15:00:14 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:00:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-irc
15:00:16 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:16 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:00:18 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:18 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:00:19 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:19 Date: 01 October 2015
15:00:28 present+ janina
15:00:37 trackbot, start meeting
15:00:39 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:41 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:41 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:00:42 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:42 Date: 01 October 2015
15:00:46 present+ LJWatson
15:00:47 agenda+ Agenda Edits & Additions
15:00:47 agenda+ MAUR Update - Janina
15:00:47 agenda+ TPAC Planning
15:00:47 agenda+ Web Payments Followup
15:00:48 agenda+ Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam
15:00:48 agenda+ Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals
15:00:48 agenda+ IMEs & ContentEditable -- Chaals
15:00:48 agenda?
15:00:49 agenda+ Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al
15:00:49 agenda+ Bug Triage -- Leonie
15:00:49 agenda+ TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track
15:00:50 agenda+ Other Business
15:00:56 present+ ShaneM
15:00:59 MarkS has joined #html-a11y
15:01:47 present+ chaals
15:01:53 present+ janina
15:01:58 present+ LJWatson]
15:02:02 plh has joined #html-a11y
15:02:53 chair: chaals
15:02:57 present +bkardell_
15:03:04 Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:03:07 zakim, take up item 1
15:03:07 agendum 1. "Agenda Edits & Additions" taken up [from chaals]
15:03:13 present+ Judy
15:03:22 agenda+ "we expect to get another month"
15:03:36 present+ IanPouncey
15:03:54 zakim, take up item 12
15:03:54 agendum 12. ""we expect to get another month"" taken up [from chaals]
15:04:16 CMN: we expect to have a one month extension to the HTML group, so we can worry about the future at TPAC…
15:04:17 q+
15:04:22 present+ MarkS
15:04:24 ack ju
15:04:48 JB: expect APA to happen within that timeframe too…
15:05:15 present+ plh
15:05:35 scribe: MarkS
15:05:37 zakim, close item 12
15:05:37 agendum 12, "we expect to get another month", closed
15:05:38 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:38 1. Agenda Edits & Additions [from chaals]
15:05:54 bkardell_ has joined #html-a11y
15:05:54 zakim, close item 1
15:05:54 agendum 1, Agenda Edits & Additions, closed
15:05:55 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:55 2. MAUR Update - Janina [from chaals]
15:06:36 JS: FYI, we published LCWD last fall. We received several good comments and handled most of them in the Spring.
15:06:47 ... just now got around to responding to commenters
15:06:58 ...hope to get next draft published before TPAC
15:07:08 ...who publishes is unknown.
15:07:26 s/next draft/Note
15:07:55 CMN: anything controversial? perhaps we should start a Call for consensus next week.
15:08:04 JS: that is a good idea. I will follow through on that.
15:08:09 +1 on a CfC
15:08:14 ACTION: janina to start a CfC to publish MAUR as a note
15:08:15 Created ACTION-335 - Start a cfc to publish maur as a note [on Janina Sajka - due 2015-10-08].
15:08:49 zakim, take up next item
15:08:49 agendum 2. "MAUR Update - Janina" taken up [from chaals]
15:08:50 [agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20151001003822.GL1737@opera.rednote.net ]
15:08:56 zakim, close item 2
15:08:56 agendum 2, MAUR Update - Janina, closed
15:08:57 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:57 3. TPAC Planning [from chaals]
15:09:01 zakim, take up item 3
15:09:01 agendum 3. "TPAC Planning" taken up [from chaals]
15:09:37 CMN: we asked people to be at TPAC. There is a slot for various group who may or may not exist
15:09:50 ...who will be there and available second half of the week.
15:09:52 present+ liam
15:09:56 Available on Friday.
15:09:56 I'll be there
15:09:59 MarkS is a maybe
15:09:59 [I'll be there all week]
15:10:02 I won't be there
15:10:06 [I expect to have conflicts for TPAC - Web platform/AC/AB]
15:10:07 I'll be there
15:10:08 I will be there but web payments is meeting thursday friday so... I will be at that a lot
15:10:23 I'll be divided between rooms as usual
15:10:49 Friday pending Web Platforms stuff.
15:11:15 JS: I will be chairing PF Thur and Fri
15:11:38 CMN: If you have not registered, you should do that right away
15:12:09 PLH: hotels are filling up!
15:12:22 zakim, close item 3
15:12:22 agendum 3, TPAC Planning, closed
15:12:23 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:23 4. Web Payments Followup [from chaals]
15:12:31 zakim, take up item 4
15:12:31 agendum 4. "Web Payments Followup" taken up [from chaals]
15:12:50 JS: looking for recruits for a User Req. doc for this.
15:13:04 ...so far, me, JF, Shane volunteered to be editor.
15:13:32 ...I have a commitment to strip the MAUR to everything related to Media to use as a base document for Web Payments.
