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12:58:12 <janina> present+ janina
12:58:32 <tzviya> present+ tzviya
12:59:04 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2015Sep/0010.html
12:59:14 <tzviya> this is DPUB-ARIA
12:59:47 <tzviya> chair: Tzviya
13:00:50 <janina> present+ Janina
13:00:55 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub-aria
13:02:03 <ivan> Present+ ivan
13:02:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #dpub-aria
13:02:58 <mgylling> Present+ Markus
13:03:15 <mgylling> scribenick mgylling
13:03:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:04:40 <mgylling> topic: open issues
13:04:47 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/87
13:04:53 <mgylling> tzviya: proposal to change prefix from dpub to doc
13:05:27 <mgylling> … the general thought is that using dpub limits audience, broaden exposure by more general prefix
13:05:39 <mgylling> rich: we might get pushback from other people
13:05:49 <mgylling> … is it floated to html5 wg, microsoft?
13:05:54 <mgylling> tzviya: not yet
13:07:20 <mgylling> tzivya: other than a possible microsoft objection, are we comfortable with the new prefix?
13:07:46 <mgylling> janina: why generalize it?
13:07:52 <ivan> q+
13:08:00 <mgylling> … seems to me there is value to associated with digital publishing as a brand
13:08:17 <tzviya> ack ivan
13:08:56 <mgylling> ivan: the other issue however is that it is not necessarily good to keep digital publishing in its own silo
13:09:14 <mgylling> … it has been that way, and it does not necessarily help
13:09:25 <mgylling> … not something no the side, but that is relevant for core web usage
13:09:43 <mgylling> … I would be pleased if somebody produced vanilla html5 doc with these terms
13:11:12 <mgylling> … we have to run the idea through others and see if we get pushbacks… its not the end of the world
13:11:26 <mgylling> janina: spending a lot of time on this is probably not worthwhile
13:11:41 <mgylling> rich: who from DPIG is going to raise this with microsoft
13:12:15 <mgylling> rich: suggest tzviya send an email to cynthia
13:12:26 <mgylling> tzviya: is ms the only organization we need comments from?
13:12:35 <mgylling> rich: you can post to public-pf
13:13:13 <mgylling> tzviya: and lets bring this up again on our next meeting
13:13:28 <mgylling> topic: additional terms
13:13:56 <mgylling> tzviya: we dont need to go through all additional terms now, we have some questions about them
13:14:08 <mgylling> … is the role term in ARIA?
13:14:21 <mgylling> rich: no it does not, we have definitions and things like that
13:14:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#term
13:15:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#definition
13:15:22 <mgylling> s/no it does not/yes it is
13:15:40 <mgylling> tzviya: this is going to affect how we do glossaries etc
13:16:41 <mgylling> tzviya: next questions: we put in a new role “errata” or “erratum”, if we put this on an li, how does that affect list based semantics
13:17:09 <mgylling> rich: why do you need erratum?
13:17:20 <mgylling> tzviya: think we only want the plural
13:17:41 <mgylling> tzviya: somebody in PF recommended using both container and individual item
13:18:23 <mgylling> tzviya: there are a few things that can be done individually or in group, like footnotes, not always standalone section
13:19:12 <mgylling> rich: can an erratum land elsewhere as well?
13:19:29 <mgylling> tzviya: probably no
13:20:16 <mgylling> … the first issue we wanted to clarify is whether listness is overriden, the answer to that is yes
13:20:42 <mgylling> rich: but then you will have an issue with each of the list items in an errata
13:21:28 <mgylling> tzviya: second issue is bloat caused by plural and singular, some of these are because they are sometimes in standalone sections, sometimes not.
13:21:58 <mgylling> tzviya: moving on to the mappings, terms that are implicit
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13:23:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#listitem
13:23:34 <mgylling> rich: listitem says its on the context of a group or a list, the question is for erratum, is it a group, a landmark or what?
13:25:25 <mgylling> tzviya: the reason we had both, is that on some of the early calls, this was recommended because implication does not work in aria
13:26:28 <mgylling> rich: we need to come back to the taxonomy, its largely for modelling purposes, we have another spec that wants to override like a list with a different role, we need to figure out how to handle that in the aria spec
13:27:21 <mgylling> … if it subclasses list, do we know if it can have listitems
13:27:46 <mgylling> … normally dealing with inheritance of states and properties, we haven’t dealt with descendants
13:28:03 <mgylling> … because some things are multiple inheritance
13:28:11 <mgylling> s/are mult/have mult
13:29:13 <mgylling> rich: another way to do this: if someone iz extending the aria spec, we’ve talked about extending objects, but extending list etc needs to be worked out
13:29:45 <mgylling> rich: the other big thing I think is whether something is a landmark or just a group of items, its not clear which things you consider to be landmarks
13:30:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/dpub-aam/dpub-aam.html
13:30:33 <mgylling> … if you view the mapping spec, go down to role mappings view as table, you can see which things are landmarks, groups or panels
13:31:20 <mgylling> rich: is dpub-locator a link?
13:31:23 <mgylling> markus: yes
13:31:38 <mgylling> rich: why wouldnt we just have link?
13:35:08 <mgylling> markus: [explains locator]
13:35:21 <mgylling> rich: this reminds me about what we are looking at for cognitive
13:35:50 <mgylling> rich: this is a function rather than a role
13:36:41 <mgylling> … cognitive wants to say e.g. that a button accesses the help system or makes a purchase, used also for styling
13:37:27 <mgylling> rich: its almost like you want a new attribute
13:39:45 <mgylling> rich: look at the api mappings: on mac, role is link and subrole locator, but if you land on it and it says locator that is confusing, we are going to say one or the other to the user
13:41:24 <mgylling> … for UI automation they only give you one vehicle to tell you, if we have another attribute, its a way to convey information
13:41:48 <mgylling> tzviya: it doesnt duplicate the generic back function
13:42:08 <mgylling> … and it is activatable
13:43:35 <tzviya> markus: these are <a href role ="locator">
13:44:09 <tzviya> rich: you definitely want to say role ="link", because AT does not know what locators are
13:44:34 <tzviya> ...we almost need an ARIA function that we can use for Cognitive and DPUB
13:44:50 <tzviya> ...I will talk to Lisa Seaman
13:45:13 <mgylling> <a href=“” role=“link dpub-locator”>…</a>
13:45:14 <tzviya> tzviya: anything that ends with *ref is a link
13:46:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> <a href=“” role=“dpub-locator link:>. …
13:47:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> <a href=“” role=“link” aria-func=“dpub-locator”>. …
13:48:05 <tzviya> rich: recommends last of listed options. This would be a property
13:48:24 <tzviya> tzviya: are you recommending removing these roles from DPUB?
13:48:55 <tzviya> rich: don't change anything yet. Will get back to you shortly
13:49:12 <tzviya> rich: I also need to know which roles are landmarks and which are groups
13:49:58 <tzviya> ...I am asking Cynthia if the strings should have the prefix or not
13:50:44 <tzviya> rich: One would expect AT to expose landmarks in a hierachical view of page
13:51:41 <tzviya> tzviya: we'll take a look at the existing landmarks and assess
13:52:55 <tzviya> topic: TPAC
13:55:26 <tzviya> tzviya: DPUB meets on Thu/Fri. Afternoon so that Markus can call
14:01:40 <tzviya> tzviya: tentative meeting for Thursday afternoon 2pm
14:02:02 <tzviya> rrsagents, make minutes public
14:02:10 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
14:02:18 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-dpub-aria-minutes.html tzviya
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