23:09:27 RRSAgent has joined #css 23:09:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/25-css-irc 23:17:02 projector_ has joined #css 23:22:37 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 23:23:25 kurosawa has joined #css 23:26:27 glazou has joined #css 23:35:11 Bert1 has joined #css 23:37:52 kurosawa_ has joined #css 23:38:27 liam has joined #css 23:38:31 kurosawa_ has joined #css 23:41:52 hyojin has joined #css 23:42:07 dwim1 has joined #css 23:43:01 xidorn has joined #css 23:47:59 hwlee has joined #css 23:48:11 yinagaki has joined #css 23:49:32 glazou has joined #css 23:49:58 Shinya has joined #css 23:51:30 projection has joined #css 23:52:27 andrey has joined #css 23:52:43 skk has joined #css 23:53:50 Shigemi has joined #css 23:54:48 shepazu has joined #css 23:55:47 baba has joined #css 23:55:55 sam__ has joined #css 23:56:00 nulltask has joined #css 23:56:30 hitsujiwool has joined #css 23:57:14 MaRakow has joined #CSS 23:58:35 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 23:58:58 hiro__ has joined #css 00:01:15 projection has joined #css 00:01:54 Okabe has joined #css 00:03:10 is there a WebEx also of the meeting 00:03:41 zcorpan has joined #css 00:03:47 Zakim, remind us to go home at 6am 00:03:47 I don't understand 'remind us to go home at 6am', Rossen 00:03:48 jchiba has joined #css 00:03:57 Zakim, remind me to go home at 6am 00:03:57 I don't understand 'remind me to go home at 6am', Rossen 00:04:05 dino has joined #css 00:04:18 Zakim, remind me at 6am to go home 00:04:18 You can go home any time you like, Rossen 00:04:28 dbaron has joined #css 00:04:29 Zakim, lol 00:04:29 I don't understand 'lol', Rossen 00:04:34 dyamada has joined #css 00:05:55 myles has joined #css 00:06:06 jdaggett has joined #css 00:06:49 myles has joined #css 00:07:49 Florian has joined #css 00:08:30 INtros: 00:08:34 Peter Linss 00:08:38 Rossen 00:08:40 murakami has joined #css 00:08:43 Matt Rakow 00:08:50 John Daggett 00:08:53 Miles Maxfield 00:08:56 Dean Jackson 00:08:57 Tomu 00:08:59 Simon Sapin 00:09:04 Shane STephens 00:09:05 TAb Atkins 00:09:08 Daniel Glazman 00:09:10 Simon Pieters 00:09:14 Johannes Wilm 00:09:20 Liam Quin 00:09:22 Bert Bos 00:09:25 Brian Birtles 00:09:26 plh has joined #css 00:09:28 anssik has joined #css 00:09:28 Dave Cramer 00:09:33 kurosawa has joined #css 00:09:34 Shinyu Murakami 00:09:37 Alan Stearns 00:09:38 Andra 00:09:39 Florian 00:10:02 Xidorn Quan 00:10:06 Koji Ishi 00:11:10 s/Andra/Andrey/ 00:11:20 s/Miles/Myles 00:11:38 tfuji has joined #css 00:11:38 brady_duga has joined #css 00:11:42 s/STephens/Stephens 00:11:44 s/Tomu/Dongwoo/ 00:11:47 Hiroshi Sakakibara 00:12:06 Takao Baba from BPS. 00:12:27 OK has joined #css 00:13:50 Junichi Chiba from BPS 00:14:14 Topic: Agenda 00:14:24 [not scribing the agenda discussion] 00:15:58 Topic: CSSOM 00:16:10 glazou: I think the CSSOM is a basis for a lot of the tuff in the WG. 00:16:15 glazou: We're adding OM to more and more modules. 00:16:22 glazou: I think it's the foundation of too much to leave unattended. 00:16:33 glazou: In particular, we need ot have it improved and possibly reimplemented for Houdini 00:16:40 glazou: I'd like us to b emore active on that front. 00:16:41 johanneswilm has joined #css 00:16:48 glazou: Fortunately I have some free time now to do so. ^_^ 00:17:00 Bobby has joined #css 00:17:04 glazou: I think we should set a deadline for that spec, and be firm on the fact that, at that day in the future, we should have a PR for the basic OM for CSS. 00:17:19 glazou: The work on OM started long ago, and it's now a too-old effort in this WG, but we rely on it. 00:17:35 dino: What do you mean by "the OM"? We talked about typed access and othe rmodern bits. What exactly? 00:17:50 glazou: For me, the OM is the revamp of what we had in the DOM 2 Style spec. 00:18:03 glazou: Cleaner, better, simpler, with no extensions. The foundation should be cleaner. 00:18:15 glazou: Some interfaces not impl'd need to be removed. 00:18:29 glazou: Others are not interoperable, and having a Rec would help stabilizing things. 00:18:35 glazou: With a good foundation, we can improve the OM. 00:18:43 glazou: Without that we're designing new APIs without a foundation. 00:18:51 glazou: It's going to be a problem sooner or later. 00:19:04 dino: So you're suggesting codifying what exists...? 00:19:14 glazou: Taking what Simon has been doing, push that document to Rec asap. 00:19:27 i/glazou: Others/fantasai: The CSS2.1 of the CSSOM/ 00:19:44 Florian: Re deadline, I think it's helpful to avoi dpushing it forever, but it's only meaningful if impls are pushing. It needs to be both. 00:19:56 glazou: Agree. But without spec work, nothing will happen. 00:20:12 Florian^: you need an editor driving, and also the WG responding. You have to have both, ont only one 00:20:14 glazou: We're at crossroads, and this foundation document is too old, but we really need it. 00:20:30 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 00:20:32 glazou: What we have to show is the CSS2.0 OM, which isn't interoperably impld, and sometimes not at all. 00:20:33 shigeya has joined #css 00:20:47 zcorpan: Also necessary is a test suite, and people working on fixing bugs in browsers. 00:21:12 glazou: So vendors, are you willing to help? Contribute tests, fixing holes, etc? 00:21:15 Florian has joined #css 00:21:28 dino: We'd love to help impl wise. Spec-wise, not so much. 00:21:33 fantasai_: Can you help with testing? 00:21:44 I know Servo has interest in tests for this. 00:22:04 But they don't have that much in way of resources. 00:22:16 Florian: I think if the champions of each topic bring it to discussion, I think there's a good understanding that it needs to move forward. 00:22:36 shane: Is it possible, at this stage, for the impls to become interoperable? 00:22:41 shane: Ther'es some deep diffs. 00:22:42 dino: yes, testing is important to us and we'd contribute to a test suite. 00:22:59 Florian: I think trying to identify where we can join, and where we ccan't, is valuable. 00:23:14 sena has joined #css 00:23:17 SimonSapin: Servo is starting to impl as well, and we can bring up issues we find and write tests. 00:23:23 fantasai_: What's scope? New stuff? 00:23:36 zcorpan: Some new stuff. Some of it's impl'd, like CSS.escape(). 00:23:47 zcorpan: But in general it's just old stuff. 00:23:53 zcorpan: If anythign needs to be cut, it's fine. 00:24:02 Isn't one of the really important pieces having a new values OM, which isn't spec'd yet? 00:24:08 fantasai_: It might be worth going thru the spec and seeing what of the old stuff isn't impl'd and needs to be dropped. 00:24:31 zcorpan: One thing is alternate style sheets. In Gecko, but I don't think anywhere else. Maybe MS? 00:24:38 murakami_ has joined #css 00:25:01 Sangchul_ has joined #css 00:25:06 fantasai_: We can push things that aren't impld or not interop into a level 2 diff spec, just to keep their text around. Then level 1 can just be things with at least 2 impls. If not 2 impls, the web probably doesn't depend on it. 00:25:28 glazou: The last WD is from 2013. I"d like to publish a new one asap, request feedback from community, vendors, etc, and start writing tests. 00:25:35 Rossen: How much has changed since 2013? 00:25:38 zcorpan: Not much. 00:26:02 Rossen: From Daniel's pov, your proposal is to make a spec we can publish asap with the interop core of the OM. 00:26:12 Rossen: Should be relatively straightforward with enough test coverage. 00:26:26 Rossen: Simon, between you and Glenn, do you need any help with editting? 00:26:51 zcorpan: Glenn hasn't done much since I started editting. OM hasn't been a priority for me the last 2 years, but I can def get back to it, particularly if there's impl interest in fixing bugs. 00:27:07 Rossen: I think impls like to fix bugs as long as they're not major architectural redesigns. 00:27:23 zcorpan: The problem with bugs is that there's always a risk of breaking websites. 00:27:42 zcorpan: And there's little benefit in fixing from browser pov, because the web already works. 00:28:08 Florian: From pov of Servo, etc, really valuable. Can have official behavior, with optional compat things specced, and Servo can test to see what's necessary. 00:28:19 s/things/exceptions/ 00:28:21 glazou: Documentation on the core OM almost doesn't exist. Basically nothings. 00:28:48 Florian: How can we engage with jQuery/etc? They probably know the diffs. 00:28:56 glazou: jQuery foundation is in the WG. 00:29:08 Florian: They probably already have tests. Maybe in the wrong shape, but. 00:29:20 shane: Going back a moment, Blink is willing to contribute tests to help. 00:29:38 fantasai_: So Simon is going to try and trim the spec, repub, request review, get jQuery to send up incompat reports. 00:30:06 fantasai_: And go through the spec every month with "the WG reviews this section". It's a big spec, but with "this month is MQ OM", etc it's easier. 00:30:34 TabAtkins: Like our 2.1 process. 00:30:38 YusukeNakaya has joined #css 00:30:52 fantasai_: 2.1 was a bit scattershot. We had tons of issues; didn't have to go looking for them. 00:31:04 karl has joined #css 00:31:26 Rossen: So for timeline, Simon, do you think you have time to work on this? 00:31:30 There's some CSSOM tests in the presto-testo dump. I don't know how useful/relevant they are. 00:31:39 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 00:31:39 zcorpan: Yeah, certainly. Target 1 year from now to have something close to ready... 00:31:54 fantasai_: It's 11 or 12 major sections, so one a month... 00:32:05 Sangchul has joined #css 00:32:08 Rossen: Let's start by IDing the core of the spec. 00:32:19 glazou: The end of our current hcarter is June 2016. 00:32:29 glazou: Would be good to have an idea of the status of this spec by that time. 00:32:39 Rossen: Is there part of the spec we can Rec today? 00:32:41 sam2 has joined #css 00:32:48 fantasai_: Main issue is not spec, but if we have test suite. 00:33:14 zcorpan: I'm not conifendent there's such a section - not enough test coverage for any one section. 00:33:20 zcorpan: But some parts are more interop than others. 00:33:38 fantasai_: Also if we're going thru the spec from the WG, we also need QA people from the browsers converting or writing tests. 00:33:44 AH_Miller_ has joined #CSS 00:33:46 fantasai_: So not just people in this group, people from testing too. 00:34:21 Rossen: So I guess Simon needs to refocus, and start bringing up issues that need discussion. 00:34:32 Rossen: If we're targetting end of next year, or end of charter... 00:34:39 Rossen: We'll see how it goes from there. 00:35:01 shane: Does Simon want to guide browsers in what to test, or should we be bringing up areas ourselves? 00:35:13 Rossen: Either is fine. If we ID part of the spec that's most interop, we can start from there. 00:35:18 fantasai_: We can do both. 00:35:32 Rossen: I agree that we've been neglecting this for some time. 00:35:50 glazou: I can help. 00:35:56 zcorpan: I don't mind more editors. 00:36:17 Florian: How do we coordinate between this and new Houdini stuff? 00:36:37 Florian: New things that live alongside can stay, but maybe replacements mean we can just drop the old stuff? 00:36:46 fantasai_: This will be the spec of things we can't drop. 00:37:06 shane: I don't think there is much replacement. The big thing in Houdini is the typed OM, for perf reasons. It doesn't drop the other OM. 00:37:14 Rossen: Daniel, do you want to be co-editor? 00:37:25 glazou: Not yet. Need to ramp up. Perhaps later. 00:37:50 fantasai_: So Action Items: 1. Simon goes thru the spec, maybe with help, and trim things we can drop. Then publish WD. 00:37:59 fantasai_: 2. WG reviews and submits tests. 00:38:07 fantasai_: 3. Chairs drive a schedule where we do monthly section reviews. 00:38:15 andrey_ has joined #css 00:38:24 Rossen: I'll contact Glenn and see what his commitment is. 00:38:45 koji: When you say OM, does that include CSSOM View? 00:38:47 zcorpan: No. 00:38:52 glazou: It's a separate topic. 00:40:13 Topic: GCPM bookmarks 00:40:28 Florian: Don't know if people remember GCPM bookmarks 00:40:39 Florian: Sets of 3 props that let you do PDF-style bookmarks. 00:41:01 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-gcpm/#bookmarks 00:41:04 johanneswilm has joined #css 00:41:18 Florian: Bookmark-label, defaults to content. Bookmark-state, which is open or closed. And bookmark-level. 00:41:30 Florian: First, it's slightly weird in CSS. It doesn't really affect the doc's style. 00:41:43 Florian: But then there are many ways to render the doc; you can render to PDF, and have a bookmark pane. 00:42:07 Florian: This relies on the cascade/etc, so it's a slightly weird fit. Would be better with cascading attribute sheets, but we don't. 00:42:17 Florian: [missed] 00:42:41 Florian: But I was wondering about bookmark-level. Can we add an "auto" level, to work with the HTML algo, rather than setting up selectors manually? 00:42:41 dsinger has joined #css 00:43:04 Florian: If you, for example, use nesting+h1, it's a little difficult. The HTML outline algo defines the heading level there. 00:43:17 Florian: But there's nothing there right now. It's just none or manual. 00:43:20 s/[missed]/listing places where this is implemented or intent to implement/ 00:43:24 fantasai_: Can we do this through the UA stylesheet? 00:43:35 dsinger has left #css 00:43:54 Florian: Maybe. If you use h1-6 it's easy. But with h1+nesting, it's a little more complex. With nesting+mixtures of heading numbers, much harder. 00:43:58 kokabe has joined #css 00:44:13 Florian: HTML outline algo defines how all that works, combining nesting and numbering. Very diff or impossible to do through selectors. 00:44:37 Florian: [example of combining nesting and numbering] 00:45:06 zcorpan: The outline algo in HTML is not impl'd. The a11y techs that are supposed to benefit from it don't use it, they just expose h1-6 etc. 00:45:13 fantasai^: I think you can do this with selectors, it'll just be a lot of selectors 00:45:31 zcorpan: It seems premature to create selectors for it. 00:45:38 TabAtkins: This isn't for Selectors, it's just about bookmark-level. 00:45:56 Florian: We could make a bunch of selectors in the UA stylesheet, maybe, but it's troublesome. 00:46:06 Florian: And it's HTML-specific. I'd prefer one that depends on the doc language. 00:47:02 liam: [shit, missed this due to transient internet failure] 00:47:15 liam: I support the idea that there's a use-case for explicitly marking things for PDF bookmarks. 00:47:32 Florian: Not suggesting getting rid of explicit levels. Definitely reasons to set manually. 00:47:48 Florian: But seems to be a large set of docs that you shouldn't need to do this for - you can just get it from the structure. 00:48:01 liam^: When we added this to XSL:FO, we had to allow for e.g. table sand figures to appear in different levels of the ToC, some tables appearing others not, etc. 00:48:03 dwim1 has left #css 00:48:04 Florian: Just wanting to *add* an "auto" value. 00:48:22 dauwhe: I'd be happier with examples of docs where you can't achieve the desired effect with the existing property. 00:48:39 jeff_ has joined #css 00:48:54 Florian: I think for any individual doc you can do it manually. But there's a lot of information that's present. 00:49:03 dauwhe: I'd like to see if we can do it via selectors 00:49:07 TabAtkins: It's very messy. 00:49:54 fantasai_: I like the UA stylesheet. WE can tweak it later. A UA can impl it specially if they want to. And this is the easiest way to impl - just copypaste. 00:50:09 fantasai_: And authors can easily tweak. 00:50:31 jchiba_ has joined #css 00:50:33 sena_ has joined #css 00:50:54 Florian: I was wondering if we would need to use cascading properties to do additive math as we go down the tree. 00:51:05 Shinya_ has joined #css 00:51:16 fantasai_: I suggest just trying to do it, first. 00:51:25 dauwhe: I'm happier with a UA stylesheet first, too. 00:51:34 s/I like the UA/I prefer the UA/ 00:51:46 s/tweak it later/tweak it later as we find problems much more easily/ 00:51:53 dauwhe: And easier to debug, if a customer doesn't understand why something has a weird level. I could just see the rule applying it. 00:51:59 Rossen: Agree. If we can do without magic, good. 00:52:00 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#sections-and-headings is HTML's UA stylesheet for sections and headings 00:52:07 s/specially/with non-CSS code (e.g. C++)/ 00:52:07 Florian: Okay, I can try. 00:52:31 dauwhe: Also, given how picky people are, I'm not sure an "auto" keyword can actually satisfy enough people. 00:53:04 Florian_ has joined #css 00:53:15 ACTION Florian to try and implement some approximation of the outline algorithm using Selectors, for bookmark-level. 00:53:18 Created ACTION-726 - Try and implement some approximation of the outline algorithm using selectors, for bookmark-level. [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-11-02]. 00:53:29 dauwhe: This material officially leaves in Generated Content, not in GCPM. 00:53:34 Rossen: I'll remove it from GCPM. 00:53:42 s/I'll/Then let's/ 00:53:44 s/I'll/Go ahead and/ 00:53:45 Mitsumasa has joined #css 00:54:03 dyamada has joined #css 00:54:03 johanneswilm: Are people other than the publishing programs even thinking of bookmarks? 00:54:04 -> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-content-3/#css-bookmarks Bookmarks (for PDF) 00:54:30 dwim1 has joined #css 00:54:38 Topic: CSS style attr 00:54:55 http://www.w3.org/mid/737F97AF-69E2-41DD-A047-E71012B81B71@rivoal.net 00:54:57 Florian_: There's a bug in the spec's markup, and confuses Bikeshed. 00:55:07 plh has joined #css 00:55:09 Florian_: There was an action, but nothing happened. 00:55:13 dauwhe, https://drafts.csswg.org/ lists "Generated Content" which links to GCPM. Is there another Generated content? 00:55:17 fantasai_: If it's just a markup fix, Bert can do it inline. 00:55:42 Bert1: As long as it's just a markup fix, yeah. 00:56:11 Florian_: Yeah, "style attribue" was just 'd twice. I removed the tag from one. 00:56:18 Topic: Inline character grid. 00:56:25 Florian_: This was brought up last night. 00:56:35 Florian_: Line Grid has a strict arrangement of lines. 00:56:48 Florian_: In CJK, they do similarly with characters in the inline dimension. 00:56:52 liam has joined #css 00:57:07 Florian_: This is probably not something to tackle right now (tho I"d be happy to think about it), but there's some small steps we can take now. 00:57:25 hitsujiwool has joined #css 00:57:54 Florian_: If the line length is a multiple of the CJK character width, then justifying works. Fine for pure CJK, and works right when mixing in Latin. 00:58:16 Florian_: So I suggest being able to define some max-width thing that goes up as a step function of the CJK size. 00:58:23 dino has joined #css 00:58:37 fantasai_: Ther'es two places you might need to put space - padding or margin. 00:58:53 fantasai_: Agree that it should be solved, but don't have a concrete proposal that would address the concern. 00:59:07 Florian_: I have two questions, and maybe answers. 00:59:47 Florian_: Does the extra space go to padding or margin? 00:59:51 TabAtkins: Can't box-sizing do this? 01:00:01 fantasai_: Don't think so - you're always sizing the content box. 01:00:31 fantasai_: If you have a max-width of 90px, and available space 100px, the 10px will go outside (margin). But we might want it to be inside (padding). 01:00:49 fantasai_: And if there's space, how to align content? We have the alignment properties to handle that. 01:01:10 fantasai_: So as we limit the length of the line, are we leaving the padding in place, or are we pulling the border-box in with us? 01:01:17 fantasai_: I think just working with max-width works. 01:01:22 fantasai_: Just do it as a step increment. 01:01:45 fantasai_: Imagine you're in a box, and want the bgcolor to fill the box. Padding to give you some space. 01:01:55 fantasai_: If you pull in the border-edge to satisfy a max-width, you have a gap you weren't expecting. 01:02:15 Florian: So look at use-cases, I guess. 01:02:36 Florian_ has joined #css 01:02:38 Florian: So does this look like a property, or as a value? 01:02:43 TabAtkins: Look at use-cases. ^_^ 01:03:20 jdaggett: I think you need to be more specific. And I have some concerns that this might be hacky, but I can't say that firmly until I see something. 01:03:21 I'd talk to some CJK CSS authors 01:03:41 Hiroshi: If we want to discuss char grid, do we need a draft spec for it? 01:03:48 Hiroshi: Is it good for this group? 01:04:00 fantasai_: The actual Character Grid, we're not tackling yet. Line Grid first. 01:04:15 fantasai_: This is a smaller issue of measurement - just making sure the context box is an integer number of chars wide. 01:04:28 fantasai_: Easier topic. 01:05:11 fantasai_: [reiterating the discussion] 01:05:28 katashin has joined #css 01:05:51 Florian_: So based on that, I think getting the CJK community to look for examples, and find where the space wants to go. 01:06:08 Florian_: If everyone wants the same thing, then easy. If different, we need a switch. 01:06:25 fantasai_: I say don't look at "documents", but at magazines and websites, and think about them as the page changes size. 01:06:39 Rossen: I'm assuming you already have test-cases. 01:06:56 MaRakow has joined #CSS 01:06:58 Hiroshi: Yes, can help gather and send to the group. 01:07:08 wilhelm_ has joined #css 01:07:20 TabAtkins: Been discussion before about min() max() functions or floor() ceiling() functions 01:07:31 TabAtkins: Rejected in past because can reverse layout constraints 01:07:41 TabAtkins: You no longer have a linear function for the size, it's piecewise linear 01:07:48 TabAtkins: much harder to handle in sizing algorithms 01:07:55 TabAtkins: dbaron can elaborate more 01:08:13 Florian_: One way to deal with that would be to limit just the line length 01:08:21 Florian_: Whether or not that addresses use cases ... 01:08:30 kurosawa has joined #css 01:08:39 fantasai_: Related issue is shrink-wrapping. 01:09:02 fantasai_: When you shrinkwrap, we follow the formula of max(min-content, min(max-content, available space)) 01:09:36 dholbert has joined #css 01:09:38 fantasai_: If you're doing line-breaking, taht can get you to a position where you have a lot of extra space in your element that doesn't need to be there, because you wrapped. (Some big items get wrapped, leave a big gap at the end of th eline.) 01:09:49 fantasai_: This happens a lot with text-wrap: balance. 01:09:55 fantasai_: [draws diagram] 01:10:15 fantasai_: Four large words in the element. max-content slightly overflows. 01:10:29 fantasai_: shrinkwrap is two-lines tall. Three items on one line, one item on next. 01:10:45 fantasai_: For "balance", you want two items on each line, and shrinkwrapped to the width of that. 01:11:03 fantasai_: What you get instead is still width of available space, with tons of empty space. 01:11:04 SimonSapin: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-content/ 01:11:29 Florian_: Does this mean the shrinkwrap formula needs to be enhanced? 01:11:40 fantasai_: It used to be, in distant past, but for perf reasons we moved to this simpler one. 01:11:55 fantasai_: But we will need some way to opt this later. 01:12:32 astearns: For example, a background behind a "balanced" box that's sized to the line length, not the full available space. 01:12:49 astearns: In the last pub of LIne Grid, I stripped it to what i think is the minimum necessary step. 01:13:10 astearns: The Line Grid and Line Snapping are ready to impl. Box snapping might still need spec work. 01:13:18 astearns: So, vendors, take a look and I think it's mostly ready. 01:13:30 FLORIAN: What di dyou remove? 01:13:41 astearns: Character gried, and some things that dealt with the issue you brought up. 01:13:55 s/gried/grid 01:14:09 dbaron_ has joined #css 01:14:13 s/di dyou/did you/ 01:14:15 Rossen: So action the group to have impls review. 01:14:17 Florian_ has joined #css 01:14:26 fantasai_: I think it needs more work, but getting impl eyes on it would be useful. 01:15:12 Rossen: Agreed. Table discussion yesterday concluded that even something simple, where lines are a multiple of some size, would be sufficient. 01:15:17 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6h3bq0wigul1tk/shrink-wrap.jpg 01:15:45 [discussion of various things that make line-height not sufficient to do simple line grid] 01:16:13
01:24:59 adenilson has joined #css 01:25:21 jihyer has joined #css 01:25:44 jihye has joined #css 01:29:29 myles has joined #css 01:43:04 dwim1 has joined #css 01:44:07 kurosawa has joined #css 01:44:35 http://typeproject.com/fonts/tpmincho 01:46:50 AH_Miller has left #css 01:47:09 dholbert has joined #css 01:47:13 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 01:52:35 sena has joined #css 01:55:35 johanneswilm has joined #css 01:56:08 kokabe has joined #css 01:56:28 ScribeNick: dbaron 01:57:06 murakami has joined #css 01:57:07 Topic: font-weight-adjust 01:57:08 Florian: There's an ongoing thread about font-weight-adjust. 01:57:11 http://www.w3.org/mid/F1E15038-FA2D-485D-B328-089293E691AC@rivoal.net 01:57:36 shigeya has joined #css 01:57:40 Florian: If you're trying to pair fonts in a document, and have font that looks the way you want, we can adjust when x-heights don't match using font-size-adjust 01:58:09 Florian: We have a similar problem with font-weight. You might want to match 2 different fonts with different ways in the document -- or especially with fallback (doesn't load; Unicode ranges). 01:58:23 Florian: If the pairing of fonts is to your taste except font weights don't match, then you have an issue 01:58:53 Florian: font weights have numeric value, but the number doesn't have a meaning against some measurement 01:59:06 Florian: want a way to say 400 weight for main font but 600 weight for fallback 01:59:10 katashin has joined #css 01:59:12 Florian: John doesn't seem to agree on problem or the solution 01:59:23 Florian: I understand disagreeing about solution; more confused about disagreeing about problem 01:59:44 John: If you go across different scripts, e.g., Latin to CJK, or Thai, Arabic, pairing typefaces is a classic design problem for type design. 02:00:18 John: IT's not a simple problem to solve. Type designers spend a lot of time thinking about how to express voice of one typeface in a different script. 02:00:20 shigemi has joined #css 02:00:23 John: IT's not just weight 02:00:32 Bobby has joined #css 02:00:42 John: What I don't agree with in the formulation of the problem is the notion that you're using a single font list for all languages 02:01:09 John: That's what people do, but it's not the right thing to be doing. Right thing: if you have content in Japanese, use appropriate Japanese typeface; content in Greek, use appropriate Greek typeface. 02:01:22 John: Ideally those are all typefaces you selected that support the specific script. 02:01:39 YusukeNakaya has joined #css 02:01:42 John: Making a design decision for each language... 02:01:51