15:13:38 ...hope to do before TPAC
15:14:53 CMN: given that payments is not HTML, but another WG, should this be something between APA and WP?
15:15:00 JS: good idea
15:15:08 ...most of us are already in APA
15:15:17 SM: I'm in WP as well
15:15:19 zakim, close item 4
15:15:19 agendum 4, Web Payments Followup, closed
15:15:19 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:20 5. Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam [from chaals]
15:15:30 s/already in/going to be in/
15:15:42 zakim, take up item 5
15:15:42 agendum 5. "Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam" taken up [from chaals]
15:15:55 JS: Did not get a chance to bring this up in PF yesterday.
15:16:20 ...will be asking WCAG to review language. Need a close review from expert reviewers. As many as we can put on the draft.
15:16:48 ...then we will follow bugs against HTML spec, and hopefully get into HTML5.1 draft
15:17:28 -> https://w3c.github.io/alt-techniques/ Alt doc draft
15:17:35 zakim, close this item
15:17:36 agendum 5 closed
15:17:36 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:17:37 6. Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals [from chaals]
15:17:40 zakim, take up item 6
15:17:40 agendum 6. "Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals" taken up [from chaals]
15:17:44 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:18:39 CMN: this is a question that came from ARIA stuff. Whether or not D&D works in ARIA or in HTML. Do we have a special ARIA version, or should ARIA deprecate and building it right into HTML
15:18:59 ...up to people who have implementation support to say which they think is the best solution.
15:19:11 IP: I've had a very hard time to get it to work.
15:19:25 ...lots and lots of JS. This is just HTML attempt
15:19:35 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:19:45 [D&D unsupported on touch devices]
15:19:53 BK: and its unsupported in touch as well, correct?
15:20:56 q+ to say Jaws has lost support for ARIA drag/drop somewhere between v11 and v17.
15:21:02 ack lj
15:21:02 LJWatson, you wanted to say Jaws has lost support for ARIA drag/drop somewhere between v11 and v17.
15:21:07 RS: We have decided to deprecate what we have in ARIA 1.1. We would like to depend on whatever HTML can support and then add any missing pieces in ARIA.next
15:21:48 JS: about two years ago, we looked into this and there were serious discussions on this, around what it would take. Should probably have that again
15:22:17 LW: JAWS 11 used to support ARIA D&D, but somewhere along the way, support was lost. I have filed bugs. No idea when this happened.
15:23:04 LW: you can tell which elements could be grabbed, but issuing commands to grab it were not accessible.
15:23:16 ...filed bugs with Freedom Scientific
15:23:22 ...will share with you
15:23:35 zakim, close item 6
15:23:35 agendum 6, Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals, closed
15:23:36 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:23:36 7. IMEs & ContentEditable -- Chaals [from chaals]
15:24:06 ACTION: chaals to explain the IME / cententeditable issue in email
15:24:07 Created ACTION-336 - Explain the ime / cententeditable issue in email [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-10-08].
15:24:08 can everyone check that they a muted there's frequently a skipping echo making it a little hard to hear - or is that just for me?
15:25:13 CMN: people working on this are interested in something called ContentEditable = typing. That will include using IMEs, like what we use when you want to input non standard characters
15:25:15 liam: seems to be helping to me
15:25:30 ...none of the people working on that had not Assistive Technology experience.
15:25:52 ...looking for anyone with Chinese Japanese or Korean experience
15:26:17 ...Javascript RTE component in a web page, like TInyMCE, CKEditor, etc.
15:26:33 ...knowledge of how these work as well as AT experience
15:26:49 q+
15:27:09 ACTION: chaals to add contenteditable and IME issues to TPAC agenda
15:27:09 Created ACTION-337 - Add contenteditable and ime issues to tpac agenda [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-10-08].
15:27:10 JS: this should be something we should talk about at TPAC. there may be experts there. Lots of participation for Japanese, Chinese and Korean people
15:27:37 JB: There will be people from Korea and China there that are interested in working on this.
15:27:48 zakim, close item 7
15:27:48 agendum 7, IMEs & ContentEditable -- Chaals, closed
15:27:49 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:27:49 8. Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al [from chaals]
15:27:54 zakim, take up item 8
15:27:54 agendum 8. "Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al" taken up [from chaals]
15:27:56 CMN: can you send an email? make introductions?
15:28:15 sorry
15:28:29 JB: because of progress on APA and ARIA, etc. we are having lots of confusion about scheduling
15:28:38 CMN: likely early in the week to talk about this.
15:28:51 JB: maybe you can get a separate email out to coordinate
15:29:10 q+ to add scope creep to tabpanels
15:29:16 ack ju
15:30:10 BK: Leonie and I met up and tried to make a habit of getting editors together for a quick standup to keep this moving forward. Two actions items. 1 to write a easier to understand intro to the spec. trying to get that out there to get regular users involved.
15:30:57 ...2. I will sync up with Polymer devs. They are busy at the moment. They have some existing functionality that is lower level than what we are designing, but could be used to drive momentum.
