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00:00:20 <masayuki> Travis: Hi!
00:00:20 <Travis> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
00:00:24 <Travis> Hi!
00:00:45 <Travis> I'm gearing up for a trip to Japan this weekend!
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00:06:46 <Travis> Hey Gary. I just texted you, but you made it!
00:07:01 <masayuki> Wow, maybe, it's rainy Sunday - Thursday of Sapporo according to weather forceast.
00:09:43 <Travis> Mmm. Not great for walking. Are umbrellas a good choice?
00:10:56 <Travis> Welcome everyone!
00:11:16 <masayuki> Not sure. 50%. Japanese weather forecaster uses "50%" when they're not sure if it will be actually rainy.
00:12:28 <garykac> I'll be at Keio Plaza Sapporo.
00:12:39 <Travis> garykac: I will be staying at Keio hotel.
00:12:52 <Travis> Travis: And I'm at the Renessance hotel.
00:13:56 <Travis> Let's have a status update!
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00:14:40 <garykac> I'm arriving in Sapporo late Saturday.
00:14:49 <garykac> Status update:
00:14:58 <garykac> I moved the bugs over to github
00:15:08 <Travis> garykac: ...from bugzilla.
00:15:13 <garykac> So we have nothing left in the old W3C bugzilla
00:15:35 <Travis> garykac: Didn't have time to clear out the easy bugs.
00:15:46 <Travis> ... I'll spend some time on Sunday looking at those.
00:15:57 <Travis> ... we can then spend face-to-face time on the difficult ones.
00:16:55 <Travis> ... We can do the testing-specific stuff later (after Masayuki leaves).
00:17:05 <Travis> ... cross-browser compat stuff is more important to focus on.
00:17:42 <Travis> ... (while Masayuki is with us)
00:18:09 <Travis> Travis: I labelled the bugs that Masayuki felt were most important: https://github.com/w3c/uievents/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%21important
00:22:42 <Travis> We also have two repros for key and code
00:22:48 <Travis> https://github.com/w3c/DOM-Level-3-Events-code this is the code one.
00:23:05 <garykac> There are some bugs that are 'code' and 'key' specific, we need to move these issues out of UIEvents and into the appropriate github project.
00:24:51 <garykac> I'm looking up how to move an issue to a new repro...
00:29:01 <Travis> garykac: Success!
00:29:06 <garykac> I'm using https://github-issue-mover.appspot.com/ to move the 'key' and 'code' issues into the appropriate repo.
00:34:16 <Travis> Travis: I'm starting to revise the pre-existing labels and will do a pass on the existing issues labelling them for easy-identification.
00:38:50 <garykac> I just moved the key and code issues
00:39:06 <garykac> There are now 4 'code' issues and 7 'key' issues
00:39:22 <garykac> And 40 UIEvent issues
00:41:16 <masayuki> Great, I'll be careful when I report key/code issues.
00:41:55 <garykac> It's actually fairly easy to move them using the tool. But it's nice to have them sorted.
00:42:21 <garykac> Masayuki: If you have any suggestions for Labels to group bugs, feel free to add them.
00:42:57 <masayuki> garykac: I see.
00:44:00 <garykac> I'm pretty sure that we're going to want to talk about CompositionEvents at TPAC
00:44:18 <Travis> Travis: yes, with the editing TF.
00:44:30 <garykac> We should all gather in a locked room and fight it out.
00:45:23 <garykac> At TPAC: we need to clarify where beforeinput (and friends) are specified
00:48:11 <garykac> We tagged the CompositionEvent related bugs. We appear have 6 of them.
00:52:24 <masayuki> Sigh... I should read and comment https://github.com/w3c/uievents/issues/5
00:53:56 <garykac> Masayuki: yes, I think that's the one that prompted me to think that we need to sit down and resolve that with them while we're at TPAC.
00:54:19 <garykac> I added a tag to group the "Device" related bugs.
01:01:30 <garykac> OK. Looks like times up. We got some triaging done.
01:03:33 <garykac> I suppose the next time we'll talk to each other will be in Sapporo over ramen.
01:03:47 <Travis> OK, I will be arriving in the afternoon on Sunday. I'll try and connect with you, Gary, when I land.
01:03:55 <garykac> らめん！
01:05:18 <masayuki> I'll be in late Sunday.
01:05:49 <garykac> See you all then!
01:05:57 <masayuki> See you!
01:06:08 <Travis> RRSAgent, generate the minutes
01:06:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html Travis
01:06:18 <Travis> RRSAgent, make logs public
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23:35:17 <xiaoqian> Zakim, this is Web Platform (WebApps) F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2015
23:35:17 <Zakim> got it, xiaoqian
23:37:15 <xiaoqian> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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00:00:52 <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
00:02:18 <timeless> scribe: timeless
00:02:28 <timeless> chair: chaals
00:02:29 <kawai> kawai has joined #webapps
00:02:36 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:02:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:02:47 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
00:03:17 <Arnaud_> Arnaud_ has joined #Webapps
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00:03:42 <timeless> chaals: good morning web platform WG
00:03:46 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
00:03:49 <timeless> ... and guests
00:03:57 <timeless> ... we're looking for someone who can project the information on the screen
00:04:06 <timeless> ... someone prepared to offer to run a screen up here [front of room]
00:04:09 <timeless> ... not a big ask
00:04:44 <nsakai2> nsakai2 has joined #webapps
00:05:07 <timeless> ... second request. People likely to speak about things, please come to the inner ring of seats
00:05:16 <timeless> ... that's easier if you're on the inner tables, and not the outer tables
00:05:22 <timeless> ... We have a laptop
00:05:27 <timeless> s/Travis: Hi!//
00:05:31 <timeless> s/Hi!//
00:05:37 <timeless> s/I'm gearing up for a trip to Japan this weekend!//
00:05:47 <kimwooglae> kimwooglae has joined #webapps
00:05:48 <timeless> ... Here's a demonstration of why siting in the inside is helpful
00:05:49 <guillaume> guillaume has joined #webapps
00:05:57 <timeless> [ chaals leans across inner tables to retrieve a laptop ]
00:06:08 <timeless> chaals: first thing we want up on the screen is the agenda
00:06:11 <Mek> Mek has joined #webapps
00:06:17 <timeless> s/Hey Gary. I just texted you, but you made it!//
00:06:20 <ygkim> ygkim has joined #webapps
00:06:26 <timeless> ... does anyone have a laptop adapter cable?
00:06:35 <timeless> ... all you people w/ Macintosh devices
00:06:42 <timeless> s/Wow, maybe, it's rainy Sunday - Thursday of Sapporo according to weather forceast.//
00:06:47 <timeless> s/Mmm. Not great for walking. Are umbrellas a good choice?//
00:06:49 <kochi> kochi has joined #webapps
00:06:54 <timeless> s/Not sure. 50%. Japanese weather forecaster uses "50%" when they're not sure if it will be actually rainy.//
00:07:01 <timeless> s/I'll be at Keio Plaza Sapporo.//
00:07:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:07:23 <timeless> ... anyone have HDMI to VGA adapter?
00:07:35 <mt_____> mt_____ has joined #webapps
00:07:44 <timeless> meeting: Web Platform WG F2F
00:07:49 <Florian> Florian has joined #webapps
00:07:51 <timeless> ... we're using IRC for tracking this meeting
00:07:56 <za12> za12 has joined #webapps
00:08:18 <timeless> ... everything you say is public, will be written down, and used against you in the future
00:08:27 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
00:08:28 <vivien> vivien has joined #webapps
00:08:52 <dom> dom has joined #webapps
00:09:01 <hober> present+ hober
00:09:01 <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
00:09:09 <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
00:09:10 <karl> karl has joined #webapps
00:09:11 <jyasskin> Present+ jyasskin
00:09:16 <falken> falken has joined #webapps
00:09:21 <xiaoqian> scribe: xiaoqian
00:09:22 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
00:09:23 <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
00:09:28 <gsnedders> present+ gsnedders
00:09:28 <garykac> garykac has joined #webapps
00:09:31 <mt_____> present+ Martin_Thomson
00:09:31 <Mek> Present+ Marijn_Kruisselbrink
00:09:33 <karl> present+ Karl_Dubost
00:09:34 <kenneth_> kenneth_ has joined #webapps
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00:09:37 <anssik> anssik has joined #webapps
00:09:38 <Arnaud_> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
00:09:39 <xiaoqian> chaals: the way we'll do this, it's a big group, it has just begun
00:09:39 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
00:09:42 <masayuki> masayuki has joined #webapps
00:09:42 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
00:09:44 <kimwooglae> Present+ kimwooglae
00:09:46 <xiaoqian> ... it has a lot of work that it covers
00:09:49 <xiaoqian> ... first, introductions
00:09:50 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
00:09:52 <za12> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
00:09:55 <kenneth_> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
00:09:56 <garykac> present+ Gary_Kacmarcik
00:09:56 <xiaoqian> ... in one minute or less, your name, what you're interested in
00:09:58 <Igarashi> Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
00:10:00 <xiaoqian> ... we don't need the details
00:10:03 <falken> Present+ Matt_Falkenhagen
00:10:06 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
00:10:07 <xiaoqian> ... just which specs you'll want to talk about
00:10:16 <xiaoqian> chaals: chaals, I work for Yandex
00:10:17 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
00:10:20 <xiaoqian> ... a cochair of this WG
00:10:29 <hober> present+ mjs
00:10:29 <xiaoqian> ... mostly interested in making sure it gets stuff published
00:11:00 <xiaoqian> LJWatson: XXX, TPG, YYY
00:11:11 <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
00:11:16 <vivien> present+ Vivien_Lacourba
00:11:16 <karl> s/XXX/Leonie Watson/
00:11:21 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #webapps
00:11:23 <aizu> aizu has joined #webapps
00:11:29 <xiaoqian> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, a cochair
00:11:32 <Kasar> Kasar has joined #webapps
00:11:37 <aizu> Presetnt+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
00:11:43 <masayuki> Present+ Masayuki_Nakano
00:11:44 <yhirano_> yhirano_ has joined #webapps
00:11:55 <xiaoqian> jsoref: Josh Soref, scribe, invited expert
00:12:05 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian: xiaoqianX, team contact
00:12:07 <Jxck> Jxck has joined #webapps
00:12:17 <Ari_Keranen> Ari_Keranen has joined #webapps
00:12:17 <annevk> annevk has joined #webapps
00:12:26 <xiaoqian> alia: QQQ, Microsoft, IndexedDB
00:12:55 <xiaoqian> jungkees: Jung Kee, Samsung, Service Workers, XHR Level 1
00:13:18 <xiaoqian> hober: Ted O Connor, Apple, lots of things
00:13:18 <JeffH> JeffH has joined #webapps
00:13:20 <adrianba> s/QQQ/Ali Alabbas/
00:13:39 <xiaoqian> gsnedders: TTT, IE, testing everything
00:13:49 <gsnedders> s/TTT/Geoffrey Sneddon/
00:13:51 <xiaoqian> jyasskin: Jeffry Yasskin, Google, OOO
00:13:58 <jyasskin> s/OOO/Web Bluetooth/
00:13:59 <JakeA> JakeA has joined #webapps
00:14:11 <jyasskin> s/Jeffry/Jeffrey/
00:14:18 <wenyudong_CM> wenyudong_CM has joined #webapps
00:14:19 <xiaoqian> kenneth_: Kenneth Christianson, Intel, manifests, webnfc
00:14:27 <wayne_carr> wayne_carr has joined #webapps
00:14:39 <xiaoqian> anssik: Anssi Koistanen, Intel, specs: editing web app manifest
00:14:42 <tyoshino> tyoshino has joined #webapps
00:14:56 <xiaoqian> annevk: Anne VK, Mozilla, Observer
00:15:04 <jsbell> (do we have audio? called in, it's awfully quiet)
00:15:08 <wayne_carr> Present+ Wayne_Carr
00:15:11 <xiaoqian> JakeA: Jake Arch, Google, Observer
00:15:12 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
00:15:28 <annevk> s/Arch/Archibald/
00:15:40 <xiaoqian> mjs: Macie, Apple, most things
00:15:48 <anssik> s/Koistanen/Kostiainen/
00:15:48 <annevk> s/VK/van Kesteren/
00:16:00 <gsnedders> jsbell: going round room giving introductions
00:16:06 <xiaoqian> wenyudong_CM: Wenyu Dong, China Mobile, SSA
00:16:13 <mjs> s/Macie/Maciej/
00:16:32 <kenneth_> s/Christianson/Christiansen/
00:16:38 <xiaoqian> UUU: USQ, China Mobile, UUQ
00:17:06 <annbass> annbass has joined #webapps
00:17:19 <xiaoqian> hellojintae: WePlanning
00:17:25 <hellojintae> weplanet
00:17:26 <JeffH> sodden thought -- have everyone type their own intro into here rather than burdening the scribe. . . .
00:17:31 <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
00:17:45 <mt_____> mt_____: Martin Thomson, Mozilla, Push &c
00:17:50 <nsakai2> Present+ Narumichi_Sakai
00:18:35 <xiaoqian> Travis: Microsoft, Shadow DOM ...
00:18:49 <xiaoqian> garykac: Google
00:19:02 <mathieucitrix> mathieucitrix has joined #webapps
00:19:05 <JeffH> JeffH: Jeff Hodges, PayPal, Observer
00:19:44 <xiaoqian> Masayuki: IME, Moz
00:19:58 <yhirano_> Yutaka Hirano, Google, interested in fetch & streams
00:20:05 <xiaoqian> @@: IE
00:20:09 <tyoshino> Takeshi Yoshino, Google, Fetch/Streams/XHR
00:20:21 <Hyunijn> Hyunjin, mtreecare
00:20:36 <xiaoqian> tyoshino: Google
00:20:55 <kochi> Takayoshi Kochi, "kochi" on IRC, from Google, working on Shadow DOM
00:20:58 <falken> I'm Matt Falkenhagen, Google, service workers
00:21:09 <xiaoqian> Kochi: Google, Shadow DOM
00:21:10 <yusuke> yusuke has joined #webapps
00:21:15 <Florian> Florian has joined #webapps
00:21:45 <Kasar> Kasar Masood, VIACOM, General interest in web technologies (observer)
00:21:50 <dom> Dominique Hazael-Massieux, W3C Staff, observer
00:21:51 <JF> JF has joined #webapps
00:22:01 <Arnaud_> Arnaud_ : Arnaud Braud , Orange, Push and any Api interacting with the network
00:22:07 <xiaoqian> annbass: Free agent, observing
00:22:25 <xiaoqian> LiuXin: Alibaba
00:22:35 <wenyudong_CM> @xiaoqian   Wei YU, China Mobile.  Wenyu DONG, China Mbile, APIs relevant telecommunication
00:22:37 <xiaoqian> @Zhang: Alibaba
00:22:43 <kimwooglae> KIM WOOGLAE, Inswave
00:22:47 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: Intel
00:22:53 <karl> karl: Karl Dubost, Mozilla, everything about Web Compatibility (observer)
00:22:54 <paulc> paulc has joined #webapps
00:23:02 <paulc> present+ paulc
00:23:10 <xiaoqian> ken@: Moz
00:23:29 <aizu> Hiroyuki Aizu, TOSHIBA, interested in Shadow DOM and Service workers etc.
00:24:05 <xiaoqian> Jing: Huawei
00:24:08 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
00:24:09 <mathieucitrix> Mathieu Hofman, Citrix, Observer
00:24:22 <Mek> Mek: Marijn Kruisselbrink, Google, Service Workers etc
00:24:22 <katsu> Katsuyoshi Naka, Panasonic, interested in WoT
00:24:27 <xiaoqian> paulc: Co chair of HTMLWG
00:24:32 <guillaume> present+ guillaume
00:24:34 <vivien> Vivien Lacourba, W3C Staff, observer
00:25:14 <xiaoqian> guillaume: W3C staff
00:25:34 <annevk> jsbell: still there?
00:25:34 <nsakai2> Narumichi Sakai, Toshiba, interested in Shadow DOM and Service Worker
00:25:35 <jyasskin> jsbell: Are you still trying to listen?
00:25:40 <hyojin__> hyojin__ has joined #webapps
00:25:41 <jsbell> yes
00:25:45 <annevk> jsbell: can you hear something?
00:25:48 <jsbell> nope
00:25:55 <jsbell> (yes, listening; nope on audio)
00:26:26 <annevk> jsbell: someone is looking into it
00:26:37 <jsbell> thanks
00:26:52 <xiaoqian> chaals: (to IT support) we need to investigate webex audio problem
00:27:00 <jsbell> (calling in, not there in person) Joshua Bell, Google, Indexed DB
00:27:05 <xiaoqian> topic: Agenda
00:27:16 <xiaoqian> chaals: plan is to not spend more than 1 hour at a time in the meeting room
00:27:26 <xiaoqian> ... we have a range of topics, some we can postpone
00:27:34 <xiaoqian> ... how many people are members of web platform. please raise your hand
00:27:47 <xiaoqian> ... please raise your hand
00:28:10 <xiaoqian> chaals: how many people were in web apps?
00:28:14 <xiaoqian> ... please raise your hands
00:28:19 <xiaoqian> ... same people ish
00:28:26 <xiaoqian> chaals: if you're an invited expert and want to know how to get reinvited
00:28:29 <xiaoqian> ... it isn't automatic
00:28:41 <xiaoqian> ... web platforms has responsibility for most of HTML
00:28:48 <xiaoqian> ... and whatever W3C decides to develop in HTML
00:29:04 <xiaoqian> ... it's unclear what we will with HTML
00:29:13 <yuwei> yuwei has joined #webapps
00:29:14 <xiaoqian> ... I'll run a session on Wednesday talking about that
00:29:24 <xiaoqian> ... if people are desperate to talk about it, we could add an agenda item
00:29:27 <xiaoqian> ... HTML Editing
00:29:36 <wenyudong_CM> zakim
00:29:36 <xiaoqian> ... an area of work, about fixing .contentEditable
00:29:44 <xiaoqian> [ WebEx breaks into room ]
00:29:56 <xiaoqian> chaals: they're not here yet, so not on agenda for today
00:30:05 <xiaoqian> ... tomorrow, a breakout group will work on Service Workers
00:30:34 <xiaoqian> jgraham: we'll work through the issues in Service Worker, and improvements to core, Fetch, lifecycle, cache api
00:30:34 <wenyudong_CM> Zakim, who is here?
00:30:34 <Zakim> Present: Joshua_Bell, hober, Travis_Leithead, Jungkee_Song, jyasskin, LJWatson, gsnedders, Martin_Thomson, Marijn_Kruisselbrink, Karl_Dubost, Arnaud_Braud,
00:30:38 <Zakim> ... Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Adrian_Bateman, kimwooglae, Anssi_Kostiainen, Hiroyuki_Aizu, Kenneth_Christiansen, Gary_Kacmarcik, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Matt_Falkenhagen, mjs,
00:30:38 <Zakim> ... Ali_Alabbas, Vivien_Lacourba, Masayuki_Nakano, Wayne_Carr, Takeshi_Yoshino, Narumichi_Sakai, paulc, guillaume
00:30:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see yuwei, hyojin__, dka, paulc, JF, Florian, yusuke, mathieucitrix, annbass, plh, wayne_carr, wenyudong_CM, JakeA, JeffH, annevk, Ari_Keranen, yhirano_, Kasar, aizu,
00:30:42 <Zakim> ... ivan_, mjs, alia, masayuki, anssik, kurosawa, kenneth_, garykac, falken, karl, dom, vivien, Travis, za12, mt_____, kochi, ygkim, Mek, guillaume, kimwooglae, nsakai2,
00:30:42 <Zakim> ... hellojintae, Arnaud_, rniwa, kawai, LJWatson, Igarashi, jsbell, jungkees, minami, wonsuk___, Hyunijn, shepazu, katsu, Sam_, tomoyuki, zqzhang, jyasskin, Zakim, dgrogan,
00:30:42 <Zakim> ... krijnhoetmer, raucao
00:30:42 <xiaoqian> ... unlikely to discuss background sync or push
00:31:05 <xiaoqian> chaals: potential topics: CSS, Shadow DOM
00:31:05 <xiaoqian> ... ES modules in HTML
00:31:32 <xiaoqian> ... I believe there are other topics people are interested in
00:31:37 <xiaoqian> ... we'll try to put that on the agenda
00:31:40 <jsbell> (audio appears to be fixed, thx)
00:31:44 <xiaoqian> ... if you have a topic you'd like to add, please put your hand up
00:32:16 <xiaoqian> hober: constraints, rsuniwa would like to be here for Web Components (tomorrow) -- he's at WebPerf today,
00:32:40 <xiaoqian> ... we'd like someone to call in for ES Modules from Cupertino, so tomorrow morning
00:32:46 <kochi> s/rsuniwa/rniwa/
00:32:50 <xiaoqian> chaals: if someone could get npdoty
00:33:07 <kochi> or "Ryosuke Niwa"
00:33:31 <xiaoqian> chaals: we'd like PSIG at some point (npdoty?)
00:33:35 <xiaoqian> ... other topics/specs?
00:33:53 <xiaoqian> Travis: 10 mins to talk about Design Guidelines draft
00:33:59 <dom> s/PSIG/PING/
00:34:29 <xiaoqian> alia: IndexedDB v2 and status
00:34:39 <xiaoqian> ... directory upload proposal (currently in incubatory)
00:34:42 <jeff> jeff has joined #webapps
00:34:54 <xiaoqian> annevk: slot on Fetch+Streams
00:34:58 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
00:35:11 <xiaoqian> ... if group is small, ~2 hours, it's a combined topic, not separate
00:35:26 <justin__> justin__ has joined #webapps
00:35:30 <xiaoqian> ... we asked ArtB if we could do between 10-12
00:35:38 <xiaoqian> chaals: spec update, break, fetch+streams
00:35:44 <xiaoqian> ... if you take two hours, you get two sessions
00:36:07 <xiaoqian> adrianba: Joint meeting w/ Web Annotation
00:36:16 <xiaoqian> chaals: oh, and joint meeting w/ Aria
00:36:24 <xiaoqian> ... CSS/Shadow DOM, tomorrow afternoon
00:36:32 <xiaoqian> ... ES module imports for tomorrow morning
00:36:40 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
00:36:45 <xiaoqian> ... HTML modularisation for the rest
00:36:53 <xiaoqian> [ no responses for baiting ]
00:37:08 <xiaoqian> chaals: how many people are interested in both Web Components and Service Workers v1?
00:37:15 <xiaoqian> hober: I clash, but that's fine
00:37:30 <xiaoqian> chaals: ok, tomorrow for both (concurrently?)
00:37:37 <xiaoqian> ... how long for ES Modules?
00:37:42 <xiaoqian> hober: less than an hour
00:38:05 <xiaoqian> ... do Web Components unrelated to CSS right before CSS agenda
00:38:13 <xiaoqian> chaals: CSS+Shadow DOM ~1 hour
00:38:21 <xiaoqian> ... how many people going to AC meeting tomorrow?
00:38:23 <xiaoqian> ... ~3
00:38:27 <xiaoqian> ... ok,
00:38:40 <xiaoqian> ... doesn't affect group, good, but it affects me, but adrianba can chair
00:38:51 <xiaoqian> ... today: web components after lunch
00:38:59 <xiaoqian> ... we'll retweak timinig
00:39:05 <xiaoqian> s/timinig/timing/
00:39:18 <xiaoqian> ... current assumes 90 mins in a row, which is too long
00:39:31 <xiaoqian> topic: Pub Status
00:39:43 <xiaoqian> chaals: we'll look at what it is web platform is going to work on
00:40:10 <timeless> scribe: timeless
00:40:25 <timeless> chaals: can i put api design first
00:40:29 <timeless> ... fetch and streams
00:40:36 <timeless> ... web annotation has asked for a joint meeting/time
00:40:39 <timeless> ... we'll wrap around that
00:40:50 <timeless> ... we may renegotiate w/ aria
00:40:58 <timeless> ... and then directory upload when we get to it
00:41:05 <timeless> ... anyone who had a request that I ignored or forgot?
00:41:07 <timeless> [ none ]
00:41:22 <timeless> topic: Publication Status
00:41:31 <timeless> chaals: HTML postponed
00:41:35 <timeless> ... clipboard API + events
00:41:40 <timeless> ... we have an editor
00:41:47 <timeless> ... we have someone working on a test suite
00:41:49 <jsbell> https://www.w3.org/WebPlatform/WG/PubStatus
00:41:58 <timeless> ... every spec we make needs more tests, even if it has a lot, we almost certainly need more
00:42:07 <timeless> ... we're always looking for someone to write/review tests
00:42:23 <timeless> ... for each spec I mention, i'd hope someone would volunteer to work on tests for it
00:42:52 <timeless> ... we don't have a status report, halvard works on it on/off
00:43:04 <timeless> ... DOM Level 3 Keyboard Events
00:43:11 <timeless> Travis: exciting things are happening here
00:43:22 <timeless> ... Mozilla is implementing, Google is implementing, MS will hopefully catch up
00:43:36 <timeless> ... small spec, mostly scan codes/key codes for characters/virtual keys
00:43:53 <timeless> chaals: no test facilitator
00:44:02 <timeless> ... anyone want to write/collect/review tests
00:44:16 <timeless> Travis: we have masayuki who documented on MDN page the various mappings
00:44:29 <timeless> chaals: if we could link that, it'd be good
00:44:37 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:44:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:44:45 <wenyudong_CM> RRSagent, draft minutes
00:44:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html wenyudong_CM
00:44:50 <timeless> Travis: DOM Parsing and Serialization
00:45:00 <timeless> ... in CR, we have several bugs, I'm writing tests
00:45:17 <timeless> ... next, write implementation report once they get through the web platform process
00:45:31 <yuwei> who
00:45:38 <timeless> ... at least one implementations pass each test
00:45:43 <timeless> chaals: impls, but not clean
00:45:47 <sangwhan> sangwhan has joined #webapps
00:46:05 <timeless> chaals: File API, arun has been working on this for longer than Web Apps has existed
00:46:26 <timeless> ... test implementer, need help, more than a decade in the making, fairly small, looking for volunteers
00:46:30 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
00:46:33 <timeless> Travis: not voluteering
00:46:41 <timeless> ... has this spec seen a lot of churn recently?
00:46:43 <timeless> ... why just WD?
00:46:56 <timeless> chaals: churn recently, slow progress because stuff only happens once a year
00:46:59 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #webapps
00:47:00 <annbass_> annbass_ has joined #webapps
00:47:03 <timeless> ... lack of progress is lack of people working on it
00:47:13 <timeless> chaals: File System API, long standing item, we don't know
00:47:14 <jsbell> (lost audio again)
00:47:28 <timeless> ... if anyone would like to work on an item, you could work on it
00:47:33 <timeless> ... you could be famous
00:47:44 <timeless> chaals: Find Text api, we'll talk w/ Web Annotation later
00:47:50 <timeless> ... Gamepad, we have a spec, it's moving along
00:47:57 <timeless> ... IndexedDB
00:48:13 <timeless> alia: is jsbell on the call?
00:48:24 <jsbell> I can't hear any more :( Take it away, alia
00:48:26 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
00:48:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
00:48:34 <timeless> ... there's quite a bit of work for v2
00:48:40 <timeless> ... incorporating, documenting features,
00:48:41 <za12> za12 has joined #webapps
00:48:45 <timeless> ... working to contiguous IDL
00:48:53 <timeless> ... changing algorithms so they're more imperative
00:48:59 <timeless> ... looking for people to review, ensure nothing is broken,
00:49:12 <timeless> ... looking for people to look into Promise version
00:49:19 <timeless> chaals: Impl Status?
00:49:38 <timeless> alia: some parts of v2 are already in Firefox and now Chrome, otherwise, no change
00:49:49 <timeless> chaals: anyone know implementers, who might be convinced to upgrade?
00:49:52 <timeless> [ Silence ]
00:49:52 <kawai> kawai has joined #webapps
00:49:59 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:49:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:50:21 <timeless> chaals: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, some people don't work in public
00:50:28 <timeless> ... IME
00:50:39 <timeless> Travis: Editing TF is looking once again at this area
00:50:55 <timeless> ... in ML, they've even talked about specifying IME behaviors
00:51:08 <timeless> chaals: IME causes big problems for Editors
00:51:19 <timeless> ... but it's a system/platform level thing that might interfere w/ browsers
00:51:29 <timeless> ... people also write Browser-based IMEs
00:51:39 <timeless> ... our audience uses Russian+English together
00:51:44 <timeless> ... Manifests for Web Apps
00:52:02 <timeless> MMM: basically stable
00:52:10 <timeless> ... implemented in Firefox, MS
00:52:19 <wonsuk_> wonsuk_ has joined #webapps
00:52:35 <timeless> chaals: how to standardize Browser Extensions?
00:52:51 <timeless> ... we could use Manifests for this
00:52:57 <ijongcheol> ijongcheol has joined #webapps
00:53:01 <timeless> ... Jenny Tenisson proposed ....
00:53:04 <Florian_> Florian_ has joined #webapps
00:53:15 <timeless> ... anyone know what happened, did it die? people proposed HTTP2?
00:53:17 <gsnedders> s/Jenny/Jeni/
00:53:21 <timeless> ... Digital Pub?
00:53:33 <timeless> ... Pointer Lock
00:53:43 <timeless> ... blocked on implementation?
00:53:50 <timeless> ... no one mentioned it
00:53:55 <timeless> ... we won't talk about it
00:54:09 <timeless> ... Push API
00:54:16 <timeless> gsnedders: pretty active
00:54:46 <Yves> re: packaging - the "performance" aspect of it is not the right angle anymore (there are better ways), but interest from digital publishing and secutiry use cases, so spec is not dead yet
00:54:50 <gsnedders> That wasn't me. I don't know who it was.
00:54:55 <timeless> chaals: Quota Management
00:54:59 <timeless> ... TAG?
00:55:04 <timeless> chaals: Screen Orientation
00:55:08 <timeless> ... chugging away?
00:55:13 <timeless> ... Selection API
00:55:20 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
00:55:21 <timeless> ... part of stuff that goes into Editing
00:55:25 <timeless> ... editors select things
00:55:31 <timeless> ... it's pretty horrible and messy
00:55:39 <timeless> ... they'll meet on Wednesday
00:55:43 <timeless> ... Service Workers
00:55:53 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
00:56:17 <timeless> ZZZ: heading to v1, shipping in Chrome, Firefox is getting close
00:56:32 <timeless> chaals: people are using it on the web
00:56:38 <timeless> ZZZ: there's a Crossword
00:56:54 <timeless> jungkees: we'll push candidate Rec after TPAC
00:56:55 <falken> s/ZZZ/JakeA
00:56:59 <timeless> ... there was a CfC
00:57:04 <timeless> s/ZZZ/JakeA/
00:57:11 <timeless> ... confident to publish a CR soon
00:57:21 <karl> slightly related to screenorientation, window.orientation for Web Compat issues https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/N3i7Yc2UpR0
00:57:24 <timeless> ... Samsung will also ship Service Workers soon
00:57:32 <timeless> s/we'll/Service Workers - we'll/
00:57:44 <timeless> chaals: if you have issues w/ Service Workers, tell them NOW
00:58:01 <timeless> ... UI Events
00:58:10 <timeless> Travis: new name, hoping to start a revival
00:58:15 <timeless> ... lots of bugs
00:58:26 <timeless> ... primarily focused on testing of the spec
00:58:32 <timeless> ... cleaning out the old testsuite test
00:58:39 <timeless> ... focusing on interop/questions
00:58:43 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:58:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:59:02 <timeless> ... novelty is in keyboard events
00:59:09 <timeless> ... focus/mouse is pretty stable
00:59:12 <timeless> s/Travis: And I'm at the Renessance hotel.//
00:59:21 <timeless> CXX: input events
00:59:31 <timeless> ... a few things were moved out
00:59:50 <timeless> ... one we're hoping to address is "beforeInput" and "input"
01:00:01 <timeless> chaals: that goes to Editing, we'll talk on Wednesday
01:00:14 <timeless> ... URL, annevk: that's in WHAT WG?
01:00:21 <timeless> ... Web IDL ... mjs?
01:00:38 <gsnedders> s/gsnedders: pretty active/AAX: pretty active/
01:00:52 <timeless> Travis: I've been working w/ yeves.. getting an old pr from heycam
01:01:01 <timeless> ... hoping to get that wrapped up and checked in this week
01:01:18 <timeless> ... that will unblock the tests to get the level 1 of WebIDL, and get that published to REC
01:01:27 <timeless> chaals: Web Sockets
01:01:42 <timeless> xiaoqian: for features implemented, we'll publish at the end of this year or beginning of next year
01:01:55 <timeless> ... current Implementation Report, we have some small things
01:02:02 <timeless> ... Web Workers, same ...
01:02:17 <timeless> ... I know people are still adding some new features, but we may publish a REC for the stable features
01:02:28 <timeless> ... still CfC, and evolving
01:02:33 <timeless> chaals: XHR Level !
01:02:35 <timeless> s/!/1/
01:02:36 <Florian_> Florian_ has joined #webapps
01:02:47 <timeless> jungkees: we're not actively working on it, the gap is pretty huge spec wise
01:02:54 <timeless> ... I didn't here anything from VVV
01:02:59 <timeless> ... probably publish a NOTE
01:03:03 <timeless> ... like to hear opinions
01:03:08 <timeless> chaals: a NOTE, not a REC?
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01:03:15 <timeless> jungkees: I don't think moving to REC makes real sense here
01:03:33 <timeless> ... annevk is working on XHR Living Standard, it's now using Fetch
01:03:46 <timeless> ... we could try to make it compatible in some level, because it's APIs
01:03:48 <guillaume> guillaume has joined #webapps
01:03:59 <timeless> ... but the behavior/implementation is pretty different, I don't know how much value it makes
01:04:16 <timeless> chaals: this is documentation on what is interoperable and widely implemented
01:04:24 <timeless> jungkees: a lot of work to make it happen, no one is working on it
01:04:37 <timeless> chaals: we're unlikely to bother making this a complete REC
01:04:54 <timeless> ... as a content producer, is this the spec you'd rely on if you wanted broad interop
01:05:03 <timeless> ... what do people who need to ship to the wide web implement against?
01:05:15 <timeless> jungkees: I haven't checked the latest changes, but there should be quite a few changes...
01:05:32 <timeless> chaals: annevk: what's the impl status of the new/incompatible/different
01:05:44 <timeless> ... is the whatwg stuff speculative, or would it work today?
01:05:47 <timeless> annevk: 50/50
01:05:54 <timeless> chaals: enough of an answer
01:06:04 <timeless> ... two questions: is there value to creating a REC
01:06:19 <timeless> ... how far is the spec from publishable, some work required? need someone to work on it to make it publishable
01:06:25 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:06:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
01:06:33 <timeless> chaals: to everyone here who isn't a browser producer
01:06:44 <timeless> ... if you're publishing to the web, you need specs, need specs that tell you what you can do
01:06:58 <timeless> ... browser vendors in this WG tend to say what they want, have well thought ideas
01:07:05 <timeless> ... content producers don't do that, and should be
01:07:20 <timeless> ... if there's a failure in the group, it's that we don't have enough input from people who want to produce content
01:07:25 <timeless> ... Web Component specs?
01:07:33 <timeless> ... they're being worked on
01:07:42 <timeless> ... whose on WebEx? just jsbell ?
01:07:55 <timeless> Travis: Custom Elements has proposals for locking down when parsing happens
01:08:03 <timeless> ... synchronicity, core to spec, talking about those later
01:08:15 <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, active implementation happening
01:08:21 <timeless> ... in Safari and Chrome
01:08:27 <timeless> ... Microsoft has stated we want to get started
01:08:32 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
01:08:37 <timeless> ... not a lot of big blocking issues
01:08:42 <timeless> chaals: HTML Imports
01:08:49 <timeless> ... Mozilla says they're not interested
01:08:56 <timeless> Travis: I think we need a conversation about that
01:09:04 <timeless> ... maybe talk about that in ES Modules
01:09:11 <timeless> chaals: push resolution to tomorrow
01:09:21 <timeless> ... Recs in maintenance mode
01:09:26 <timeless> ... sometimes they go out of date
01:09:29 <timeless> ... that's our specs
01:09:35 <timeless> ... next agenda item is API Design
01:09:41 <timeless> ... we'll talk about that after a short break
01:09:47 <timeless> ... welcome yves, staff contact
01:09:52 <timeless> ... come back in the next 20 minutes
01:09:56 <timeless> [ Break ]
01:10:02 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:10:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
01:10:16 <JeffH> JeffH has joined #webapps
01:10:18 <jsbell> (dropping off now, thanks for kicking the audio a few times, folks)
01:10:22 <justin> justin has joined #webapps
01:10:29 <timeless> s/Let's have a status update!//
01:10:41 <timeless> s/I'm arriving in Sapporo late Saturday.//
01:10:51 <timeless> s/I moved the bugs over to github//
01:11:24 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:11:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
01:11:50 <timeless> s/Status update:/Status update: I moved the bugs over to github/
01:12:04 <timeless> s/garykac: ...from bugzilla.//
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01:12:56 <xiaoqian> zakim, who is here?
01:12:56 <Zakim> Present: Joshua_Bell, hober, Travis_Leithead, Jungkee_Song, jyasskin, LJWatson, gsnedders, Martin_Thomson, Marijn_Kruisselbrink, Karl_Dubost, Arnaud_Braud,
01:13:00 <Zakim> ... Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Adrian_Bateman, kimwooglae, Anssi_Kostiainen, Hiroyuki_Aizu, Kenneth_Christiansen, Gary_Kacmarcik, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Matt_Falkenhagen, mjs,
01:13:00 <Zakim> ... Ali_Alabbas, Vivien_Lacourba, Masayuki_Nakano, Wayne_Carr, Takeshi_Yoshino, Narumichi_Sakai, paulc, guillaume
01:13:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see ijongcheol, justin, JeffH, kurosawa, guillaume, garykac, plh, dka, wonsuk_, kawai, za12, annbass, JonathanJ, sangwhan, sicking, yuwei, hyojin__, JF, yusuke,
01:13:04 <Zakim> ... mathieucitrix, wayne_carr, wenyudong_CM, JakeA, yhirano_, Kasar, ivan_, alia, masayuki, anssik, kenneth_, falken, karl, dom, vivien, Travis, mt_____, ygkim, Mek, nsakai2,
01:13:04 <Zakim> ... rniwa, LJWatson, Igarashi, jungkees, Hyunijn, shepazu, katsu, Sam_, zqzhang, jyasskin, Zakim, dgrogan, krijnhoetmer, raucao, logbot, ElijahLynn, scheib, krit, tobie, cwilso,
01:13:04 <Zakim> ... slightlyoff, timeless
01:14:17 <Florian_> Florian_ has joined #webapps
01:14:19 <timeless> s/over to github/from bugzilla over to github/
01:14:48 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:14:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
01:15:08 <timeless> s/garykac: I will be staying at Keio hotel.//
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01:20:22 <npdoty_> I'd love to come chat with Web Platform WG. per earlier conversation, I hope you're not inviting me to talk about patents
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01:36:39 <Travis> http://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/
01:36:50 <LJWatson> TOPIC: API design principles
01:37:11 <webapp-projects> webapp-projects has joined #webapps
01:37:30 <Travis> http://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/
01:37:45 <LJWatson> Travis: Spec contains information that hasn't previously been documented before.
01:37:50 <akeranen> akeranen has joined #webapps
01:37:54 <xiaoqian> scribe: LJWatson
01:37:58 <LJWatson> ... Want to share it here and solicit feedback.
01:38:00 <jyasskin> (It's *so bad* that Travis had to join the TAG to learn about these documents.)
01:38:28 <Travis> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues
01:38:40 <LJWatson> ... It provides guidance on what to do and what not to do when designing an API.
01:38:45 <JakeA> Travis: should this link to or even incorporate https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide
01:38:57 <LJWatson> Chaals: Who is editing an API?
01:39:05 <yuwei> yuwei has joined #webapps
01:39:25 <LJWatson> ... About 12. How many have read this spec?
01:39:29 <LJWatson> ... About none.
01:39:52 <LJWatson> .. Is the TAG reviewing APIs against this doc?
01:40:02 <LJWatson> Travis: Implicitly, yes.
01:40:12 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
01:40:25 <LJWatson> CMN: Would like to request the TAG does use this doc when reviewing APIs.
01:40:45 <LJWatson> Travis: We'll take it under consideration.
01:40:52 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
01:40:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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01:41:02 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Streams and Fetch
01:41:36 <LJWatson> Anne: Whoever is interested in Fetch and Streams, is welcome to join our breakout.
01:42:27 <annevk> annevk has joined #webapps
01:42:54 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
01:43:23 <JeffH> sodden thot: someone in AnneVK's fetch huddle ought to scribe
01:43:26 <paulc> paulc has joined #webapps
01:43:42 <paulc> test
01:44:08 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
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01:44:53 <LJWatson> Anne: Fetch now has support for streaming of responsive ???
01:45:57 <webapp-projects> s/responsive ???/response bodies
01:46:32 <LJWatson> YHI: We think it's useful to have user contructed responses.
01:46:36 <webapp-projects> scribeNick: webapps-projects
01:46:40 <webapp-projects> Jake: what is the alternative?
01:46:41 <LJWatson> Jake: What's the alternative?
01:47:09 <npdoty_> npdoty_ has joined #webapps
01:47:22 <webapp-projects> AvK: we have request object, response object, both have a body that in theort is a stream.\
01:47:40 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
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01:47:43 <webapp-projects> ... lifecycle is you apss a request to a fetch that returns a promise for a response object, and that has access to teh body stream in some way.
01:47:48 <adrianba> s/apss/pass/
01:48:00 <adrianba> s/teh/the/
01:48:08 <webapp-projects> with service workers the lifecycle gets bigger - it gets the requests nad you can manipulate the response that can be used by whatever gets the response.
01:48:14 <webapp-projects> ... except websocket doesn't integrate
01:48:19 <adrianba> s/nad/and/
01:48:21 <webapp-projects> TL: is the response object finite?\
01:48:39 <webapp-projects> AvK: No, it is an HTTP response - if the connection satays iopen, possible in theory, it could be infinite.\
01:48:49 <webapp-projects> TL: you get an object and notice when ythere is more info?
01:49:12 <webapp-projects> AvK: Fetch returns a response object when the headers have been received, and has an accessor to get the body. Currently very simplistic.
01:49:31 <webapp-projects> ... they require finite streams because otherwise the promises will never resolbe and you run out of memory.
01:49:39 <webapp-projects> ... but we assiume ingfinite memory in specs...
01:49:41 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #webapps
01:50:01 <webapp-projects> ... question is: we have body exposed as a stream for response.
01:50:08 <neochoon> neochoon has joined #webapps
01:50:19 <webapp-projects> ... what do we do next. should we expose request.body as well?
01:50:37 <webapp-projects> ... I think XXX was syugesting we extend response constructors to enable passing in a n object.
01:50:41 <ctwcpinc> ctwcpinc has joined #webapps
01:50:53 <webapp-projects> Jake: in fetch spec, request the body.
01:51:08 <webapp-projects> AvK: Body is the entire thing, and there is a separate body on entire stream.
01:51:18 <justin> justin has joined #webapps
01:51:19 <webapp-projects> YY: We have body but only response has the bofy property
01:51:26 <webapp-projects> AvK: Until we figure out the design.
01:51:56 <webapp-projects> TL: in medai capture they are looking at recording a media stream. A potentially infinite stream you want to capture in pieces over time. THey have a model that seems to work for that.
01:52:23 <webapp-projects> Matthew: media not using streams, they should consider that. It is very different. Streams can be used for other cases in media.
01:52:41 <webapp-projects> TL: I know media are not considered a specigic data format so you can't just suck bytes off and use them.
01:53:07 <webapp-projects> ..JS: seems tehre are 2 questions - how do we stream a request, how do we create a response object with a JS-controlled stream as its body
01:53:10 <webapp-projects> AvK: Yes.
01:53:13 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
01:53:22 <webapp-projects> ... you want to create a request and access its body as a stream.
01:53:35 <webapp-projects> JS: Stream has a readable constructor, obvious thing would be to let body be one of those.
01:53:44 <webapp-projects> AvK: there is also a writable stream - which one?
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01:54:00 <webapp-projects> MJS: How do you create a request - are they inputs to the API created by the user?
01:54:11 <webapp-projects> looks like the constructor takes another request, or a string that I assume is the URL.
01:54:22 <webapp-projects> ... how do I make a request with my own stuff?
01:54:28 <webapp-projects> AvK: There is a second argument.
01:54:43 <webapp-projects> MJS: OK, I see. If one of the options was a readable stream, it seems like that would so it.,
01:54:57 <webapp-projects> AvK: There are some outstanding things in the strerams spec about  writeable vs readable.
01:55:16 <webapp-projects> MJS: from th request, the point is reading it - the interface is a readable stream beacuse they have to read it to issue the request.
01:55:35 <webapp-projects> AvK: Not sure if we want to get into the request discussion now. one thing is you pass a request to fetch and it clones the request.
01:55:43 <webapp-projects> ... then you need to do something special with the stream
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01:56:14 <webapp-projects> ... we ideally want the stream you get to be the low-level socket. To get a handle on that you want to expose it the moment you use the fetch method, or you have an abstraction stream that pipes into it.
01:56:43 <webapp-projects> MJS: For request? seems that stream doesn't directly represent an undertlying socket, just a custom way of provifding data. Are you taking the request from the network?
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01:57:07 <webapp-projects> ... seems like for the common use case producing a complicated long request being assembled, it isn't common that there is an underlying single socket.
01:57:19 <webapp-projects> Avk: If you request from a server the OS opens a connection. then you write bytes to it.
01:57:27 <jyasskin> Zakim: JS is me
01:57:30 <webapp-projects> MJS: The implementation is reading from the stream and writing to the socket.
01:57:41 <webapp-projects> AvK: you might want to expose that socket to directly access what is going in
01:58:11 <webapp-projects> MJS: Suspect strongly that is a premature optimisaiton. In webkit we pass abstract stream objects as part of a request, e.g. posting a form with files - we don't want to pre-compose the body in memory.
01:58:23 <webapp-projects> never sseemed to be a bottleneck that we are doing this instead of reading then writing.
01:58:37 <webapp-projects> ... think for the common case the person making teh request porovides the stream leaves you with th cloning problem,...
01:58:45 <webapp-projects> AVK: The cloning problem isn't a big thing.
01:58:55 <webapp-projects> ... thin domenic wanted to expose the lowest level to JS
01:59:23 <webapp-projects> MJS: real level network APIs for URLS don't expose that. Ones for servers might, because you're bound by your ability   to get from disk to IO.
01:59:39 <webapp-projects> ... ther are many things that are lower level than you would expose from JS, like pull in this file afterwards.
01:59:48 <webapp-projects> ??: We have that operation in the streams spec.
01:59:58 <webapp-projects> ... you can dump a readable to a writeable stream.
02:00:10 <webapp-projects> MJS: so in theory that could optimise if we knew the pieces?
02:00:27 <dom> s/??/jyasskin/
02:00:33 <webapp-projects> JS: Stream has a blocking system so if data is waiting and not observed by others, think the browser can optimise the stream reading.
02:00:53 <webapp-projects> MJS: API is designed to copy from readable to writeable streams. so seems like provising a readable stream makes sense.
02:01:13 <webapp-projects> ... don't think it makes sense to provide a writeable stream, you give a cllbakc that creates something and that seems like weird.
02:01:29 <adrianba> s/cllbakc/callback/
02:01:36 <webapp-projects> ... you have to have dataprovidesr giving a readable stream not being given a writeable stream. Otherwise thye are a callback that gives a writeable stream.
02:01:56 <webapp-projects> matt: design would create a pair -  a writeable stream that writes to a readable stream.
02:02:13 <webapp-projects> Jake; In the streams spec as a transform stream - a writeable and a readable stream.
02:02:34 <webapp-projects> XXX This is the identity transform sctream
02:02:40 <jyasskin> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#ts
02:02:46 <dom> s/sctream/stream/
02:02:50 <webapp-projects> Martin: THink maciej is right on readable stream.
02:03:14 <webapp-projects> ... this is how you plumb the thing - readable stream comes from a request, you pipe that to the request. Having identity transform solves the problem.
02:03:43 <webapp-projects> ... retunring to clone, consider the clone happening and that prodeuces a stream from the clone and that is the primitive fetch uses, so explain fetch in terms of the streams it has, makes it easy to model.
02:03:51 <dom> s/retunring/returning/
02:03:53 <webapp-projects> the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body.
02:03:54 <timeless> s/prodeuces/produces/
02:03:57 <webapp-projects> ... seems simple, has anyone written it up?
02:04:17 <falken> s/XXX/tyoshino/
02:04:25 <webapp-projects> MJS:" Cloning is tricky because if you want to issue the request more than once, if you clone a request with transient information and it disappears, you have a problem.
02:04:33 <webapp-projects> ... all other request bodies don't have that issue.
02:04:38 <webapp-projects> ... maybe 3 ways round.
02:04:38 <jyasskin> We need a "tee" operation.
02:04:51 <webapp-projects> ... 1, make it invalid to replay a stream request - sucks.
02:05:12 <webapp-projects>  ... 2 instead of a stream you provvide a cllback to make the stream on demand, and you can produce the stream more than once if required.
02:05:14 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:05:35 <webapp-projects> ... another is to fork a stream and catch the data in the middle but I think that defeats the purpose of having a stream, e.g. not ahving to hold the whole thing in memry
02:05:40 <timeless> i/Welcome everyone!/scribe: Travis/
02:05:43 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:06:04 <webapp-projects> AvK: We already neuter requests after first use. But there si a clone operation, and we would have to throw an exception if the request depended on a readable stream or we could tee - maybe that is somewhat reasonable.
02:06:18 <webapp-projects> Jake: Clone request so it can replay the post for a redirect?
02:06:31 <timeless> s/We also have two repros for key and code/... We also have two repros for key and code/
02:06:44 <webapp-projects> AvK: No, it is sort of to reset a set of potentially problematic features for service workerrs. that we don't want fetch to use
02:06:52 <webapp-projects> Jake: No case of post body being sent?
02:06:57 <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/DOM-Level-3-Events-code this is the code one.|... https://github.com/w3c/DOM-Level-3-Events-code this is the code one.|
02:07:00 <webapp-projects> AVK: Yes there is but it isn't the reason we did this.
02:07:27 <webapp-projects> ... need to add different headers in a later stage, you need to replay in redirect or auth dialogs. So we would also need to change and tee for thiose cases.
02:07:34 <timeless> s/scribeNick: webapps-projects/scribeNick: webapp-projects/
02:07:40 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:07:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:07:41 <webapp-projects> ... that makes request harder - need to decide what to do in network layer
02:07:48 <webapp-projects> MJS: No way to tee an arbitrary stream?
02:08:04 <webapp-projects> Martin: you can always ...
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02:08:30 <timeless> s/never sseemed/... never seemed/
02:08:42 <webapp-projects> MJS: I assume we can't afford to assume infinite memory in reality. You may be able to tee with participation of the stream, that can be used to build another vrion, but if you are reading live from the network there is no way to tee because you don't know if you will get that back
02:08:48 <timeless> s/Jake; In the streams/Jake: In the streams
02:09:01 <webapp-projects> matt: don't think we should tee automatically. You might run out of memory teeing on request, but at least you asked for that.
02:09:17 <webapp-projects> ... think the request issue is latency - start sedning something fast, not to avoid memory use.
02:09:25 <falken> s/matt/jyasskin/
02:09:29 <timeless> s/ This is the i/: This is the i/
02:09:35 <webapp-projects> MJS: If that isn't th primary design goal, you should still include "don't catch everything in memory"
02:09:49 <timeless> s/the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body./... the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body./
02:09:53 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:09:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:10:11 <webapp-projects> AVK: Request body is a stream today ignoting JS stream, unless redicrects are disabled and no dialogs, the request will need to be teed for compat. We could have a special case that if you pass a readable stream you can't auth or redirect, but
02:10:15 <webapp-projects> MJS: that would be a fail
02:10:23 <webapp-projects> AVK: and then you would have to tee.
02:10:33 <timeless> s/looks like the constructor/... looks like the constructor/
02:10:54 <webapp-projects> MJS: Even if you expose body as a atream, the inputs are all data objects, only JS streams raise a concept of teeing because other stuff you can clone without cloning the stream.
02:11:04 <webapp-projects> AVK: you can implement in various ways. In spec defined as a te operation.
02:11:26 <webapp-projects> MJS: If it was a tee as gd described, start from where you are, it isn't that it resets at the start
02:11:27 <webapp-projects> AVK: Yeah tee happens at the start.
02:11:38 <webapp-projects> MJS: So if you tee, read all through nd read other stuff....
02:11:40 <dom> s/gd/jeffrey/
02:11:44 <timeless> i/Travis: Spec contains/scribe: LJWatson/
02:11:53 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:11:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:12:31 <webapp-projects> ... want to suggest alternative. instead of providing custom implementor-readable stream you provide a function that can produce one on demand when you send. that can have state to enable reproduction of the stream and might be more useful than geenric tee, or giuve a way to tee using a custom tee on request.
02:12:41 <webapp-projects> AVK: reditrects are not exposed, they might bring a security risk of sorts.
02:12:54 <timeless> s/scribe: LJWatson/scribe: _LJWatson/
02:13:01 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:13:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:13:05 <webapp-projects> MJS: you expose that request is played more than once. might mean a reditrect or ultipple issuing the requst, doesn't seem like a big deal.
02:13:19 <timeless> s/scribe: _LJWatson//
02:13:23 <webapp-projects> AVK: You can tell the redirect happened, not how often but you can get the info of howmany times it redirected...
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02:13:29 <webapp-projects> Jake: What does progress do with redirect?
02:13:34 <webapp-projects> ... in XHR
02:13:35 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:13:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:13:45 <webapp-projects> AvK: You can tell from completion.
02:14:14 <webapp-projects> Jake: We say streams instead of progress events. so with a request the cloning at the start means we lose the ability to use those for progess events? Does the stream get read to completion before sending?
02:14:18 <webapp-projects> AVK: Don't know...
02:14:31 <timeless> s/with service workers the lifecycle/... with service workers the lifecycle/
02:14:43 <webapp-projects> jake: It oulwd be good to use stream to indicate progress of an upload. tricky if you redirect and replay
02:14:43 <webapp-projects> AVK: like MJS design of callback design
02:14:47 <webapp-projects> ake: ditto..
02:14:53 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:14:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:15:03 <webapp-projects> AVK: That opens option for writeabl streams, you get th reight notification when you need it
02:15:33 <timeless> s/writeabel/writeable/
02:15:33 <webapp-projects> TL: with writeabel you an write any time. with readable stream you want to ensure the same content gets reread but that isn't guaranteed.
02:15:48 <timeless> s|s/writeabel/writeable/||
02:15:53 <timeless> s/writeabl/writeable/
02:16:02 <timeless> s/th reight/the right/
02:16:10 <webapp-projects> MJS: callback version with readable stream, if impl. is well optimised you have produced an identity stream, and can be just as efficient as writng to an underlying writeable to which readable is being copied.\
02:16:32 <webapp-projects> ... in theory writing to an identity pair should be as effiencnt as wwriting directly to a writeable,
02:17:00 <webapp-projects> Jake: Travis' point could be a security iffue if you send different info to each point along the redirrect chain you could use that to expliore
02:17:00 <webapp-projects> s/Jake/martin
02:17:30 <webapp-projects> ... don't like that. You post somethign that will get redirected, and post something different each time it gets bounced to track its path ...
02:17:40 <timeless> s/syugesting/suggesting/
02:17:49 <webapp-projects> ... haven't come up with an attack through that, but if we are trying to make redirect uninspectable, this breaks that.
02:17:57 <timeless> s/bofy property/body property
02:18:06 <webapp-projects> AVK: security teams would need to consider if that is acceptable. If not we are back to teeing or only first request works...
02:18:12 <timeless> s/medai capture/media capture/
02:18:25 <timeless> s/THey/They
02:18:27 <webapp-projects> TL: if it is a readable stream the impl could ensure that the stream has to be identical and block extra state.
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02:19:09 <webapp-projects> JS: If we we create streams, and if redirect happens on request, and that is called inservice worker and that chain should be caught in service worker?
02:19:28 <falken> s/JS/yhirano/
02:19:42 <webapp-projects> AVK: Service worker doesn't ge access to redirects. ONly if request was made with redirect mode manual, then worker doesn't get the destination, and subsequent requests don't go to the service worker.
02:19:45 <timeless> s/..JS/... JS/
02:20:01 <webapp-projects> ... can generate a redirect, but can't trap one out of the network.
02:20:05 <timeless> s/seems tehre/seems there/
02:20:23 <webapp-projects> ... has to be same origin. opaque redirect design for browser navigation.
02:20:34 <timeless> s/ahving/having/
02:20:43 <timeless> s/memry/memory
02:20:53 <timeless> s/there si a/there is a/
02:20:56 <webapp-projects> ... click on a and service worker moves it to b, and passes that to the page and the browser can poke inside and make the requst that it wanted. Only in same origin case though.
02:21:56 <timeless> s/th primary/the primary
02:21:57 <webapp-projects> AVK: seems based on this, for requsts using a readable stream as input wher we keep teeing would be fine, a callback approach would be interesting to investigae but might collapse in security review. with overloading you can find the callback - we can make that work.
02:22:05 <timeless> s/ignoting/ignoring/
02:22:14 <webapp-projects> ... maybe special parameter for the callbaclk...
02:22:15 <timeless> s/redicrects/redirects/
02:22:17 <webapp-projects> ... what is teh problem with making request.body work - I goret.
02:22:32 <dom> s/goret/forget/
02:22:36 <timeless> s/reditrects/redirects/
02:22:39 <dom> s/teh/the/
02:22:42 <webapp-projects> JS: One, redirect issue, and it is not well-aligned with current fetch spec.
02:22:47 <webapp-projects> ... need to modify fetch algorithm, and didn't want to do that.
02:22:48 <dom> s/callbaclk/callback/
02:22:58 <timeless> s/reditrect or ultipple/redirect or multipple
02:23:07 <webapp-projects> AVK: how does it relate to redirect, reading request.body ?
02:23:10 <timeless> s/howmany/how many
02:23:25 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:23:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:23:25 <webapp-projects> ... think you only get that if you pass in custom stream to a request
02:23:53 <webapp-projects> JS: maybe, but if we use the bosy.request and we use JS treams generally, we cannot assume that body is  replyaable
02:24:10 <falken> "JS" above is Yutaka Hirano (yhirano)
02:24:18 <webapp-projects> MT: so if we can read request body from service worker we need a way to recreata a stream or tee it. Think safest think is to automaticeally tee at starting point.
02:24:22 <timeless> s/It oulwd/It would/
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02:24:37 <webapp-projects> ... return the automatic tee. Wy own't that work?
02:24:37 <webapp-projects> Jake: Why instead of clone?
02:24:40 <webapp-projects> s/Jake/AR/
02:24:51 <timeless> s/writeabel/writeable/
02:24:56 <webapp-projects> MT": discussin what a clone is in implementation - it would be a tee.
02:25:00 <webapp-projects> ... or mjs suggested a stream factory insterad of the stream.
02:25:03 <timeless> s/writng/writing
02:25:05 <webapp-projects> ... same machinery
02:25:13 <timeless> s/iffue/issue
02:25:26 <timeless> s/somethign/something
02:25:27 <webapp-projects> MJS: seems weird that a requst is a body instead of having a boy. Why is that?
02:25:38 <webapp-projects> AVK: Body mixin is a set of utilities on a requst
02:25:48 <dom> s/requst/request/
02:25:50 <webapp-projects> MJS: Body isn't being a body it is methods you have if you have a body?
02:25:51 <webapp-projects> MJA. hmmmm
02:25:52 <webapp-projects> AVK: yeah
02:26:08 <timeless> s/requst/request
02:26:10 <webapp-projects> AVK: mixins are useful, call it waht you want - hasbody?
02:26:19 <timeless> s/requst/request
02:26:32 <timeless> s/wher we/where we
02:26:43 <timeless> s/investigae/investigate
02:26:56 <webapp-projects> MJS: looking at methods, it seems like ti would make sense to have a body rather than be a body. request.JSON doesn't seem to express "getting the body as JSON" request.body.JSON seems to make more sense
02:27:14 <timeless> s/ti would/it would/
02:27:14 <webapp-projects> AVK: we havd longer names and people don't like them so we went for shorter.
02:27:14 <webapp-projects> ... considered a tier of object but that brings lifecycle issues.
02:27:33 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
02:27:38 <webapp-projects> ... wanted to use body object for an actual stream, rather than being a pie of helper methods
02:27:43 <webapp-projects> MJS: Seems weird for readability.
02:27:58 <webapp-projects> ... response.text - what wil that give, status and body, or what? Seems a bit unintuitive.
02:28:17 <webapp-projects> ... think brevity will imit this to experts and others will find it hard
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02:28:31 <timeless> s/repros/repositories/
02:28:51 <timeless> s/Presetnt/Present
02:28:58 <webapp-projects> JS: We will have arbitrary consumers, so consuming and generating stream will have a shorthand for consuming streams and generating data. So keeping nmaes short is important
02:29:20 <webapp-projects> ... like stream consumers rather than heading and response.
02:29:49 <webapp-projects> MJS: if you come back with body stream and consume that makes sense but these are not on the stream they are on teh requst or response and seems weirtd
02:29:54 <webapp-projects> Jake: XHR does this - there is precendent
02:30:09 <webapp-projects> EOC: is that a good precedent?
02:30:09 <webapp-projects> MJS: No.
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02:30:28 <webapp-projects> MT: Think basic idea could be a readable stream has all the body mixin attrivbutes
02:30:32 <webapp-projects> MJS: That would be amuch more readable API...
02:30:42 <webapp-projects> ... .body produces that stream
02:30:50 <webapp-projects> AVK: We went there to start and decided not to go there
02:31:12 <webapp-projects> MJS: if there is a way to get a readable stream doesn't it make sense to have the helper methods on that stream?
02:31:28 <webapp-projects> Jake: we didn't know if it would be possible to have it taht way when we strated.
02:31:52 <timeless> s/WePlanning/JinTae Yu, WePlanet/
02:31:52 <webapp-projects> ... either we have requst.JSON or requst.body, or requst.body.JSON and request.body.stream
02:31:55 <webapp-projects> MJS: Does that reasonaing still apply?
02:32:05 <timeless> s/weplanet//
02:32:31 <webapp-projects> AR: We have multiple shipping implementations of fetch., Don't think there is opposition to figuring out whether streams should have those methods. removing existing mthods on response seem sorthogonals
02:33:02 <webapp-projects> Avk: think domonic was opposed to having helper methods on teh stream stuff.
02:33:02 <webapp-projects> s/mon/men
02:33:13 <dcooney> *domenic
02:33:16 <webapp-projects> ... so we decided to put themon requst response. should be clear from context what these are for.
02:33:20 <timeless> s/UUU/yuwei/
02:33:32 <timeless> s/USQ/Yu Wei/
02:33:32 <webapp-projects> ... you see around teh code what is going on when you use the methods...
02:33:32 <webapp-projects> ... thgink it should be clear.
02:33:33 <adrianba> s/domonic/domenic/
02:33:38 <webapp-projects> MJS: ot convinced names are good, convinced they are shipping.
02:33:46 <timeless> s/sodden/sudden/
02:33:51 <anssik> s/ont/not/
02:33:58 <webapp-projects> TL: any future reason to be able to get the rest of the text?
02:34:03 <webapp-projects> ... that would be a problem.
02:34:05 <hober> s/ot/not/
02:34:06 <anssik> s/ot/not/
02:34:22 <webapp-projects> Jake: you might want a serialisation to put ito a dB
02:34:23 <webapp-projects> MJS: you could make thhe names go the other way, mint response.headerText.
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02:34:38 <webapp-projects> AVK: would not be prmoisey things.
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02:34:57 <timeless> s/Masayuki: IME/Masayuki: Masayuki Nakano, IME/
02:35:17 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:35:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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02:50:40 <timeless> scribe: timeless
02:50:42 <timeless> topic: Find Text API
02:50:58 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
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02:51:07 <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
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02:51:13 <fsasaki> present+ fsasaki
02:51:20 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
02:51:22 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
02:51:26 <clapierre> Present+ Charles_LaPierre
02:51:27 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
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02:51:37 <timeless> s/Mbile/Mobile
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02:51:47 <rhiaro_> present+ rhiaro
02:51:48 <David_clarke> present+ David_clarke
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02:52:03 <timeless> shepazu: Doug Sheppers, W3C, Spec Editor
02:52:09 <timeless> ... this is the Find Text API
02:52:15 <timeless> [ Projected, URL? ]
02:52:28 <rhiaro_> w3.org/TR/findtext
02:52:31 <timeless> shepazu: we take a JSON object
02:52:41 <azaroth> URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/findtext/
02:52:46 <timeless> ... create a findText object, set parameters of what you want to find
02:52:49 <timeless> ... and execute the search
02:52:59 <timeless> ... we have search() -- incremental, and searchAll() -- find all at once
02:53:22 <timeless> ... you can search for Text (string), prefix+suffix (arbitrary number of characters before/after text)
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02:53:43 <timeless> ... e.g. if you're searching in a poem/song that has repetition, you might ask for a prefix to disambiguate
02:53:46 <timeless> ... i'll show an example
02:54:14 <timeless> ... here we have a poem
02:54:20 <timeless> ... "rage rage against the dying of the light"
02:54:24 <timeless> ... repeated several times
02:54:33 <azaroth> Discussing example 1: http://w3c.github.io/findtext/#example-1
02:54:34 <timeless> s/rage rage/Rage, rage/
02:54:41 <timeless> ... I want to find the second time
02:55:02 <timeless> ... If I want to find ... a prefix might be "Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,"
02:55:15 <timeless> ... or "Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,"
02:55:22 <timeless> ... these disambiguate
02:55:26 <timeless> ... they're not part of the selection
02:55:40 <timeless> ... then, there's a .scope, it sets the scope to be within that element
02:56:02 <timeless> ... this could limit the search to an editing interface, excluding the chrome of your app
02:56:15 <timeless> ... then you have the traditional options that you'd have in a find text dialog
02:56:29 <timeless> ... case folding, whole word, wrap
02:56:43 <timeless> ... if I search for "godel" it could find "Gödel"
02:57:14 <timeless> ... then there's fuzzy matching
02:57:21 <timeless> ... to handle a document that has changed
02:57:26 <timeless> chaals: does this find rendered text?
02:57:35 <timeless> ... does it collapse dom node boundaries?
02:57:38 <timeless> shepazu: yes
02:57:44 <timeless> ... first, it collapses the .scope down
02:57:57 <timeless> ... then it does unicode normalization/case folding
02:58:05 <timeless> chaals: so you can't find markup?
02:58:15 <timeless> shepazu: correct, it doesn't find markup,
02:58:24 <timeless> ... and it returns a DOMRange of the selection
02:58:38 <timeless> ... matching the search
02:58:49 <timeless> shepazu: if you have SVG where things are randomly in the document
02:58:57 <timeless> ... where you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
02:59:09 <timeless> s/shepazu/chaals/
02:59:23 <timeless> shepazu: if you use CSS to reorder how things are, then your document won't be as searchable
02:59:29 <timeless> ... it doesn't matter how it's ordered
02:59:44 <timeless> ... presumably you select some text (to select the text to seek)
02:59:48 <timeless> ... and search for that
02:59:54 <timeless> chaals: the other case is HTML Tables
03:00:07 <timeless> shepazu: yes, that's an interesting case, and we should have an issue for it
03:00:21 <timeless> ... if you want to select a column, and how you serialize that is an open issue
03:00:30 <timeless> chaals: it comes up where you have multirange selection
03:00:40 <timeless> ... how many people have multirange selection
03:00:47 <timeless> ... JS Editors use multirange selection
03:00:55 <timeless> shepazu: the point of my bringing this to this WG
03:01:01 <timeless> ... it was originally in Web Apps
03:01:08 <timeless> ... we talked about it at TPAC last year
03:01:19 <timeless> ... it was just published recently under Web Annotation and Web Platform
03:01:24 <timeless> ... every browser has Find in Page
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03:01:36 <timeless> ... we're looking for Browser vendors to talk to us about how we can improve this
03:01:40 <timeless> ... and how we can get this implemented
03:01:46 <timeless> ... and do it in a performant way
03:01:53 <timeless> Travis: I see you have a search algorithm
03:02:00 <timeless> shepazu: which is terrible by the way
03:02:12 <timeless> Travis: do you describe how to transform the DOM Tree into searchable text?
03:02:18 <timeless> ... or is that left up to the implementations?
03:02:33 <timeless> shepazu: in the spec, I say you serialize it according to .innerHTML from DOM4
03:02:46 <timeless> ... but I got feedback that there are other ways to serialize that might be better for search
03:02:47 <adrianba> q?
03:02:54 <timeless> ... I can't remember what they suggested
03:03:01 <timeless> ... the question of serialization might be another spec
03:03:05 <mjs> q+
03:03:14 <timeless> Travis: in the Incubator WG, they started work on a spec for .innerText
03:03:21 <timeless> ... "serialize text how it shows up on the screen"
03:03:29 <timeless> shepazu: which might include css text
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03:03:46 <timeless> Travis: and as a precond, we might need a Spec for how to go from a Tree into a linear set
03:03:51 <timeless> ... people might need that
03:03:58 <timeless> ... I think there's room to layer on top of that
03:04:05 <timeless> shepazu: I'm happy to help other specs
03:04:12 <timeless> ... I'd like to layer on some other set of specs
03:04:17 <timeless> Travis: just bringing that up
03:04:28 <timeless> ... if you don't have that, you'll have trouble w/ interop
03:04:34 <adrianba> ack next
03:04:37 <timeless> mjs: looking at this quickly
03:04:45 <timeless> ... some possibly overly basic questions
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03:04:57 <timeless> ... what is expected to implement the findText interface?
03:05:03 <timeless> ... is this on Window, or Document?
03:05:13 <timeless> shepazu: I expect Document, but I don't know where it best lives
03:05:22 <timeless> mjs: I see findText() is an EventTarget
03:05:27 <timeless> ... is that because it dispatches events?
03:05:38 <timeless> shepazu: that's probably my bad specing, it evolved
03:05:44 <timeless> ... it should be Promise() based
03:06:11 <timeless> mjs: for available params, I think
03:06:20 <timeless> q+ timeless for MS Word
03:06:28 <timeless> ... I've never seen something so complicated
03:06:39 <timeless> ... does anyone actually want to use all of these options?
03:06:49 <adrianba> q?
03:07:02 <timeless> shepazu: this isn't exclusively for the Find Text dialog
03:07:09 <timeless> ... it's also for Annotation
03:07:30 <timeless> ... where you want to select something, pass the url to a friend so that the friend can find it again
03:07:42 <timeless> mjs: that sort of makes sense
03:07:54 <timeless> ... although to sort of handle that UC, I think you need a way to serialize that
03:07:59 <timeless> shepazu: that's a different spec
03:08:24 <timeless> mjs: edit distance is tricky, I don't think browsers have that concept
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03:08:41 <timeless> ... generally, I think RegExp might be enough, expressing some of these might be tricky with RegExp
03:08:51 <timeless> ... case insensitivity, prefix, suffix, might be
03:08:58 <timeless> shepazu: I'd love to do this with RegExp
03:09:07 <timeless> ... but there's a matter of User Friendliness
03:09:35 <timeless> s/Annotation/Annotation (Robust Anchoring)/
03:09:52 <timeless> chaals: for Robust Anchoring, You need a serialization you can pass around
03:10:06 <timeless> ... these seem to be a set of helper methods, you pick the ones you like, and leave out the others
03:10:16 <timeless> ... most of these could map down to RegExp, but most people can't do that
03:10:26 <timeless> ... this sits on tap, implementation might drop down to RegExp
03:10:38 <azaroth> Re Robust Anchoring, it's #6 in our charter: http://www.w3.org/annotation/charter/
03:10:40 <timeless> mjs: seems like this API is great and optimized for Robust Anchoring
03:10:45 <timeless> ... but crappy for Find In Page
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03:10:57 <timeless> shepazu: number of params isn't interesting, you include or don't include
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03:11:10 <timeless> mjs: having a struct w/ dozens of params makes an API hard to understand
03:11:10 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
03:11:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html adrianba
03:11:16 <timeless> ... find RegExp or find WildCard
03:11:21 <timeless> ... exists in Find in Page
03:11:28 <paulc> There are LOTS of other search features for full-text search.  For a language example see in a W3C spec see http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-xpath-full-text-10-20110317/
03:11:28 <timeless> ... from the narrow perspective
03:11:50 <timeless> ... it has a bunch of things I haven't seen, and is missing some I expect
03:11:55 <timeless> ... I see overlap
03:12:13 <timeless> shepazu: I'd love to consider it
03:12:37 <timeless> ... but  couple of comments aren't enough
03:12:41 <adrianba> q?
03:12:48 <timeless> ... could you give suggestions
03:13:00 <timeless> mjs: unsigned cursor, flat numeric isn't the best way to do it
03:13:07 <timeless> ... Node + offset would be better
03:13:20 <timeless> ... if the document has changed in any way, then you have to rewalk the document
03:13:20 <paulc> For more wildcard options see http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-xpath-full-text-10-20110317/#ftwildcardoption
03:13:31 <timeless> ... If you have a Node + offset, you can do it efficiently
03:13:50 <timeless> mjs: is this position in the document?
03:13:56 <timeless> ... it's in the logically serialized document
03:14:15 <timeless> ... the way a browser would implement this is probably to implement the algorithm through the document
03:14:18 <timeless> ... instead of serializing
03:14:26 <timeless> ... an index into that would be more complicated
03:14:49 <timeless> shepazu: one problem w/ how browsers do search is that you can't find text across boundaries
03:14:54 <timeless> ... because of that optimization
03:15:02 <timeless> mjs: I don't think the thing
03:15:19 <timeless> mjs: representing your current search start position doesn't affect the algorithm used for matching
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03:15:50 <Josh_Soref> -> http://i.stack.imgur.com/MeGdg.png MS Find dialog (some app)
03:16:11 <timeless> mjs: there's no way that browsers will implement find text that requires fully serializing a document
03:16:17 <timeless> ... you don't need to serialize the whole text
03:16:30 <timeless> ... you just need your algorithm to not stop when it hits boundaries
03:16:43 <timeless> shepazu: I'm happy to do this
03:17:05 <timeless> shepazu: I'm doing this because people are using JS APIs to do searches
03:17:11 <timeless> ... they needed a cursor to do some operations
03:17:13 <azaroth> q+ for time check
03:17:18 <adrianba> q?
03:17:19 <timeless> mjs: having a representation makes sense
03:17:29 <timeless> ... doing Range + offset is better
03:17:38 <timeless> ... instead of worrying about Mutations w/ flat number
03:17:45 <timeless> shepazu: if that's what you suggest, that's fine
03:17:46 <azaroth> q-
03:19:32 <adrianba> q?
03:19:35 <fsasaki> +1 to paulc for mentioning the xpath full text wildcard options, this is something one may want to look at for background infos
03:19:37 <adrianba> ack next
03:19:38 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to discuss MS Word
03:19:57 <xiaoqian> zakim, q?
03:19:57 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
03:20:40 <xiaoqian> Doug: look forward to more feedback
03:21:40 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:21:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian
03:21:55 <timeless> i/forward/Josh_Soref: The word dialog (url above) has the serialization (sounds like), word forms (not even offered), regular expressions and captures are under "special"
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03:22:28 <timeless> s/xiaoqian/timeless/
03:22:34 <timeless> [ Lunch ]
03:22:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian
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04:16:40 <webapps-projects> Topic: Streams and fetch
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04:17:40 <webapps-projects> [note for cleaning minutes. JS as quoted on this topic was really YT]
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04:18:08 <webapps-projects> csribeNick: webapps-projects
04:18:53 <webapps-projects> s/csribeNick: webapps-projects//
04:19:00 <webapps-projects> scribeNick: webapps-projects
04:22:16 <falken> Scribe: falken
04:22:54 <falken> AvK: Before the break, we discussed streams and requests. We didn't get to the topic from Yukata about passing the stream to the response
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04:23:07 <falken> ... Takeshi wanted to discuss general issues about streams
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04:23:34 <falken> ... let's do streams and response first. If we make the body the first argument, if that becomes a readable stream it seems straightfoward
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04:24:09 <falken> yhirano: adding the readablestream to the body... does anyone have concerns
04:24:48 <falken> AvK: only one way to clone a response at the moment, response.clone() that already does a tee
04:25:08 <falken> MJS: do custom implementable streams have a way to do tee. what does generic operation tee do?
04:25:18 <falken> AvK: if the stream has been tampered with clone will fail
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04:25:31 <falken> MJS: So you can't replay a body?
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04:25:41 <falken> ... seems like design flaw
04:25:49 <falken> Jake: but we want these responses to be like a 3 GB video
04:25:55 <falken> MJS: oh you're talking about responses
04:26:02 <falken> AvK: but for requests I don't understand either what you mean
04:26:11 <falken> MJS: sorry I thought we're talking about requests
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04:27:04 <falken> MJS: for requests, whatever mechanism there is to custom implement your own read stream.... a common case is using the identiy stream thing to have a writable and reasable stream
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04:27:10 <falken> ... so you tee it before anyone has read from it
04:27:30 <falken> ... might have buffered already from write... you read from the copy does this mean that stream has to indefinitely buffer that idenitify stream now needs infinite buffering?
04:27:42 <falken> ... because no one is ever reading from the readable stream, they're always reading from the clone?
04:28:05 <falken> ... the only generic way to make tee is work is to buffer everything forever
04:28:16 <falken> JY: security question of streamfactory
04:28:24 <falken> AvK: maybe we can have both for requests?
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04:28:48 <falken> MJS: if you don't use identity stream... does custom stream have a hook for implementing tee?
04:28:52 <falken> JY: No
04:28:56 <falken> AvK: Not clear yet
04:29:04 <falken> JY: spec has start, pull, and cancel
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04:29:09 <jyasskin> JY: https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rs-constructor
04:29:15 <falken> MJS: if someone teed your stream someone does buferring for you?
04:29:18 <falken> Jake: Yes
04:29:25 <falken> JY: Looks like a hole in ReadableStream
04:29:28 <falken> Jake: WHy
04:29:54 <falken> MJS: IF you're producing a readablestream with 10 files, when someone tees you...
04:30:02 <webapps-projects> webapps-projects has changed the topic to: 
04:30:19 <falken> AvK: input stream creates out 1 and out 2, input is locked
04:30:26 <falken> JY: how does that interact with underlying source
04:30:43 <falken> YH: each pulls data from underlying source and dupes data and pushes them to branches
04:30:52 <falken> AvK: looking at spec... tee is already in there
04:30:57 <falken> ... it's a concept implemented in readablestream
04:31:15 <falken> Jake: the spec gives you that the objects coming out are the same objects
04:31:32 <falken> Martin: if you tee, the tee operation says you kill the stream that you teed... create two new streams and lock the original
04:31:36 <falken> ... so same object doesn't work
04:31:45 <falken> YH: we're talking about Each chunk in stream
04:31:58 <falken> MJS: pretty harsh because it requires buffering from everywhere
04:32:13 <falken> ... list of 10 file names I will read from series and produce the data
04:32:22 <falken> ... have to buffer forever if someone is producing from one side of the tee
04:32:36 <webapps-projects> webapps-projects has changed the topic to: web platform f2f at TPAC: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/October2015Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_October_27
04:32:39 <falken> ... since you're preemptively teeing before you know there's a redirect
04:32:52 <falken> AvK: itd be useful to have that too, to preserve memory
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04:33:07 <falken> AvK: second instance for the stream, it'd be great if UA doesn't create a third instance because it might get a redirect
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04:33:14 <falken> ... having to dupe only once is better for memory
04:33:29 <falken> ... the simplest thing to add is the simple request accepts a radable stream
04:33:36 <falken> ... later have a new feature with body factory that calls that thing
04:33:55 <falken> MJS: you can solve this in streams spec but need an optional hook to produce the two streams when it's teed
04:34:20 <falken> ... assuming those spec changes are acceptable
04:34:38 <falken> Jake: how about allow users to override the tee method?
04:34:49 <falken> ... if the developer says my stream.tee = whatever
04:34:59 <falken> ... as long as there are two streams there you've got a tee operation
04:35:04 <jyasskin> Maybe https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#teereadablestream-pull-function
04:35:06 <falken> MJS: can someone drop a URL for relevant spec
04:35:10 <mt_____> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rs-tee
04:35:25 <falken> AvK: generally we avoid that pattern... but seems ok
04:35:30 <tyoshino> and the details https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#tee-readable-stream
04:35:32 <falken> Jake: it could be in the constructor...
04:35:42 <falken> AvK: you'd invoke it for each new redirect presumably
04:35:59 <falken> AvK: queue some task, then do some dance, either method invocation or callback
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04:36:19 <falken> JY: we need tee operation on readablestream. if the security issue really is a problem maybe the platform has to do it rather than platform
04:36:34 <falken> s/rather than platform/rather than JS/
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04:37:31 <falken> JY: convenience vs efficiency tradeoff is normal for developers so we can give them both options
04:37:37 <falken> YH: can we avoid infinite buffering?
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04:38:12 <falken> JY: if you create a redablestream using undlerying source ctor argument, nothing has to buffer stuff. but if you use identity transofmration then it has to buffer data. it'll be less efficient
04:38:22 <falken> hober: If there's an explainer document it would be good
04:38:29 <falken> Jake: How does underlying source help?
04:38:37 <falken> JY: dev can specifiy a tee operation
04:38:50 <falken> MJS: yes they can tee in whatever way is most efficient
04:38:56 <falken> hober: sounds like everyone likes this
04:39:01 <falken> JY: domenic?
04:39:15 <falken> Martin: make sure that's written down
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04:39:23 <falken> ... new primitive operation for tee
04:39:32 <falken> AvK: so basically make tee implementable?
04:39:37 <mt_____> Yes
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04:39:44 <jyasskin> JY: ReadableStream's underlyingSource argument should grow a new "tee" method.
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04:39:46 <falken> ... if we want that in fetch we must figure out if we actually can.
04:39:59 <falken> Jake: fetch might throw?
04:40:06 <falken> Martin: fetch has a choice. can do infinite buffering as necessary
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04:40:17 <falken> ... i don't see an inherent problem with infinite bufferring
04:40:25 <falken> AvK: instead of teeing fetch can pipe and tee on the output of that
04:40:28 <falken> ... because that would not be exposed
04:40:34 <falken> ... to avoid having to call into javascript
04:41:06 <falken> AvK: So we need to solve this before we add readablestream to response
04:41:12 <mt_____> And, if there are security concerns with accessing jsimplemented tee(), then the browser would clone itself and avoid the js-tee()
04:41:16 <falken> ... because it affects how response with clone would behave
04:41:26 <falken> ... response.clone calls back to js which it currently does not
04:41:29 <falken> ... doesn't sem problematic
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04:42:32 <falken> YH: we discussed whether we allow infinite buffering when reading from buffer 1 is much faster than reding from buffer 2. so introduced some kind of different buffer managment such as stop reading from the ?? one. so that seems  like a streams problem. do you plan to revisit the rpoblem?
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04:42:58 <falken> Martin: i think the conclusion was in absence of something that the JS had implemented for tee especially we would accept that if someone is forced to tee a stream the default impl would be to infinntely buffer
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04:43:18 <falken> YH: if stream provider wants, we should allow provider to provide another kind of policy?
04:43:20 <falken> Martin: Yes
04:43:49 <falken> YH: if that is provided in stream spec, it doesn't break fetch integration?
04:43:59 <falken> ... maybe we can provide such an option
04:44:17 <falken> Martin: the concern I see potentially is if you have a JS implemented tee is the stream might be originated from a worker
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04:44:30 <falken> ... so having a sync clone might be a problem
04:44:35 <falken> ... but streams are inherently async
04:44:49 <falken> AvK: once you cross that boundary objects also need to cross the boundary
04:45:16 <falken> Jake: on response cloning thing I already see workers calling .clone() on each use which leaves the original unconsumed
04:45:23 <falken> ... so the infintte buffer thing works well there
04:45:29 <falken> ... because it gets locked until gc
04:45:36 <falken> AvK: we do need to change streams spec first
04:45:39 <falken> ... to include this tee method
04:46:03 <falken> ... otherwise if you pass a redablestream to a response and invoke clone, we'd need to define what happens if there's no tee operation defined
04:46:09 <falken> Jake: we know the default tee. it's buffer
04:46:11 <falken> Martin: yes that's fine
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04:46:52 <falken> AvK: another concern passing to response... we need to to figure out if we'll have readablebytestream or not
04:46:56 <falken> ... because IDL does type checks
04:47:04 <falken> ... it'lll change from readablestream to readablebytestream
04:47:24 <falken> YH: problem is that when calling response.clone it will allow an infintie buffering right?
04:47:27 <falken> AvK: No
04:47:43 <falken> ... I was just thinking about potential show stoppers for when you do new response and pass in a readablestream
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04:47:51 <falken> ... we can add custom teeing later
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04:48:05 <falken> ... but later if we want readablebyte instances... that's a separate API
04:48:18 <falken> YH: domenic talked about merging readablestream and readbablebytestream once
04:48:27 <falken> TY: it's ongoing
04:48:36 <falken> ... trying to refactor each class and find out how much overlap there is
04:49:04 <falken> ... it might take some more work to figure out
04:49:25 <falken> Martin: this seems to fit well with json.text
04:49:48 <falken> ... can explain everything in terms of streams
04:50:00 <falken> AvK: they are explained. but they don't tee. they consume the stream and make the object useless
04:50:32 <falken> ... if you invoke .text it consumed the stream. but if you clone you only get the clone. cloning happens if you invoke .clone() or during the request in fetching
04:50:38 <falken> Martin: sounds good
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04:50:52 <falken> AvK: Move on to new topic about streams
04:51:01 <falken> TY: want feedback on readablebytestream design
04:51:08 <falken> ... not yet finished
04:51:11 <falken> ... no spec text
04:51:21 <jeff> jeff has joined #webapps
04:51:22 <falken> ... but streams repository has reference impl
04:51:29 <tyoshino> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/reference-implementation/lib/readable-byte-stream.js
04:51:32 <falken> ... will paste url to irc
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04:51:44 <falken> ... currently just have code
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04:51:51 <falken> ... take a look at method names
04:51:57 <falken> ... readablebytestream... controller...
04:52:06 <falken> hober: difference between readablestream and readablebytestream?
04:52:51 <falken> TY: BYOB
04:52:55 <falken> ... bring your own buffer
04:53:03 <falken> AvK: streams themselves are generic. they hold any value.
04:53:06 <MikeSmith> s/hober: /MJS: /
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04:54:01 <falken> TY: original goal of streams was hold anything. before we had the byte specific one. readablestream as currently implemented as stream of arraybuffer
04:54:48 <falken> YH: readablestream has minimal interface. we can add properties to readablebytestream
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04:54:58 <falken> TY: extended version of readablestream for bytes is readablebytestream
04:55:06 <falken> MJS: is readablebytestream a subclass?
04:55:12 <falken> YH: parallel object
04:55:22 <falken> MJS: kind of lame to have two abstractions of streams
04:55:28 <falken> MJS: bytes are the common case
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04:55:56 <falken> ... does non-byte readablestream even have a use case
04:56:24 <falken> Jake: agreed, but disagree common case is bytes. in node you see a lot of objects as streams. text stream
04:56:41 <falken> AvK: they do implement the same interface though.
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04:57:09 <jyasskin> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rbs-class has both getByobReader() and getReader()
04:57:13 <falken> MJS: does readablebytestream have a convenience if you know you don't want bytes
04:57:24 <falken> Jake: it has both getreader and getbyobreader
04:57:33 <jyasskin> s/Jake/JY/
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04:58:35 <falken> TY: we originally had sync version of read interface last year
04:58:47 <falken> ... now read returns a promise
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04:59:49 <falken> MJS: limiting readablebytestream to bytes may be too limiting, for example if you know there's floats it'd be more efficient to use float buffer
04:59:55 <falken> ... useful for each type to have a type of stream
05:00:08 <falken> AvK: readabletypedarraystream
05:00:16 <falken> TY: this implementation is designed to handle typed arrays correctly
05:00:28 <falken> ... it already works
05:00:34 <falken> AvK: so it just needs a different name
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05:00:46 <falken> MJS: maybe more productive to discuss this with a spec
05:00:50 <falken> ... instead of reading the code
05:01:02 <falken> ... almost every question I have is answered by the code but not enough time to read in 15 minutes
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05:01:13 <falken> break time
05:01:49 <falken> chaals: what's the next step for this
05:02:24 <falken> hober: So, mayking the tee changes is one AI. and another AI is making the spec about typed streams
05:02:38 <falken> Martin: i'm filing an issue now
05:02:45 <falken> chaals: two minute wrapup?
05:03:12 <falken> AvK: as far as streams integration into fetch, we have a good iddea of accepting readablestream everywhere for requwest and response
05:03:24 <falken> ... maybe not all at once, mostly up to YH who is writing the spec text
05:03:29 <falken> ... look into making teeing pluggable
05:03:43 <falken> ... that's optional but needs to implemented in JS and we need to figure out if it's secure if invoked from the fetch layer
05:03:47 <falken> ... for example redirects
05:03:55 <falken> ... and......
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05:04:08 <falken> ... then lastly there's some work to do in straems spec to around readablebyte stream
05:04:22 <falken> ... does it need to exist? and if so it needs to be renamed so it's clear it's generic and applies to typed arrays
05:04:36 <falken> ... typedarray or arraybuffer...? more generic than it is now
05:04:45 <falken> MJS: and if it can be a subclass
05:05:05 <falken> hober: question about summary
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05:05:14 <falken> ... do we have agreement that it is possible to do subclass?
05:05:18 <falken> AvK: I think so
05:05:23 <falken> ... I don't know why it is not now
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05:05:31 <falken> chaals: ok we have a summary now
05:05:54 <Justin_> Justin_ has joined #webapps
05:06:19 <falken> end of session
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05:26:57 <webapps-projects>  Topic: aria joint meeting
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05:28:30 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
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05:28:50 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
05:29:17 <LJWatson> RS: Want to talk about accessibility in Web Components, and what you need us to address.
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05:29:53 <LJWatson> Also a proposal for a new accessibility API.
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05:30:00 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
05:30:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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05:30:12 <LJWatson> CMN: Most Web Comps people will be here tomorrow.
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05:31:13 <LJWatson> ...If you construct new things in Web Comps, in the way we've done with HTML + JS in the past, we need to be able to add accessibility.
05:31:24 <LJWatson> ... We created ARIA to do this in HTML.
05:31:51 <LJWatson> ... How do we do that in Web Comps? Think it's unsolved.
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05:32:03 <LJWatson> MS: Think there are three aspects to this.
05:32:29 <LJWatson> ... ARIA has historically focused on representing the state of controls so an Assistive Technology (AT) can convey to a user.
05:32:38 <LJWatson> ... This should work in Web Comps.
05:32:46 <LJWatson> ... But there are two limitations.
05:32:57 <LJWatson> ... People may make controls that don't match existing HTML/ARIA semantics.
05:33:28 <LJWatson> ... Second is how do we interact and manipulate it?
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05:33:54 <LJWatson> ... On touch screen - the fact something is keyboard accessible is no help.
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05:34:21 <LJWatson> ... ARIA has no way to know what operations are available, or how to effect those operations.
05:35:06 <LJWatson> RS: We're looking at ARIA 2.0.
05:35:27 <LJWatson> ... We need a device independent interaction layer/API. May not be part of ARIA.
05:36:03 <LJWatson> ... We want to know what requirements you have for this.
05:37:09 <LJWatson> Hober: Use cases from IndieUI will fall out of hits.
05:37:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html MichaelC
05:37:36 <LJWatson> Cyns: One thing we're looking at is scripted accessibility - WAPA.
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05:39:03 <Josh_Soref> s/aria joint meeting/ARIA joint meeting/
05:39:08 <LJWatson> CMN: There is a related piece of work from the HTML A11y TF. How do you do this with basic markup?
05:39:12 <kurosawa> APIs which cyns mentioned are https://github.com/cyns/wapa/blob/master/ScriptAccessibility.md and https://wicg.github.io/a11yapi/, aren't they
05:39:38 <LJWatson> ... WAPA is like the React.js way of device independence and not putting everything in the markup.
05:39:45 <timeless> s/Also a proposal for a new accessibility API./... Also a proposal for a new accessibility API./
05:39:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
05:39:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
05:40:07 <LJWatson> ... There are different threads that tie into the point Maciej made - there will be new components.
05:40:55 <timeless> s/of hits/of this/
05:41:10 <cyns> cyns has joined #webapps
05:41:15 <LJWatson> ... How do we map things that are useful to one group of 800k users?
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05:42:03 <cyns> https://github.com/WICG/a11yapi
05:42:05 <LJWatson> ... There is work in the Editing TF and other places.
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05:42:21 <webapps-projects> q?
05:42:22 <LJWatson> ... we need to tie things together and find a solution, and that's the job of this WG.
05:42:36 <LJWatson> TOPIC: WAPA
05:42:55 <LJWatson> cyns: Web Accessibility Properties and Actions (WAPA). sometimes known as dynamic ARIA.
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05:43:15 <LJWatson> ... It makes the accessibility layer accessible through scripting.
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05:44:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://wicg.github.io/a11yapi/
05:44:11 <LJWatson> ... We heard from internalteams at MS that when making applications accessible, most of the app lived in JS, but to do accessibility they had to write HTML - which is expensive.
05:44:34 <LJWatson> ... There is a prototype for Edge.
05:44:56 <LJWatson> ... Mozilla is working on a JavaScript API that's similar.
05:45:21 <LJWatson> ... One problem is that there are three acc APIs on Widows, another on Linux, another on OSX etc.
05:45:32 <LJWatson> s/Widows/Windows/
05:46:08 <LJWatson> ... We want developers to be able to build things accessibility the same way they build everything else.
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05:46:36 <LJWatson> RS: The most expensive effort for accessibility is adding keyboard support.
05:46:47 <LJWatson> ... We want to make things as device independent as possible.
05:46:53 <LJWatson> ... This will also make code more portable.
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05:47:21 <cyns> https://github.com/cyns/wapa/blob/master/ScriptAccessibility.md
05:47:30 <LJWatson> ... So we want an interfac... It is costly to have to write to multiple acc APIs in different browsers and platforms.
05:47:51 <timeless> s/interfac/interface/
05:47:59 <LJWatson> ss/So we want an interfac... It is costly /It is costly/
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05:48:31 <LJWatson> yns: There have been failed attempts to create a single AP before. This is more about getting the different APIs to align.
05:48:39 <webapps-projects> -> http://xkcd.com/927 making a standard accessibility API
05:48:55 <LJWatson> Ted: Agree keyboard is one of the big areas.
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05:49:47 <cyns> that xkcd cartoon is exactly what we're trying to avoid. Rather than make a whole new one, we want to fill the gaps in overlap.
05:49:53 <LJWatson> CMN: The Editing TF is looking at standardising the way browsers handle editable/rich text content.
05:50:09 <LJWatson> ... Making it easier for JS developers to provide a quality UI.
05:50:36 <LJWatson> ... How do you ask for text to be bold? How do you indicate something should be a link?
05:51:02 <LJWatson> Ted: If you have a low level API to insert/replace text, you can talk about different operations.
05:51:31 <LJWatson> RS: There is a broad spectrum of APIs that are cross-platform.
05:52:21 <LJWatson> Ted: Think what we want is not making the platform acc APIs common, but where we can extend the Web API tat interacts with them.
05:52:57 <LJWatson> ... We want some kind of accessibility delegation.
05:53:10 <LJWatson> ... Think it's a good idea for someone to work on a proposal.
05:53:41 <LJWatson> Cyns: We're trying to avoid standards proliferation. we already have ARIA, and we're mapping it to different platforms.
05:53:56 <gsnedders> RRSAgent, draft minutes
05:53:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html gsnedders
05:54:11 <LJWatson> ... We're spinning up an incubation project in WICG and would really like to have people from Web Platform involved to help us solve things.
05:54:27 <LJWatson> CMN: Editing is a specific area.
05:55:05 <LJWatson> ... What we have with Web Comps is the ability to create anything.
05:55:24 <LJWatson> ... What we don't have is a way to make the interaction with a web Comp device independent.
05:55:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
05:55:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
05:55:48 <LJWatson> JW: Agree with Chaals.
05:56:10 <LJWatson> ... The IndieUI WG had IndieUI Events 1.0.
05:56:50 <LJWatson> ... The goal was to define device independent events, sometimes called intention events.
05:57:31 <LJWatson> ... Would be interested to know what concrete steps and relationships can be established within the new WGs to carry this work forward?
05:57:36 <webapps-projects> q+ chaals
05:57:49 <adrianba> ack next
05:58:16 <LJWatson> CMN: The WP WG has an enormous scope and a short charter, but if we find something we should be working on we can recharter.
05:58:21 <LJWatson> Q+
05:58:49 <LJWatson> ... We may think of other areas, as well as Editing, and look for the events.
05:59:39 <LJWatson> ... Or we can work on a new framework to describe what a component is and how someone might interact with it.
05:59:53 <LJWatson> ... That's harder and we're likely to get it wrong the first dozen times we try.
06:00:19 <LJWatson> ... We can do either thing, or both. What are the use cases we want to solve, and who's going to put in the effort to work on either one?
06:00:24 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
06:00:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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06:00:49 <adrianba> q?
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06:01:00 <LJWatson> cyns: If we choose to create a framework there are examples we can follow.
06:01:11 <LJWatson> RS: The work in WICG will be focusing on these issues.
06:01:28 <jeff> q+
06:01:42 <LJWatson> ... Two things have happened on the web that will break accessiility testing.
06:02:32 <LJWatson> ... CSS content injection is one problem, many ATs and test tools don't get to CSS generated content.
06:02:50 <LJWatson> ... Web Components.
06:03:23 <adrianba> ack next
06:03:39 <LJWatson> LW: We have the High Level User Interaction spec unde our charter,and this is the thing that will start in WICG.
06:03:42 <adrianba> ack next
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06:04:21 <LJWatson> Jeff: Would it make sense for someone, perhaps a chair of WP, to continually review whethere there is a need for participation from members of WP?
06:04:48 <LJWatson> CMN: suggest the other way around. If the ARIA WG wants help and doesn't have it, ping the WP co-chairs and ask.
06:05:16 <LJWatson> cyns: What we're looking for is people who understand editing, web Comps and whatever your other use cases are, plus browser vendors.
06:05:27 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
06:05:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
06:05:35 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Context information
06:05:44 <LJWatson> RS: Can do this trough JS APIs.
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06:06:04 <LJWatson> ... Getting environmental context informationfrom the browser, and Media Queries, two things tackling the same problem.
06:06:19 <LJWatson> ... We don't want two/three vehicles to do this.
06:06:29 <LJWatson> ... We want contextual information for people with disabilities.
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06:06:36 <LJWatson> ... What's the best vehicle to do this?
06:07:01 <LJWatson> ... We jdon't want to restrict how the information is generated, only to be able to access it.
06:07:29 <LJWatson> ... We'd like to talk to you about a consistent way of doing this.
06:07:44 <LJWatson> CMN: I work for a search engine company and we have lots of information about context.
06:07:58 <LJWatson> .... We work hard not to expose this information, otherwise privacy people get edgy.
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06:08:25 <LJWatson> ...It's not clear that this work would be in WP.
06:08:44 <LJWatson> ...Nothing in our scope that says we can work on it at the moment.
06:09:00 <LJWatson> ... I understand the use cases and the privacy concerns. Not sure this is something we should work on.
06:09:20 <LJWatson> Ted: Agree with Chaals.
06:09:34 <LJWatson> ... There is a difference between consistency of processing and the API.
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06:10:09 <LJWatson> ... Suppose we had a simple API that could take some string of user context data.
06:10:32 <LJWatson> ... it might be an awful idea for some pieces of information.
06:10:40 <LJWatson> ... Would rather we considered each one carefully.
06:10:47 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
06:10:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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06:11:22 <LJWatson> Anne: Things will depend on what information you want to query. There are also privacy issues here.
06:11:41 <LJWatson> RS: One thing that hasn't made it into Media queries today is Hich Contrast Mode (HCM).
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06:12:30 <LJWatson> ... Need alternte text for video, is there an AT accessing theebrowser?
06:12:50 <LJWatson> Ted: These are things for Device APIs WG.
06:13:11 <LJWatson> RS: Why is whether captions are turned on a device API?
06:13:24 <LJWatson> Ted: The Media TF could talk to you about captions.
06:13:36 <LJWatson> CMN: Talk to PaulC about the Media TF.
06:14:14 <LJWatson> ... There is only a small amount of things that are relevant to this WG.
06:14:31 <LJWatson> cyns: APIs for describing widgets, controls and events are in scope for this WG.
06:14:53 <LJWatson> ... Testing is outside of this WG, but people might be interested to know we're meeting with Web Drivers tomorrow.
06:15:17 <LJWatson> CMN: How we provide information about components is definitely in scope for us. We should continue the conversation.
06:15:36 <LJWatson> ... encourage members of WP to look at the work done on how to make a component accessible.
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06:16:10 <LJWatson> ... ADo you have any sense of particular problems with Web Comps.
06:16:23 <LJWatson> JN: Referencing the Shadow DOM from outside is one problem.
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06:16:31 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
06:16:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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06:17:06 <LJWatson> Mark: we're building Web Comps prototypes.
06:17:18 <MichaelC> clarification on JN, think issue was referencing outside the Shadow DOM from inside it
06:17:36 <LJWatson> RS: Are there any semantics that we don't have in ARIA today that you need for web Comps?
06:18:21 <LJWatson> Anne: There might be room for someong else apart from the shadow tree.
06:18:49 <LJWatson> ... If you have a button and you want to expose its role and state, there needs to be something in between where you could set the default ARIA - wich could be overridden.
06:19:00 <LJWatson> ... Similar to the way HTML elements have default roles and states.
06:19:22 <LJWatson> ... There are similar APIs needed around things like focus.
06:19:42 <LJWatson> ... We've maybe figured out accessibility in Custom Elements.
06:20:04 <LJWatson> ... Trying to understand how we would implement native HTML as Web Components today reveals lots of problems.
06:20:19 <LJWatson> RS: We should look at mappings for the HTML elements themselves and see where we have gaps.
06:20:39 <LJWatson> Anne: Also what kind of API the HTML elements thmselves would use to talk to the acc or browser layers.
06:20:52 <LJWatson> ... It's a ard problem.
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06:21:14 <LJWatson> cyns: So if we built the <select> as a web Coponent, what would we need?
06:21:27 <annevk> https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements
06:21:29 <annevk> hober: ^^
06:21:35 <LJWatson> Ted: Domenic D started a project to document this.
06:21:49 <LJWatson> CMN: Of course there are emantics missing in ARIA.
06:22:02 <hober> https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements
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06:22:06 <LJWatson> ... every controls in my starship controller UI I'm building.
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06:22:19 <LJWatson> ... But there are some semantics we probably don't need in ARIA.
06:22:48 <LJWatson> ... Can we provide a list of semantics for allthe things people might make? No, that's why we have Web Comps in the first place.
06:22:58 <LJWatson> ... we need to go beyond compiling a giant list of semantics.
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06:23:06 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
06:23:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
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06:24:06 <mt_____> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1soMBhvsd0wuk8PO5UjtrMd116Z95jJiZLxlUFomyBFs/edit#slide=id.p
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06:43:16 <npdoty> volunteers to scribe?
06:43:34 <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
06:43:51 <adrianba> mt: showing slides in deck
06:46:44 <adrianba> mt: traditionally, when you close the page the web app stops
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06:48:42 <adrianba> ... having an indicator for location, etc. let's you know something is happening so you can revoke it if it was a mistake
06:49:47 <adrianba> ... for new features we need to figure out how to manage things that happen in the background outside the users control
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06:57:31 <adrianba> chaals: do you give a notification to the site when the quota runs out
06:57:42 <adrianba> mt: thinking about how to notify the site
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06:58:07 <adrianba> ... can change the quota based on interactions with site
06:58:49 <adrianba> ... looking at how to assign reputation to sites for users
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06:59:18 <adrianba> JakeA: if notification is shown it doesn't dock quota - why is this way around?
06:59:40 <adrianba> mt: want to make sure it is a notification that the user sees
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07:00:17 <adrianba> ... no accountability if the user doesn't actually see the notice
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07:01:26 <adrianba> JakeA: any defence against one notification showing and then hiding
07:01:46 <adrianba> mt: yes, the 3s time is to still be showing a notice
07:02:10 <adrianba> JakeA: what about setTimeout?
07:02:22 <adrianba> mt: didn't think we had setTimeout - why do we have that?
07:02:41 <adrianba> JakeA: useful and no reason not to have it
07:02:55 <adrianba> JakeA: the idea that when a tab is closed the site can't run any more
07:03:08 <adrianba> ... on android I have tabs open I wouldn't expect to run code
07:03:20 <adrianba> mt: I removed points about background tabs to keep the slides simple
07:04:21 <npdoty> q+
07:04:24 <adrianba> mt: I don't have any good answers - I think the features are worth having -
07:04:34 <adrianba> ack next
07:04:46 <adrianba> npdoty: really glad we could have a little time to discuss this
07:04:53 <adrianba> ... privacy ig hearing about this more often
07:05:01 <adrianba> ... coming up in more APIs
07:05:09 <adrianba> ... want to share knowledge about this
07:05:23 <adrianba> ... also useful to figure out what to put into specs to deal with this
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07:06:27 <adrianba> mt: shipping some code that implements this experiment
07:06:36 <adrianba> ... actively looking for new ways to solve the problem
07:06:51 <adrianba> annevk: do we still require user opt in for all these?
07:06:55 <adrianba> mt: we do for push
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07:07:07 <adrianba> ... don't believe there is for background sync
07:07:21 <adrianba> JakeA: periodic background sync will require a permission but not for one off
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07:08:39 <adrianba> chaals: in the same way a user can revoke permission, being able to send a note to the server asking to forget some information might be useful
07:08:43 <adrianba> won't deal with bad actors
07:08:53 <adrianba> s/won't/... won't/
07:09:05 <adrianba> ... seems some value in enabling that
07:09:31 <adrianba> mt: one of the things we do is unsubscribe the SW from the push service
07:09:40 <adrianba> ... so next time they try to send they will find out
07:09:52 <adrianba> annevk: when?
07:10:00 <adrianba> mt: after the final message
07:10:28 <adrianba> JakeA: sendBeacon might have the same problem with being cached after laptop sleep
07:10:39 <adrianba> XXX: working on background sync
07:10:46 <adrianba> ... focused on one shot first
07:10:58 <adrianba> ... in most cases will fire right away
07:11:17 <dcooney>  /XXX/kbx, Chrome PM/
07:11:30 <adrianba> ... for an API where you can specify a delay then we might show a notification
07:12:16 <adrianba> chaals: I wasn't talking about unsubscribe - I meant having sent data over the wire being able to ask the server to please forget what I sent
07:12:25 <adrianba> ... which is why it only works for good actors
07:12:52 <adrianba> mt: need to think about how you might identify that information
07:14:46 <adrianba> JakeA: another case where me might leak data is if you type into address bar, you get autocomplete that can send data for preconnect
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07:14:59 <adrianba> mt: yes, but this might be a different issue
07:15:09 <adrianba> ... we do DNS look-up when you hover a link for example
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07:15:17 <adrianba> ... somewhat orthogonal though
07:15:27 <adrianba> npdoty: one thing for the task manager option or for SW in general
07:15:40 <adrianba> ... when I install something on my phone it has an icon and a name
07:16:11 <adrianba> ... but with SW even if I go to look it might be hard for me to figure out which maps to what
07:16:32 <adrianba> ... using origin is great, might be memorable, but also have a danger where task manager list content is meaningless
07:17:25 <adrianba> JakeA: task manager works well for storage
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07:17:41 <adrianba> ... might have adding to home screen puts it into storage settings
07:17:51 <adrianba> ... for privacy settings is having a separate manager the right thing?
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07:18:51 <adrianba> kbx: might be biased but do like the way chrome is doing for site settings - if there is concern for geofencing - if you know something happened you can go and disable it
07:19:00 <adrianba> mt: we don't see a lot of people using site settings
07:19:10 <adrianba> ... new permissions API to see some of these things
07:19:18 <adrianba> ... maybe look at how often things are used
07:19:24 <adrianba> ... but don't see many users go to this
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07:19:39 <adrianba> kbx: when you get push notification you get a link to site settings
07:20:05 <adrianba> mt: I didn't show firefox UX - origin is shown and menu allows blocking push from the site there
07:20:10 <adrianba> ... we don't go via site settings
07:21:50 <adrianba> npdoty: if you want to continue this conversation - privacy IG is meeting friday
07:22:08 <adrianba> ... if you think there is some documentation we need to write then turn into work items is helpful
07:22:17 <adrianba> chaals:  break for 20 minsd
07:22:33 <adrianba> s/minsd/mins/
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07:45:21 <adrianba> TOPIC: Directory upload
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07:45:52 <adrianba> alia: want to do something like the old FileSystem API but new
07:46:06 <adrianba> ... don't think FileSystem API should be dependency for this
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07:46:43 <adrianba> ... file upload first and then file system later
07:46:56 <adrianba> annevk: that's fine with us too - we're not implementing FS API yet
07:47:01 <adrianba> ... but we do want to do this
07:47:08 <adrianba> alia: okay, not hearing any objections
07:47:16 <adrianba> ... also heard about security/privacy concerns
07:47:44 <adrianba> ... when you select folder, you give the site explicit permission to go through the folder
07:47:51 <adrianba> ... we heard from Mozilla concerns about this
07:48:03 <adrianba> ... there might be hidden files, files user didn't know were there, etc.
07:48:17 <adrianba> ... conversation with martin to look at this again
07:48:27 <adrianba> ... about whether we need some restrictions in place
07:48:41 <adrianba> mt: don't know what the world looks like if we decide the security is terrible
07:48:48 <adrianba> ... we'd say we don't want to ship the API
07:49:03 <adrianba> ... but I've been convinced we can ship the API
07:49:10 <adrianba> ... so I need to persuade the folks
07:49:20 <adrianba> ... not clear we need the API but that's a different topic
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07:49:28 <adrianba> chaals: seems entirely clear we do need this
07:49:40 <adrianba> ... uploading one file at a time is painful
07:49:46 <adrianba> annevk: we have upload multiple
07:50:02 <adrianba> chaals: yes, but when you have a folder structure it is easier to do in one go
07:50:21 <adrianba> ... hidden files, I know there are data files that get created
07:50:30 <adrianba> ... instinct is don't upload things I can't see
07:50:47 <adrianba> ... is that acceptable or are some of those files necessary?
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07:51:02 <adrianba> ... e.g. in unix file system lots of hidden files that make things work
07:51:29 <adrianba> annevk: hidden files created by OS probably okay not to upload
07:51:37 <adrianba> ... but created by the user probably necessary
07:51:43 <adrianba> for example .htaccess or .git
07:51:48 <adrianba> s/for/... for/
07:52:02 <adrianba> alia: think one viewpoint was there should be allow list based on name
07:52:14 <adrianba> chaals: sounds dreadful, problem is knowing how they were created
07:52:25 <adrianba> alia: going to need a policy to do all or none
07:52:39 <adrianba> ... another things I heard was restricting to just https
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07:52:58 <adrianba> ... not sure that is the right idea - legacy API doesn't have this restriction
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07:53:15 <adrianba> annevk: any new thing that involves user data should not go over http
07:53:32 <adrianba> alia: already do file uploads over http
07:53:42 <adrianba> annevk: but not a good reason to keep doing bad ideas
07:54:10 <adrianba> alia: primary concern is that this is new API to do the same use case as old chrome API
07:54:20 <adrianba> ... advantage is promises and asynchrony
07:54:34 <adrianba> ... other than that if they are not getting the functionality because of https then they will use the old one
07:54:51 <adrianba> chaals: might get "it works in other browsers"
07:55:06 <adrianba> ... perhaps chrome will add restriction to current API
07:55:22 <adrianba> ... web is moving to https - might get away with doing restriction for this API
07:55:41 <adrianba> annevk: one thing that would be interesting is how much usage on non https sites
07:56:13 <adrianba> mjs: also worth asking is what the threat model we're defending against
07:56:22 <adrianba> ... doing on general principle for new features is silly
07:56:30 <adrianba> ... can imagine you think you are uploading a file somewhere
07:56:38 <adrianba> ... not ssl site
07:56:48 <adrianba> ... but hijacker is uploading elsewhere than you think
07:57:13 <adrianba> ... is this ever a bad thing since they weren't using ssl anyway
07:57:36 <adrianba> annevk: might make a mistake about folder you pick and send files you didn't want in the clear
07:57:46 <adrianba> ... bigger risk because of folders
07:57:54 <adrianba> mjs: almost an argument for not having this API
07:58:24 <adrianba> chaals
07:58:29 <adrianba> s/chaals//
07:58:52 <adrianba> chaals: don't think there is some particular threat - this is part of pushing people to https
07:59:15 <adrianba> ... if lots of people using chrome API are already on https then the others may diminish
07:59:25 <adrianba> ... would be concerned if we upload hidden files
07:59:44 <adrianba> alia: how about making it https only and see if we get pushback
07:59:53 <adrianba> ... easier to remove the restriction later than add it on later
07:59:59 <adrianba> mt: perfectly reasonable
08:00:09 <adrianba> ... need people from chrome team to be part of the conversation
08:00:22 <adrianba> ...premature to make decision to support non-https yet
08:00:34 <adrianba> s/...p/... p/
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08:01:03 <adrianba> mt: my position is that file upload that we have had in the web since forever in clear text was a mistake but everything was at that time
08:01:11 <adrianba> alia: agreed
08:01:23 <adrianba> alia: for new API directory property called path
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08:01:30 <adrianba> ... question about if this is useful
08:01:39 <adrianba> ... never had this in old File System API
08:01:48 <adrianba> ... maybe this isn't needed  - it is a convenience thnig
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08:02:17 <adrianba> annevk: when you serialise it to send there is just the filename with the path
08:02:29 <adrianba> alia: I think this is a different issue
08:02:44 <adrianba> annevk: thinking about an analogy to serialization
08:03:00 <adrianba> alia: questioning the utility of the attribute
08:03:19 <adrianba> annevk: should have a single thing with path and file name
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08:05:20 <adrianba> adrianba: don't think you should merge path and filename - always will want filename and don't want to keep splitting
08:06:27 <adrianba> annevk: maybe a path attribute - not sure
08:07:56 <adrianba> [discussion about how you might use folder name or not]
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08:14:14 <adrianba> [discussion about use of directory names vs. paths]
08:14:25 <adrianba> chaals: leave out path and see if anyone complains
08:14:43 <adrianba> alia: right now there is a description of the UI in the spec
08:14:52 <adrianba> ... not clear that this is a good idea
08:15:03 <adrianba> ... we have an API in the spec because we have this UI
08:15:22 <adrianba> ... in the spec there is a control when you add folder attribute to input element
08:15:29 <adrianba> you get two buttons, one for files and one for folders
08:15:34 <adrianba> s/you/... you/
08:16:03 <adrianba> ... not all OS allow file and folders to be picked together today
08:16:07 <adrianba> ... but might not in future
08:16:39 <adrianba> hober: don't think the spec should have to work around system bugs in Windows and Linux
08:17:18 <adrianba> alia: if we make it platform agnostic then it won't readily support APIs that Apple has
08:17:31 <adrianba> annevk: problem was that the spec is very prescriptive
08:17:38 <adrianba> ... about how UX should look
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08:18:35 <alia> https://wicg.github.io/directory-upload/proposal.html
08:24:56 <adrianba> mjs: for rendering of the control, if you specify both files and folders the UA must allow this capability
08:25:02 <adrianba> ... but it's optional how
08:25:34 <adrianba> ... perhaps we should have something better than calling click
08:25:49 <adrianba> slightlyoff: we can't support UX in this kind of spec
08:25:58 <adrianba> alia: okay, will follow mjs suggestion
08:26:27 <adrianba> mt: don't have a flag, just have three functions, and files, folders, and both and then both might not be available
08:26:56 <adrianba> chaals: adjourned
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12:28:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items