14:30:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:30:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/05-dpub-irc
14:30:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:30:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:30:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:30:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:30:14 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2015
14:30:23 <ivan> chair: Markus
14:30:34 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/ff032a2089a747a1b356c5a803f58360@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com
14:31:07 <ivan> Regrets: Peter, Nick, Tzviya, Ayla, Luc
14:38:37 <rego> rego has joined #dpub
14:48:09 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
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14:58:23 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
14:58:52 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
14:59:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:01:12 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #dpub
15:01:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:01:31 <dkaplan3> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan
15:01:33 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_Gylling
15:01:38 <brady_duga> present+ duga
15:03:09 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:03:28 <mgylling>  http://www.w3.org/2015/09/28-dpub-minutes.html
15:03:31 <dauwhe> mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
15:03:38 <dauwhe> ... any objections?
15:03:45 <dauwhe> [silence]
15:03:50 <dauwhe> ... minutes are approved
15:03:56 <mgylling>  http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/
15:03:59 <dauwhe> mgylling: topic: PWP Draft Note
15:04:18 <dauwhe> ... our intent is to publish as FPWD as soon as possible
15:04:37 <dauwhe> ... there are few outstanding issues to solve with comments from Leonard and Bill
15:04:51 <dauwhe> ... we felt generally that we're good enough for FPWD
15:05:06 <dauwhe> ivan: there was some discussion about relationship to epub
15:05:14 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
15:05:15 <dauwhe> ... and how we position vis a vis epub
15:05:22 <dauwhe> q+
15:05:29 <dauwhe> ivan: two big changes:
15:05:32 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:05:44 <dauwhe> ... first, that it is "publications" rather than "documents"
15:06:04 <dauwhe> ... second, is that we seemed to get consensus on the states of web publications
15:06:14 <dauwhe> ... so there are two sections for terminology
15:06:16 <ivan> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/incorporate-states-in-text/index.html
15:06:20 <dauwhe> ... I have an unmerged version
15:06:26 <dauwhe> ... where I adopted this terminology
15:06:39 <dauwhe> ... if we agree I can merge
15:06:47 <dauwhe> ... the third issue is the relationship to epub
15:06:59 <dauwhe> ... a general agreement with Leonard and Bill
15:07:06 <dauwhe> ... I removed references to epub from main text
15:07:24 <ivan> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#epub-relations
15:07:39 <dauwhe> ... instead a separate section (appendix) at end of document where there is explicit reference
15:07:47 <dauwhe> ... I think this is way better and cleaner
15:07:58 <dauwhe> ... this text is took from previous text and some from Bill
15:08:09 <dauwhe> s/took/taken/
15:08:17 <dauwhe> ... I think these are the main changes
15:08:32 <dauwhe> ... at this moment I don't have any pending issues
15:08:54 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
15:08:56 <dauwhe> ... unless there are major disagreements with content, I think it's way beyond the level of usual FPWD
15:08:56 <mgylling> ack dau
15:09:07 <Vlad> present+
15:09:16 <Karen> Dave: I have been getting some pushback on the relationship with EPUB in this document
15:09:19 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
15:09:40 <Karen> Dave: first one, does text in an appendix have the same force in a W3C doc as it would elsewhere?
15:09:43 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #dpub
15:09:44 <Karen> Ivan: Two answers
15:09:47 <Karen> present+ Karen
15:09:59 <Karen> Ivan: Question whether it should be a section or an appendix
15:10:06 <Karen> …I have no preference
15:10:10 <Karen> …This is an IG note
15:10:20 <Karen> …not same standing as a WG
15:10:30 <Karen> …we always make a distinction if normative or not normative
15:10:35 <Karen> …An appendix can be normative
15:10:43 <Karen> …it is not part of the main story so to say
15:10:46 <Karen> …Take an example
15:10:54 <Karen> …If we have a vocabulary that we define in a document
15:11:03 <Karen> …it may include the precise OWL specification, so it is normative
15:11:10 <Karen> …I am ok if we say it should be a section
15:11:14 <Karen> Dave: That was not a big hting
15:11:20 <Karen> s/hting/thing
15:11:25 <Karen> Dave: The last paragraph
15:11:30 <Karen> …[quotes]
15:11:46 <Karen> …I wonder if we don't necessarily have to mention EPUB around this
15:11:53 <Karen> …but wonder if we make this more obvious in the document
15:12:06 <Karen> …I feel that some of the back and forth on this has perhaps obscured that point
15:12:14 <Karen> Markus: hmmm
15:12:25 <Karen> Dave: Especially if it's being read by people who are not part of the current discussion
15:12:34 <Karen> …We first mention HTML in section 3.2 or something
15:12:38 <Karen> Ivan: So the real question is
15:12:43 <Karen> …which section should that be?
15:12:58 <Karen> …I am not against what you say; purely editorial POV trying to see where this section would go in the story
15:13:11 <Karen> Dave: I don't think I have anything in mind right now; would take some time to think of it
15:13:18 <Karen> …I think it's a key part of our message
15:13:27 <Karen> …We are not talking about throwing away the key OWP stack
15:13:39 <rego> rego has joined #dpub
15:13:53 <Karen> …Some people in the discussion perhaps have tried to frame the discussion to other document formats not within the W3C's purview
15:13:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:13:58 <Karen> Ivan: What about the following
15:14:13 <Karen> …First, I think that the paragraph as it stands now can stay
15:14:18 <Karen> …repeating is not a problem
15:14:20 <mgylling> q?
15:14:35 <Karen> …What about at end of 4.1 where we define web resource and what portable web document is
15:14:53 <Karen> …add a note, as a consequence of talking about web resources, that consist of HTML blah blah
15:14:57 <Karen> Dave: yes, that would be helpful
15:15:02 <Karen> Ivan: I will do this today or tomorrow morning
15:15:12 <Karen> …Ok to make those changes and send a pointer tomorrow
15:15:16 <Karen> …and then you give a green light?
15:15:25 <Karen> Dave: yes, that is fine; I don't want to slow down the machinery
15:15:30 <Karen> Ivan: that is a fair comment
15:15:43 <Karen> Markus: Seems to be the potential scope on clarity that you raise, Dave, about what we mean by content
15:15:59 <Karen> …is something that would be a really good discussion to have during FBWD
15:16:15 <Karen> …if Ivan's latest edits suffice, that's good, if not, we can still make more changes
15:16:21 <Karen> s/FBWD/FPWD
15:16:38 <mgylling> q?
15:16:39 <Karen> Dave: Some people are concerned about what message is sent even at the first public working draft stage
15:16:41 <Karen> ack Bill
15:16:43 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
15:16:49 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:16:52 <Karen> Bill: I have two quick points
15:17:01 <Karen> q+
15:17:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the fundamental issue isn't throwing away OWP spec
15:17:13 <dauwhe> ... but accomodating things outside OWP spec
15:17:21 <dauwhe> ... in the 4.1 definition of web resource
15:17:36 <dauwhe> ... it says who's content can be accessed through network protocols
15:17:44 <dauwhe> ... for example, word docs
15:17:55 <dauwhe> ... which can be accessed but not rendered
15:18:18 <dauwhe> ivan: the statement is clear paragraph that should be put after series of definitions
15:18:27 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we want to avoid possible misinterpretation
15:18:29 <dauwhe> mgylling: right
15:18:43 <dauwhe> ivan: or maybe even an additional bullet point under web publication definition
15:18:56 <dauwhe> ... the resources are primarily
15:19:06 <dauwhe> .. for example, a PWP may include a CVS file
15:19:16 <dauwhe> ... I don't want to make a strong black and white thing
15:19:31 <mgylling> ack Karen
15:19:34 <dauwhe> ... the resources are "primarily" OWP resources like HTML that makes it clearer
15:19:40 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that wouldd be good
15:19:53 <dauwhe> Karen: what's the desired timeline for publishing the doc and letting people know
15:19:58 <dauwhe> ... and building a nice story around that
15:20:15 <dauwhe> mgylling: it seems to me that we want to make a final round this week based on feedback today
15:20:27 <dauwhe> ... I don't see decision on this call, but perhaps next week
15:20:32 <dauwhe> q+
15:20:45 <dauwhe> ivan: the practical problem is timing
15:20:50 <dauwhe> ... next tuesday I will be out
15:20:58 <mgylling> q?
