IRC log of sdw on 2015-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:28:49 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
23:28:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
23:28:51 [Zakim]
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23:28:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
23:28:53 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
23:28:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
23:28:54 [trackbot]
Date: 25 October 2015
23:30:38 [eparsons]
RRSAgent, make logs public
23:31:00 [eparsons]
Meeting: SDW TPAC Day 1
23:31:52 [eparsons]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:32:34 [eparsons]
present+ eparsons
23:35:58 [eparsons]
Still waiting for a few people...
23:37:38 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
23:42:46 [phila]
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23:42:48 [Linda]
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23:44:41 [phila]
phila has changed the topic to: US Toll Number: +1-617-324-0000 Access code:646 139 528 Ask Phila if you need the password
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23:49:41 [eparsons]
Still a few connection porblems...
23:49:58 [phila_]
23:51:28 [ahaller2]
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23:55:12 [phila]
chair: Ed and Kerry
23:55:45 [phila]
present+ Ed, Kerry, jtandy, Linda, BartvanLeeuwen, ahaller2, phila
00:01:57 [eparsons]
scribe: ahaller2
00:03:39 [Kerry]
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00:04:10 [Kerry]
Presentt+ kerry
00:04:43 [Kerry]
Present+ kerry
00:04:55 [eparsons]
jtandy In describing context of BP document "Best practice not best theory"
00:05:05 [phila_]
-> TNhe Charter
00:05:10 [phila_]
00:06:53 [eparsons]
jtandy - "spatial data still mostly in SDI silos"
00:07:37 [yeonsoo]
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00:07:55 [ahaller2]
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00:08:07 [phila]
eparsons: If we can provide the mechanisms, it will make it much easier for people to publish spatial data
00:08:20 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
00:08:21 [phila]
... we all feel that there's more that cna be done to make it easier for publishers
00:08:31 [ahaller2]
00:08:41 [phila]
scribe: ahaller2
00:08:46 [phila]
scribeNick: ahaller2
00:09:23 [ahaller2]
jtandy: assumption is that the Web is the data sharing platform
00:10:07 [ahaller2]
... how can machine detect facts, especially if places are expressed in different levels of granularity
00:11:01 [ahaller2]
... ABS, for example, is publishing data within spatial regions
00:11:33 [ahaller2]
... challenge is, to combine data that may refer to the same place, or not
00:11:42 [phila]
Europe uses NUTS codes to refer to regsions for statistical reasons.
00:12:11 [ahaller2]
00:12:31 [ahaller2]
... identify tools and methods for publishing geospatial data
00:13:01 [ahaller2]
phila: geoJSON for example, is a language that is not standardised
00:13:14 [yeonsoo_]
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00:13:16 [ahaller2]
... Time Ontology is not a recommendation
00:14:08 [ahaller2]
jtandy: places change over time, and therefore the temporal aspect is important to be captured
00:15:09 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we only formalise a standard where necessary
00:15:23 [phila]
present+ Chunming
00:15:41 [ahaller2]
... benefit to point to best practises rather than inventing a long list of recommendation
00:17:12 [ahaller2]
phila: reminding that this group runs in collaboration with the OGC
00:17:37 [ahaller2]
jtandy: OGC is about 25 years old
00:17:55 [ahaller2]
... based around a consensus process
00:18:11 [ahaller2]
... working drafts in this group are published as drafts in OGC
00:19:02 [phila]
-> The WG's Use Cases doc
00:19:16 [ahaller2]
eparsons: is doing patent call
00:19:48 [eparsons]
00:19:56 [Kerry]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
00:20:13 [ahaller2]
phila: OGC requires to say at the beginning of every meeting to ask if there are patent claims
00:20:40 [ahaller2]
no objections from the group
00:21:54 [eparsons]
Still connectivity issues for windows users - noted :-)
00:22:40 [ahn]
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00:23:53 [Sangchul]
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00:23:56 [ahaller2]
jtandy: is presenting the use cases document
00:24:50 [phila]
present+ Sangchul, yeonsoo, Ahn
00:24:51 [ahaller2]
... linking data is one of the key aspects we will be working on
00:25:18 [ahaller2]
... second objective is semantics, just enough semantics
00:26:05 [ahaller2]
... to describe, for example, other metadata in GeoJSON that is not geometries
00:26:12 [eparsons]
The seven themes Liking data, Publishing Data, access via API's, Discovery, ID's, spatio-temporal , Sensors
00:27:23 [ahaller2]
... another aspect is to describe places, for example, in the UK, if you say, we meet 'on the green' for tea and cakes on a sunday afternoon, we need to know what 'the green' is
00:28:12 [ahaller2]
... enabling discovery is another important aspect of this WG
00:28:24 [eparsons]
OCC standards require expertise in Geospatial
00:28:30 [ahaller2]
... assignment of identifiers
00:29:29 [ahaller2]
... for example, features, like a post box, or railway station, but in the geospatial world, the document is meant, whereas in the LOD there is a separate identifier for both
00:29:38 [eparsons]
Things vs Features different approaches SDI and Web
00:29:51 [ahaller2]
... expressing temporal and spatial information
00:30:13 [ahaller2]
... we want to be able to give you a best practise to when to use what vocabulary
00:30:59 [ahaller2]
... there is also the Time Ontology which needs updates, first published in 2006, but it can only to Gregorian calendar
00:31:32 [ahaller2]
... we need another temporal reference system
00:32:00 [ahaller2]
... there is no way of describing intervals as first class citizen
00:32:31 [eparsons]
BartvanLeeuwen questions around vague descriptions of time
00:33:11 [ahaller2]
... another important aspect in this group is to talk about sensors
00:33:21 [ahaller2]
... there is the existing SSN ontology
00:33:37 [ahaller2]
... there is also an observation and measurement ontology
00:34:23 [ahaller2]
... we want to formalise how this metadata for sensors is best published
00:35:02 [ahaller2]
... the last aspect is, dealing with large datasets
00:35:46 [chunming_]
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00:37:07 [phila]
-> BP doc editors' draft
00:37:45 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we need to subscribe as a group to the 'Architecture of the Web' principles
00:38:13 [ahaller2]
... best practises that do not fit with the AOW are not acceptable
00:38:28 [jtandy]
00:39:08 [ahaller2]
eparsons: OGC may not subscribe to these AOW principles, but this group is on the forefront to potentially initiate this change
00:40:14 [ahaller2]
jtandy: OGC recognises that 'pointy APIs' as they call it is really useful on the Web, but some of their recommendations are too complex and don't work well implemented in APIs
00:40:19 [yeonsoo]
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00:40:59 [ahaller2]
edparsons: OGC is developing standards for the spatial community, but they recognise that other people on the Web use their geospatial standards
00:41:38 [ahaller2]
s/Web use/Web would use
00:42:17 [ahaller2]
bart: maybe we can say this the other way round too, maybe the Linked Data approach is not used by the Web community either
00:42:54 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we did agree in this group that the Linking of data in the geospatial domain is really important
