14:43:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:43:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-irc
14:43:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:43:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:43:23 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:43:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:43:24 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015
14:43:59 <Kathy> chair: Kathy Wahlbin
14:44:43 <Kathy> agenda?
14:45:00 <Kathy> agenda+ Mobile Techniques
14:45:40 <Kathy> agenda+ Discussion of Touch Proposal
14:45:54 <Kathy> agenda+ Wirting Assignments
14:46:00 <Kathy> agenda+ Next Steps
14:46:03 <Kathy> agenda?
14:55:41 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:48 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:15 <agarrison> agarrison has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:59 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:03:18 <agarrison> +agarrison
15:03:21 <jeanne> +jeanne
15:03:23 <David> +David_MacDonald
15:03:35 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
15:03:57 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
15:03:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald
15:04:00 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
15:04:48 <jeanne> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:48 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose David_MacDonald
15:05:29 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:34 <jeanne> present+ jeanne, agarrison, David_MacDonald, Detlev
15:06:02 <Detlev> scribe:Detlev
15:06:05 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
15:06:19 <Detlev> Zakim, take up first item
15:06:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', Detlev
15:06:29 <Detlev> Zakim, take up next
15:06:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Mobile Techniques" taken up [from Kathy]
15:06:46 <Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:06:46 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:07:38 <Detlev> Kathy: Mobile-A11y-Extension is a sketch how the extension framework is going to play out
15:08:03 <Detlev> Kathy: SOme new mobile techniques, others go under existing techniques
15:08:56 <Detlev> Kathy: ..organised by guidelines. What's your thoughts?
15:09:10 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:15 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:09:24 <David> q+
15:09:24 <Henny> Henny has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:47 <Detlev> Jeanne: Doc is in Respect to support automated publishing
15:10:04 <agarrison> So, is it like http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-accessibility-mapping/ - just cut up into techniques?
15:10:33 <Kathy> q?
15:10:39 <Detlev> Jeanne: Changes only made via github pull requests - don't add anything to it directly, especially no J, may cause issues
15:11:34 <agarrison> q
15:11:41 <agarrison> q+
15:12:00 <Detlev> David: 2.5.1 structure issue - CSS is not correct yet
15:12:21 <Detlev> David: 2.5.1 should not remain in here
15:12:57 <Detlev> Kathy: This is agreed stuff but not yet public
15:13:18 <Detlev> David: Should WCAG be in here and the new stuff added?
15:14:00 <Detlev> Kathy: Should help place new mobile techniques under the relevant success criteria - but it's open to discussion
15:14:27 <Detlev> David: Not clear what the proposal is - copying all of WCAG in here?
15:15:01 <Detlev> David: People shouldn't perceive this as the updated full WCAG
15:15:23 <Detlev> Kathy: How shall we otherwise present techniques
15:15:48 <Detlev> David: Maybe it is enough to reference the WCAG guideline /SC numbers to make the difference obvious
15:16:32 <jeanne> +1 to short handles of WCAG and adding it to the Status
15:16:37 <Detlev> Kathy: Status of the doc should clarify the difference to exisitng WCAG - that it is to be considered in addition to WCAG
15:16:47 <Kathy> q?
