT?
05:08:21 <MichaelC> screen readers?
05:08:26 <MichaelC> or inclusive of other
05:08:31 <MichaelC> mh: also readaloud tools
05:08:34 <dcooney> q-
05:08:59 <MichaelC> cs: people with different disabilities have different needs
05:09:07 <MichaelC> mh: which is part of the learner profile
05:09:13 <MichaelC> that impact how it´s customized
05:09:19 <MichaelC> which matches with the COGA model
05:09:41 <MichaelC> ms: we have to consider localization factors
05:09:53 <MichaelC> cs: UIA has a localized control type
05:10:14 <MichaelC> ms: in assessment context, there is tight control
05:10:26 <ShaneM> q- ShaneM
05:10:43 <MichaelC> cs: are standardized tests available in other languages?
05:10:45 <MichaelC> mh: most are
05:10:52 <MichaelC> ack next
05:11:11 <MichaelC> cn: if ARIA is a patch language rather than a holistic one
05:11:20 <MichaelC> it doesn´t try to compete with other languages
05:11:20 <dcooney> q+
05:11:31 <MichaelC> if it competes with some piece of HTML or SVG
05:11:40 <MichaelC> there could be different ways to do the same thing with different outcomes
05:12:03 <MichaelC> e.g., the ARIA way works in AT but doesn´t have interaction built in; HTML way has interaction but not AT
05:12:13 <MichaelC> then somebody gets screwed either way
05:12:25 <MichaelC> so replicating functionality is a big architectural ail
05:12:29 <MichaelC> s/ail/fail/
05:12:35 <MichaelC> q+ cyns
05:12:37 <ShaneM> q?
05:12:38 <MichaelC> ack next
05:13:09 <jamesn> q+
05:13:11 <MichaelC> jd: ARIA is out there in the wild
05:13:17 <MichaelC> sometimes being used in unexpected ways
05:13:22 <MichaelC> but gotta support those uses
05:13:28 <MichaelC> once they take hold
05:14:05 <MichaelC> example of Google Docs that pumps info to screen readers via live regions
05:14:28 <MichaelC> jf: for screen reader, I understand this
05:14:53 <MichaelC> but want to question ¨ARIA is great for screen readers therefore ARIA is the way forward¨
05:14:57 <MichaelC> it might not address all user needs
05:15:19 <MichaelC> jd: clarify that ARIA isn´t just for interactive any more
05:15:38 <MichaelC> I´m not advocating a direction, but need to be aware of what is happening
05:15:41 <MichaelC> ack next
05:16:06 <MichaelC> js: initially ARIA was a patch
05:16:35 <MichaelC> we intended it to have a limited life
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05:16:51 <JF> ack jf
05:16:51 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to point to track element as a more mainstream solution
05:16:56 <MichaelC> but it became evident that it was a useful way to fix bad pages
05:16:57 <MichaelC> q-
05:17:41 <MichaelC> so now we want to use it as a way to push things into AAPI
05:17:48 <MichaelC> such as current efforts with DPub
05:18:19 <MichaelC> DPub expects the ARIA roles to be mainstream in the Epub context
05:18:51 <MichaelC> we don´t know how to do all of that yet
05:19:00 <MichaelC> jf: have we have a robust discussion with browser vendors
05:19:08 <MichaelC> that this is a direction that will work for them?
05:19:31 <MichaelC> solving for EPub readers is great
05:19:42 <MichaelC> but will it fragment if the web browsers don´t take it up?
05:20:10 <MichaelC> js: are you saying if it doesn´t go in mainstream browser, we shouldn´t do it?
05:20:12 <MichaelC> various: no
05:20:15 <MichaelC> lw: @@
05:20:52 <MichaelC> js: it will help for us to explore the concepts outside of the final engineering proposal
05:21:01 <MichaelC> some of the solutions may come from here and some from there
05:21:09 <MichaelC> jf: so let´s clearly define our problem statements
05:21:15 <MichaelC> and discuss solutions with others
05:21:28 <mhakkinen> +q
05:21:29 <MichaelC> worried about trying to engineer aria-supersolution
05:21:51 <MichaelC> js: think we´ll be able to shift the engineering proposal from COGA
05:21:52 <MichaelC> ack next
05:22:15 <MichaelC> dc: Dominic from Blink
05:22:23 <MichaelC> present+ Dominic
05:22:56 <MichaelC> there are ways to engage with browser developers without being a supplicant
05:23:39 <MichaelC> Blink is developed by a lot of different developers
05:23:44 <MichaelC> with various background knowledge
05:23:55 <MichaelC> with screen reader bias because it´s something they can get their heads around
05:24:09 <MichaelC> a11y engineers have to work within larger project plans
05:24:19 <MichaelC> so would help to bubble things up there
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05:25:05 <MichaelC> jf: it´s common that people without deep a11y expertise focus on screen readers
05:25:14 <MichaelC> I do want to communicate that there is a deeper picture
05:25:44 <MichaelC> and question whether ARIA is the solution in all cases
05:26:30 <MichaelC> mc: interesting parallel between defaulting to screen readers, and defaulting to ARIA
05:27:18 <MichaelC> dc: there isn´t a concern per se of HTML native vs ARIA
05:27:38 <MichaelC> but whether there is a single clear place that it´s spec´ed
05:28:07 <MichaelC> would be good if there was layering where accessibility features of HTML were expressed in terms of an accessibility spec
05:28:25 <MichaelC> so there is no duplication
05:28:42 <MichaelC> right now ARIA isn´t expressive enough to play that role
05:28:49 <MichaelC> jf: do we want it to be?
05:28:59 <MichaelC> or do we want it for other things
05:29:53 <MichaelC> dc: with web components coming, having a way to do that extensibility would be really valuable
05:29:55 <MichaelC> q?
05:30:09 <jamesn> ack me
05:30:22 <MichaelC> ack c
05:30:55 <MichaelC> cs: not sure it´s bad for there to be differnt ways to solve a11y problems
05:31:02 <MichaelC> cn: is bad if they conflict
05:31:18 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
05:31:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
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05:31:45 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
05:31:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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05:46:35 <jamesn> q?
05:46:57 <ShaneM> dominic: Isn't the Javascript a11y api just another api?
05:47:06 <dcooney> q+
05:47:28 <ShaneM> cyns: I wasn't thinking about text. I was thinking about the accessibility tree (e.g. ranges).  Maybe they are the same thing.
05:47:33 <ShaneM> oops. sorry
05:47:51 <jamesn> q+
05:48:25 <dcooney> q-
05:48:31 <dcooney> present- dominicc
05:48:36 <dcooney> present- dcooney
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