00:43:55 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we love the 5 stars, but we don't need always to aim for that
00:44:26 [ahaller2]
sangchul: we use URIs to recognise physical objects
00:44:45 [phila]
-> BP draft, now with Linda included as an editor
00:45:02 [ahaller2]
... we develop
00:45:15 [phila]
present- Ahn
00:45:46 [Kerry]
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00:46:41 [ahaller2]
... in an article that we published recently in a journal, we propose a different approach to identifying things other than URIs
00:47:27 [ahaller2]
eparsons: it is very valuable that we get input from the community to know what other approaches to recognise things are in the geospatial community
00:48:38 [ahaller2]
tahar: do you intend to extend SSN for other uses cases
00:48:49 [ahaller2]
kerry: yes, we intend to extend SSN
00:48:59 [ahaller2]
00:49:16 [jtandy]
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00:49:28 [jtandy]
Semantic sensor network ontology:
00:49:53 [phila_]
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00:50:10 [ahaller2]
kerry: there is for example, actuations that is not covered by SSN and which may not be enough driver in this group, but the WoT working group might provide us some input here
00:51:14 [ahaller2]
jtandy: currently there is a disjoint between how geospatial community formalise observations and measurements and how the semantics community is doing it
00:51:23 [phila__]
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00:51:44 [ahaller2]
tahar: SSN does not have a big enough footprint yet
00:52:58 [ahaller2]
kerry: there are other things bubbling up that are related to SSN, for example, the sensor things api in the OGC
00:53:28 [ahaller2]
tahar: I have followed the academic community, but the developers are not yet picking up the SSN on the Web
00:54:33 [eparsons]
ahaller2 Group will make SSN more modular ? More accessible
00:55:08 [ahaller2]
bart: most providers of sensor data want to keep their data close, as it is there unique selling proposition
00:55:23 [ahaller2]
... they are not interested in publishing data freely
00:55:39 [Kerry]
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00:55:52 [ahaller2]
eparsons: the market will decide if a standardised approach will succeed
00:56:04 [phila__]
q+ to highlight
00:56:53 [ahaller2]
jtandy: one of the themes we need to focus on is to provide data through APIs
00:57:14 [phila]
ack p
00:57:14 [Zakim]
phila__, you wanted to highlight
00:57:20 [ahaller2]
eparsons: the OGC is challenged by defining what an API is
00:58:09 [ahaller2]
tahar: footprint SSN could have for sensors, we need SSN to be less data intensive
00:58:32 [ahaller2]
kerry: yes, that is one of the aims in this WG
00:59:06 [ahaller2]
jtandy: the ontological commitment to the dolce upper level ontology is known to be an issue for the uptake
00:59:08 [phila]
RRSAgent, this meeting span midnight
00:59:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting span midnight', phila. Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:59:14 [phila]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
00:59:44 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we aim to do a spatial rosette to the spatial data 5 stars
01:00:27 [ahaller2]
jtandy: Another aim of this group is to align with the Data on the Web Best Practises WG
01:00:35 [jtandy]
01:00:43 [Kerry]
01:00:45 [jtandy]
(data on the web best practices)
01:00:54 [eparsons]
ack next
01:01:25 [ahaller2]
phila: the DOW WG has some very basic recommendations, such as 'you should provide metadata', but there are more techie ones later
01:01:38 [phila]
01:02:14 [ahaller2]
jtandy: since we are based on this work, we don't have to write down that we need metadata, because that is assumed by this DoW WG document
01:02:22 [ahaller2]
01:02:57 [ahaller2]
jtandy: Hadley Beeman is the chair of the DWBP WG and she will be joining us
01:04:15 [eparsons]
Kerry We should note where we interest with other groups eg. Data on the Web, WoT
01:04:26 [ahaller2]
kerry: we need to take notes today for things that we need to sync with these groups, i.e. DWBP and the AoW
01:04:49 [jtandy]
linking data theme:
01:04:51 [ahaller2]
s/and the AoW/
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01:06:15 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we are not doing SSN in the next two days, focus on the BP document
01:06:54 [ahaller2]
jtandy: however, we need to hear from people how they intend to use the SSN ontology, because that will inform the BP document too
01:13:09 [ahaller2]
jtandy: planning the rest of the day and the distribution of the themes for the remainder of today and tomorrow
01:13:44 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:13:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
01:14:02 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
01:14:07 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:14:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
01:15:39 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:15:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
01:21:21 [phila_]
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01:54:39 [phila]
Topic: Linking Data
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01:57:42 [jtandy]
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01:59:18 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller
01:59:24 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
01:59:50 [phila]
present+ Lars
01:59:57 [phila]
scribe: phila
02:00:00 [phila]
scribeNick: phila
02:00:21 [Kerry]
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02:00:23 [phila]
eparsons: Before we start writing, we thought we'd talk a bit about GitHub
02:00:33 [yeonsoo]
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02:01:00 [phila]
jtandy: Shows the GH repo
02:02:07 [phila]
... talks about Pull Requests
02:02:45 [phila]
... Request is that everyone contributes, but that only editors merge Pull Requests
02:03:03 [phila]
Jeremy Demonstrates GH process
02:05:36 [phila]
-> ReSpec
02:07:01 [phila]
jtandy: Shows importance of making a summary comment when creating a PR
02:07:57 [phila]
Please don't make changes directly in gh-pages
02:11:47 [phila]
jtandy: Asks that you push to a branch and then create a pull request for the editors to merge your changes into the GH-Pages branch
02:12:51 [LarsG]
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02:14:09 [phila]
jtandy: Recommends using rebase cf. merge afetr fetching
02:15:05 [phila]
present+ Darko
02:15:08 [LarsG]
02:15:13 [phila]
present+ Andrei
02:15:46 [timbl]
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02:15:46 [phila]
present+ Sebastian (Siemens)
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02:15:52 [phila]
present+ timbl
02:15:57 [deiu]
present+ deiu
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02:16:39 [phila]
present- deiu
02:17:02 [phila]
eparsons: Is keen to get on
02:18:19 [phila]
eparsons: Asks jtandy to either create a wiki page about how the editors want to use Git or send a message to the list
02:18:58 [jtandy]
02:20:52 [phila]
Recording the fact that Jeremy completed his action to put info on the wiki before the scibe had a chance to put it in trackbot
02:21:01 [phila]
02:21:30 [phila]
eparsons: Now we areally are going to talk about linking
02:23:14 [phila]
-> Linking Data wiki page
02:23:32 [phila]
jtandy: Goes through the summary list
02:24:28 [phila]
jtandy: I think that linking between things at the dataset level is largely covered by DWBP. Its' about links between items within datasets, crawlable etc.
02:24:52 [phila]
eparsons: It's important to socialise this. As LD, Geo and Web community not all on the same page
02:25:24 [phila]
eparsons: The thing/the representation... we think in terms of the world in terms of points, lines and areas and we're happy to give those things IDs
02:25:50 [phila]
... but that's not always what we're talking about, esp if features don't have a geometry 'the Mid West', the east end of London etc/
02:25:58 [phila]
... or there may be many geometries
02:26:14 [phila]
Linda: But the whole Thing/feature discussion goes here or in the identification theme?
02:26:33 [phila]
jtandy: I think it goes in the ID theme but we still need to talk about linking
02:26:57 [phila]
... SDIs don't talk about the real thing, just the description which is an information record
02:27:07 [phila]
... whereas in the LD world, we want to identify the real world thing
02:27:36 [phila]
... We have agreed that the LD approach is what we want to follow, which doesn't necessarily mean RDF but that's probably the easiest way
02:28:14 [phila]
... Need to think about attributes. Lighthouses have things like a height, spatial coordinates etc.
02:28:41 [phila]
eparsons: I think we just need to write a narrative around the different world views
02:29:43 [phila]
jtandy: We see another feature that talks about the same thing. May see the lighthouse as a navigational aid
02:30:09 [phila]
jtandy: You can merge the different features that talk about the same thing (or not merge)
02:30:46 [phila]
... Imagine a dataset of lighthouses in UK, we'd give the dataset an id, and then inside the dataset there woujld be local identifiers
02:30:54 [eparsons]
Not merge is important
02:31:41 [phila]
jtandy: Local names are not typically URIs. We know we want to use URIs as identifiers. So we might take the dataset URI - which identifies a silo
02:31:48 [DArko_Anicic]
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02:32:36 [phila]
... think of a different dataset, this one about shiprecks near lighthouses. But problem is mapping the local IDs, we want to be able to express the linkages within the dataset
02:33:07 [phila]
eparsons: That introducesthe more fundamental issue - we need the granularity to be able to link to an individual lighthouse
02:33:50 [ahaller2]
s/introducesthe/introduces the
02:35:51 [phila]
timbl: So the aim is to produce a shim layer to enable things in the dataset to be exposed as LD?
02:36:02 [phila]
jtandy: I see that as being important, yes.
02:37:31 [phila]
eparsons: A shim might be the solution, but we want to encourage/enable people who are using W*S services to create that set of URIs
02:37:47 [phila]
... these are things you can add to your data to make it more linkable
02:38:03 [phila]
eparsons: We don't want to put any overhead on publishers that we don't need to.
02:38:39 [phila]
Kerry: I'd expect to go a little further in the ID section and talk about using URIs within the dataset
02:39:53 [phila]
jtandy: Talks about use of authoritative sets of URIs, if you can find them
02:40:08 [phila]
... and a third party might create a saemAs set
02:40:25 [ahaller2]
02:40:39 [phila]
LarsG: It's out of scope to discuss who has the authority to create those URIs
02:40:46 [phila]
Unanimous: yes
02:41:25 [phila]
timbl: Work will be done by people motivated to do it.
02:41:46 [phila]
... And the BPs should encourage/facilitate that
02:42:40 [phila]
eparsons: It might be helpful for us to help to identify those authoritative sets
02:42:43 [phila]
02:43:25 [phila]
eparsons: We could offer examples where it is appropriate to mint authoritative URIs
02:43:36 [eparsons]
ack next
02:43:59 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: I wonder if we want to go one step further and talk about features and making the properties more LD-like
02:44:11 [phila]
... How do I know what height means on a feature?
