14:04:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:04:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-irc
14:04:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:04:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:04:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:04:24 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:04:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:04:25 <trackbot> Date: 14 September 2015
14:04:33 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:04:33 <Zakim> no conference has been identified yet, ivan
14:05:19 <ivan> zakim, this will be https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410
14:05:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ivan
14:05:34 <ivan> zakim, this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410
14:05:34 <Zakim> got it, ivan
14:05:53 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
14:06:31 <ivan> Regrets+ Tzviya, Markus, Vlad, Deborah, Heather, Julie, Ben, Laura, Jeff, Luc
14:06:50 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/43a7dc9cea074b3e98b0381db0bcf776@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com
14:07:02 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410
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14:58:43 <ivan> Present+ Mike_Miller
14:58:46 <Ralph> present+ Ralph_Swick
14:59:20 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger
14:59:37 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
14:59:50 <ivan> Regrets+ Chris
15:00:34 <astearns> present+ Alan Stearns
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15:01:04 <TimCole> present+ Tim_Cole
15:01:30 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
15:01:41 <brady_duga> present+ duga
15:02:06 <Karen> present+ Karen
15:02:55 <Karen> Scribe: Karen
15:03:12 <Karen> Ivan; We have a lot of regrets today, likely related to today being the Jewish New Year
15:03:20 <NickRuffilo> NickRuffilo has joined #dpub
15:03:21 <Karen> …Let's have first agenda item
15:03:23 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-dpub-minutes.html
15:03:26 <NickRuffilo> I'm calling in shortly
15:03:29 <Karen> …minutes from last time
15:03:30 <NickRuffilo> then i can scribe if necessary
15:03:39 <Karen> …any problems accepting?
15:03:45 <Karen> …Let's record that minutes are accepted
15:03:56 <ivan> Topic: MathML
15:03:56 <Karen> …Let's go next to topic of the day
15:03:59 <Karen> …MathML
15:04:08 <Karen> …the reason why we thought it would be worthwhile to have this discussion item
15:04:18 <Karen> …because there has been a lot of discussion within MathML on where and how to go
15:04:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:04:24 <Karen> …and consider some radical changes
15:04:28 <Ralph> s/…/.../G
15:04:29 <Karen> …so Peter is going to explain this to us
15:04:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:04:42 <Karen> …Peter, please take the floor
15:04:52 <tmichel> present+ Thierry Michel
15:05:09 <Karen> Speaker: Peter
15:05:20 <pbelfanti> pbelfanti has joined #dpub
15:05:23 <Karen> Peter: one of reasons to have this on the agenda, is the discussion on the DigPub mailing list
15:05:40 <Karen> …what came together at last MathML WG meeting is the rechartering of the MathML WG
15:05:50 <Karen> …it is up for rechartering next year
15:05:52 <Bert> Present+ Bert
15:06:01 <Karen> …the group has been primarily in maintenance mode and has not created new specs
15:06:15 <Karen> …it seems that W3C does not want to have WGs just do maintenance work
15:06:29 <Karen> …so big discussion just kicked off on last call is what the future of the Math WG would be like
15:06:39 <Karen> …if just maintenance, then it would be turned into a Community Group
15:06:46 <Karen> …seems to be the new status for maintenance focused groups
15:06:58 <Karen> …if that does not happen, then the Math WG needs some other kind of work item
15:07:18 <Karen> …This had not yet led to a lot of discussion on Math WG side, but it has coincided with discussions on Digital Publishing group
15:07:26 <Karen> …and the general direction for MathML
15:07:46 <Karen> …and my general background working for MathJax, library that renders MathML on web browsers
15:07:55 <Karen> …we are working on white paper about potential major revisions
15:08:02 <Karen> …And our long-term goals
15:08:09 <Karen> …One goal is to further mathematics on the web
15:08:22 <Karen> …and have people publish MathML in browsers
15:08:31 <Karen> …native MathML support in browsers has been a long-term goal
15:08:48 <Karen> …so thinking about this problem, we have come to realization that we have not been successful in that
15:09:00 <Karen> …we don't see how we can successfully trigger native browser development for MathML
15:09:16 <Karen> …so thinking about how mathematics can be realized on the web if native support is not realistic goal
15:09:24 <Karen> …One of things I brought up
15:09:24 <ivan> Present+ Nick
15:09:34 <Karen> …see if feasible to focus on work of DigPub and ARIA
15:09:39 <Ralph> -> http://caniuse.com/#feat=mathml "Can I use MathML? report"
15:09:39 <Karen> …possibly work on the ARIA side of things
15:09:44 <pbelfanti> Present+ Paul Belfanti (Having trouble logging into WebEx)
15:09:50 <Karen> …ARIA spec has a glaring hole when it comes to mathematics
15:09:56 <Karen> …Seems to be some interest from ARIA folks
15:10:16 <Karen> …Other side connects to Houdini work and would revolve around the problem of mathematical layout in browser engines
15:10:24 <Karen> …to spec out the math layouts that are challenging in CSS
15:10:31 <Karen> …this was discussed at last Math WG meeting
15:10:38 <Karen> …There was not that much interest from Math WG itself
15:10:48 <Karen> ..but there is interest by myself personally and from MathJax
15:10:57 <Karen> …we don't see how we can get MathML implmented
15:11:09 <Karen> …Let me stop here and open the queue
15:11:12 <ivan> q?
