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04:35:18 <danbri> intro from cwilso
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04:39:58 <jeff> Is anyone scribing?
04:40:21 <jeff> Alex: This came from talking to many publishers
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04:40:41 <jeff> ... this is resulting in several seconds of improvements
04:40:53 <jeff> ... @@ beginning of this is unscribed.
04:41:09 <jeff> @@@who: clarify the benefits from this modifications
04:41:20 <jeff> Alex: It is not a modification.  It is a set of web components
04:41:25 <jeff> ... Polymer, Amp
04:41:31 <jeff> ... they define their own tags
04:41:37 <jeff> ... result of extensibility
04:41:45 <jeff> ... focused on performance for publishers
04:42:05 <jeff> ... HTML Content is quite fast
04:42:19 <jeff> ... 1000 words and a video can load quick.
04:42:25 <jeff> ... problem is stuff on the outside
04:42:35 <jeff> ... font requests, script requests.
04:42:41 <jeff> ... AMP does not let you do this.
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04:43:08 <jeff> Yoav: SEO benefits
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04:43:52 <jeff_> Alex: No active content.  Helps with security.  Others (e.g. Twitter can use)
04:44:13 <jeff_> @@@Questioner: So end user benefits
04:44:17 <karl> q+
04:44:30 <jeff_> ... Big web sites can support more users.
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04:44:43 <jeff_> Paul: Why did you limit this to publishers
04:44:59 <jeff_> Alex: Mostly because we've limited what you can do; better fit for publishers
04:45:11 <jeff_> scibenick: jeff
04:45:18 <danbri> q?
04:45:18 <jeff_> scribenick: jeff
04:45:27 <jeff_> chair: Chris
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04:45:39 <jeff_> [Alex does Amp demo with kittens]
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04:46:24 <jeff_> Alex: Demo says - after you've downloaded please install service worker
04:46:34 <jeff_> ... this will result in consistent performance despite the network
04:46:46 <jeff_> ... On the second load we get a richer show
04:46:50 <jeff_> ... like an applications
04:46:55 <jeff_> .... responsive design
04:47:09 <jeff_> ... 50frames per second animation
04:47:16 <jeff_> ... not possible with AMP today
04:47:31 <jeff_> ... but consistent because the surround came from local disk using service worker
04:47:49 <jeff_> ... We can also extend set of elements
04:47:56 <danbri> demo is at https://infrequently.org/15/amp-up/demo/amp-shell-demo.html
04:48:00 <jeff_> ... carefully consider each element that it won't kill performance
04:48:12 <jeff_> ... too easy to hurt performance.
04:48:35 <jeff_> Chris: We call this "for publishing" because these docs are mostly static
04:48:48 <jeff_> ... also they see big need for performance and user experience
04:48:57 <jeff_> KarlD: What's in it for Google.
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04:49:08 <jeff_> Chris: Google wants the web to be fast.
04:49:13 <jeff_> Karl: I mean Google.
04:49:14 <tzviya> q+ to ask for more info on publishers
04:49:21 <jeff_> DanBri: When the web sucks we suck
04:49:27 <jeff_> ack karl
04:49:53 <jeff_> Chris: Simple things should be on a fast path.
04:49:58 <jeff_> ... bumper bowling
04:50:05 <jeff_> ... want to do more - take off the bumpers
04:50:20 <jeff_> ... we'll add more web components into library
04:50:31 <jeff_> Karl: In the demo there are links to the amp project
04:50:42 <jeff_> ... will these scripts be local?
04:51:02 <jeff_> ... if you remove the CDN of amp project
04:51:11 <jeff_> Chris: THere is an overestimation of what AMP is.
04:51:22 <jeff_> ... just a library to keep performance good.
04:51:34 <jeff_> ... no ISO standard for AMP
04:51:48 <jeff_> Yoav: Would it be AMP for SEO and app integration benefits
04:52:03 <jeff_> Chris: Today - no.  That is driven by experience not AMP-ness
04:52:11 <jeff_> Alex: This is an active discussion.
04:52:24 <jeff_> ... I think we want speed.  Ask for speed not AMP.
04:52:35 <cwilso> Q?
