16:59:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
16:59:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-aria-apg-irc
16:59:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:59:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
16:59:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:59:37 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:59:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:59:38 <trackbot> Date: 12 October 2015
16:59:46 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA APG TF
16:59:50 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
16:59:58 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:00:15 <JemmaKu> JemmaKu has joined #aria-apg
17:00:34 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:00:34 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
17:00:41 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
17:01:05 <JemmaKu> + jemmaku
17:01:46 <jamesn> present+ JemmaKu
17:01:55 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
17:02:17 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:02:43 <mck> mck has joined #aria-apg
17:03:01 <jamesn> present+ AnnAbbott
17:03:19 <jamesn> present+ MattKing
17:03:38 <jamesn> present+ Raghu
17:03:48 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
17:03:54 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-1.html
17:04:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ Pattern work status page update https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
17:04:27 <jamesn> Discuss status of example development.
17:04:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ checkbox example review (John)
17:04:27 <jamesn> Agenda+ Example template and example coding practices
17:04:28 <jamesn> 2 template examples:
17:04:29 <jamesn> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/coding-template/template2.html
17:04:31 <jamesn> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/afc179d3cf5ae3496d46080b216ab6751613c16e/examples/coding-template/template3.html
17:04:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Landmark navigation pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
17:04:53 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
17:06:14 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:06:26 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
17:06:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Pattern work status page update https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
17:06:55 <jamesn> MK: no changes
17:07:14 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria-apg
17:07:34 <jamesn> MK: working on menu right now but didn't finish it
17:07:39 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:08:07 <jamesn> MK: last week we left the conversation - we are not done with that
17:08:17 <JemmaKu> me/waves hello to Michiel
17:09:04 <jamesn> MK: was looking for another bug on the menu pattern - 1 is out of order
17:09:11 <jamesn> jn: I will submit the other bug
17:09:22 <IanPouncey> present+ IanPouncey
17:10:08 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:10:08 <Zakim> agendum 2. "checkbox example review (John)" taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:51 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-1.html
17:11:02 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
17:12:41 <jamesn> JN: space doesn't seem to toggle the all condiments checkbox
17:12:57 <jamesn> JK: can look into fixing
17:13:12 <jamesn> MB: why are we using divs rather than checkboxes
17:13:34 <jamesn> MB: i think we should encourage people to use the native element
17:13:59 <jamesn> JG: If i am building a checkbox out of SVG then you don't have them
17:14:19 <jamesn> JG: you are not suggesting having a role on a checkbox are you?
17:14:20 <jamesn> MB: no
17:14:39 <jamesn> MB: suggesting having a mix of html checkboxes and aria checkboxed like i did with buttons
17:14:49 <jamesn> JG: waht is the advantage of that
17:15:05 <jamesn> MK: if using a native checkbox you don't need any aria at all
17:15:15 <jamesn> MK: I guess that is true of button too
17:15:33 <jamesn> MK: could make a toggle button or a menu button out of an html button
17:15:45 <jamesn> MB: we should encourage people to use native elements if they can
17:16:04 <jamesn> MK: if you were using actual checkboxes what would you use aria for
17:16:24 <jamesn> MB: in my view we should show both sidesa
17:16:35 <jamesn> JG: could put a note in it
17:17:09 <MichielBijl> Note: When using HTML use the <button> element. It is recommended that authors not re-purpose other elements to create buttons.
17:17:10 <jamesn> MK: we put comething like that in link
17:18:06 <jamesn> JG: could add some standard ones to the mixed example
17:18:35 <jamesn> JG: in this case standard checkboxes are used and role=checkbox was used on the mixed one
17:18:54 <jamesn> MK: we would end up putting that note in everything that has an HTML equivalent
17:18:56 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
17:19:19 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:19:33 <jamesn> JG: would make examples more complex if have to explain why there are mixes of things
17:19:57 <jamesn> BG: see a lot of devs that put role=checkbox on checkboxes
17:20:33 <jamesn> BG: when aria checkboxes are handy is on touchscreen. People make checkboxes where the only thing visible is the label, but there is no visible checkbox there
17:22:15 <jamesn> BG: on desktop can use off-screen standard checkbox. on mobile that doesn't work so well
17:22:32 <jamesn> MB: we encourage people to use native elements.
17:22:51 <jamesn> JG: we are not trying to teach people how to use a standard checkbox. there are other places for that
17:23:10 <jamesn> MK: thinking a little about the points steve makes in using aria in html docs
17:23:24 <jamesn> MK: it is the aria authoring practices guide
17:23:37 <jamesn> MK: we do want to help people using aria in html do so correctly
17:24:06 <jamesn> MK: you are starting to sway me Jon. Because there are places that there is redundancy in aria.
17:24:25 <jamesn> MK: if put <main> role=main is still enouraged in some places
17:24:37 <jamesn> MK: i don't know if that is still a good idea
17:26:15 <jamesn> MB: i view it as a place to send devs to learn how to do a design pattern
17:26:22 <jamesn> MK: we are trying to cover the aria roles
17:26:44 <jamesn> JG: we should do the roles we want people to use
17:27:14 <jamesn> JG: the main thing of documenting the patterns with an example for each role. Then see if have bandwidth to work on ant-patterns
17:27:32 <jamesn> MK: already have a plan for which ones we are going to do
17:27:59 <jamesn> MK: i don't think we need a plain html checkbox example, but a note would be good
17:28:02 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:28:27 <jamesn> MK: in the notes column - could add a note that "role checkbox is not applied to the standard checkboxed but is to the aria checkbox"
17:28:46 <jamesn> BG: could be useful to note which roles have implicit native semantics
17:29:00 <jamesn> BG: there are others which do not have native semantics
17:29:41 <jamesn> MK: i wonder if we should incorporate the implicit semantic language into this document someplace
17:30:01 <jamesn> MK: either do this or refer to it in steves document
17:30:37 <jamesn> MK: Jon if you can do the 3rd example that way for the mixed checkbox and add the note as described
17:31:43 <jamesn> IP: role presentation doesn't make an attribute optional
17:32:02 <jamesn> IP: aria-describedby attriebutes don't have an element with that ID
17:33:59 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F38.html
17:34:21 <jamesn> role=presentation doesn't allow you to skip alt="" according to the html validator
17:35:24 <jamesn> JN: WCAG allows it
17:37:58 <jamesn> MK: I want to get the language about implicit semantics into the APG in appropriate places
17:39:34 <jamesn> MK: dont know yet if it would be good to have a section about implicit semantics and reference it or come up with a short phrase
17:39:40 <jamesn> LW: once is easiest
17:39:41 <jamesn> +1
17:39:58 <jamesn> LW: can also link to the mapping documents from that explanation
17:40:19 <jamesn> LW: i think it is worth taking a handful of sentences to expalin it
17:41:58 <jamesn> JG: checbox 2 will reference aria-describedby for a grouping element
17:42:14 <jamesn> the aria-describedby will say what group the checkbox belongs to
17:42:27 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:42:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Example template and example coding practices" taken up [from jamesn]
17:42:46 <jamesn> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/coding-template/template2.html
17:42:46 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/coding-template/template2.html
17:42:54 <jamesn> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/afc179d3cf5ae3496d46080b216ab6751613c16e/examples/coding-template/template3.html
17:43:06 <JemmaKu> thanks, James
17:43:09 <jamesn> MK: MB also brought this up
17:45:02 <jamesn> JG: the basic compoennts of bothe templates is the same
17:47:11 <jamesn> JK: let me copy the new link for template 3
17:47:13 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/afc179d3cf5ae3496d46080b216ab6751613c16e/examples/coding-template/template3.html
17:50:39 <jamesn> MB: I would go for the checkbox example as I dont like tables
17:51:30 <jamesn> JN: tells people what is implemented and what isn't
17:51:48 <jamesn> MK: tells people which decisions are made and what aren't
17:52:19 <jamesn> JG: if we can reinforce things it is good
17:52:23 <jamesn> AA: i agree with Jon
17:52:41 <JemmaKu> I fixed the coding.
17:52:43 <JemmaKu> https://cdn.rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/coding-template/template3.html
17:52:45 <jamesn> MB: should add a line which states that this is the support for this implementaiton
17:53:08 <jamesn> MK: on the checkbox example page there is a heading of simple checkbox
17:53:19 <jamesn> MK: right under there is coding exmample heading
17:54:27 <jamesn> JG: checknbox 1 simple checkbox - there would be no special name other than coding exmaple
17:54:46 <jamesn> JG: or would we assume that right after h1 the coding example would start'
17:55:00 <jamesn> MK: these are rendered checkboxes so coding example is confusing
17:55:08 <jamesn> MK: i dont think we need 2 H1s
17:55:54 <jamesn> JG: thinking about SEO putting stuff in the banner would help
17:56:35 <jamesn> MK: H1 in the banner is fine but next in the page should be an H2 - simple checkbox example
17:57:40 <jamesn> MK: dont know if we always want to number the examples - perhaps name them
17:57:50 <jamesn> JG: checkbox role: simple checkbox
17:58:34 <jamesn> MK: prefer checkbox pattern: simple checkboix
17:58:53 <jamesn> LW: where we have variants perhaps keep 1 per page and then have related patterns
17:59:07 <jamesn> MK: we have the cell in the table where we have examples
17:59:18 <jamesn> LW: also perhaps have related patterns linking to the other
17:59:27 <jamesn> MK: 1 pattern per page
18:00:01 <jamesn> JN: sounds like editorial work
18:00:12 <jamesn> JN: to add links if we decide we want them
18:01:07 <jamesn> JG: assumed that the example would start after the h1?
18:01:20 <jamesn> MK: fine to have an H2 after it before the example
18:01:58 <jamesn> JK: just an h1 in the main content - don't need a banner
18:02:24 <jamesn> JG: H1 will include checkbox pattern to mark the start of the example?
18:04:27 <jamesn> MK: wanted to put the code in the ewxamples on the agenda?
18:05:04 <jamesn> MB: want to look at the descrtiption in the checkbox example
18:05:32 <jamesn> MB: is there a name for this style of comments
18:05:41 <jamesn> JK: working on refactoring and the comments
18:06:02 <jamesn> JK: using jsdoc
18:06:23 <jamesn> MB: like we are using 2 spaces instead of tabs. a bit more compact
18:06:56 <jamesn> IP: commetns about js style
18:07:19 <jamesn> IP: I think argument for 4 spaced tabs as more commonly used and would make it easier to copy into wider sodebases
18:07:29 <jamesn> IP: variables that are global which we need to avoid
18:07:41 <jamesn> IP: all the functions are global which we need to avoid
18:08:04 <jamesn> IP: I would suggest we stick with semi-colons rather than not using semi-colons
18:08:25 <jamesn> IP: it will work but you need to understand the rules and not many who say they do actually do
18:09:35 <jamesn> MK: a lot of devs don't understand when it is ok to skip semi-colons so better to have everywhere
18:09:42 <jamesn> IP: reduces cognitive load
18:09:55 <jamesn> IP: I don't get the argument that it makes your file larger is a good one
18:09:57 <jamesn> +1
18:11:01 <jamesn> IP: in the case of groupboxstate = .... changed to lower case , should set the true or false, but there is a convention of creating a variable with values in upercase and then compare against your "constant" when setting and getting
18:11:08 <LJWatson> +1 to using ;
18:11:45 <jamesn> JK: should i submit code revioew to github and that would be the best way
18:12:03 <jamesn> IP: as we decide need to document them
18:12:17 <LJWatson> +1 to code reviews (friendly ones :)
18:12:41 <jamesn> MK: the purpose of it being on the agenda is to decide the conventions we wantr to have
18:12:59 <jamesn> MK: if we are going to have them then need to document them
18:13:05 <MichielBijl> Link to git issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/95
18:13:15 <jamesn> MK: are we going to have a long list of things
18:13:27 <jamesn> IP: can link to existing standarrds
18:13:44 <jamesn> IP: must pass a jshint lint test with certain settings
18:13:53 <jamesn> IP: github has their own standards etc.
18:14:07 <jamesn> IP: would be my approach to link out to things
18:14:16 <jamesn> IP: using jsdoc is a good decision
18:14:38 <jamesn> IP: if keep it very simple then can use external tools
18:14:51 <jamesn> MB: I have a default file for everything i create
18:14:57 <jamesn> MB: for css files
18:15:15 <jamesn> IP: do we have anything on the wiki for how to contribute
18:15:20 <jamesn> IP: if so it should be there
18:15:34 <jamesn> MK: need exactly what you are saying on the wiki
18:15:34 <MichielBijl> s/default file/csscomb file
18:15:51 <jamesn> MK: trying to go to the participation pages
18:16:11 <JemmaKu> I like git issue Michiel created. This would be very helpful for coding sinceI am not js developer yet
18:16:26 <jamesn> MK: seems like a michael thing that stuff in the pf pages are very out of date
18:16:51 <jamesn> LW: problem i found with github is that our work was in the main repo
18:16:55 <JemmaKu> having some standard coding practice doc would be very helpful.
18:17:18 <jamesn> LW: it still may be possible but need to work out how not to get in other peoples way
18:17:40 <JemmaKu> question to Ian
18:17:47 <JemmaKu> +q
18:18:02 <jamesn> MK: a page on how to contribute would be very useful
18:18:21 <jamesn> LW: more complex than it ought to be as we have multiple lines of work in the same repo
18:18:56 <jamesn> JN: should bring this up on the editors call
18:20:14 <jamesn> MB: before meeting ends
18:20:29 <jamesn> MB: was working on the alert example - when I started on the code example
18:20:35 <jamesn> MB: wanted to share the progress
18:20:45 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/0f9ce27964f35b55d3e7628d91874c2e.js
18:20:48 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/0f9ce27964f35b55d3e7628d91874c2e
18:20:52 <jamesn> MB: wanted some feedback
18:22:33 <jamesn> MB: no way to get a list of focusable elements...
18:23:11 <jamesn> MB: there is no way to get an array of focusable elements
18:23:26 <jamesn> MB: wondering if someone had a more reliable way of doing it
18:24:20 <jamesn> MB: jqueryui guys do it the same way
18:24:34 <jamesn> IP: dont think there is a native way
18:25:41 <jamesn> MB: the way I do it doesn't work.
18:25:43 <JemmaKu> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/querySelectorAll
18:25:55 <jamesn> IP: does it in the order of your selector
18:26:43 <jamesn> IP: rather than write the script so it focuses on the first or last. could put a selector in a data attribute and then set focus to that
18:27:03 <jamesn> MK: should read the describedby so long as anything in the dialog gets focus
18:27:21 <jamesn> MK: the author can specify which element should get focus when it opens
18:27:59 <jamesn> IP: the things which read out a long describedby and then the element with focus. is this something you want to hear? or would you prefer to get a tab press first
18:28:12 <jamesn> MK: jaws will read the description last
18:28:38 <jamesn> MK: others may do it differently....title then description and then focused element
18:28:59 <jamesn> MK: always easy to do VO-F3 etc to find where the focus is
18:29:02 <LJWatson> LJWatson has left #aria-apg
18:29:09 <jamesn> IP: you are happy with that
18:29:36 <jamesn> IP: I would set focus on the container
18:29:56 <jamesn> MK: I think it should always go to the first piece of content
18:30:36 <jamesn> BG: as far as screen reader behaviour goes. aria-describedby should only be annunced once in the dialog but Ie11 w/ JAWS is announcing it on each tab press
18:30:50 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:41:44 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria-apg