02:44:55 [phila]
jtandy: We need to enxure that when people are publishing data that they have explicit semantics
02:45:02 [phila]
02:45:14 [LarsG]
02:45:39 [phila]
jtandy: In the LD world, the predicate has a URI that you can look up. In the SDI world, it will be published as GML and that will say that it's written according to a XSD over there - and you don't always find that
02:45:43 [phila]
02:46:03 [Sebastian_Kaebisch]
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02:46:04 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: We have a case in emergency response when working cross broder
02:47:05 [phila]
jtandy: Talks about ht and ho as possible EN and DE abbreviations for height which would cause problems
02:47:29 [phila]
kerry: we are committed to making our vocabs multilingual as far as we can
02:48:07 [phila]
eparsons: Gives example of heights above sea level and floors in a building - different ways of describing the same thing
02:50:44 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: German and Dutch notions of ambulance are different since German ones have two types of crew depending on the expected severity of the incident
02:50:51 [phila]
... no equivalent in NL
02:51:24 [phila]
jtandy: Anyone could crerate a taxonomy of ambulances and it's up to the community to decide which one to use
02:51:25 [phila]
02:51:36 [eparsons]
ack next
02:52:02 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: if you're going to publish this data then people should be able to look up what it means
02:52:54 [eparsons]
ack next
02:53:15 [phila]
LarsG: I'm less concerned with false negatives. But false positives think that two things are the same - e.g. creator of the feature or the real thing
02:53:20 [yeonsoo]
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02:53:29 [phila]
jtandy: I recognise the problem you're identifying
02:53:52 [phila]
ack me
02:55:17 [ahaller2]
phil: people called the same thing different names. PROV has some good solutions for that. For example, for the lighthouse example, Navigator calls the lighthouse something, geographer another name. PROV can be used for that.
02:55:29 [ahaller2]
02:56:02 [phila]
jtandy: Because the GIS community has this issue of descriptions and real world things, we could refer to the Data in URLs work that JeniT did
02:56:26 [phila]
-> Data in URLs
02:56:46 [phila]
jtandy: The lighthouse is the thing. Landing page would be the record
02:57:01 [phila]
eparsons: The landing page is something I can crawl, a record in a database might not be that
02:57:23 [phila]
jtandy: This is an FPWD, it says that a landing page is similar to a record.
02:57:37 [phila]
... it makes some proposals around properties and shorthand properties
02:58:07 [phila]
timbl: From experience of playing with VCard... A card is a social entity, either person or organisation
02:58:14 [phila]
... you get this data that says this is a person
02:58:54 [phila]
... it represents a business card and you can get hooked up on this. It turns out that talking about the card isn't usually useful
02:59:17 [phila]
... in fact just treat it as being about the person
02:59:54 [phila]
... Life's too short to get too hung up. Punning can be good.
03:00:02 [ahaller2]
03:00:35 [eparsons]
ack next
03:01:10 [phila]
jtandy: I saw something about this in some work from CSIRO. What was accessible on the WEB via WFS, implied that certain things existed and then used those IDs about the real world as the basis for reconcilliation.
03:01:32 [phila]
ahaller2: In DCAT there is a distinction between a landing page and a document
03:02:08 [phila]
jtandy: I just put the data in URLs work up as an example of where someone has done similar work
03:02:18 [eparsons]
03:02:58 [phila]
ahaller2: DCAT has different URIs for dataset and landing page, CKAN does it differently
03:04:28 [phila]
jtandy: We don't want to go down the rat hole
03:05:04 [phila]
eparsons: In the BP doc, we'll need to recognise the problem and try and give some guidance without necessarily definitively solving it
03:05:39 [phila]
jtandy: We could perhaps point to the CSIRO work as an example of how to pull out/infer IDs for real world objects
03:06:15 [phila]
Linda: We added some data to some existing data about trees without getting too hung up on the details
03:06:37 [phila]
Linda: So we're saying that features are info records and for practical purposes you can treat it as the thing.
03:06:46 [phila]
Kerry: That's too strong
03:06:58 [phila]
timbl: I was saying you shoujldn't get too philosophical about it.
03:07:13 [phila]
timbl: The URI is generally for the thing and you're probably not so interested in the document
03:08:22 [phila]
jtandy: If I have an ID in the dataset for 'Eddystone' then maybe I can infer an identifier within a dataset of Lighthouses that 'Eddystone' is something like and that's the real thing
03:08:39 [phila]
Linda: So how do you know how to reconcile across datasets?
03:09:00 [Kerry]
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03:09:06 [phila]
jtandy: offers '303' and 'Eddystone' as internal IDs in diff datasets for the same thing
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03:09:40 [phila]
Linda: And if you know that they're the same, how do you make that assertion?
03:09:56 [phila]
jtandy: You need sometehing like a sameAs statement
03:10:37 [phila]
Linda: We have 2 datasets in NL about buildings, really a 1-1 set. One dataset has all the IDs of the other dataset in them.
03:11:02 [phila]
jtandy: If you choose to subscribe to the assertions that that two things are the same.
03:12:02 [phila]
eparsons: The key thing we need to do is to provide advice to publishers on how to make the data more accessible, more usefeul
03:12:39 [phila]
... we just need to come up with simple guidance. It's about URIs for your things, but I don't think we should worry too much about the mapping from one person's data to another.
03:12:47 [phila]
jtandy: reconciling is a hard job.
03:12:54 [phila]
eparsons: It's a really hard job.
03:14:45 [phila]
jtandy: There will be a debate about what people mostly want to ask questions about.
03:15:04 [phila]
... Channelling Bill Roberts, people want to ask questions about real stuff, not the records about them.
03:15:36 [phila]
eparsons: You can clearly version things as tech improves and techniques improve.
03:15:53 [eparsons]
03:16:37 [phila]
jtandy: Hydrologists define catchments. Historically, catchment has been defined as the basis of an elevation model which got updated and, in the process (computer-wise) created a new piece of the world.
03:17:05 [phila]
... I think we're agreeing that the entity that people are most interested in learnign bout is the real world thing.
03:18:12 [phila]
Kerry: Catchments don't have a real world existence. It's an abstract idea and they change anyway...
03:19:13 [phila]
LarsG: A real world object is a real world object in the domain of discourse. So if catchments are in the domain of discourse, they are real
03:19:33 [LarsG]
03:19:41 [phila]
Linda: So can we use the hydrology example as an example of a bad example?
03:19:51 [phila]
jtandy: I don't think we can...
03:20:09 [phila]
Linda: No the way they did it with the historial aspect
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03:20:27 [phila]
eparsons: Ah yes, but maybe without calling it a bad practice, mor an exmaple of someeting to avoid.
03:20:40 [phila]
jtandy: So we have 2 examples of BP we could apply
03:21:09 [phila]
... One on UK consistuency boundaries and the otehr is the Australian catchment data
03:21:14 [eparsons]
03:21:46 [phila]
jtandy: In CSV we have the crime data which was difficult as the boundaries of crime areas changed from one year to the next.
03:21:55 [phila]
eparsons: You need to say 'you need to hink about this'
03:22:02 [phila]
03:22:12 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:22:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
03:22:47 [phila]
jtandy: Point 3 on Linking data is Spatial datasets are different in that they will (usually) have an "extra level of structure and granularity that is reflected in the data" e.g. the use of geometry and spatial relationships
03:23:01 [phila]
... Is there something special about Geo that doesn't apply to non-geo data
03:23:29 [phila]
eparsons: I thought this was about recognising that geo data can be heirarchical - a village is part of a county is part of a country
03:24:00 [phila]
... there's a heirarchical relationship that isn't geospatial
03:24:30 [phila]
jtandy: There's a geographical, topological anad social heirarchy. Does that make our data special or is it all DWBP?
03:24:55 [phila]
eparsons: I don't want to fall down the trap of always using the topological relationships
03:25:09 [phila]
jtandy: Places without boundaries, or with indistinct boundaries
03:25:25 [phila]
... are a problem. We have social boundaries, like 'London'
03:25:56 [phila]
... I might want to say that my working place is 'in London' when it is legally somewhere else.
03:26:14 [phila]
Kerry: I think that's more of an identifier question.
03:26:36 [phila]
eparsons: I want to be able to link something I can draw a boundary around to something I can't (or vice versa)
03:27:23 [phila]
ahaller2: Questions the specialness of spatial data
03:27:53 [phila]
Kerry: I think we do need to define the relationships.
03:27:55 [phila]
03:28:10 [eparsons]
ack next
03:30:26 [ahaller2]
phila: talking about charter: relationships that are very well known in this community are not registered in the ? registry. Best practises document is only a note and not in the registry. But we are allowed as a group to develop further recommendations that we can put in the registry.
03:31:15 [ahaller2]
... link relationships are important and we may need to define a new recommendation, but it may be enough to have it in the Best practise document
03:31:41 [ahaller2]
s/?/IANA registry
03:31:55 [ahaller2]
s/registry registry/registry
03:34:15 [eparsons]
03:35:50 [phila]
-> IANA Link relations
03:36:45 [phila]
jtandy: We have had agreement in our discussions around point 5 - Links are first-class citizens - it is 'connectedness' that makes for "Data on the Web"; allowing one to discover new information by traversing those links
03:37:03 [phila]
eparsons: And I think that's where the biggest change will come in the GIS world
03:37:57 [phila]
jtandy: We want data to be traversible via links
03:38:19 [phila]
... We want our datasets to infer a bunch of hyperlinks that can be link to other people's stuff.
03:38:36 [phila]
Linda: So it's useful to have hyperlinks to things like Goenames, wikipedia etc.
03:38:41 [phila]
jtandy: It's not our job to curate those
03:38:55 [phila]
eparsons: No, but it's our job to give examples of what you can link to
03:39:10 [phila]
eparsons: In Open Street Map, every item has an ID that can be accessed via a URI
03:39:29 [phila]
... That's not true with WFS and I think OGC needs to move in that direction
03:42:10 [phila]
jtandy: We need to find a way to make it convenient to publish summaries of those linkages so that they can be discovered at the dataset level
03:42:58 [phila]
... You can publish things that refer people to a service that does stuff to the data
03:42:59 [phila]
03:43:04 [phila]
q+ to talk about HAL
03:43:09 [eparsons]
ack next
03:43:09 [phila]
q+ to talk about HAL
03:43:10 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about HAL
03:43:30 [phila]
ack me
03:43:30 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about HAL
03:44:02 [ahaller2]
phila: talks about HAL, IETF draft, it is not RDF, but Linked Data
03:44:36 [phila]
-> JSON Hypertext Application Language
03:49:18 [phila]
jtandy: Point 4 - Representations may be provided with varying degrees of authority and currency, for differing scales and purposes
03:49:38 [phila]
... There should be info about who published the data so otehrs can decide how authoritative it is.
03:50:05 [phila]
03:52:00 [phila]
eparsons: Talks about the many maps of Jersualem - none of them the same
03:52:13 [phila]
... so you need to know who produced each one so you can choose the one you want to use.
03:53:12 [phila]
eparsons: It's a common misunderstanding that maps are accurate and they agree.
03:53:21 [timbl]
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03:54:26 [phila]
=== LUNCH ===
03:54:36 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:54:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
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hadleybeeman, 202
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05:07:45 [eparsons]
=== LUNCH END ===
05:08:15 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
05:08:48 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
05:08:52 [eparsons]
kerry Web of things / SDW ad-hoc will take place on wednesday
05:09:02 [eparsons]
Details TBA
05:11:20 [phila]
eparsons: We want to recap the main points from this morning whuile it's fresh in our minds
05:11:26 [Sangchul]
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05:11:33 [phila]
present+ Ben WS
05:11:54 [phila]
-> Minutes from this morning
05:11:57 [eparsons]
scribe : eparsons
05:13:38 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+ to discuss dinner after this topic
05:13:57 [eparsons]
eparsons - recap of this mornings discussions to id main points for BP doc
05:14:45 [eparsons]
Linda Linking between things should be data on the web deliverable
05:16:04 [eparsons]
BartvanLeeuwen We should make sure there is practice not theory..
05:17:20 [eparsons]
jtandy links between representations via social identification
05:18:01 [eparsons]
phila relationships can come from SDW BP
05:19:13 [eparsons]
phila OK to use FPWD to identify "stable" relationships
05:20:30 [phila]
Key thing is that relations need to be 'reasonably stable' - the main spatial and temporal rels fit that description. Whether doc is a Note or rec doesn't matter.
05:22:48 [eparsons]
jtandy Need to provide practice to map from feature identifiers to global id's of things
05:25:51 [phila]
q+ to talk about
05:26:47 [eparsons]
jtandy if a id exists somewhere you should use it in your dataset, if not mint one
05:26:48 [timbl]
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05:27:21 [phila]
ack me
05:27:21 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about
05:28:16 [eparsons]
phila my link proposes approach from data on the web group to do this
05:28:48 [eparsons]
phila e.g. how to mint URIs
05:32:45 [eparsons]
jtandy "Same as" linking or ID issue but should be recorded
05:34:30 [eparsons]
jtandy "assertions" should be recorded related to provenance
05:36:25 [phila]
-> The 'profile' Link Relation Type
05:36:26 [eparsons]
jtandy "how do we know what is at the end of the link"
05:37:07 [eparsons]
LarsG This is what shape should do..
05:40:23 [eparsons]
We need to deal with publishing semantic data tomorrow morning LarsG time constraint
05:41:45 [eparsons]
jtandy we do not bless who has authority
05:44:29 [phila]
-> Best Practices for Publishing Linked Data (includes info on publishing vocabularies)
05:45:05 [eparsons]
phila above url has pointers as to how to select data sources "Gut instinct"
05:45:52 [Kerry]
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05:47:55 [eparsons]
BartvanLeeuwen Mapping between semantics is application specific, publisher requirement is to make data mappable to allow this
05:50:12 [eparsons]
jtandy Spatial Identify Reference Framework from CSIRO is reference for asseration bassed linking
05:50:27 [eparsons]
05:52:37 [phila]
The research paper on using PROV to distinguishg between world views is at
05:52:44 [phila]
Capturing domain knowledge from multiple sources: the rare bone disorders use case
05:54:47 [eparsons]
jtandy publishing link to authoritative data that are related is needed
05:56:05 [eparsons]
jtandy representations may change but thing does not e.g admin boundaries and catchment definitions (actually ID subject)
06:00:02 [eparsons]
jtandy relationships can be geographical, topological or social need to do all
06:01:04 [eparsons]
kerry should relationship vocabs be part of BP or created elsewhere
06:01:22 [timbl]
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06:02:57 [eparsons]
jtandy : BP should signpost useful sources of links, e.g Geonames
06:03:55 [eparsons]
Kerry: Mailing list contains more details "stamp collecting"
06:04:21 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
06:04:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
06:04:45 [BartvanLeeuwen]
06:05:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ack me
06:05:09 [Zakim]
BartvanLeeuwen, you wanted to discuss dinner after this topic
06:10:24 [eparsons]
jtandy : to make data work on the web links between features need to be discoverable - linksets ?
06:11:42 [eparsons]
jtandy : item level links difficult for data publisher, 3rd party mechanism should be possible
06:11:58 [eparsons]
kerry : backlinks also ?
06:13:22 [eparsons]
jtandy : UK gov publishes gazetteer, other air quality , tourism etc... back link is link back to gazetteer
06:14:02 [eparsons]
phila : linksets a separate doc ?
06:14:42 [eparsons]
jtandy : Missing true, a note around link sets might be needed
06:15:18 [eparsons]
phila : Could be joint doc with data on the web
06:17:38 [eparsons]
larsg: Why should I do this people might ask if no one can consume..
06:18:51 [eparsons]
phila : linksets are used in life sciences e.g. openphacts
06:21:25 [phila]
06:23:33 [eparsons]
phila : We need to prove BP is used, eg evidence of use by at least one org
06:25:04 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
06:25:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
06:49:19 [BartvanLeeuwen]
scribeNick: BartvanLeeuwen
06:49:50 [Kerry]
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06:49:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: link publication format
06:50:28 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: is this about linking the representation level
06:50:50 [jtandy]
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06:50:59 [Kerry]
06:51:10 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: it is about how write the links down, the choice of encoding
06:51:58 [ahaller2]
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06:52:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: how to encode links and how to use a api that support coneg
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06:54:12 [phila]
scribe: BartvanLeeuwen
06:54:17 [phila]
scribeNick: BartvanLeeuwen
06:57:04 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: the URL for accesing a data service endpoint is not the same as the dataset URI
07:03:52 [ahaller2]
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07:10:43 [phila]
jtandy: Tries to summarise previous discussion. I see 3 options for describing subsets...
07:10:52 [phila]
eparsons: It's mostly about coverages, not feature sets
07:11:10 [phila]
eparsons: Identifying coverages and subsets of coverages
07:11:23 [phila]
.. So I think we can do this in the API section
07:12:02 [phila]
ahaller2: SPIN solves this problem and a lot of people use SPIN
07:12:17 [phila]
ahaller2: SPIN is a vocab for storing SPARQL queries
07:13:28 [phila]
jtandy: Rather than using SPIN per se, we can use a provenance chain to say what query you used
07:13:31 [phila]
scribe: phila
07:13:36 [phila]
scribeNick: phila
07:13:59 [phila]
ben: Then the identifier would be the ID of the Prov entity
07:14:25 [phila]
Time Out on that discussion
07:14:45 [phila]
Topic: Things we want to agree/disagree on
07:15:17 [phila]
jtandy: We find the e-mail discussions tend to offer RDF-centric solutions, but is that because of the self-selected group?
07:15:35 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: In NL we have the Linked Data Platfom
07:15:56 [phila]
... Someone came in and starting showing his use of JSON-LD claiming it wasn't RDF
07:17:06 [phila]
eparsons: As long as people are providing some context etc. we shouldn't need to force people to use RDF
07:18:12 [phila]
jtandy: We recognise that people will want to publish GML
07:18:33 [phila]
eparsons: Well yes but we want people to think about how to make it linkable
07:19:04 [phila]
... We need to offer advice on how to do that with technologies and principles that your data format must support.
07:19:17 [phila]
eparsons: It's about making your data more accessible and linkable.
07:19:36 [phila]
Kerry: which means we want to include stuff that may not yet exist?
07:20:01 [phila]
eparsons: If we end up suggesting that people use things that don't exist, that's not good.
07:20:24 [phila]
... If you want to continue to use GML then OK but you need to do XYZ
07:21:04 [phila]
LarsG: Does that mean that you have to do things multiple times to met all the Best practices?
07:22:08 [phila]
jtandy: Maybe we need to have a matrix showing all the BPs as column headings, formats as rows, showing which BPs can be applied using that format.
07:22:15 [ahaller2]
+1 to jtandy's proposal for a matrix
07:22:27 [Sangchul]
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07:22:55 [phila]
Kerry: We need to be careful not to suggest we're being complete.
07:23:12 [phila]
eparsons: We should shy away from saying that a tech is really good if we think it is.
07:23:33 [phila]
jtandy: That matrix might help people make a choice of format.
07:24:16 [phila]
present+ DDahl
07:24:46 [phila]
DDahl: introduces herself and EMMA
07:25:04 [phila]
... EMMA 2.0 includes a location element
07:25:08 [kerry]
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07:25:42 [phila]
... so devices can location or time stamp data
07:26:06 [phila]
... the attributes we includes are the ones you can get out of the geolocation API
07:26:42 [phila]
... It might be interesting to think about what attributes we might add to our location element
07:27:21 [phila]
... There are 2 attributes that we added to the location element that aren't in the Geolocation API. Address and description
07:27:42 [phila]
... It occurred to me that things like whether the interaction was within a car
07:28:11 [phila]
... Extra semantic info is totall unstructured so I came to see if there are ideas here.
07:29:15 [phila]
eparsons: That sounds like potential use cases. We talked this morning about encoding relationships, including social ones that go beyond the usual 8 logical ones.
07:29:46 [phila]
jtandy: Being able to make explicit statements is important to our use cases.
07:30:02 [phila]
... If two polygons overlap, are they the same thing?
07:30:35 [phila]
... Our vocabularies need to be rich covering geographical, topological temporal and social.
07:31:20 [eparsons]
FYI URL for webex in 30 minutes will be
07:33:12 [phila]
jtandy: You might want to say that an incident took place after the journey started and before it ended.
07:34:32 [jtandy]
(and a journey is a topological construct with a beginning and end ... we might want to say that an event happened at some point on the 'edge' between the two well-defined nodes)
07:34:46 [phila]
DDahl: It seems that the basic "I am here# message, but we don't have a way of capturing more social info like "I'm on my way to wor."
07:34:59 [phila]
07:35:14 [jtandy]
(we might not know exactly where on the 'edge' that the event happened - just somewhere during a journey)
07:35:52 [phila]
DDahl: I was also thinking that a concept like 'near' it depends whether you're driving or walking, what near means.
07:35:57 [timbl]
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07:37:39 [phila]
jtandy: We think we'll have to specify which vocabulary to use to describe a location.
07:39:06 [phila]
phila has changed the topic to: Dial in: US Toll Number: +1-617-324-0000 Access code:646 139 528 Ask Phila if you need the password
07:41:31 [phila]
Topic: assignment of identifiers to ‘real-world things’ & information resources
07:41:51 [phila]
jtandy: It's clear that people are using twitter has tags as location IDs
07:42:21 [phila]
eparsons: There's no management of that, which is what I think it's about. It was developed from the bottom up.
07:42:49 [phila]
eparsons: The key thing is that people can produce URIs on the fly
07:43:06 [phila]
jtandy: In order for URIs to be useful, people need to be comfortable in creating them themselves
07:43:32 [phila]
eparsons: (with guidance from us). There are good and bad ways of minting URIs
07:43:42 [phila]
eparsons: There is no ICANN for place names
07:44:12 [phila]
jtandy: if you've done a modicum of due diligence and not found one, OK, create your own.
07:45:07 [phila]
Ben: Are those URIs are going to be dereferenceable?
07:45:21 [phila]
jtandy: That is best practice
07:45:30 [phila]
... What it resolves to is a bit of an open ended question
07:45:42 [phila]
eparsons: That's partially answered by the discoverability aspects.
07:46:10 [phila]
eparsons: Maybe we need something that says there should be something crawlable
07:47:26 [phila]
eparsons: If we can point to a HTML page that is well structured and describes a thing that's always going to score more highly than something unusable.
07:48:31 [phila]
eparsons: You could have a URI for every post code, or you could have a URI that returned info about that post code, place associated with it etc - that's going to score more highly.
07:49:28 [phila]
jtandy: If you have a dataset and you want to make each item dereferenceable, you're not going to create 1600 URls probably
07:49:44 [phila]
eparsons: So you need an API that returns a page
07:50:29 [phila]
eparsons: gave an example of a Canadian city that tried a system that created a page for an area if you asked for it, within a short time. But what worked better was a page generated automatically on the fly
07:50:36 [phila]
... That's what was crawled and used.#
07:51:07 [ahaller2]
07:51:53 [phila]
eparsons: URIs good, URLs better
07:54:14 [phila]
Discussion of versioning, URI for latest version and immutable snapshots
07:54:21 [phila]
... Covered in DWBP
07:54:57 [ahaller2]
+1 to covered in DWBP
07:55:01 [ahaller2]
i can scribe
07:55:32 [phila]
07:55:46 [phila]
07:56:35 [eparsons]
07:58:05 [phila]
Linda: Content is growing in the BP Doc at so there's more than the IRC log being captured
08:00:47 [eparsons]
One again webex is at
08:00:49 [ahaller2]
scribe ahaller2
08:01:09 [eparsons]
ask here for password
08:01:15 [kerry]
webex is open for business!
08:01:46 [ahaller2]
scribe: ahaller2
08:02:45 [ahaller2]
08:02:59 [ahaller2]
scribenick: ahaller2
08:03:00 [jtandy]
scribenick: ahaller2
08:03:42 [ahaller2]
jtandy: next issue, non-unique naming
08:03:46 [kerry]
webex is at
08:04:15 [ahaller2]
... sameAs is a very strong assertion, we need a lot more weaker assertions
08:05:35 [ahaller2]
LarsG: has a sameAs that can be used between documents and entities, it is much weaker than the OWL sameAs
08:07:24 [ahaller2]
kerry: we don't want the OWL one
08:08:05 [ahaller2]
... the logical theory in OWL does not say that two things are the same
08:08:56 [ahaller2]
eparsons: I like sameAs, because it talks about webpages only
08:10:29 [ahaller2]
jtandy: document that describes our lighthouse entity example could use the sameAs
08:12:33 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: we need to be careful not to ignore the best practise in Linked Data that uses OWL sameAs to assert the equivalence, even though it is bastadrised
08:13:14 [phila]
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08:14:41 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: sameAs is a bit confusing, why not using a different name if we come up with a similar property in this group, and then say it is equivalent to the one
08:16:02 [ahaller2]
jtandy:, sameAs is really to express, i am a document (description) about a thing
08:16:28 [ahaller2]
eparsons: the audience of is web developers, content creators who create web pages
08:20:29 [ahaller2]
jtandy: OWL sameAs is not enough, we need to say that there are many mechanisms to reconcile identifiers
08:21:32 [ahaller2]
... spatial correlation is useful to determine equivalence, but not always
08:22:03 [ahaller2]
... if you publish sameAs relations, say who you are
08:24:43 [ahaller2]
LarsG: broader and narrower within a dataset imply broaderTransitive, narrowerTransitive, Mapping relations broaderMatch, narrowerMatch do not have these assertions
08:25:27 [ahaller2]
eparsons: are there best practises
08:26:11 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: skos mapping relations are used in the wild
08:26:30 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we don't want to make up stuff
08:27:05 [ahaller2]
... if we feel the lack of a best practise is impeding, then we can come up with a solution
08:27:11 [ahaller2]
... emerging best practise
08:27:28 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we need to be careful, things we just make up, are not best practises
08:28:32 [ahaller2]
kerry: we need a more social notion, samePlaceAs
08:29:09 [ahaller2]
eparsons: there is a whole new science area, placial science
08:31:15 [ahaller2]
jtandy: there are two places that are talked about two communities that are actually the same place
08:31:22 [ahaller2]
eparsons: same spatial context
08:31:32 [ahaller2]
s/about two/about in two
08:32:39 [ahaller2]
eparsons: this is a gap, so we don't have evidence, we may propose recommendations for this
08:34:49 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we, as a community of experts recommend a solution in this case, but it is not a best practise
08:36:55 [ahaller2]
LarsG: SKOS is not a best practise, because skos:Concept is not the real thing
08:38:48 [ahaller2]
jtandy: recommended way is the terminology for non-best practises that we agreed upon
08:40:05 [ahaller2]
jtandy: next theme: relating toponyms
08:40:16 [ahaller2]
eparsons: toponym is the name for a place
08:40:28 [ahaller2]
jtandy: thematic identifiers are not enough
08:40:55 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we need to deal with the fact that two spatial things have two different names
08:41:06 [ahaller2]
... e.g. Israel, Palestine
08:41:55 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: can we solve this we PROV?
08:42:10 [rachel]
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08:43:48 [ahaller2]
eparsons: maybe this issue also gets resolved with the weaker relationships
08:44:09 [ahaller2]
jtandy: you can provide an rdf:label
08:45:14 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: but what if they have two different geospatial boundaries, then we can't use rdf:label
08:45:51 [ahaller2]
jtandy: you may need to do a further reconciliation after the label
08:47:38 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we need to have a best practise how you can tell us what the name for this geospatial thing is
08:48:29 [phila]
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08:49:51 [ahaller2]
jtandy: next theme: what to do with resources such as the Renaissance in Italy?
08:50:05 [ahaller2]
eparsons: this is difficult in so many aspects
08:51:26 [ahaller2]
jtandy: geographical locations in the past that do not correlate exactly to the modern day geospatial boundaries
08:52:30 [ahaller2]
jtandy: you would mint a URI for Renaissance Italy and you may have a geometry associate with it
08:52:50 [ahaller2]
... someone else may publish something else about the Renaissance
08:53:04 [ahaller2]
... and then they may agree about a reconciliation
08:53:51 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we have no mandate to solve the reconciliation problem
08:54:18 [ahaller2]
LarsG: sameTimeAs and samePlaceAs would be helpful here
08:54:30 [ahaller2]
kerry: these two may be very strongly linked
08:55:56 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: so if it is sameTimeAs and samePlaceAs it will be OWL sameAs
08:57:15 [ahaller2]
ddahl: what about the American West, it is a known fuzzyness
08:58:08 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: do we need a class for a fuzzy thing and fuzzy time
08:58:17 [ahaller2]
jtandy: it is just a SpatialThing
08:58:38 [ahaller2]
kerry: do we need to distinguish the abstract thing from the concrete thing
08:59:33 [ahaller2]
eparsons: boston university has done an experiment asking people to draw boundaries around boston and there was no agreement, as expected, but there could be a core subset
08:59:58 [ahaller2]
jtandy: SpatialThing has a spatial extend, but not necessarily a specific one
09:00:19 [ahaller2]
jtandy: there is already a class that we can use, a SpatialThing
09:00:37 [ahaller2]
LarsG: a Fuzzy Spatial Thing would be a subclass for a SpatialThing
09:01:00 [ahaller2]
... we need to have a means to transport the fuzziness
09:01:39 [ahaller2]
jtandy: rather than the class being special, we define a property that defines the fuzziness of the geospatial
09:02:48 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: but what if I want to say that my instance is fuzzy, but I don't want to define the geospatial boundaries
09:03:37 [kerry]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kerry
09:03:44 [eparsons]
=== Meeting Ends ====
09:04:08 [ahaller2]
jtandy: create issue, do we need a sub type that defines a thing with a fuzzy boundary
09:05:02 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:05:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
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23:15:15 [phila]
RRSAgent, bye
23:15:15 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items