04:52:41 <jeff_> ... out of standards context - we are just beginning to address the perf problem
04:52:53 <jeff_> ... "AMP for Speed is good - but we want Speed"
04:53:11 <jeff_> Chris: THe focus is on AMP because speed is hard to define
04:53:26 <jeff_> ... page load time? -  just one metric
04:53:35 <jeff_> ... hard to teach people to design for speed
04:53:47 <jeff_> ... we give dev tools, pattern, but not the only tactic.
04:54:07 <jeff_> Alex: Easy to screw-up scrolling performance, layout, resource loading, network, etc.
04:54:18 <jeff_> ... bumper bowling.
04:54:29 <jeff_> ?: Carousel?
04:54:37 <jeff_> Chris: Gives you carousel.
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04:55:15 <jeff_> Alex: They are taking poll requests on github
04:55:16 <paulc> q?
04:55:20 <jeff_> Chris: Under discussion
04:55:24 <jeff_> ack tzv
04:55:24 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask for more info on publishers
04:55:49 <jeff_> Tzviya(DPUB IG): You mentioned publishing.  Say more about publishing.
04:55:55 <jeff_> Alex: We mean a large news website
04:56:05 <jeff_> ... Do you mean dead-tree conversions?
04:56:05 <paulc> q+
04:56:27 <jeff_> Tzviya: We are looking at books - but no paper; no dead trees.
04:56:43 <jeff_> Alex: Ad team is working with news publishers.
04:56:56 <jeff_> [Chris, please drop the link for the list of publishers?]
04:57:18 <cwilso> It's in AMPproject.org
04:57:26 <jeff_> Paul: Set aside web components approach
04:57:42 <jeff_> ... you are effectively getting better performance by profiling HTML and the OWP
04:57:49 <jeff_> ... will you bring this profile to W3C?
04:58:01 <jeff_> ... this profile gives you good performance.
04:58:19 <jeff_> Alex: Last year we ripped stuff out of Blink as an experiment
04:58:28 <jeff_> ... e.g. no descendant selectors for CSS
04:58:34 <jeff_> ... [other examples]
04:58:45 <jeff_> ... we can do better is what we learned.
04:58:51 <jeff_> ... but AMP did not come from Chrome.
04:59:04 <jeff_> ... this came from search team
04:59:10 <jeff_> ... working with content producers
04:59:16 <jeff_> ... we'll have to bring them in.
04:59:26 <dino> q+
04:59:28 <jeff_> ... they are talking to us [Chrome].
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04:59:41 <jeff_> ... at that point we can bring this in as a proposal.
04:59:42 <karl> ack paulc
04:59:53 <jeff_> Paul. By profile I mean a constrained subset.
05:00:20 <jeff_> ... if AMP elements are different syntax with constrained semantics, you could apply the semantics to the original HTML element
05:00:25 <jeff_> Chris: In some cases we can
05:00:29 <jeff_> ... but not all
05:00:45 <jeff_> ... Embedding Twitter element is not going to be baked into HTML.
05:00:52 <jeff_> ... we could have a fast path and slow pather
05:01:00 <jeff_> ... not sure if we want to do that
05:01:04 <jeff_> ... can consider
05:01:14 <jeff_> ... this informs people how to write fast code.
05:01:22 <jeff_> ... may not be amp
05:01:26 <sangwhan> Q?
05:01:32 <jeff_> Alex: This is not necessarily fast.
05:01:39 <jeff_> ... skip preload scanner
05:01:54 <jeff_> ... crazy that this ends up the general pattern.
05:02:11 <jeff_> ... agree we need to bring these gains into the platform.
05:02:18 <jeff_> ... contrafactual is that web sites are slow
05:02:29 <jeff_> ... this is one of many exercises to find new elements
05:02:39 <jeff_> ... not necessarily done in a standards body.
05:02:47 <jeff_> ... components allows folks to invent without us
05:02:53 <jeff_> ... no permission or consent
05:03:06 <giuseppe> q?
05:03:10 <jeff_> ack d
05:03:26 <jeff_> Dino: How does the project decide what to include?
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05:03:34 <jeff_> ... why Twitter?  why not Weibo?
05:03:46 <jeff_> Chris: Like any other project.  Pull requests.
05:03:56 <jeff_> ... responsive to publishers
05:04:10 <jeff_> Dino: But they say "monetize"   Which ad networks?
05:04:22 <jeff_> Alex: Publishers care about analytics packages.
05:04:46 <jeff_> ... working on open source versions
05:04:57 <danbri> dino, see also https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md "Important criteria for acceptance of an Extended Component is that an http://oembed.com/ integration already exists and that the thing being integrated has an actively maintained Wikipedia page."
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05:05:26 <jeff_> Dino: If I were a different browser I could choose not to load
05:05:32 <jeff_> Alex: Like anything else.
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05:05:54 <jeff_> Arnaud: For the record, pull requests are requests - not how they get decided.
05:06:02 <jeff_> Chris: True.  Goal is a fast content platform.
05:06:16 <danbri> also see https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/tree/master/3p
05:06:17 <jeff_> ... I don't make the decisions.  I can only explain their motivation.
05:06:27 <jeff_> Dino: Fast and with certain features.
05:06:32 <jeff_> Chris: Yes.
05:06:38 <jeff_> [everyone agreeing]
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05:06:57 <jeff_> Chris: Powerful enough
05:07:12 <jeff_> ... long list of new requirements.  If demand, it will happen.
05:07:28 <jeff_> Dino: As a browser vendor this is awesome.  I don't need to do anything to benefit.
05:07:45 <jeff_> Alex: They'd like to not need web component polyfill.
05:08:04 <jeff_> q?: What is performance problem with video.
05:08:22 <jeff_> Alex: Replace content.  Knowing aspect ratio.  User experience is fluid.
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05:08:31 <jeff_> ... later content doesn't re-flow.
05:08:45 <jeff_> ... people do this with images all the time.
05:09:00 <jeff_> ... hard to get aspect ratio with responsive design.
05:09:13 <jeff_> Chris: To be clear, anything in amp can be done in HTML.
05:09:20 <jeff_> ... just need those bumpers.
05:09:35 <jeff_> q?: What are we doing wrong.
05:09:47 <jeff_> Alex: CSS Replace content has many problems.
05:09:47 <cwilso> Q?
05:10:23 <jeff_> [discussion of different approaches to achieve same goal]
05:10:39 <jeff_> Yoav: Regarding enforceability, this should be for general fast web
05:11:07 <jeff_> ... but OTOH; can't guarantee performance from static analysis
05:11:19 <jeff_> Alex: A flaw in AMP is that you can make slow AMP documents
05:11:24 <jeff_> rrsagents, make minutes
05:11:34 <jeff_> rrsagent, make minutes
05:11:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-amp-minutes.html jeff_
05:11:40 <jeff_> ... fonts are a mess
05:11:55 <jeff_> ... match fonts with styles; won't fetch ahead of time
05:11:58 <jeff_> ... hits performance
05:12:04 <jeff_> ... hard to get correct
05:12:12 <jeff_> ... browsers want to be lazy
05:12:21 <jeff_> ... Chrome holds on for 3 more seconds
05:12:42 <jeff_> ... amp can wait for CSS enhancements
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05:12:58 <jeff_> Yoav: Other way.  If I have a fast non-AMP; how do I get twitter integration
05:13:06 <jeff_> ... I need to lazy load images
05:13:17 <jeff_> Alex: Yup.  Bug in the way the content is consumed.
05:13:26 <jeff_> ... we need an upgrade strategy.
05:13:35 <jeff_> Chris: We define fast irrespective of amp
05:13:45 <jeff_> ... webaudio for SEO
05:13:57 <jeff_> Alex: You don't need polyfills.
05:14:14 <jeff_> Yoav: But if I want it to work w/o customer elements...
05:14:21 <cwilso> S/we define/we should define/
05:14:25 <cwilso> Q?
05:14:29 <jeff_> Alex: Not ideal.  Fudges
05:14:35 <jeff_> ... still Big for publishers
05:14:52 <jeff_> Yoav: Iterating in user land, but can we do better?
05:14:55 <jeff_> Alex: Yes.
05:15:00 <jeff_> Yoav: Bake into platform?
05:15:09 <jeff_> ... browser can enforce.
05:15:14 <jeff_> Alex: Let's talk!
05:15:22 <danbri> q?
05:15:26 <slightlyoff> q?
05:15:33 <karl> q+
05:15:39 <jeff_> Alex: Shall we talk about breaking the web?
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05:15:52 <jeff_> Karl: You talked to a lot of publishers.
05:16:02 <jeff_> ... why did you need this solution.
05:16:12 <jeff_> ... tools exist to improve performance.
05:16:32 <jeff_> Alex: Without something that changes relationship between business and dev can't fix the problem
05:16:41 <jeff_> ... even Ilya can't get it done.
05:16:46 <jeff_> Ilya: Alex is right.
05:17:00 <jeff_> ... can't remove tags
05:17:05 <jeff_> ... some other constraint.
05:17:18 <jeff_> MikeChamp: How does Amp solve?
05:17:35 <jeff_> Alex: Handwaving to business.  This is how it is done!
05:17:37 <jeff_> q+
05:17:44 <jeff_> Mike: How does it help?
05:17:52 <jeff_> Ilya: It's a reset>
05:17:57 <jeff_> ack karl
05:18:52 <jeff_> Jeff: So make it a standard - strengthens the handwaving
05:18:56 <jeff_> Alex: Validator is key
05:18:59 <jeff_> ack je
05:19:11 <jeff_> ... combined with UI treatment, developer story
05:19:16 <jeff_> ... so yes, maybe.
05:19:26 <jeff_> ...  I think of it as a way to evolve HTML.
05:19:40 <jeff_> ... since they are custom elements - a crawler will tell us what people are using.
05:19:46 <jeff_> ... Hixie did it for HTML5
05:20:01 <jeff_> ... easier with custom elements
05:20:06 <jeff_> ... they have UI
05:20:12 <jeff_> ... they have meanings
05:20:19 <jeff_> ... AMP one vocab that can help
05:20:30 <jeff_> Chris: Just making it a standard is a challenge
05:20:34 <jeff_> ... this is very targeted
05:20:45 <jeff_> ... may need a different set for a different people.
05:21:07 <jeff_> Jeff: That's why Paul was calling it a profile.
05:21:14 <jeff_> q?: Case studies
05:21:30 <jeff_> Chris: we can get them, but it is super-early.
05:21:56 <jeff_> ... not yet published
05:22:13 <jeff_> Ilya: Plenty of case studies (hundreds)
05:22:18 <jeff_> ... but not compelling
05:22:19 <cwilso> S/can/will/
05:22:26 <jeff_> ... not optimizing speed.
05:22:35 <jeff_> ... AMP changes the equationg
05:22:43 <jeff_> ... you had been doing it wrong
05:22:48 <jeff_> rrsagent, make minutes
05:22:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-amp-minutes.html jeff_
05:23:07 <jeff_> @@: That's a measurement problem.
05:23:07 <fsasaki> q+
05:23:14 <jeff_> Ilya: Still not compelling enough.
05:23:29 <jeff_> Paul: Programmers are infected to do things complicated
05:23:37 <jeff_> ... hard to get them to simplify
05:23:48 <jeff_> ... engineering/business conflict
05:23:59 <danbri> q?
05:24:20 <fsasaki> q-
05:24:24 <jeff_> Arnaud: amp-html tutorial says it is for publishing content everywhere
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05:24:31 <jeff_> ... you might tone it down
05:24:37 <jeff_> ... create-page md
05:24:47 <jeff_> Alex: Send a pull request
05:24:56 <jeff_> Arnaud: You got it  --- Verbally
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05:25:47 <jeff_> [Google people scramble to find it]
05:26:05 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
05:26:05 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-amp-irc#T05-26-05
05:26:15 <danbri> rrsagent, please draft minutes
05:26:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-amp-minutes.html danbri
05:26:31 <Arnaud> freudian slip?
05:26:34 <jeff_> Yoav: If desire is a fast-mode; what's the plan to get publishers there.
05:26:45 <jeff_> Chris: Plan is to identify what fast means.
05:26:49 <jeff_> ... get people to be fast.
05:26:56 <danbri> rrsagent, please make logs public
05:27:05 <jeff_> ... I don't care how they do it.
05:27:36 <jeff_> ... I won't penalize them if they use angular
05:27:44 <jeff_> Yoav: Assuming you can identify
05:27:48 <jeff_> Chris: Difficult challenge
05:28:09 <jeff_> [ovation}
05:28:13 <jeff_> [adjourned]
05:28:22 <jeff_> rrsagent, make minutes
05:28:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-amp-minutes.html jeff_
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