13:59:17 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:59:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-tt-irc 13:59:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:59:19 Zakim has joined #tt 13:59:21 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:59:21 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:59:22 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:59:22 Date: 01 October 2015 14:00:22 mike has joined #tt 14:01:09 Present: nigel 14:01:11 Chair: nigel 14:01:16 Scribe: nigel 14:01:49 Present+ mike 14:02:38 Present+ tmichel 14:02:54 Present+ pal 14:03:05 pal has joined #tt 14:03:18 Present+ Frans 14:04:07 Frans has joined #tt 14:06:32 Present+ Courtney 14:06:40 Present+ Andreas 14:08:06 atai has joined #tt 14:08:18 Present+ pal 14:10:18 plh has joined #tt 14:11:21 Topic: This meeting 14:11:32 Present+ plh 14:11:32 present+ plh 14:14:01 nigel: We'll cover TPAC, IMSC, TTML and WebVTT mapping, short profile names registry, WebVTT 14:14:15 nigel: AOB? 14:14:35 mike: Can we cover IANA registration under the profile registry section? 14:14:42 nigel: Yes. 14:15:01 Topic: TPAC 2015 14:16:15 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2015 14:17:35 nigel: Opening up so people have the opportunity to raise questions, issues, agenda topic suggestions etc. 14:17:47 group: nothing for now 14:18:04 Topic: IMSC 14:18:11 action-424? 14:18:11 action-424 -- Thierry Michel to Download and upload to implementation report page the test render mp4 -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN 14:18:11 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/424 14:18:34 tmichel: That's done - it can be closed. 14:18:51 close action-424 14:18:51 Closed action-424. 14:19:41 action-425? 14:19:42 action-425 -- Thierry Michel to Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc. -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN 14:19:42 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/425 14:20:16 tmichel: I've reminded all the implementors that we pinged and thanked the implementor who sent us the MP4 file. 14:20:35 tmichel: I think pal has a new implementor? 14:20:44 pal: I've asked them for the right contact so as soon as I know I'll let you know. 14:21:06 action-425: [meeting 2015-10-01] leaving open pending a new implementor - pal to tell tmichel when he knows 14:21:06 Notes added to action-425 Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc.. 14:21:41 Topic: TTML and WebVTT Mapping Document 14:22:14 tmichel: I think the proposal for the short name is ttml-webvtt-mapping 14:22:33 ... It's not so short but its fine by me if everyone's okay with that. We had agreement from David and Nigel proposed it. 14:22:35 ttw-map 14:22:57 Courtney: I think it's fine. 14:23:00 Andreas: I think so also. 14:23:21 nigel: I think we've got consensus! 14:23:30 plh: I think that's the best one otherwise it will be hard to remember. 14:23:55 tmichel: Now I need to ask plh to agree to it! 14:24:13 plh: I'm happy to agree but you still need to send an email to the chairs list. Consider it approved. 14:24:19 tmichel: Okay I'll send to you CC chairs. 14:24:23 plh: Thank you 14:24:29 action-427? 14:24:29 action-427 -- Nigel Megitt to Write up an issue for webvtt for chapterisation etc. -- due 2015-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:24:29 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/427 14:24:36 issue-447? 14:24:36 issue-447 -- Mapping is only for presentation, i.e. subtitle and captions, and other types of WebVTT document are possible -- raised 14:24:36 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/447 14:24:43 close action-427 14:24:43 Closed action-427. 14:25:41 nigel: I did this - it's issue-447. Is that okay Courtney and Andreas? 14:26:09 Andreas: I had a quick view on this issue, as with others. For a lot of the mapping issues I 14:26:22 ... propose that we postpone the detailed discussion to TPAC where we can have a closer look 14:26:30 ... at the issues with time to think about them beforehand. 14:26:41 reopen issue-447 14:26:41 Re-opened issue-447. 14:26:50 action-426? 14:26:50 action-426 -- Thierry Michel to Tmichel to work with courtney to get the ttml webvtt mapping to look right with respec -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN 14:26:50 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/426 14:27:09 Courtney: It's perfectly beautiful now! 14:27:13 close action-426 14:27:13 Closed action-426. 14:27:24 issue-415? 14:27:24 issue-415 -- TTML2 is confusing -- pending review 14:27:24 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/415 14:28:03 Courtney: We changed the mapping TTML profile name to TVTT to avoid the 2 14:28:51 mike: It's better. The 2 was my main concern. I wonder if people might be confused by the 'TV' in it. 14:29:07 Andreas: I think we should leave it for now and if we find a better name later we can still change to it. 14:29:14 mike: I'm good with this. 14:29:20 close issue-415 14:29:20 Closed issue-415. 14:30:11 Andreas: I want to thank everyone who has looked at the document and raised feedback. 14:30:25 ... I think all the issues are very valuable. I'd encourage everyone to look at the complete 14:30:43 ... document before TPAC. The TVTT profile has had a lot of focus but it's only a part of it. 14:31:04 ... I think it's really important to look at this as a complete document and then discuss it and 14:31:09 ... see the profile as one part of it only. 14:31:24 mike: I didn't file an issue on this but there's been reflector traffic. I remained concerned that 14:31:35 ... when we're all done with this mapping activity then the subset that results won't meet 14:31:48 ... anyone's needs. I won't raise an issue until we're done. But if the resulting profile doesn't 14:32:06 ... for example allow us to create captions that meet FCC needs then it won't get used. 14:32:19 Courtney: Mike, I understand and share your concern but it's hard to address such a high level 14:32:31 ... statement. It would be good to have the analysis to show us what's missing. 14:32:45 mike: Absolutely - and that's why I haven't filed an issue. 14:32:58 Courtney: When you talk about the 708 features, there may not be complete support for every 14:33:01 ... 708 feature. 14:33:21 mike: IMSC is pretty tight on 708 and I thought WebVTT was too. The burden is on me to 14:33:28 ... suggest any issues or raise specific concerns. 14:33:51 Andreas: The comment and pal's on the reflector are very helpful. But the document has more 14:34:03 ... as well - the profile is only there to be helpful for the process of conversion. The document 14:34:24 ... itself targets all kinds of TTML documents not just one profile. If there are implications then 14:34:39 ... we can discuss that at TPAC. At the moment we really thought of all the TTML documents 14:34:50 ... that are produced at the moment and how they can be translated into WebVTT. Of course 14:35:04 ... it's not the only mapping. We're also looking at the WebVTT to TTML mapping. We should 14:35:10 ... keep this in mind when we discuss the issue. 14:35:28 mike: I understand the exercise. It's an important issue and it's good that this work has been done. 14:35:49 ... I'd note that IMSC1 and EBU-TT have been getting the most attention, so it's important to 14:35:55 ... keep them in mind when we do this exercise. 14:36:10 pal: I understand the engineering process but I'm also trying to anticipate what users might 14:36:29 ... see in the document, which could be different. They might naturally try to follow the profile 14:36:43 ... for authoring for ease of conversion. There may be options, but I'm not super excited by 14:36:46 ... the status quo. 14:36:58 Andreas: I agree there are several options. This is something we should discuss at TPAC. 14:37:13 ... One option is to bring the profile closer to an existing one that will be used in practice. 14:37:28 ... Another is to highlight that this possibly is not the right starting profile, and you may still 14:37:49 ... need to do mapping from e.g. EBU-TT-D and IMSC to this profile. 14:38:02 ... What we tried to achieve is to bring TTML document structure as close as possible to WebVTT. 14:38:11 ... That is of course much tighter than what is written in EBU-TT-D and IMSC. 14:38:26 pal: Another possibility is that if we find out we're 90-95% there and the remaining 5-10% 14:38:41 ... are found to be not relevant we may wish to rethink IMSC 1 or EBU-TT-D. 14:38:43 Andreas: Agreed. 14:39:01 mike: I second what pal said. If we're really close and we can tweak other profiles to bring them 14:39:09 ... into alignment then we should bear that in mind. 14:39:30 Courtney: We should continue this at TPAC. The charter deliverable doesn't focus on a particular 14:39:32 ... profile. 14:39:48 mike: Sure. And please don't take our concerns as a criticism of the work. It's really important 14:40:04 ... and we wouldn't be having this discussion without the work. Let's work towards interoperability. 14:40:20 pal: I second that. If we'd found that TTML and WebVTT could be converted losslessly then 14:40:28 ... we wouldn't be having this conversation either. 14:40:33 Courtney: Right. 14:40:48 Andreas: I agree. I think this is a good approach too. We did notice that IMSC is an important 14:41:14 q+ 14:41:16 ... reference. We did discuss that in Las Vegas. At the moment we hope that the TVTT profile 14:41:36 q- 14:41:39 ... should be a subset of IMSC. As pal and mike both said it's possible to do a bit of tweaking 14:42:00 ... to get to alignment. I hope that at TPAC we can turn this into concrete actions. 14:42:22 Topic: Profile short name registry 14:42:34 action-428? 14:42:34 action-428 -- Thierry Michel to Check if we can update the ttml iana media registration in a standalone note or if we need to do it in a rec -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN 14:42:34 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/428 14:43:16 mike: I can summarise. A number of W3C registrations have been done using WG Notes. About 14:43:32 ... half a dozen. Clearly if it's a Rec then you want to follow up. For reasons I don't know some 14:43:45 ... groups have used Notes, so W3C can do that. It looks like they are exceptions that need 14:44:05 ... Director approval. The action would be to draft a note and push up to the Director. 14:44:21 tmichel: Yes, that's what I understood from plh's email too. 14:44:56 mike: I think that email was pretty clear. So the question is, unless there's an objection, I'll 14:45:20 ... draft a note and we'll follow the processes to get into a publishable state. 14:45:30 ... There are actually 2 things: the registry itself and the media registration note. 14:45:54 nigel: I don't have a view - I don't see why they shouldn't be in the same note - it may make 14:46:10 ... the process easier. 14:47:24 PROPOSAL: Draft a WG Note describing the profile short name registry and updating the IANA media registration, based on what's in the current profile registry wiki page plus the addition of the codec parameter to the existing TTML registration. 14:47:34 nigel: Does that address Cyril's concern about using the codec profile? 14:47:52 mike: Yes, without going into all the details, the RFC is out of date, but we can independently 14:48:05 ... proceed here with tidying up, to resolve any public use or adoption. Cyril is concerned 14:49:00 ... more globally about non-W3C infrastructure issues. We can solve ours locally. 14:49:32 s/TTML/TTML media type 14:49:54 RESOLUTION: We will draft a WG Note describing the profile short name registry and updating the IANA media registration, based on what's in the current profile registry wiki page plus the addition of the codec parameter to the existing TTML media type registration. 14:50:40 Action: mdolan draft a WG note for the profile short name registry and TTML media type registration 14:50:43 Created ACTION-429 - Draft a wg note for the profile short name registry and ttml media type registration [on Mike Dolan - due 2015-10-08]. 14:51:20 close action-428 14:51:20 Closed action-428. 14:51:50 Topic: WebVTT 14:52:45 nigel: I think the question is about the WebVTT editor's draft 14:52:52 Courtney: Which issue? 14:53:06 tmichel: It seems that the editors are not able to publish on W3C. 14:53:17 Courtney: I think this is resolved. Simon Pieters is the new editor. He moved the spec to the 14:53:33 ... whatwg repository on github and we asked him to move it back, which I believe he agreed 14:53:39 ... to do, though he hasn't done it yet. 14:54:14 tmichel: It would be nice to have Simon call into a meeting. 14:54:23 nigel: I believe he's not a participant in the TTWG. 14:54:30 ... Does that cause us any difficulties? 14:54:40 Courtney: We're working on the spec regardless of its location. 14:55:19 nigel: Does it cause us any difficulties having an Editor who is a member of the WG? 14:55:28 tmichel: Not immediately - Opera is a member. 14:56:03 tmichel: So it's Opera who has made the commitment. 14:56:10 s/tmichel/pal 14:56:14 s/tmichel/pal 14:56:20 s/pal/plh 14:56:21 s/pal/plh 14:56:36 plh: The last draft was in 2014. Is it time to update it? 14:56:49 Courtney: I think we need to move more aggressively on this spec. The goal is to get to CR by 14:57:05 ... November and PR by March 2016. As part of that I have several action items. I need to update 14:57:24 ... the diff against the FPWD, and we're also working through ~80 open issues. We closed 8 of 14:57:28 ... them yesterday. 14:57:40 plh: My recommendation is don't wait for all of that to be done before updating the draft. 14:57:53 ... I recommend you ask the TTWG to update the WD sooner rather than later - it can be every 14:58:06 ... week if you want! I don't know how many changes there have been since the FPWD. 14:58:26 Courtney: That's why I was gathering the diffs. 14:58:42 plh: My other question is related to the repository. So you asked Simon to move it back? To the CVS server? 14:59:06 Courtney: I think they want to use github/w3c a bit like the media stream capture spec. 14:59:14 plh: That would be my recommendation too. 14:59:18 Courtney: Ok. 14:59:25 plh: If you need any help on that please let me know. 14:59:40 Courtney: Eric Carson proposed doing that, and we thought we could do it without assistance. 14:59:43 ... I'll check. 15:00:00 plh: You'll probably need me or tmichel to create the github/w3c/XXX repo 15:00:05 Courtney: Thank you 15:00:19 plh: We have tools now to keep track of contributions into our github repositories for patent 15:00:22 ... policy reasons. 15:02:15 nigel: We're out of time - I think we've covered everything. Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting] 15:02:22 rrsagent, make logs public 15:02:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:02:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:31:22 s/plh/pal 16:31:23 s/plh/pal 16:31:52 s/pal/tmichel 16:31:53 s/plh/pal 16:31:58 s/pal/plh 16:32:00 s/pal/tmichel 16:32:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:32:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:36:18 s/tmichel: If you need/plh: If you need 16:36:34 s/tmichel: We have tools/plh: We have tools 16:36:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:36:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:37:25 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:37:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:37:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:42:43 tmichel has joined #tt 16:52:59 Zakim has left #tt