15:17:29 <Detlev> Alistair: mobile accessibility mapping is structured in a similar way (see URL above)
15:18:21 <Detlev> Kathy: this wasn't structured as extension - some are best practices - we started with touch accessibility and added necessary things
15:18:50 <Detlev> Kathy: Not xyet decided what will happen with the note - the extension is where things will go
15:18:54 <David> http://davidmacd.com/blog/WCAG-extension-proposed-integration-into-WCAG.html
15:19:12 <Detlev> Kathy: WCAG WG is currently working out how the extension should work
15:20:08 <Detlev> Kathy: THis is an overview t facilitate a suggestion how the different reqs will fit into the extension (LV, cognitive, mobile)
15:20:31 <Detlev> Kathy: Intended as outline of normative extension
15:21:07 <Detlev> Kathy: Extension is supposed to just add to, not subtract from WCAG 2.0
15:22:10 <Detlev> Alistair: Maybe the text from WCAG should be brought over so people can see what gets extended where
15:22:35 <Detlev> AListair: Will provide more context - may be changed later
15:23:31 <Detlev> David: This has no educational purpose ATM - no changes to normative WCAG 2.0 expected , no crossing out
15:24:47 <Detlev> Jeanne: Stil early days in figuing out what the extension will mean - all thoughts are OK now, Mobile a11y TF is spearheading the process, so it is valuable to identify issues (like having to make changes to normative WCAG 2.0)
15:26:01 <Detlev> Kathy: End user aspect, like people creating responsive sites - would it make sense to have new mobile SC with different twechniques - the actual end user will know what is required for accessible development
15:26:32 <Detlev> Kathy: For them it will be easier to have all relevant info in one place rather than resort to different places
15:27:03 <David> q+
15:27:05 <Detlev> Kathy: We have to consider end user view and usability of this documentation
15:27:22 <Kathy> q?
15:27:29 <agarrison> q-
15:28:04 <Detlev> David: We need a view (quickref) to synthesize stuff, incl. mobile
15:28:35 <agarrison> q+
15:28:50 <Detlev> David: Still early days - it may be more difficult to manage to include all, it's a working doc for us
15:29:08 <Detlev> David: Should be easy to aggregate for developers later
15:29:26 <Detlev> Kathy: Withing the Quickref there canbe new guidelines and SC
15:30:26 <Detlev> Kathy: UAAG and WCAG chairs need input on how we can bring together the different user needs and requirements
15:31:18 <Detlev> Alistair: Reading in different documents looks like a problem - easier to have one synthesized doc
15:31:35 <Detlev> Alistair: Looks different on a mobile browser
15:32:09 <Detlev> Kathy: Not sure how to bring in hybrid apps using web views
15:32:43 <Detlev> Kathy: muich of it is platform specific (iOS / ANdroid etc)
15:33:03 <jeanne> q+
15:33:10 <Detlev> Kathy: Current focus is straight web sites
15:33:13 <jeanne> ack Dav
15:33:17 <jeanne> ack ag
15:33:30 <Detlev> Alistair: THe extensio bnmodel may also apply to techniques
15:34:02 <Alan_smith> Alan_smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:34:08 <Alan_smith> + Alan
15:34:24 <Detlev> Jeanne: Whne req for updated Quickref were developed the need for a filter for 'mobile' was included
15:35:37 <Detlev> Jeann: we can be specific to the area the techniques apply to
15:35:51 <Detlev> David: We need mor techniques - including for hybrid
15:36:32 <Detlev> Jeanne: One topic is text-resizing which could be modified for different mobile paltforms
15:37:17 <Detlev> Kathy: will send out info on that
15:37:20 <agarrison> q-
15:37:30 <jeanne> ack jea
15:38:15 <jeanne> s/Jeanne: One topic is/Kathy: One topic is
15:38:38 <Detlev> Kathy: We should go back to see what is mobile specific, like 1.3.3 Sensory characteristics - but telling people where somethign is on the screen coan be really helpful, such things should be taken into account
15:38:55 <Detlev> Kathy: A technique just being one way to meet the criteria
15:39:42 <Detlev> Kathy: Lets put techniques out to get feedback on what will prove helpful for the new tocuh interaction paradigm
15:39:57 <David> q+
15:41:01 <Detlev> Alistair: 3D touch brings in new aspects, also time touch on Android
15:41:36 <Detlev> Alan: Things like duration can be very helpful for some users
15:43:12 <Detlev> David: We need to take into account the WCAG philosophy - there is a tension between actual use cases and the standard. There are sometimes new tech solutions which beg the question what should be required
15:43:18 <Kathy> q?
15:43:32 <David> q-
15:43:56 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29
15:43:58 <Detlev> Kathy: This doc is a snapshot of current agreements - we can countinue using Wiki
15:44:09 <Detlev> Zakim, take up next
15:44:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Discussion of Touch Proposal" taken up [from Kathy]
15:44:10 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:44:59 <Detlev> Kathy: Davids wording solution - from equiring touch access to requiring that all touch access also works with AT turned on
15:45:24 <Detlev> David: Charter tells us we are authorized to develop extensions
15:45:57 <Detlev> David: There may be overlap between requirements, say of cognitive and moble, so we may wend up with just one extension
15:46:30 <Detlev> This would address concern about complexity of having several extensions
15:47:14 <Detlev> Input from different TFs could feed into one extension - the process should encourage discussion to combine SC whereever possible
15:47:34 <Detlev> The Quickref will then bring that together for the outside user
15:47:53 <Detlev> David: Diagram has gained traction lots of +1
15:48:23 <Detlev> Alistair: Do Working groups work to common time scales?
15:48:35 <Detlev> David: No real coordination so far
15:49:25 <Detlev> Kathy: A challenge is the coordination between what the different task forces are doing
15:50:01 <Detlev> The WG needs to look at that and define how the results are going to be combined - it's currently being worked out within WG
15:50:24 <Detlev> Kathy: This should not become a bottleneck but is a serious concern
15:51:17 <Detlev> Kathy: What are the basicv rules for extensions? It's likely that there will be several extensions, not one
15:51:37 <Detlev> David: should be one extension at the ens of the day
15:52:06 <Kathy> q?
15:52:07 <Detlev> David: the idea is to speed up the overall process - extensions will be easier
15:53:06 <Detlev> Kathy: The way the focus on the working group topic and interaction with others work is still not finalised
15:53:33 <David> All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.
15:53:34 <Detlev> Kathy: Point about 2.5.4 Proposal
15:54:20 <Detlev> Kathy: The general gist was that everything that is offered for touch should also work with AT turned on - has anyone worked on the SC text?
15:54:45 <Kathy> 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.
15:55:18 <agarrison> q+
15:55:44 <Kathy> Suggested Modification: 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are available by touch (or button presses) with system assistive technology.
15:56:04 <Detlev> David: pointing to the latest draft of 2.5.4 - focus ios that everything has to work for people using AT - there is no pass-through gesture on Android - most is already available after pass-throuigh gesture. Not so on Android
15:56:14 <jon_avila> In my experience on iOS the pass through gesture doesn't allow you to lift your first -- I wonder if that could an issue.
15:56:35 <Detlev> David: Good wording for SC
15:57:22 <Detlev> Alistair: Impact on AT, example on date picker. AT can have big impact on a11y
15:58:04 <jon_avila> What assistive technology? If it works with Assistive Touch but not with VO -- it's available with AT but not with all.
15:58:15 <Detlev> Alistair: There may be unwanted interactions between different gestures for touch
15:59:12 <agarrison> q-
15:59:19 <Detlev> David: In theory the pass-through gesture (on iOS) should enable other gestures
15:59:41 <Detlev> Jon: Pass through gesture may not work in some cases
16:00:11 <Detlev> Jon: Some gestures may work with some AT (assistive touch) but not with VoiceOver
16:00:38 <Detlev> Jon: The wording is a challenge, may not be specific enough yet
16:00:53 <Detlev> David: We cannot enumerate all potential AT
16:01:26 <Detlev> Jon: We don't have a standard interface to work with like on the desktop. lots of inconsistency
16:02:25 <Detlev> David: The intention was that with any AT needed touch would work - focusing on the system level
16:02:50 <Detlev> Kathy: Please think about wording, make suggestions for changes
16:03:02 <jon_avila> My technique m23 is in draft form and ready for a review. It is on github.
16:03:18 <Detlev> Kathy: Lets pick up discussion next week
16:03:47 <Alan_smith> M007 was updated from my github version
16:03:51 <Detlev> Kathy: Kim and Jeanne won't be around for next few meetings
16:04:28 <Detlev> Zakim. list attendees
16:04:37 <Detlev> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
16:04:52 <Detlev> rssagent, make minutes
16:05:12 <Kathy> rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:23 <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy