15:00:46 RRSAgent has joined #alreq 15:00:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc 15:01:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:01:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 15:01:37 RRSAgent: ScribeNick: Shervin 15:01:37 I'm logging. I don't understand 'ScribeNick: Shervin', Behnam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:01:44 RRSAgent: ScribeNick: r12a 15:01:44 I'm logging. I don't understand 'ScribeNick: r12a', Behnam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:01:47 rrsagent, set log to public 15:02:19 Najib has joined #alreq 15:02:25 Hi all 15:02:35 Hi Najib. 15:02:56 Hi, Najid. 15:03:01 Najib*, sorry. 15:04:26 RSSAgent, Scribe: Shervin 15:04:58 scribenick: shervin 15:05:13 scribe? 15:05:25 RRSAgent: ScribeNick: Behnam 15:05:25 I'm logging. I don't understand 'ScribeNick: Behnam', Behnam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:05:28 agenda+ Status review of action items from previous meeting 15:05:53 agenda+ Recruiting Status 15:05:54 ScribeNick: Behnam 15:06:05 agenda+ Participant comments on topic keywords 15:06:33 Sallar has joined #alreq 15:06:34 agenda+ Behnam proposed discussing addition of layout of Quranic text to special cases (together with poetry and math). 15:06:44 agenda+ Planning for start of work on glossary 15:06:48 rrsagent, set log to public 15:06:51 agenda+ Behnam on text layout topics which might need research in pre-print documents 15:07:01 rrsagent, make logs public 15:07:02 action? 15:07:10 agenda+ Topics on shape of future document: Level of self-sufficiency and being self-contained? Refer to existing literature vs. self-sufficient text. 15:07:29 agenda+ Topics on shape of future document: Deciding on appendices and supplemental tabular informations in advance or as we go and see the need? 15:07:31 Chair: Behnam 15:07:39 agenda? 15:07:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:07:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 15:08:33 RRSAgent: Meeting: Arabic Layout Requirements 3rd Weekly Meeting 15:08:33 I'm logging. I don't understand 'Meeting: Arabic Layout Requirements 3rd Weekly Meeting', Behnam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:08:42 present+ najib 15:08:44 Meeting: Arabic Layout Requirements 3rd Weekly Meeting 15:08:50 present+ r12a 15:08:54 zakim, who's here? 15:08:54 Present: najib, r12a 15:08:56 On IRC I see Sallar, Najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, r12a, Shervin, Behnam, mostafa 15:09:07 present+ Shervin 15:09:08 present+ mostafa 15:09:10 present+ Sallar 15:09:13 present+ Behnam 15:09:21 zakim, who's here? 15:09:21 Present: najib, r12a, Shervin, mostafa, Sallar, Behnam 15:09:23 On IRC I see Sallar, Najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, r12a, Shervin, Behnam, mostafa 15:09:39 present+ Waseem 15:09:45 RRSAgent: draft minutes 15:09:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 15:10:17 agenda? 15:10:42 http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#ActionSummary 15:11:06 Behnam: Opening the meeting. Looking at action items from prev meeting. 15:11:54 ...Behnam put together list of experts to be contacted later. 15:12:25 ...Mostafa's working on more recruits. 15:13:33 ...Richard on publishing the minutes. Access to CVS is needed which is not available right now. In the meantime, Richard will help us with those. 15:14:20 ...Richard sent email to Oman's German University, cc-ing Tom Milo. 15:14:50 ...Shervin and Behnam set up the meeting and agenda. 15:15:47 ...Shervin was to put together a list of existing literature. Currently working on it. 15:16:23 Behnam: Asks what's the best way to share files. Richard probably on git repo. 15:16:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 15:16:56 Behnam: Asks about action item protocol. Richard: They probably remain until we close them. 15:17:33 close ACTION-03 15:17:33 agenda? 15:17:39 r12a: The setup is different and he's trying it out. 15:17:46 agenda- 1 15:17:51 close action03 15:18:02 rrsagent, close action03 15:18:02 I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action03', r12a. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:18:33 q+ 15:18:36 Behnam: Opening agenda item 2 regarding recruiting. 15:18:37 scribenick: Shervin 15:19:22 q- 15:19:37 scribenick: r12a 15:19:45 shervin: sent email to org in Qatar 15:19:54 ... to see if they would be interested 15:20:14 RRSAgent: draft minutes 15:20:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 15:20:22 ... Waseem is from Syria (working at Netflix) should help us with recruiting from Lebanon, etc 15:20:50 ... Qatar Computing Research Institute, contact was @@@ 15:21:04 s/@@@/Majd Abbar/ 15:21:06 scribenick: Shervin 15:21:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 15:21:28 q+ 15:21:58 Mostafa: We have Sallar this week. He'll introduce himself shortly. Other people are on the list to be contacted. Will update the group. 15:22:59 Sallar: Worked in the web industry for 15 years. Currently with an advertising company in Finland. Interested in topics of Arabic script. 15:23:17 ...Struggling with issues of Arabic-speak over the years in CSS, etc. 15:23:36 ...Javascript and node.js experience. 15:23:48 agenda? 15:24:02 q? 15:24:17 Najib: Calligraphist from Tunesia. 15:24:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:24:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 15:24:27 ...Attend and participate for comments. 15:24:42 agenda? 15:24:57 agenda- 2 15:25:31 take up agendum 3 15:25:44 q+ 15:25:44 q? 15:25:44 Behnam: Agenda item 3. Comments from the participants regarding topic keywords. 15:25:52 q- 15:26:01 q- mostafa 15:26:18 Mostafa: Filed a Github issue. 15:26:21 https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2 15:26:23 q- 15:26:51 Mostafa: Link to Github issue: https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2 15:27:03 q+ 15:27:39 q? 15:27:51 Shervin: Let's see if people have comments, first. 15:27:53 q_ 15:27:56 q- 15:28:21 Shervin: After that we can let Mostafa introduce the Github issue. 15:28:33 r12a: Any ideas about prioritization? 15:28:36 q+ 15:28:59 r12a: Justification and elongation seems to be a priority. 15:29:16 Behnam: Last week we talked about glossary to have a precedence. 15:29:55 Behnam: Justification might depend on previous chapters. 15:29:57 q- 15:30:15 Behnam: We might not have a solid starting point to start that. 15:30:49 r12a: Dig out the questions regarding CSS struggling with Arabic script. 15:31:06 r12a: e.g. letter spacing. 15:32:10 ...How Arabic does letter spacing? Elongation? Instances where the Arabic is streched to fit the width of Latin. 15:32:28 ...There are works being done on vertical text. Specification is needed. 15:33:10 ...Chinese, Mongolian with Arabic embedding. Direction might be different; i.e. read up the line, or down the line. 15:33:23 ...questions regarding first letter styling; drop-caps. 15:33:25 q? 15:33:29 q+ 15:34:03 r12a: There is a document called @@@ where you can define counter styles. 15:34:27 ...these are topics that come to mind. 15:34:43 http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/ 15:34:54 http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/#arabic-styles 15:35:13 r12a: Counter styles document http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/ 15:35:22 q? 15:35:58 Behnam: We can certainly take this and comment on that. 15:36:15 ...Can be done separately as an external source. 15:36:21 q+ 15:37:59 q- 15:38:19 Shervin: prefers to have the groundwork of these topics in alreq. 15:39:11 r12a: Our document is not much of a tech document. We don't comment on correctness of something like counter styles. 15:39:18 ...We just refer to it. 15:39:37 ...And another document can dive deep in terms of technology. 15:40:11 ...We can point to alreq and say that this is the way something can be done, it would be ideal. 15:40:29 ...There are changes needed to be done regarding counter-style document. 15:40:50 action: Behnam to files issues on w3c/predefined-counter-styles regarding naming and content 15:41:00 ...The counter styles document can be changed any time. 15:41:20 RRSAgent: draft minutes 15:41:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 15:41:23 ...Changes can be proposed in a Github issue. 15:41:26 agenda? 15:41:39 q+ 15:41:43 q- 15:41:57 q? 15:42:06 Behnam: Other comments regarding the document. 15:42:35 q- 15:42:59 Shervin: Propose Mostafa to introduce the pull request. 15:43:18 Mostafa: Glyph overlap issues in Arabic. 15:43:50 q+ 15:44:17 q+ 15:44:18 q? 15:44:55 r12a: The nature of the problem of overlap? 15:45:34 Sallar: The opacity of letters on small joined area becomes darker than other places. 15:45:47 ...specifically in letter spacing of minus. 15:45:56 q? 15:46:31 q- 15:47:07 Behnam: The behaviour with letter spacing differs and we can recommend in alreq. 15:48:27 Mostafa: Second item of pull request; separated but still joining arabic letters. 15:48:41 q? 15:48:44 Sallar: Also appear in search. 15:49:17 r12a: CSS working group talked about this. Browsers differ. We should talk in the document and define the expected behaviour. 15:49:32 ...will try to dig out some pointers. 15:49:33 q- r12a 15:49:50 Behnam: Moving to next issue in the pull request. 15:50:10 Mostafa: Mixed script font size. 15:50:43 ...Font size is not the only property that an application might need; e.g. baseline and line-height. 15:50:48 q+ 15:51:15 q+ 15:51:23 Sallar: Line-height is important as well as base-line since letters don't fit in a squre. 15:51:54 q- r12a 15:52:51 Najib: Font size is one of the problems. Mixing with Latin script. Have to play with font size in each language to have them match. This is an issue. 15:52:59 q+ 15:53:19 q+ 15:53:27 q- 15:53:53 q+ 15:53:55 r12a: Mostafa to break this into four separate issues. 15:54:08 q? 15:54:18 q- 15:55:23 ACTION: Mostafa to break this into four separate issues. 15:55:56 q? 15:56:00 ack Shervin 15:56:54 q- 15:57:24 Shervin: No current document available on that. Would be great to cover that. 15:58:21 Najib: Did some test with @@@ and it doesn't work properly in browsers. 15:58:43 ack Sallar 15:59:00 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-size-adjust 15:59:02 q- 15:59:03 s/@@@/CSS Property `font-adjust`/ 15:59:37 Sallar: Had a similar problems. Had to edit the font for multiple cases. 15:59:50 q+ 16:00:21 ack Behnam 16:00:22 ack Behnam 16:00:45 Behnam: CSS font fallback not expected to be used for mixed script. 16:01:17 ...recommendations of HTML/CSS standards is to mark parts of the text. 16:01:51 Behnam: Tech details of CSS is out of scope of our work. Focusing on what is required. 16:01:52 q+ 16:02:16 Behnam: We do not have the tools to generate a situation, we better start generating images. 16:02:24 q? 16:02:31 ack r12a 16:03:13 r12a: Agrees with Behnam. W3C i18n activity writes articles. Anyone interested can engage. 16:03:26 q? 16:03:27 q+ 16:03:58 q- 16:04:38 agenda? 16:04:50 Mostafa: The last item on the pull request; specific section in the document to talk about numbering. 16:05:07 ...Can refer to it from other places of the document 16:05:32 Behnam: Discussion on github issue. 16:05:39 agenda- 3 16:05:55 take up next agendum 16:06:12 Behnam: We have math and poetry as special cases. 16:06:46 ...proposes to add Quran to special cases; because traditionally, there are few specific rules. 16:07:07 ...Also when we get to character level there are special cases. 16:07:31 ...e.g. Harkat glyphs above and below the baseline. 16:07:57 ...Unicode covers most of them. This document can benefit from this coverage. 16:08:23 ...This special cases introduces varies features of Arabic script other than daily usage of the text. 16:08:23 q? 16:08:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:08:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 16:09:02 Behnam: e.g. in Quran manuscripts; a verse (a'yeh) can not span over pages. 16:09:15 q+ 16:09:24 ack Shervin 16:09:46 q+ 16:10:45 q- 16:10:52 ack r12a 16:10:52 an example of poetry layout: https://fa.wikisource.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AB%D9%86%D9%88%DB%8C_%D9%85%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%88%DB%8C/%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%B1_%DA%A9%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86_%DA%A9%DB%8C_%D8%AE%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AA_%D8%B1%D8%A7_%D8%A8%D8%B4%DA%A9%D9%86 16:11:28 r12a: Tom Milo did some proof of concepts for this. 16:11:59 q? 16:12:02 q+ 16:12:08 ...Is wondering if how the special case of Quran is related to the web. 16:12:09 ack mostafa 16:12:46 Mostafa: Put it as a Github issue. Treating Quran as a special case; has lots of typographic requirements. 16:12:47 action: Behnam to file github issues for special cases, like Quran 16:13:04 ...Some of these reqs might not be specific to Quran. 16:13:33 ...See the requirements that Quranic case requires and see if it's limited to Quran. 16:13:34 q+ 16:13:39 q- 16:13:42 q? 16:13:47 q+ 16:14:25 agenda? 16:14:41 Najib: Knows contacts in Morrocan ministry of religious affairs and can contact. 16:14:43 q+ 16:14:56 q- 16:15:21 Behnam: Remind everyone that it would be great to collect information regarding the tools used for the purpose. 16:16:21 q+ 16:16:25 action: Gather information about Arabic-specific Typesetting software 16:16:35 ack RRSAgent 16:16:43 ack r12a 16:17:05 r12a: Poetry and math in addition of Quranic text? 16:17:12 http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/ 16:17:17 Behnam: These are special cases. Many issues to consider. 16:17:41 r12a: Introduces a document on math http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/ 16:18:32 Behnam: When we get to math there are other sources as Arabic LaTeX distro. 16:18:35 q+ 16:18:38 q? 16:19:53 Shervin: This is a good example of how can we refer to a document and not get into the details. 16:19:53 ack Shervin 16:20:38 Behnam: Agrees that we can refer to the document. It's a complicated matter. 16:20:57 ...To keep it separate from MathML would be good as well. 16:21:15 agenda? 16:21:17 agenda? 16:21:27 q+ 16:21:28 agenda- 4 16:21:30 take up next agendum 16:22:20 scribenick: r12a 16:22:26 action: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to exclude that in the first version 16:22:39 RSSAgent, Scribe: Behnam 16:23:03 shervin: 2 possible approaches: 16:23:35 ... (1) look at sources and create a base glossary, eg copy from jlreq and other docs 16:23:47 ... just need to add trnaslations and definitions 16:23:53 ... ie. seed glossary 16:24:06 ... (2) create the glossary as we create text 16:24:17 s/trnaslations/translations/ 16:24:20 ... so you create the glossary as you need new terms 16:24:32 ... my preference is (1) 16:24:39 ... what do people think? 16:24:42 q? 16:24:42 q+ 16:24:50 q- 16:24:58 a mixe of 1 and 2 16:24:58 ack Behnam 16:25:03 scribenick: Shervin 16:25:19 behnam: i think we implicitly agreed on approach (1) last week 16:25:21 Behnam: Implicitly decided to talk the first approach. 16:25:54 q+ 16:25:55 Najib: I prefer (1), but (2) is implied by (1). 16:26:10 q? 16:26:14 ack r12a 16:26:33 r12a: Planning to do a bit of both. 16:26:34 q+ 16:26:43 r12a: Not let it hold up. 16:26:59 q? 16:27:11 Behnam: I hear that we don't want to be block by glossary. 16:27:34 r12a: We can do approach (1) straight-away, but work on the content at the same time. 16:27:43 Behnam: Agrees. 16:28:08 +1 16:28:10 Shervin: Certainly can do it in parallel. 16:28:18 Behnam: +1 to Shervin 16:28:21 +1 16:28:30 +1 16:28:30 agenda? 16:28:33 +1 16:29:00 q+ 16:29:03 Shervin: Volunteers to put a seed glossary together. 16:29:12 q- 16:29:39 q+ 16:30:07 Sallar: Can help with the glossary. 16:30:14 q? 16:30:16 Najib: Can help with glossary. 16:30:30 r12a: Good to ask on the list if Azzedine can help as well. 16:30:36 q- 16:30:59 action: Shervin to lead developing the Glossary and ask for volunteers on the list 16:31:07 agend- 5 16:31:27 q+ 16:31:30 agenda- 5 16:31:40 agenda? 16:31:45 agenda- 6 16:31:47 q+ 16:31:55 agenda? 16:32:12 action? 16:33:58 action: Richard to figure out how to maintain action items 16:35:05 ACTION: Shervin, work with Najib and Sallar and Waseem regarding the glossary. 16:35:19 OK 16:35:31 Behnam: Final comments? 16:36:02 ...Thanks the participants. Will send an agenda. 16:36:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:36:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html r12a 16:36:31 zakim, bye 16:36:31 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been najib, r12a, Shervin, mostafa, Sallar, Behnam, Waseem 16:36:31 Zakim has left #alreq 16:36:33 Najib has left #alreq 16:37:14 action? 16:37:33 rrsagent, bye 16:37:33 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-actions.rdf : 16:37:33 ACTION: Behnam to files issues on w3c/predefined-counter-styles regarding naming and content [1] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T15-40-50 16:37:33 ACTION: Mostafa to break this into four separate issues. [2] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T15-55-23 16:37:33 ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases, like Quran [3] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-12-47 16:37:33 ACTION: Gather information about Arabic-specific Typesetting software [4] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-16-25 16:37:33 ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to exclude that in the first version [5] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-22-26 16:37:33 ACTION: Shervin to lead developing the Glossary and ask for volunteers on the list [6] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-30-59 16:37:33 ACTION: Richard to figure out how to maintain action items [7] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-33-58 16:37:33 ACTION: Shervin, work with Najib and Sallar and Waseem regarding the glossary. [8] 16:37:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc#T16-35-05