13:02:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub-aria
13:02:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/15-dpub-aria-irc
13:02:39 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
13:03:17 <JF> zakim, who's noisy
13:03:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', JF
13:05:11 <mgylling> scribenick mgylling
13:05:46 <tzviya> scribenick: mgylling
13:07:39 <tzviya> MG: 2-page spread with an image or table that goes across two "pages" in PDF or EPUB. PDF has a method of connecting these for AT. Is there a method for doing this in ARIA using URI (as opposed to ID-Ref)?
13:08:58 <JF> zakim, who's here?
13:08:58 <Zakim> Present: Janina, Tzviya, JF
13:09:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, JF, mgylling, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, MichaelC, janina, trackbot
13:09:07 <mgylling> tzviya: we seem to be having some sound issues
13:09:51 <mgylling> tzviya: email exchange with Joanie last night re the concept of a page, we may suggest that this is something ARIA should take up for ARIA 2
13:10:08 <mgylling> … we should takl to Joanie about where this is headed
13:10:20 <mgylling> markus: ok
13:11:19 <mgylling> s/takl/talk
13:11:44 <mgylling> tzviya: we will not meet next week
13:11:58 <mgylling> tzviya: any burning issues for TPAC F2F?
13:13:03 <mgylling> … items I thought we wanted to discuss: comments on extended description analysis, the ongoing work in web components, rel vs role
13:14:00 <mgylling> Janina: for rel vs role, we need to specify the use cases and requirements as detailed as we can, from both COGA and DPUB
13:14:56 <mgylling> … that you know where you are going before following a link, and that we support multiple markup languages
13:15:28 <mgylling> … re cross-document flow, I recall doing something about this in ODF, so the issue is familiar to some of us
13:15:54 <mgylling> tzviya: Other suggestions for the TPAC F2F?
13:17:56 <mgylling> tzviya: who should we have in the room at TPAC?
13:18:13 <mgylling> Janina: Charles McCathie Neville should be part of the conversation
13:18:26 <mgylling> … I’ll try to make sure that happens
13:18:51 <mgylling> tzviya: I believe one of his groups meets at the same time, so may be hard to schedule
13:19:03 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_Gylling
13:19:09 <mgylling> Present+ Ivan_Herman
13:19:33 <mgylling> tzviya: janina suggests we put together our requirements for rel and role, should we do that now?
13:20:11 <mgylling> ivan: why does the rel vs role come up now?
13:20:27 <mgylling> mgylling: because ARIA hasnt dealt with link natures before
13:20:39 <mgylling> janina: we want it to work in SVG as well as HTML
13:20:54 <mgylling> … there are not only requirements from DPUB but also COGA
13:21:18 <tzviya> See comments on GitHub https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/96
13:21:39 <mgylling> ivan: my problem with rel is this whole story of extension and the microformats wiki page, I dont know if this whole thing works
13:22:26 <tzviya> q?
13:22:29 <mgylling> … that being said, I talked with Charles about very briefly yesterday, he thinks the whole issue of extension in general should be addressed again
13:22:55 <JF> Q+
13:22:57 <mgylling> tzviya: it seems that the ownership of the wiki has just shifted
13:23:24 <tzviya> ack JF
13:23:57 <mgylling> JF: I just wanted to say that the wiki is a gathering place for the various rel values, they all point back to an external spec somewhere else
13:24:12 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2015Oct/0044.html about ownership of wiki
13:24:15 <mgylling> … there’s lots of people that use the rel value, and document it in their own space
13:24:40 <mgylling> … so there’s no reason why that tradition can’t continue
13:26:03 <mgylling> tzviya: it sounds like this group could define the terms, and then point to it from the wiki
13:26:35 <mgylling> JF: there was a comment that mentioned “as long as it works”, and thats part of the question: what exactly do you mean by “works”
13:27:20 <mgylling> … does it solve your use cases?
13:27:41 <mgylling> tzviya: one of Rich´s concerns is that AT does not make use of this attribute at this time
13:27:53 <mgylling> … but thats not an issue for the DPUB group to solve
13:29:21 <mgylling> JF: a new attribute wouldnt be recognized by AT at this point either
13:29:39 <mgylling> … you want a finite list of taxonomy terms
13:30:36 <ivan> q+
13:30:46 <mgylling> Matt: the universality question, Rich’s issue that rel is not in SVG, if it doesnt work in SVG then what do you do?
13:30:48 <tzviya> ack ivan
13:30:58 <JF> Q+
13:32:20 <mgylling> ivan: I think I agree with the fact that the main issue here is, once we have the terminology, the question is if some language has an attribute that can be used for those terms. A link in SVG is in the xlink namespace. The xlink spec has xlink:type that has the same purpose as HTML’s rel attribute
13:32:48 <JF> +1 to Ivan's point
13:32:52 <tzviya> ack JF
13:32:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #dpub-aria
13:33:50 <mgylling> JF: Ivan you hit the nail on the head. If SVG doesnt support rel today, we dont think that that’s a hugely different problem, either add it or use xlink:type
13:34:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:34:37 <mgylling> tzviya: [gives summary to Rich]
13:37:05 <mgylling> rich: one question to start with: I was told that you would apply it to anchor tag, is that right?
13:37:12 <mgylling> tzviya: yes, anchors or links
13:37:22 <mgylling> janina: and the ability to return
13:37:43 <JF> <a>, <link>, the almost forgotten <area>
13:37:48 <mgylling> tzviya: if you are searching and you land in a glossary, you want to be able to get to where the term is used
13:38:46 <mgylling> rich: next question: would you never have a situation in digital authoring, where someone put a div instead, and use that with JS to make it look like a link (this is why we had a link role in web pages)?
13:39:27 <ivan> q+
13:39:40 <JF> Q+ to say that I think this is a weak argument, that not being able to add it to <button> is possibly more problematic
13:40:39 <ivan> q+
13:40:58 <ivan> q-
13:41:16 <mgylling> tzviya: taking a step back, what we are looking for is not a solution on these specific items but a general position from ARIA on rel vs new attribute
13:42:20 <mgylling> rich: from my perspective, whats important, you want something that’s cross cutting, meet the needs of DPUB but also interoperable with AT, the one thing I dont know, if you use either anchor or link and annotate with rel, then rel is not mapped to platform accessibility APIs
13:42:45 <mgylling> … you would have to do some additional work to map the rel attribute to AT APIs
13:42:53 <ivan> q+
13:43:16 <JF> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
13:43:29 <mgylling> … the problem is that then you have a whole sequence of values at the wiki
13:43:48 <mgylling> … so thats a big long list to shovel to AT
13:43:58 <mgylling> … you can do it either way
13:44:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:44:37 <tzviya> ack JF
13:44:37 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to say that I think this is a weak argument, that not being able to add it to <button> is possibly more problematic
13:45:37 <mgylling> JF: the work of mapping to AT APIs, whether you rel or a new attribute, the work is about the same
13:45:41 <mgylling> q+
13:46:11 <mgylling> … in terms of pollution, in the wiki there are two groups that provides prefixed terms, owner.value
13:46:14 <tzviya> q+ to say that if we define the list of rel within the DPUB ARIA module, can we then include in DPUB AAM?
13:46:38 <mgylling> q- because tzviya wants to ask the same thing
13:46:56 <mgylling> JF: it is well supported by search engines, SEO benefit
13:47:05 <mgylling> q-
13:47:09 <tzviya> ack ivan
13:47:46 <mgylling> ivan: two comments: process of rel registration, the dcmi terms and openid terms were in fact retrofitted into the microformats wiki
13:49:27 <mgylling> … rich, they way you said this is that its up DPUB to decide what they want, but I dont think that this is exclusively a DPUB issue,  so I am not sure that presenting it as our responsibility is fair, the very same question of annotating links may and probably will come up in future ARIA vocab modules. So whether we use rel or not is a decision to be taken by ARIA WG.
13:49:44 <mgylling> .. they very pragmatic view in DPUB is: which ever works and is accepted
13:50:11 <tzviya> ack tzviya
13:50:11 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that if we define the list of rel within the DPUB ARIA module, can we then include in DPUB AAM?
13:50:17 <mgylling> … that AT doesnt recognize it today doesnt mean that it won’t do it tomorrow
13:50:57 <mgylling> rich: in terms of just providing the metadata for publishing, if you only need anchor and link you’re good, but API mapping issues remain
13:51:21 <mgylling> tzviya: could we include the list of rel values in the DPUB ARIA module, and DPUB Mappings doc?
13:51:58 <mgylling> +1 on tha tidea
13:52:01 <JF> Q+
13:52:05 <mgylling> s/tidea/idea
13:52:36 <ivan> q+
13:52:41 <mgylling> rich: problem is that HTML itself doesnt have a mapping, there’s really no restrictions in what you put in that space, we cannot define mappings for just some of them
13:52:54 <mgylling> … I would not think its appropriate for DPUB AAM to do that
13:53:20 <mgylling> … you can’t just define that values you have
13:54:39 <mgylling> ivan: but what the HTML specification says, defines a small set and then points to wiki. What is also true is that the way the wiki page is set up that it refers back to the spec, so I think its OK if ARIA WG has rel values in some document and then have the wiki point to these
13:55:20 <mgylling> rich: rel is not an ARIA attribute, we would have to agree in HTML Mapping Guide
13:55:33 <mgylling> janina: Im trying to understand how this gets presented
13:56:15 <mgylling> … would all of the registered ones be supported?
13:56:22 <tzviya> ack JF
13:56:28 <mgylling> rich: I dont think we can do one without the other
13:56:59 <mgylling> JF: I’m curious when you talk about the mapping, really the only mapping would be a label, its almost an accessible description
13:57:20 <mgylling> … if you’ve got a common taxonomy, you’ve got that list
13:57:34 <mgylling> janina: its multiple taxonomies
13:57:50 <mgylling> rich: the final issue: we dont have a rel attribute in SVG
13:58:04 <mgylling> janina: there’s xlink:type
13:58:26 <mgylling> ivan: we have to figure out where SVG is going with xlink
13:59:11 <mgylling> tzviya: we clearly have not made any decisions yet, lets take this up at TPAC
13:59:51 <mgylling> … I would like to have in place before then on the DPUB side is requirements, and we would like to know where ARIA stands re link types
14:00:53 <mgylling> rich: the reason I mentioned aria-destination is that the COGA group is looking at similar concepts, but their work is far less along than yours
14:01:15 <mgylling> … we want to lock down ARIA 1.1, if this becomes too bug of an issue, it wont make ARIA 1.1
14:01:26 <mgylling> s/bug/big
14:02:14 <tzviya> RRSagent, make minutes
14:02:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/15-dpub-aria-minutes.html tzviya
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