13:57:03 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:57:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-tt-irc 13:57:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:57:05 Zakim has joined #tt 13:57:07 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:57:07 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:57:08 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:57:08 Date: 24 September 2015 14:01:47 pal has joined #tt 14:04:10 Frans has joined #tt 14:04:23 Present: pal, nigel, tmichel, frans 14:04:25 chair: nigel 14:04:30 Regrets: Andreas 14:05:08 courtney has joined #tt 14:05:26 Topic: This meeting 14:08:13 nigel: Proposes we look at Action Items, IMSC, TTML and WebVTT mapping and codecs registry. 14:08:15 ... AOB? 14:08:24 group: none. 14:08:57 Topic: Action Items 14:09:15 action-420? 14:09:15 action-420 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Follow up with glenn on issue-406 -- due 2015-09-10 -- OPEN 14:09:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/420 14:09:34 pal: Glenn has provided the input needed to make progress, that #uax14 feature is unique in 14:09:46 ... TTML in that it controls whether the processor uses the uax14 algorithm to determine line 14:09:59 ... breaks but it is not communicated in the document. It has to be specified by the profile. 14:10:12 ... I'm trying to find out if in general implementors follow the uax14 recommendations so we 14:10:26 ... can determine if it should be mandated in IMSC 1. So I have enough information to proceed. 14:10:55 ... If you know of implementations and if they follow uax14 recommendations let me know. 14:11:09 nigel: We should take HTML/CSS implementations as a data point. 14:11:17 pal: CSS3 seems to mandate it. 14:11:50 close action-420 14:11:50 Closed action-420. 14:11:54 issue-406? 14:11:54 issue-406 -- #lineBreak-uax14 is never 'used' by a document? -- open 14:11:54 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/406 14:12:59 issue-406: [meeting 2015-09-24] IMSC 1 should mandate that processors shall/shall not implement uax14 or say nothing about it. 14:12:59 Notes added to issue-406 #lineBreak-uax14 is never 'used' by a document?. 14:13:25 pal: Here's a link to the CSS3 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-3/ 14:14:27 Topic: IMSC stuff 14:14:55 pal: I've received a render from an implementor for one of the test suite tests, probably 14:15:09 tmichel has joined #tt 14:15:33 ... the most complex one. It's an MP4 file for track6-frag0-sample1-subs0.ttml 14:15:45 ... I stepped through the render and it seems good to me. We should add it to the results and 14:16:00 ... use it to encourage others. That implementor now plans to continue with the other tests. 14:16:16 ... tmichel, can we post that and add a link to the implementation report? 14:17:46 tmichel: Yes, I've missed that somehow - if you can resend it to me? 14:17:57 pal: I'll upload it to somewhere we can all see it, so you can pick it up from there. 14:18:21 Action: tmichel to download and upload to implementation report page the test render MP4 14:18:21 Created ACTION-424 - Download and upload to implementation report page the test render mp4 [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-10-01]. 14:19:03 http://sandflow.com/public/GIC_IMSC_DEMO_H264_30s_20150829_1.mp4 14:19:27 nigel: Last week we said we'd discuss how to proceed with encouraging implementors . 14:20:28 pal: I think a prompt update email from tmichel wouldn't harm. I have another name to add also. 14:20:48 nigel: Is that the best thing to do? Would it help to have a message from the chair too? 14:21:00 pal: We can kick around some ideas offline about this. 14:21:27 nigel: Okay, but for the time being tmichel should send a prompt email? 14:21:37 pal: Yes, and we should also thank the contributor of this test result. 14:22:19 Action: tmichel Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for IMSC. 14:22:19 Created ACTION-425 - Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc. [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-10-01]. 14:22:40 nigel: And pal will send tmichel a new name/address. 14:22:42 pal: yes. 14:24:21 issue-417? 14:24:21 issue-417 -- #writingMode constraint inconsistent in image profile -- raised 14:24:21 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/417 14:25:12 pal: This is about features and dependent/contained features. #writingMode 'may' be used in 14:25:25 ... both profiles, but image profile doesn't actually permit vertical writing mode, so it's just a 14:25:36 ... matter of moving it to the individual profiles from the common set. 14:25:40 reopen issue-417 14:25:40 Re-opened issue-417. 14:25:51 issue-429? 14:25:51 issue-429 -- Glyph vs code point in HRM -- raised 14:25:51 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/429 14:26:19 pal: This is a tricky one. The HRM today is written in terms of glyph but what the document 14:26:34 ... talks about is code points. You don't know how code points get turned into glyphs until 14:26:52 ... the text is rendered because it depends on the font and the context. It's complex. 14:27:32 ... I'm trying to find out if the intended term was code points or glyph. 14:27:38 reopen issue-429 14:27:38 Re-opened issue-429. 14:27:50 issue-431? 14:27:50 issue-431 -- Example of documents that fail the HRM -- raised 14:27:50 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/431 14:28:19 pal: This should be pretty straightforward to put together. 14:28:24 reopen issue-431 14:28:24 Re-opened issue-431. 14:29:21 nigel: There are a whole load of pending review issues on imsc 1. Are there any to call out? 14:29:47 ... Otherwise we can give a 2 week review period and if there are no queries/problems then 14:29:49 ... close them. 14:30:52 pal: I've sent Glenn a summary and really he should review the resolutions. 14:32:06 nigel: I've checked all the check-ins and most of the issues, so they're looking good to me 14:32:12 ... at the moment, but I need to double check. 14:32:19 pal: Okay, then I'll look at the now open ones. 14:32:37 Topic: TTML and WebVTT mapping document 14:32:43 action-422? 14:32:43 action-422 -- Courtney Kennedy to Update the mapping document status of this document to include feedback mechanism. -- due 2015-09-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:32:43 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/422 14:32:56 courtney: I've done that. 14:33:34 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml-webvtt-mapping/mappingbetweenTTMLandWebVTTW3C.html 14:33:56 close action-422 14:33:57 Closed action-422. 14:34:28 Courtney: There's another action and an issue that I have proposed resolutions for and then 14:34:40 ... there's a whole bunch of others I'm still thinking about, and want to discuss with Andreas. 14:34:56 action-423? 14:34:56 action-423 -- Thierry Michel to Check the license on the ttml to webvtt mapping document -- due 2015-09-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:34:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/423 14:35:13 courtney: I figured out how to put the right licence in there. 14:35:28 tmichel: It's true that the right copyright is in there, which is fine. Now the document has 14:35:41 ... changed from Editor's draft to Unofficial draft. Is that because you couldn't make it an ED? 14:35:54 courtney: I'm using respec as you suggested and it's hard to control. When I make it an ED it 14:36:14 ... gets broken links. Making it a UD fixed the links but broke the licence. The respec guys 14:36:35 ... helped me to fix the link and the copyright but the effect is it's a UD. 14:36:51 ... If I use the template from tmichel then it puts a wrong link in. 14:37:07 tmichel: Let's discuss offline. In the meantime there's no problem having an Unofficial Draft. 14:37:25 courtney: I'm not sure it matters at the moment. The right copyright statement and no bad links is more important. 14:38:28 nigel: I've also noticed that it says 'Latest Recommendation' which is a bit misleading. 14:38:52 Action: tmichel tmichel to work with courtney to get the TTML WebVTT mapping to look right with respec 14:38:53 Created ACTION-426 - Tmichel to work with courtney to get the ttml webvtt mapping to look right with respec [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-10-01]. 14:39:07 close action-423 14:39:07 Closed action-423. 14:39:14 issue-415? 14:39:14 issue-415 -- TTML2 is confusing -- pending review 14:39:14 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/415 14:39:55 courtney: I'm a bit confused by this but what I think he's asking for is not to use '2' in the T2VP 14:40:15 ... profile for mapping. He also said the constraints are against IMSC 1 which is not correct. 14:40:27 ... I changed the name of the profile to TVTT as a response to the '2' issue. 14:41:34 issue-415: [meeting 2015-09-24] Numeral 2 removed from name of mapping profile to avoid confusion with TTML2. Profile is not based on IMSC 1 however note Issue-446 requests this. 14:41:34 Notes added to issue-415 TTML2 is confusing. 14:42:20 nigel: Let's point mike back at this to review. 14:42:38 courtney: Thanks to Mike and Pierre for the detailed review - I really appreciate it. 14:42:49 ... Andreas is on vacation and I really want to discuss some of these with him before deciding 14:43:17 ... on how to resolve them. Our idea in defining a new profile was just to structure a mapping 14:43:33 ... strategy. At least in my mind it wasn't something that you'd publish and author to. It was 14:44:39 ... just a way to structure the mapping. The feedback is really interesting though. I want to think about this some more though. 14:44:52 nigel: I had the same take as you Courtney but we should recognise the feedback - if we 14:45:07 ... define a profile then people might use it! We should think about how formal we make the profile 14:45:10 ... document. 