15:11:18 <Karen> …Does that make sense? Did I miss anything, Ivan?
15:11:23 <Karen> Ivan: Maybe one more fact to add
15:11:37 <Karen> …is of course a Working Group at W3C produces recommendations
15:11:47 <TimCole> q+
15:11:50 <Karen> …under the new charter this group has the possibility to do proof of concept technical work
15:11:56 <Karen> …we have more possibilities to do things
15:12:09 <Karen> …so some of work and possible directions could very well be done in this group and published by this group
15:12:17 <Karen> …so we could help to move things forward; it's an extra liberty
15:12:19 <Karen> ack Tim
15:12:20 <ivan> ack tmichel
15:12:25 <ivan> ack TimCole
15:12:25 <Karen> Tim: So Peter, one of the other
15:12:33 <Karen> …issues that comes up in discussions about MathML
15:12:39 <Karen> …and wonder about its impact of support
15:12:54 <Karen> …It is in competition in some circles with LATEX
15:13:08 <Karen> …is there a problem that the community is a little divided about what needs to be decided
15:13:15 <Karen> …regarding use of mathematics on the web?
15:13:21 <Karen> Peter: I would say that is not a real debate
15:13:41 <Karen> …certainly the case that LATEC and other input forms are still prevalent and successful
15:13:52 <ivan> s/LATEC/LATEX/
15:13:52 <Karen> …it's rather verbose so you don't author by hand
15:13:58 <Karen> …simple syntax
15:14:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:14:05 <Karen> …WISIWG has not succeeded
15:14:16 <Karen> …Math WG has overlap with largest group in form of David @
15:14:32 <Karen> …there is no competition because LATEC tools can understand and render MathML
15:14:39 <Karen> …lots of tools do this
15:14:49 <Karen> …more like saying mark-down and HTML are in competition; not a big issue
15:14:54 <Karen> …there is one exception
15:15:01 <Karen> …@ academies @
15:15:04 <Karen> …precursor
15:15:11 <Karen> …focused on LATEC as a rendering model for the web
15:15:19 <ivan> s/LATEC/LATEX/
15:15:23 <Karen> …in our view, since MathJax went another way, not a good strategy
15:15:28 <Ralph> -> https://khan.github.io/KaTeX/ KaTeX
15:15:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> q- Just want to reinforce Peter's point that MathML is overwhelmingly preferred in publishing, TeX and LaTex are more for authoring but are usually converted to HTML+MathML when published.
15:15:47 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:15:48 <Karen> Ivan: Peter, could you put name on irc that Karen did not catch
15:15:56 <Karen> Bill: I undid my query
15:16:13 <Karen> …just reinforcing Peter's point that MathML overwhelmingly preferred by publishing
15:16:20 <ivan> ack Ralph
15:16:20 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to probe on "native" browser support
15:16:40 <Karen> Peter: deep down there are some deep technical discussions but don't want to get into those
15:16:43 <Karen> Ralph: Thank you, