16:28:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-irc
16:28:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:28:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:28:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:28:28 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:28:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:28:29 <trackbot> Date: 22 October 2015
16:28:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:28:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:29:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:29:55 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:30:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:31:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:32:07 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:32:18 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:32:18 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:56 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:36:51 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:40:31 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
16:40:38 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
16:40:38 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:41:10 <LJWatson> TOPIC: TPAC
16:41:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
16:41:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:42:05 <LJWatson> RS: Would like to look at 1.1, but because we're in Japan and because the Web Platform people will be there, I think we should look ahead at 2.0.
16:42:43 <LJWatson> ... The web has changed a lot since 1.1. Web Components for example.
16:42:54 <LJWatson> ... IndieUI didn't become a formal spec.
16:43:05 <LJWatson> ... Cynthia will lead this discussion as head of the CG.
16:43:14 <LJWatson> ... We have a limited number of people that can work on this.
16:43:37 <LJWatson> ... So 9.30am through 12.30am on Monday there will be an accessibility API discussion.
16:43:56 <LJWatson> ... Question is can we create a cross-rbowser API?
16:44:19 <LJWatson> s/rbowser API/browser API/
16:44:37 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:44:43 <LJWatson> ... Monday afternoon we'll meet with Web Platform.
16:44:49 <LJWatson> ... Want to hear their thoughts and concerns.
16:44:55 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:09 <LJWatson> ... Also issues like querySelector - how does that fit into the APIs?
16:46:29 <LJWatson> ... ETS will be there with experience of using Web Components in education.
16:46:49 <LJWatson> ... Tuesday ARIA 2.0 again the morning, then 1.1 and the test harness and exit criteria.
16:47:13 <LJWatson> ... The agenda is adjustable.
16:47:40 <LJWatson> ... Later a discussion with COGA from 3.30pm to 5pm.
16:48:04 <LJWatson> ... There is also a special session on Wednesday to follow-up on the acc API discussion.
16:48:19 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
16:49:06 <LJWatson> MC: in APA we want to get organised on CSS.
16:49:53 <LJWatson> ... Meetings with DPub, Web Payments and Web Platform.
16:50:17 <LJWatson> RS: We need to know how much SVG 2 to include in the abstract of the 1.1 update.
16:50:17 <clown> issue-707
16:50:17 <trackbot> issue-707 -- Update ARIA 1.1 Abstract and Introduction -- open
16:50:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/707
16:50:31 <LJWatson> ... ARIA 1.1 is going to synchronise gaps in HTML5 plus issues left over from 1.0.
16:50:59 <LJWatson> ... A common ARIA module that's synchronised with both HTML and SVG.
16:51:19 <MichaelC> -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd Draft ARIA 1.1 Exit Criteria
16:51:21 <LJWatson> MC: Drafted potential exit criteria for 1.1.
16:51:43 <LJWatson> ... Proposing we state explicitly we're only testing new or changed things since 1.0.
16:52:00 <LJWatson> ... Also that for ARIA itself we only need to find two test cases amongst tools using any of the mappings.
16:52:52 <LJWatson> ... Think we can argue this is sufficient for the ARIA spec, but the mappings will have a much higher bar.
16:53:02 <LJWatson> ... So the timelines for the mapping docs is likely to be different.
16:53:25 <LJWatson> ... Suggest we don't require that the mappings have reached PR to be used in the ARIA testing.
16:53:46 <LJWatson> RS: Don't want us to duplicate effort. W ehave HTML and SVG mappings.
16:54:00 <LJWatson> ... Where either of those specs point to our spec, we could do the test cases for that.
16:54:11 <LJWatson> ... For the things specific to the host languages we have them do the mappings.
16:54:15 <LJWatson> MC: Agree no duplication.
16:54:27 <LJWatson> ... In practice it doesn't matter who writes/runs the tests.
16:54:40 <LJWatson> ... Sounds like you want to prioritise ARIA mappings to pass 1.1?
16:54:52 <LJWatson> ... We'll need help from other WGs to test the rest, and that's reasonable.
16:55:13 <LJWatson> RS: For example in SVG the name/desc computation are dramatically different to that for HTML.
16:55:33 <LJWatson> ... Because of descendent <title> and <desc> elements for example.
16:55:47 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd
16:55:50 <LJWatson> ... Don't think ARIA WG needs to deal with those particular things.
16:55:54 <LJWatson> MC: Yes.
16:56:19 <LJWatson> RS: It'll allow us to get 1.1 done quickly.
16:56:32 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
16:57:51 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Issue 741
16:57:53 <clown> action-741
16:57:54 <trackbot> action-741 -- Gregory Rosmaita to Ensure that our old comments are resubmitted, but not do any new review. -- due 2010-12-15 -- CLOSED
16:57:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/741
16:57:58 <richardschwerdtfeger>   https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/741
16:58:16 <LJWatson> RS: We made changes for listitems.
16:58:30 <clown> +1
16:58:33 <LJWatson> ... My understanding is that we still want a name computation on links, the way we're doing it now.
16:58:37 <LJWatson> ... Anyone disagree?
16:58:46 <joanie> +1 to explicitly agree with naming links
16:59:02 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: Close issue 741 - No change to the spec.
16:59:11 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
16:59:39 <LJWatson> TOPIC: ARIA 1.1
17:00:04 <LJWatson> RS: Want to go through some outstanding actions.
17:00:11 <LJWatson> zakim, action-601?
17:00:11 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
17:00:17 <clown> action-601
17:00:17 <trackbot> action-601 -- Michael Cooper to Make property default value overrides machine readable -- due 2015-10-30 -- OPEN
17:00:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/601
17:01:00 <LJWatson> RS: Should we close or move to 2.0?
17:01:07 <LJWatson> MC: Suggest move to 2.0.
17:01:43 <LJWatson> RS: Ok, I'll create an issue.
17:02:00 <LJWatson> action-1380?
17:02:00 <trackbot> action-1380 -- Joanmarie Diggs to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:02:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:02:17 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:02:18 <LJWatson> JMD: Haven't done anything.
17:02:24 <LJWatson> RS: Can we get a rvised date?
17:03:16 <clown> action-1379
17:03:16 <trackbot> action-1379 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to TAC should cover rendered descendants from external sources: svg, iframe, etc. (Compose text and get final review form ARIA subteam) -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:03:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1379
17:04:02 <LJWatson> JMDRS: This might have to do with presentaitonal and/or hidden images?
17:04:13 <LJWatson> ... Is it critical to 1.1?
17:04:13 <mck> present+ Matt_King
17:04:44 <LJWatson> JS: I wrote an action to say that since the images would either be HTML or SVG, the guidance belongs in those respective mapping docs.
17:04:49 <LJWatson> RS: Don't have a problem with that.
17:05:06 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:05:07 <clown> s/since the images/since the elements/
17:06:00 <LJWatson> JS: One of the first example is an iframe. Does the HTML AAM already cover this?
17:06:15 <LJWatson> JN: Does it tell you where to get the acc name if one hasn't been provided?
17:06:58 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
17:07:48 <LJWatson> RS: Think this says if you put -hidden in an SVG element that has descendents, does that state apply to the child descendents?
17:07:57 <LJWatson> JS: That's an SVG question.
17:08:27 <LJWatson> RS: No, could be HTML too - an image in an iframe for example.
17:10:14 <LJWatson> LW: IAccessible 2 and MSAA seem to map <title> to acc name and <desc> to acc desc, if role="img" is applied to the parent <svg>.
17:11:03 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd
17:11:12 <LJWatson> JS: SVG name calculation.
17:11:35 <LJWatson> ... It replaces chunks of the original computation with SVG specifics.
17:11:56 <LJWatson> JN: So if my <svg> has both <title> child and title attribute, the <title> child will win out?
17:12:04 <LJWatson> RS: There is no title attrib in SVG.
17:12:29 <LJWatson> JS: Think it can have an XML title attribute.
17:12:39 <LJWatson> RS: For SVG we're covered then, right?
17:12:55 <LJWatson> JS: Guess so. The changes don't refer to iframe and img.
17:13:11 <LJWatson> JN: Isn't the source image in this issue an SVG?
17:13:27 <clown> <img src="foo.svg"> …
17:13:52 <LJWatson> FE: It's when the SVG is a child element I think.
17:14:05 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:14:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:14:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/embedded.html#ImageElement
17:14:48 <LJWatson> RS: Core attributes... no mention of title in there.
17:15:02 <LJWatson> ... It's in the XML attributes list though.
17:15:34 <LJWatson> ... So SVG is covered, leaving only HTML.
17:15:43 <LJWatson> ... We could turn that over to HTML to look at?
17:16:05 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#img-element
17:16:10 <LJWatson> JS: If you want to keep HTML elements out of the acc name, we have to turn it over to HTML AMM.
17:16:28 <LJWatson> ... What about a <img> that's source is a .svg file fall?
17:16:34 <LJWatson> RS: That would be HTML.
17:18:00 <LJWatson> LW: If you pull .svg as src to an <img> it's treated like any other img src file.
17:18:15 <LJWatson> FE: I don't think that's the case. Will check again.
17:18:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:18:45 <LJWatson> RS: Ok, think this belongs in HTML.
17:21:30 <mck> back ... was unexpectedly dropped
17:25:10 <clown> acton-1380
17:25:16 <clown> action-1380
17:25:16 <trackbot> action-1380 -- Joanmarie Diggs to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:25:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:25:48 <LJWatson> RS: so this is about the presentation role.
17:26:03 <LJWatson> ... if you put presentation on an iframe should it descend to its children?
17:28:22 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: Close action 1379, moved to bug 29230 in HTML AAM.
17:28:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29230
17:28:47 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:29:55 <LJWatson> RS: I think 1380 is talking about HTML?
17:29:58 <LJWatson> JS: Can't tell.
17:30:20 <LJWatson> JS: It talks about presentation and -hidden.
17:30:29 <LJWatson> LW: I think it is HTML, yes.
17:30:50 <LJWatson> RS: If you put aria-hidden on an image, it should go away.
17:30:55 <LJWatson> ... It's a single entity.
17:31:04 <LJWatson> JDM: Presentation doesn't mean it's a single entity.
17:31:13 <LJWatson> RS: No, but if it's <img src="bla.png"> it is.
17:31:28 <LJWatson> JS: So -hidden and role="presentation" do the same thing?
17:31:44 <LJWatson> RS: So the type of img src doesn't matter.
17:31:46 <LJWatson> LW: No.
17:31:53 <LJWatson> RS: Perhaps we need something for clarity?
17:32:07 <LJWatson> JS: Is the issue focusing on the difference between -hidden and presentation?
17:32:21 <LJWatson> RS: If you have role="presentation" on a <img> it gets one node in the DOM.
17:32:23 <LJWatson> JN: Yes.
17:32:37 <clown> <img role="presentation"  src="foo.svg">  -> no mapped in the a11y tree.
17:32:41 <LJWatson> RS: Right, so it doesn't matter whether you use -hidden or presentation. It won't be mapped.
17:32:45 <LJWatson> LW: Yes.
17:33:06 <LJWatson> RS: So we could clarifiy the fact the two do the same thing in this context.
17:33:16 <clown> <img aria-hidden="true" src="foo.svg">  -> not mpaped in the a11y tree.
17:33:46 <LJWatson> FE: If you put role="group" on the <img> it doesn't mean you'll get access to the inner SVG does it.
17:33:48 <LJWatson> JS: No.
17:35:05 <LJWatson> FE: SVG 2.0 doesn't make the distinction between embeded and stand-alone content.
17:35:20 <LJWatson> JN: But how the host language treats the source file is down to the host language - in this case HTML.
17:35:40 <LJWatson> RS: Don't think we need anyhting in ARIA for this. Anyone disagree?
17:35:51 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
17:36:05 <LJWatson> ... Unless we want Joanie to include a clarification sentence?
17:36:24 <LJWatson> FE: The weird part is that you can assign any role you want and it won't make any difference.
17:36:57 <LJWatson> RS: We could say if the host language treats the img as a single entity... etc.
17:38:24 <LJWatson> LW: I can write a clarification sentence and send it to Joanie for inclusion/wordsmithing.
17:38:45 <LJWatson> JS: Question is where is this sentence going?
17:40:45 <clown> action-1465
17:40:45 <trackbot> action-1465 -- Shane McCarron to Or shane to fix default values in 1.1 respec -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN
17:40:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1465
17:41:51 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#presentation
17:43:16 <LJWatson> JMD: This is a change to Respec?
17:43:46 <LJWatson> RS: Shall I send an email to Shane?
17:44:14 <LJWatson> JMD: I can send it.
17:45:28 <LJWatson> action-1475?
17:45:28 <trackbot> action-1475 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:45:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1475
17:45:34 <clown> action-1475?
17:45:34 <trackbot> action-1475 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:45:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1475
17:45:50 <LJWatson> RS: Think this should be ARIA 2.0?
17:46:06 <LJWatson> MC: We might want to move it to the practices.
17:46:16 <LJWatson> RS: Can we assign this to APG?
17:46:23 <LJWatson> JN: We don't want it!
17:46:30 <LJWatson> MK: No, it doesn't belong in the APG.
17:47:36 <LJWatson> MK: Seems like it should be somewhere, but it isn't an authoring practice.
17:47:43 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-in-html/#use-of-role-presentation
17:47:45 <LJWatson> RS: Related to issue 522...
17:48:19 <LJWatson> ... if aria-label and aria-labelledby are undefined, and the element is not presentational, check for the presence of an equivalent host language method for applying a label.
17:48:42 <clown> issue-522
17:48:42 <trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open
17:48:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
17:49:16 <LJWatson> JN: This is that people think role="presentation" doesn't get included in name computation.
17:49:25 <LJWatson> ... That's not what it says, but it seems to confuse a lot of people.
17:49:49 <LJWatson> JS: We could take your suggestion and put it in the acc name calculation?
17:50:01 <LJWatson> JN: We're done then?
17:50:11 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#step2D
17:50:18 <LJWatson> JS: Well, Rich left a note to say it has closed, but the issue is still open...
17:50:40 <LJWatson> JN: Think the edits have been done, but not the suggested diagrams.
17:51:11 <LJWatson> MK: If we have diagrams, they should go in the acc name/desc computation doc
17:51:24 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-in-html/#use-of-role-presentation
17:51:33 <LJWatson> JN: Did anyone look at the link to Steve's doc? Think it does a lot of what we're asking here.
17:51:40 <LJWatson> ... Has diagrams of acc trees etc.
17:51:57 <LJWatson> ... Maybe we need some extra info in here?
17:52:52 <LJWatson> RS: Don't know that we need to worry about a diagram now, so suggest we move it to ARIA 2.0 name calculation.
17:53:13 <LJWatson> RS: Michael can you create a product for the Acc Name Computation spec?
17:53:20 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:53:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:53:36 <LJWatson> MC: Should be there.
17:54:16 <mck_> have to leave for another meeting ... see you in Japan! happy travels!
17:56:58 <clown> action-1489
17:56:58 <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:56:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489
17:57:10 <LJWatson> action-1849?
17:57:10 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1849 does not exist.
17:57:49 <LJWatson> MC: Need to put a clarification in the spec.
17:57:53 <LJWatson> RS: Ok, new date?
17:58:10 <LJWatson> MC: 12th Nov, but will try to get to it before then.
17:58:27 <LJWatson> action-1490?
17:58:27 <trackbot> action-1490 -- James Nurthen to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:58:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1490
17:58:28 <clown> action-1490
17:58:28 <trackbot> action-1490 -- James Nurthen to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:58:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1490
17:59:14 <LJWatson> JN: Won't get this done before TPAC!
17:59:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:59:51 <LJWatson> present+ James Nurthen
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