00:00:55 RRSAgent has joined #aria 00:00:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-irc 00:01:04 rrsagent, do not start a new log 00:01:09 rrsagent, make log world 00:01:19 meeting: ARIA FtF Day 2 00:01:22 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA 00:01:27 chair: Rich_Schwerdtfeger 00:01:31 rrsagent, make minutes 00:01:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 00:01:45 present+ Tzviya_Siegman 00:02:07 present+ Rich+Schwerdtfeger 00:02:47 mck has joined #aria 00:03:27 scribeNick:jamesn 00:03:39 mhakkinen has joined #aria 00:03:44 present+ Léonie_Watson, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, MichaelC, Mark_Sadecki, John_Foliot, James_Nurthen, Joanmarie_Diggs, Jason_White, Judy_Brewer, Cynthia_Shelly, Kenny_Zhang, Takeshi_Kurosawa 00:03:52 rrsagent, make minutes 00:03:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 00:04:06 present+ Charles_LaPierre 00:06:26 Can has joined #aria 00:07:03 CS: SO the topic is script based accessibility 00:07:14 TOPIC: Script-based A11y 00:07:21 3 inputs WAPA 00:07:28 Indie UI Events 00:07:36 Web Accessibility API from Mozilla 00:08:09 so what I was thinking is that we would talk about use cases and what we are trying to achieve 00:08:16 Wei_Wang has joined #aria 00:08:24 present+ Kenny_Zhang, Can_Wang, Wei_Wang 00:08:27 Judy has joined #aria 00:08:37 the use cases of the 3 proposals overlap then need to look at the 3 different proposals and how they might meet the use cases or not 00:08:49 the ideal is to have 1 propoal in the end 00:08:53 tzviya has joined #aria 00:09:07 side piece is that platform APIs have a bunch of pieces which oeverlap but some that don't 00:09:28 Web apis may need some of these to platform APIs may need to fill some holes 00:09:39 Does anyone have use cases? 00:10:24 So - 1 of the big use cases is virtualization. 2 really good examples. 500 page word doc. don't have it all in the dom. you want you AT to know you are on paragraph 342 for example 00:10:46 long lists are another example. search results, facebook feeds etc. are other uses. you don't have the whole list in the dom 00:11:01 another use case we have thought about is increasing performance 00:11:39 the winjs control set - a JS control set - has a list control. They were managing the posinset and setzise in aria. found that pushing all those strings around was costly 00:12:17 2 things looked at. 1 was exposing the properties and another was an event which gets fired when there is a call from the api so you can react when someone is listening 00:12:25 so not pushing the strings around unless consumed 00:12:40 we are less concerned with automated testing 00:13:14 MK: if you are doing automated testing of a webpage. simplest example is does it have a name. essentially in a test tool you have to implement the name calculation yourself 00:13:18 q+ 00:13:54 RS: 1 of the problems with native plaform testing. on the mobile devices for androis and apple the apis are undocuemtned 00:14:13 jessebeach has joined #aria 00:14:20 would be helpful to have 1 consistent layer rather than having to test on each platform. would love to not have the mapping guides. 00:14:44 had the discussion with JC - asked for mappings. repsonse was that we are the only at so why do we need to supply this 00:15:17 one of the things we need to do is have device independent interaction. lots of the indieUI stuf f we need to look at 00:15:20 q+ to provide use-case of data-based simulation 00:15:42 largest cost to web apps is keyboard support. 00:16:03 any API that we do do - lets say if there is a property change - i dont want the web app person to send the event to the at 00:16:16 we should be able to do that and make things easier for authors 00:16:45 CS: there are use cases for both of those. there are times the compoentn needs to fire the events and the other times the browser should do it for you 00:16:58 i hear authors wanting more specific cxontrol 00:17:08 RS: i hear they want to force things 00:17:20 MK: we don;t want that 00:17:34 q+ 00:18:50 s/cxontrol/control 00:18:54 RS: different types of authors 00:19:01 RS: power users and others 00:19:07 s/don;t/don't 00:19:08 RS: the 2 have to be able to operate together 00:19:17 CS: I think there are models for that in other places 00:20:30 mhakkinen has joined #aria 00:20:36 RS: we enforce structure in aria. a problem in early api dev is we didnt do that 00:20:47 try to fit properties into buckets of apis 00:20:57 they include the state information in labels 00:20:58 etc 00:21:03 we are giving a bigger chainsaw 00:21:09 going to require thought 00:21:20 CS: want to design a socket set