15:21:03 <dauwhe> ... if I finish everything the 15th can be pub date
15:21:12 <dauwhe> ... then we get into moratorium
15:21:19 <dauwhe> ... we could still publish on 20th
15:21:25 <dauwhe> ... then I'm unavailable for a while
15:21:39 <dauwhe> ... next week monday we must make decision if we want this published before TPAC
15:21:55 <dauwhe> mgylling: that's columbus day
15:22:10 <mgylling> q?
15:22:28 <dauwhe> ivan: we can make a decision today, we agree to publish providing these changes are made, and there are no objections
15:22:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to the strategy Ivan just suggested
15:22:35 <dauwhe> ... then we can start the process
15:22:39 <mgylling> ack dau
15:22:42 <Vlad> Columbus dya isn't a widely recognized holiday, most companies have a regular business day
15:22:54 <Vlad> s/dya/day/
15:23:31 <dauwhe> dauwhe: EPUB31 is meeting this week
15:23:53 <dauwhe> mgylling: that wasn't a counterargument?
15:24:20 <dauwhe> ivan: it just means possible objections should be entertained until next Monday
15:24:38 <rego> rego has joined #dpub
15:24:40 <dauwhe> ivan: before we do that, the group must agree on the short name, the stable URI for the doc
15:24:48 <dauwhe> ... at the moment it's PWP
15:25:06 <dauwhe> ... we don't have to have dpub-pwp or just regular pwp
15:25:40 <dauwhe> mgylling: record in the minutes that we're doing a consensus call on publishing FPWD on October 15
15:25:59 <dauwhe> ivan: we do preliminary agreement now
15:26:16 <dauwhe> mgylling: let's do preliminary call for consensus on publishing on October 15
15:26:30 <dauwhe> ... we have until Monday Oct 12 for comments and objections
15:26:42 <dauwhe> Vlad: Columbus day is not widely recognized holiday
15:26:50 <dauwhe> ... schools are out but that's about it
15:27:39 <dauwhe> Karen: many businesses don't take the holiday
15:27:44 <dauwhe> mgylling: let's meet next week
15:27:58 <dauwhe> ... let's spend this week reviewing Ivan's edits and any other final edits
15:28:12 <mgylling> q?
15:28:13 <dauwhe> ... goal is to decide next monday to publish
15:28:41 <dauwhe> mgylling: are we ready to move on?
15:28:45 <mgylling> q?
15:28:46 <dauwhe> [all] yes!
15:28:53 <Karen> q+
15:29:03 <dauwhe> mgylling: topic: quick info around CSS inline
15:29:05 <mgylling> ack karen
15:29:22 <dauwhe> Karen: the second part of my question is what kind of message that we hope to see?
15:29:33 <dauwhe> ... what is an appropriate takeaway for publishing this?
15:29:39 <dauwhe> ... shout from rooftops?
15:29:49 <dauwhe> ... Bill McCoy and I communicated about this
15:30:03 <dauwhe> ... what's the big takeaway from this? What's the story?
15:30:17 <dauwhe> mgylling: should we schedule time to go through that next Monday?
15:30:22 <dauwhe> Karen: OK. That's fine.
15:30:28 <dauwhe> q+
15:30:35 <dauwhe> Karen: we can deal with it
15:30:38 <Karen> ack Dave
15:30:39 <mgylling> q?
15:30:44 <mgylling> ack dau
15:30:49 <Karen> Dave: Just a comment on the message around the release of this document
15:30:55 <Karen> …be a little careful about
15:31:03 <Karen> …my AC Rep will have significant opinions about this
15:31:11 <Karen> Ivan: Maybe you can ask
15:31:27 <Karen> Dave: I can explicitly ask him for what specific messaging to have around this
15:31:42 <Karen> Ivan: and do we want a press release, a blog, the level of noise to have around this
15:31:59 <Karen> Markus: Le'ts talk about this properly next Monday with NIck and Karen; and they will have some additional input then as well
15:32:05 <mgylling> q?
15:32:13 <ivan> Topic: CSS inline
15:32:15 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
15:32:25 <Karen> Markus: Tell us about CSS inline
15:32:39 <Karen> Dave; The big news is the initial letter shifts in Safari; it works in my iphone
15:32:47 <Karen> Ivan: And Safari on the desktop?
15:32:55 <Karen> Dave: I believe it will; it is in the release notes
15:33:06 <Karen> …I believe people who have installed latest version have been making MOs
15:33:09 <Karen> …Every sign points to that
15:33:17 <Karen> …bad news is that it's really buggy, unfortunately
15:33:18 <mgylling>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Sep/0139.html
15:33:21 <Karen> Ivan: you can't get it all
15:33:29 <Karen> Dave: someone should have written a few tests
15:33:36 <Karen> …we have also published another working draft of the spec
15:33:44 <Karen> …and continuing to work on internationalization
15:33:51 <Karen> …it's a significantly hard problem with this feature
15:34:06 <Karen> …So a) hoping to nail down CJK issues since I'll be surrounded by experts
15:34:09 <Karen> …at TPAC
15:34:17 <Karen> …and reach out to the type setting community since we have questions about that
15:34:28 <Karen> Markus: Cool; anything you need from the IG in terms of CSS inline
15:34:39 <Karen> Dave: I think the useful thing is good technical knowledge of other scripts
15:34:51 <Karen> …especially Hebrew, Arabic and Indic scripts
15:34:59 <Karen> …If anyone knows about Arabic I would love to talk to you
15:35:12 <Karen> Markus: Might want to repeat that question on the list for those who are not here today
15:35:15 <mgylling> q?
15:35:22 <Karen> Dave: I think we are going to write up a questionnaires on the lanagues
15:35:26 <Karen> s/languages
15:35:37 <Karen> …Maybe broadcast through group if initial attempts fail
15:35:50 <Karen> Markus: no one on queue; congratulations, Dave and good luck with the rest of the work
15:35:55 <Karen> …any additional comments?
15:35:59 <Karen> q+
15:36:10 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:36:10 <mgylling> ack karen
15:36:23 <dauwhe> Karen: you mentioned this is in safari. Any other browsers?
15:36:46 <Karen> Dave: I don't have any…I know Blink has mentioned there is a higher level feature that they are not interested in implementing
15:36:53 <Karen> …they have no problems implementing if other browsers do it
15:37:28 <ivan> Regrets+ Zheng_Xu
15:37:32 <mgylling> q?
15:37:38 <rego> rego has joined #dpub
15:37:46 <dauwhe> mgylling: several meaty topics left
15:37:49 <Karen> Dave: No other particular news
15:37:49 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/extended-description-analysis.html
15:38:02 <Karen> scribenick: dauwhe
15:38:07 <dauwhe> ... the link to the table that M. Cooper of PF has been building
15:38:13 <ivan> Topic: Extended Description Analysis with PF
15:38:15 <dauwhe> ... we had a lot of activity around this a while ago
15:38:18 <dauwhe> ... but work is not done
15:38:33 <dauwhe> ... Michael and rest of folks in PF have asked for input on completing
15:38:34 <dkaplan3> q+
15:38:43 <dauwhe> ... Tzviya sent an email about this
15:38:49 <mgylling> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0011.html
15:38:59 <dauwhe> ... about what kind of input he wants
15:39:09 <dauwhe> ... wherever there are question marks, input is requested
15:39:13 <dauwhe> ... or empty cells
15:39:28 <dauwhe> ... so we should be doing work to properly analyze this
15:39:42 <dauwhe> ... this was on agenda of a11y call last fri
15:39:46 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: it was on agenda
15:39:55 <dauwhe> ... the grid is very good but there are clarifications we want
15:40:01 <dauwhe> ... some things are hard to read
15:40:16 <dauwhe> ... a couple of rows where we're not convinced it's a meaningful requirement
15:40:27 <dauwhe> ... we're putting together some feedback over the next two weeks
15:40:32 <dauwhe> ... to have ready before TPAC
15:40:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: will feedback be circulated?
15:40:50 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: if group is interested.
15:40:55 <dauwhe> ivan: I am interested
15:41:10 <dauwhe> mgylling: please circulate through list for review
15:41:21 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: feedback from the wider group is welcome in any form
15:41:24 <mgylling> q?
15:41:31 <mgylling> ack dkaplan
15:41:39 <dauwhe> mgylling: what does this mean in terms of time
15:41:51 <dauwhe> ... we can do PWP consensus next week, talk about outreach
15:42:01 <dauwhe> ... we could have dedicated session to look at your stuff
15:42:07 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: I don't think we'll be ready
15:42:12 <dauwhe> ... charles is still on holiday
15:42:23 <dauwhe> ... Tzviya has been away
15:42:36 <mgylling> q?
15:42:49 <dauwhe> mgylling: that train has left the station in terms of getting this done
15:42:53 <dauwhe> s/that/the/
15:43:10 <dauwhe> mgylling: unless there are comments on table, next event will be draft reply from dkaplan3
15:43:22 <dauwhe> mgylling: questions?
15:43:28 <dauwhe> ... let's move on
15:43:36 <dauwhe> ... TPAC sessions
15:43:49 <dauwhe> ... I missed the planning call
15:43:58 <dauwhe> ... I know that outreach has begun
15:44:11 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't know about timing
15:44:16 <dauwhe> ... session wish list
15:44:20 <mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Oct_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Schedule
15:44:28 <dauwhe> ... Tzviya sent out feelers to all of those
15:44:44 <dauwhe> ... from Webapps, which is relevant for service workers and also for packaging
15:44:50 <dauwhe> ... strange situation
15:45:04 <dauwhe> ... better talk to TAG,
15:45:20 <dauwhe> ... Webapp meeting is Mon-Tue, as most won't be around for our meeting
15:45:45 <dauwhe> ... chair of webapps has sent mail to his own group asking for review about service workers, and whether some of them can talk to us
15:45:47 <mgylling> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0017.html
15:45:52 <dauwhe> ... she has talked to PF, CSS...
15:45:58 <dauwhe> ... don't know what the dates are
15:46:03 <dauwhe> ... annotations update
15:46:16 <dauwhe> ... maybe some of us should go to annotations meeting
15:46:29 <dauwhe> ... identifiers are scary
15:46:37 <dauwhe> ... that's a topic for Bill
15:46:48 <dauwhe> ... Daniel was happy on doing a session on POM
15:46:56 <dauwhe> ... a11y is for Deborah and Charles
15:47:10 <dauwhe> ... having a meeting with HTML doesn't make much sense
15:47:22 <dauwhe> ivan: these are the external group meetings
15:47:25 <dauwhe> q+
15:47:34 <dauwhe> mgylling: identifiers is an internal discussion
15:47:35 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
15:47:41 <mgylling> q?
15:47:43 <dauwhe> ... Bill_Kasdorf, can you dial in?
15:47:55 <dauwhe> [silence]
15:48:02 <mgylling> ack dau
15:48:40 <rego> rego has joined #dpub
15:48:48 <dauwhe> dauwhe: EPUB31 has an alternative to web manifest spec
15:48:55 <dauwhe> mgylling: we could talk about that ourselves
15:49:03 <dauwhe> ... it may be a bit early
15:49:23 <mgylling> q?
15:49:29 <dauwhe> ivan: I think there's more that's worth doing
15:49:37 <dauwhe> ... in epub31 there are subgroups
15:49:43 <dauwhe> ... the main points are set
15:49:55 <dauwhe> ... some of them are very internal to IDPF like reorg of documentation
15:50:01 <dauwhe> ... but others are relevant to this IG
15:50:11 <dauwhe> ... giving a list of those, and what the issues are is relevant
15:50:16 <dauwhe> ... like serialization
15:50:30 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think I know what input we would get ;)
15:50:39 <dauwhe> ... that's one internal session idea
15:50:41 <mgylling> q?
15:50:50 <dauwhe> ... are there others who want to suggest things?
15:51:02 <dauwhe> ivan: we can do it when you are back from NYC
15:51:41 <dauwhe> ivan: who intends to dial in and when?
15:52:15 <dauwhe> mgylling: maybe we should edit participants table to allow registration as virtual participant
15:52:34 <dauwhe> ... the final item was should we meet on Columbus day?
15:52:37 <dauwhe> ... yes
15:53:06 <mgylling> q?
15:53:15 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think we are done for today
15:53:27 <dauwhe> ... Ivan will be pushing edits on the PWP draft
15:53:40 <dauwhe> ... and Dave will talk to "stakeholders" to gather feedback
15:53:55 <dauwhe> ... so we will feel good about the doc next Monday
15:54:04 <dauwhe> ... thanks to Dave and Karen for scribing
16:00:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/05-dpub-minutes.html ivan
16:00:30 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
16:00:30 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:00:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Dave_Cramer, Ivan_Herman, Bill_Kasdorf, Deborah_Kaplan, Markus_Gylling, duga, Ben_De_Meester, Vlad, Karen
16:00:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/05-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
16:00:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:00:39 <RRSAgent> I see no action items