14:45:37 courtney: The goal of splitting the mapping into two parts was 1) to reduce the semantics 14:45:51 ... and 2) to convert the syntax. The benefit that Andreas pointed out was that then you always 14:46:08 ... have a valid conformance-checkable document at every stage. I thought that was a nice 14:46:23 ... benefit of dividing things up this way. Because that was our intent, the profile isn't related 14:46:38 ... to IMSC or other TTML profiles so much. It's just about defining a subset of TTML that is 14:46:42 ... the same as WebVTT functionality. 14:46:57 pal: It makes perfect sense and is a great process. From a user's perspective, the end result 14:47:11 ... is that if a document meets the constraints defined in the document it can be converted 14:47:38 ... losslessly into WebVTT, to the temptation will be to author to that. 14:47:50 courtney: That's interesting - it's true, but the converse it not true. Just because you don't 14:48:01 ... start with this profile doesn't necessarily mean that the mapping will be lossy. 14:48:32 pal: It will look like a very tempting option to author for lossless mapping to WebVTT. 14:48:46 ... If that happens to be a subset of IMSC 1 then that's great because implementors can just 14:49:01 ... use a subset of IMSC 1 to target mapping to WebVTT. If it's not then we should see if IMSC1 14:49:03 ... needs to change. 14:49:17 courtney: I think we should do that exercise and we may find that we're very close to IMSC 1 14:49:31 ... already. Then we should think if it makes more sense to use IMSC 1 and restructure the 14:49:44 ... document to discuss the timing conversions that are allowed in IMSC 1. I agree that this is 14:49:56 ... a pragmatic approach that needs more discussion and I'd like Andreas to be part of it. 14:50:13 pal: Absolutely. It may be worth just noting that the TVTT profile is a subset of IMSC 1. 14:50:39 ... It doesn't necessarily require a major document restructure. 14:51:27 nigel: It may be that we defer this discussion until TPAC to manage everyone's availability. 14:52:15 nigel: Looking at all the issues raised, is there any reason not to open them all? 14:52:32 courtney: I haven't looked in depth at all of them yet. I think the forced display one is a bit different. 14:52:45 ... I think that will result in some additional text in our document describing how to mark 14:53:28 ... WebVTT as forced. I think it depends on the carriage/wrapper too e.g. HLS, BMFF, HTML web page. 14:53:46 pal: I think we could mention that you may need two or more separate WebVTT tracks. 14:54:11 courtney: In my experience content creators like to deliver the forced subtitles as a separate 14:54:23 ... track so they can adjust the timing relative to non-forced subtitles. 14:54:41 pal: That's interesting. So the forced/non forced subtitles are delivered as two separate files? 14:54:47 courtney: Not always but often. 14:55:04 ... That's a beyond-the-format question. But we could put in the mapping document how to 14:55:10 ... approach that problem in different containers. 14:56:39 nigel: A related point is that WebVTT documents can be constructed for chapters by extracting 14:56:45 ... metadata from the TTML div structure for example. 14:56:59 Action: nigel write up an issue for WebVTT for chapterisation etc. 14:57:00 Created ACTION-427 - Write up an issue for webvtt for chapterisation etc. [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-10-01]. 14:59:56 Topic: TTML profile registry. 15:00:13 nigel: Mike has done some work on this, discussions are ongoing on the reflector. 15:00:44 ... He's moved it to https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/ProfileRegistry 15:02:04 nigel: The main direction to note is that we're merely hosting the short codes and separating out their usage. 15:02:21 ... There's also a question arising, perhaps to tackle offline, whether we can create a standalone 15:02:30 ... Note to update the Media Registration with IANA. 15:02:35 tmichel: Let me check on that. 15:02:59 Action: tmichel Check if we can update the TTML IANA Media Registration in a standalone Note or if we need to do it in a Rec 15:03:00 Created ACTION-428 - Check if we can update the ttml iana media registration in a standalone note or if we need to do it in a rec [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-10-01]. 15:03:59 nigel: Thanks everyone - we got through a lot, and skimmed past a lot in that meeting, but we're 15:04:12 ... 3 minutes over so I'll adjourn for now. See you all next week. [adjourns meeting] 15:04:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:04:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:06:08 Present+ courtney 15:06:22 s/none/no other business 15:08:14 s/implementors ./implementors. 15:08:35 s/address./address? 15:12:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:12:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:13:51 scribe: nigel 15:14:33 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:14:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-tt-minutes.html nigel