15:31:11 ...interesting because they have access to browser implementer.
15:31:33 q+
15:31:34 ...tricky to get people to use it because of the lack of shadow DOM that can be styled, etc.
15:31:42 ack pl
15:32:35 ack me
15:32:35 chaals, you wanted to add scope creep to tabpanels
15:32:48 ...we did this with input modality work as well (easy to understand description) and it was successful
15:33:04 CMN: this would have more success if it replaced details/summary
15:33:09 -> http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/chem-BV-ox.svg a chemistry diagram in SVG
15:34:14 ...I was playing around with a chemistry diagram, and thinking about how you could navigate around and this is pretty much like an expandable tree. The tree itself is always visible. Then it occurred to me that the same metaphor, nested tab panels, applied here as well.
15:34:24 ...would tab panels be able to handle this use case?
15:34:50 ...having a native object, like a tab panel, would be much better than complex JS navigation.
15:35:31 BK: this came up in my organization as well. On mobile, when you have a hamburger navigation, you want something accordion like, but sometimes its nested. Is that a tree? can you next panel sets?
15:35:56 ...there were some concerns about i18n, concerns that panel/title should be an element of its own.
15:36:09 ...what worried me about that was that it would be unclear on to navigate this.
15:36:39 ...tabs in your OS cannot contain form fields, but panelsets can, so theoretically this is possible.
15:37:00 ...the element that can be expanded/collapsed is frequently a link on its own. There is a lot of overlap here.
15:37:43 CMN: to go back to SVG a11y TF, just the navigation, is there a sense of what the metaphor for navigation is.
15:38:02 ...open question. won't get an answer today, or even this week. but something to consider.
15:38:17 ...SVG sorta had this solved, but they are trying to come up with a better solution.
15:38:55 RS: looking at this diagram, are you looking to reveal content?
15:40:05 CMN: the diagram has 4 blocks, initial chemicals, then a transformation, then changes, then transformation, etc. Would like to enable people to start in initial ketone and then give them the ability to go to any step in the process wihtout going through all transformations.
15:40:34 ...I'm thinking purely about focus navigation.
15:41:08 BK: so each phase in this would be a panel, with a title. then you could skip between the things, then drill down when you want.
15:41:21 ...same navigation requirement as panels. not visually, just navigationally
15:41:28 This feels like a hack to me.
15:42:16 SM: you can solve any problem by adding a layer of abstraciton, but pretending something is a tab when it isn't...
15:42:37 CMN: I'm talking about interaction behavior.
15:42:46 being able to apply that to trees, etc.
15:42:47 zakim, agenda?
15:42:47 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:42:48 8. Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al [from chaals]
15:42:48 9. Bug Triage -- Leonie [from chaals]
15:42:48 10. TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track [from chaals]
15:42:48 11. Other Business [from chaals]
15:42:59 BK: the spec doesn't use the work TAB, it uses panel and panel set.
15:43:09 ...in ARIA, they are TABS.
15:43:17 LW: the semantics are limiting.
15:43:34 ...the only ARIA we can use TAB/TABLIST/TABPANEL
15:43:49 ...and that is not the semantics we want in HTML
15:44:08 ...we are focusing on PANEL at this point.
15:44:18 CMN: lets get a human readable explanation ;)
15:44:36 RS: lets discuss this at TPAC
15:45:06 CS: would love to talk about web components too
15:45:24 RS: probably schedule something Mon - Tues at TPAC. trying to schedule with Chaals
15:45:29 zakim, close item 8
15:45:29 agendum 8, Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al, closed
15:45:30 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:45:30 9. Bug Triage -- Leonie [from chaals]
15:45:41 LW: nothing to report.
15:46:02 CMN: any other business?
15:46:06 no
15:46:38 zakim, take up item 10
15:46:38 agendum 10. "TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track" taken up [from chaals]
15:46:42 CMN: all open actions are on Me and Cynthia, one on PLH which is now complete.
15:46:43 close action-332
15:46:43 Closed action-332.
15:47:11 CMN: I did this.
15:47:14 ...329
15:47:18 action-329?
15:47:18 action-329 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Take up "media descriptions" topic in the tf -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
15:47:18 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/329
15:47:48 CMN: transcript and describing a poster. No real solutions for these. Everything else has a mechanism.
15:48:02 ...Was brought up in TF, everyone agreed
15:48:02 close action-329
15:48:02 Closed action-329.
15:48:21 ...rest of mine are outstanding.
15:48:50 action-324 on ljwatson
15:49:26 close action-330
15:49:26 Closed action-330.
15:49:30 OBE
15:49:56 action-226 to ljwatson
15:50:03 to bug steve
15:50:37 cyns and LW to meet next week
15:50:44 action-318 due in 10 days
15:50:44 Set action-318 Work with léonie on describing the extensions requested to web driver, and the motivation… due date to 2015-10-11.
15:51:08 OBE
15:51:09