not a vice grip 00:21:28 AS: 2 things 00:22:28 AS: 1 part is provide access for testing and screen readers and other AT to enable a screen reader is JS for example 00:22:54 the 2nd is alternative to aria where don't have to deal with DOM. Can create the accessible object in JS and feed to the AT 00:22:54 q? 00:23:01 ack me 00:23:13 ack tz 00:23:13 tzviya, you wanted to provide use-case of data-based simulation 00:23:16 ack tzviya 00:23:31 TS: some of the use cases in the world of publishing could be DB simulations 00:24:05 where have a huge data set and dont want it loaded into the dom. There is a simulation - a CSV for example where a user can maniuplate a graphic in some way 00:24:21 an example in journal publishing 00:24:28 we are strugling how to make it availble 00:24:49 CS: someone i know had an econ 200 class where there was a flash object where could move things around 00:25:16 RS: with control patterns this will get addressed. don't currently get input events from AT 00:25:31 q+ to ask if anyone has discussed the privacy implications 00:26:34 RS: web programming model is different focussed in events coming in. MSFT model is nice but there are 2 sifferent groups. web and native and need to look how work 00:26:49 CS: an event could bubble but not every thing in the chain handles it 00:26:57 probably ways around it 00:27:15 lots of interesting things. how far should onclick bubble etc 00:27:19 tricky area 00:27:45 ack jessebeach 00:27:48 q? 00:27:50 JB: wanted to understand who the sudience would be. there are conflated asks 00:28:09 JB: 1 would be access to the a11y tree - then the ability to interact with that information 00:28:22 JB: who we talk to next would inform what you would ask for 00:28:36 CS: office needs to do stuff like in the native plaform applications 00:28:46 CS: other complex web applications have the same issue 00:29:14 JB: from the perspective of the FB newsfeed. I don't think we would want write access to another model of the inforpmauton. Has the risk of getting out of sync 00:29:18 asurkov has joined #aria 00:29:45 JB: potential for collisions. the 1st xhort step to make the a11y infromtion. Make the tree read-only first. 00:30:02 CS: In browsers with a tree that makes sense - not all do 00:30:19 RS: 1 thing in the 508 refresh is that can change state from an application 00:30:32 RS: we devs dont expect the dom to change from AT 00:30:46 spent about 2 weeks on revised wording on the refresh 00:30:51 maybe we do do that 00:31:04 CS: office barely touches the DOM. Want to do everything in the JS layer 00:31:16 Can_ has joined #ARIA 00:31:25 JB: if you look at angular , react etc. the model is treating the DOM as the state of the application 00:31:56 CS: enabling a different style of dev 00:32:06 there could be ways to mix that would be bad practice 00:32:10 and others not 00:32:25 CS: if a Checkbox was just a JS object and an image then could react to it 00:32:34 q? 00:32:34 JB: would love to see prototypes 00:32:49 JB: with edge can go into about flags with accessibility experimaental 00:33:01 CS: the WAPA demos should work there 00:33:21 s/JB: with edge /CS: With edge/ 00:33:26 ack me 00:33:26 jamesn, you wanted to ask if anyone has discussed the privacy implications 00:34:27 JN: privacy could be an issue and we need to think about this carefully. 00:35:02 RS: in Vista UI Automation was for testing then added the accessibility on top of that 00:35:18 RS: could be automated test procedures - could be stuff on mobile 00:38:00 TS: epub in germany is not kindle and they have a bunch of accessibility preferences 00:38:29 CS: are there other use cases which are difficult to solve in markup 00:39:02 RS: content editable. need to move the caret - an API which would convey the inforomation to notify the position within an object, when focus moves etc 00:39:19 RS: normally 1 person working on content ediatble for the browser 00:39:27 CS: webapps has a whole TF on editing 00:39:37 RS: if there is no api then you are hosed 00:39:45 ebook reader is Tolino Shine: http://mytolino.de/ (in German) 00:40:07 CS: 1 thing i like about wapa is that it builds. we built ontop of the stuff they were doing in the editing spec 00:40:30 RS: 1 thing that ia2 and atk do well is the location of charcters. early UIA disn't do that 00:40:41 RS: table support is horrific in some platforms 00:41:05 RS: some of the things we do in rich web content like embedding stuff in tables. need to look at the apis to find out where there are gaps 00:41:13 CS: editing is a big use case 00:41:31 q? 00:41:49 JW: raises some questions 00:42:10 all the UAs that work on multiple OSes have an internal api which is bridged to OS API 00:42:19 that is the layer you are suggesting may be connected to 00:42:34 related to the APis of the OSes which could be taken advantage of 00:42:47 also interested in the realtionship between any api and what happends in the DOM 00:43:29 some Apps make use of the aria attributes to control the UI. A legit use case - doesn't breacj the constraint on aria of requiring the UA to do stuff but does alloew the author to take advanteage 00:45:03 in HTML have a distinction between IDL attributes and content attributes - what is the makrup and the JS. the IDL attributes represent the content attributes 00:45:14 aboxhall has joined #aria 00:45:22 could create IDL attributes for all the state and property attributes. can think about how we want to do that 00:45:48 connection between any events related proposal and the indieui event work and the WebPlatform WG Editing work 00:45:56 joanie_ has joined #aria 00:46:08 what we want is a uniform treatment of intention events which would apply however those events originaTE 00:46:32 IF GOING TO see more semantically expressive event types on the web then need a more uniform treatement 00:47:03 see how we can harmonize work in this area 00:47:28 RS: said not using the dom. how are you doing styling on the object model 00:47:37 CS: not completely sure. in the doc area 00:48:01 they keep the visual rendering and the semantic rendering seperate. have some black magic 00:48:15 history 00:48:16 kind of like a shadow dom kind of thing 00:48:25 the a11y information is in JS objects 00:48:34 want something more similar to windows 00:48:42 q+ 00:48:56 RS: what they are doing is creating a different object model. almost non-web 00:49:10 CS: i believe google docs works a similar way 00:49:40 RS: would make it very hard to do what JW suggested. if trigger off object model then not going to be reflected 00:50:38 CS: you are getting JS events. If design is such that exposing stuff to the user. can react to the toggle event and check the checkbox. there is a JS object and DOM object. In reaction to the JS event the script changed the JS object representation and the DOm representation 00:50:57 CS: dont have to haev 2 trees but some do and no solution currentyly 00:51:05 RS: may not want to map the dom at all 00:51:11 going to be very challenging 00:51:24 have 2 differnt trees. 1 has focus etc. 00:52:07 CS: like canvas 00:52:15 s/breacj/breach 00:52:32 q+ Jason 00:52:34 s/alloew/allow 00:52:53 s/advanteage/advantage 00:52:54 q? 00:52:59 acke jessebeach 00:53:11 q? 00:53:20 ack jesse 00:53:23 JB: when i did a visual representation through canvas without dom. 00:54:07 q? 00:54:09 JB: there are similar proposals out there. Would like to hear more from Alex. the moz proposal as i understand it would create an association between a11y node and dom noed. sounds like MSFT doesn't have that at the moment 00:54:16 how to resolve this 00:54:19 q? 00:54:34 ack Jason 00:54:59 RRSAgent, draft minutes 00:54:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-minutes.html Kenny 00:55:08 JW: the possibility of what is in the dom being inconsistent with the a11y api. Have concerns about anything that may compicate that 00:55:14 q? 00:55:16 q+ to talk about multiple OMs 00:55:30 JW: the information about the a11y related state is maintained. If there are performance concerns. 00:55:51 anything with 2 trees which aren't connected is of concern 00:55:52 q? 00:56:00 ack tzviya 00:56:00 tzviya, you wanted to talk about multiple OMs 00:56:02 TS: observation 00:56:04 q? 00:56:19 multiple object models. concerns from multiple groups 00:56:44 css object model, css selectors to create annoations, and another 00:56:50 q? 00:56:54 if we are concerned about 2 what happends when there are 4 00:57:19 s/another/shadow DOM 00:57:25 i heard your concern jason - but this is a very advanced scenario. devs with multiple trees would be responsbile for keeping them in sync 00:57:45 big complex commerical apps with developers on it. sometimes you need sharp knives to do a job 00:58:10 would not expect a web site dev to use them directly 00:58:27 agree that trees in sync is hard. but already the case 00:58:39 DOM, Shadow doms, fallback content, etc. etc. etc. 00:59:07 all exists now. what i am trying to achieve is some sort of not stupid way to communictae between those layers 00:59:15 sam has joined #aria 00:59:17 RS: dont want test tools going to the api layer 00:59:28 rs: need a layer in the browser that handles all of this 00:59:44 otherwise need to think how going to test thos 01:00:11 want to have a way of testing across devices 01:00:30 CS: working with a11y the mac office team did a bunch of work. 01:00:45 seems unliekly to me that we are going to put a layer in the browser 01:00:55 don't see it as likely 01:01:09 We also really want a web app and windows app to act the same 01:01:34 office for win and office for android etc. the user shouldn't have to care. visually that is largely true now 01:01:42 not there yet at the a11y layer 01:01:58 RS: if push to the native plaform then going to be very scostly 01:02:16 RS: test it once - if platform layer has a mapping bug then it is a bug 01:02:19 rumk has joined #aria 01:02:22 can stop their work there 01:02:39 need to have something that runs across platforms. need things to be consistent 01:02:51 CS: we wire more directly from the DOM to UIA 01:03:20 CS: does this app work the same is our test practice 01:03:28 a different angle on it 01:04:06 RS: my product teams. can test once in the browser and then with ATs on the platforms. Can't do special API tests on the plaforms 01:04:14 RS: we like not having to do that 01:04:22 CS: both scenarios are real 01:04:36 q? 01:05:38 RS: what we do now is use webdriver - run a11y test tools right off that infrastructure. go into the dom and test 01:05:58 that has a limit in that we have those other object models where you can get that 01:06:14 i was thinking of that as being the webdriver testing work 01:07:18 CS: have a test that does a bunnch of ui actions then checks that the right results and the right a11y events got fired etc. etc. etc. 01:07:38 so i know when AT consumes the api we know everything got through 01:08:05 RS: If I am creating the web application i don't want to test that the apis go to the browser 01:08:13 lets think about aria 1 01:08:38 browsers didn't have full api mapping support. do i not ship becuase a browser doesn't do the API? People hack around the bug 01:08:52 the average app developer can't call the edge team 01:09:23 CS: 2 assumptions is that all the browsers have a lot of work to do on mapping. if that is done it should be the same thing testing the dom vs. the API 01:09:29 RS: yet to see that happening 01:10:03 MK: more likely to happen if do cross browser implementation 01:10:18 CS: used to test at API layer - found that didn't correlate to works with AT 01:10:35 AT on windows are spaghetti 01:10:48 RS: the way it is 01:12:40 timeless has joined #aria 01:12:51 CS: do you see it being used primarily for testing or also for web apps? 01:13:06 AS: writing a screen reader for web devices and we needed this 01:13:13 RRSAgent, make log public 01:13:18 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:13:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger 01:13:23 q? 01:13:24 CS: is this implemented 01:13:26 Josh_Soref has joined #aria 01:13:31 present+ 01:13:34 AS: yes based on XPCOM stuff 01:13:41 no demos 01:13:50 CS: Is it on by default 01:13:57 AS: yes but have to have permission for it 01:14:20 AS: Our old API is exposed. connected to the DOM but different tree 01:14:27 s/noed/node 01:14:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-aria-minutes.html timeless 01:14:51 CS: can you send directions on how to do that 01:15:03 from a plugin 01:16:13 s/present+/present+ Josh_Soref/ 01:16:40 scribe: timeless 01:16:56 ZZZ: we sent to the Group our draft 01:17:04 ... it includes the ZZQ kind of interfaces 01:17:07 s/ZZZ/AS/ 01:17:09 ... IAccessible2 interfaces 01:17:17 ... the second is AccessibleStream Interface 01:17:24 ... virtual cursor, allows you to traverse web content 01:17:30 ... traverse text stuff and accessible object 01:17:33 cyns has joined #aria 01:17:33 https://wicg.github.io/a11yapi/ 01:17:40 ... not yet finished, you can get an idea about it 01:17:50 ... other parts I didn't push yet 01:18:01 ... you should be able to write/describe what role 01:18:05 ... what states/actions/etc. 01:18:12 ... if you introduce new role extensions, like debug extensions 01:18:23 ... you should be able to describe--write in JavaScript what the new taxonomy is 01:18:28 s/debug/DPUB 01:18:31 ... what relationship between this stuff and existing taxonomies 01:18:48 ... browser should be able to map new stuff into existing Accessibility APIs automatically 01:18:52 ... that's the third part 01:19:01 ... the fourth part is to write accessible interfaces right in JS 01:19:08 ... useful, if you don't want to use ARIA 01:19:17 ... you don't want to put accessibility stuff right in your web content 01:19:21 ... you don't know if you have any consumers 01:19:32 ... so you describe accessible objects in JS, create when asked 01:19:41 ... or if you want to create stuff that doesn't have DOM, like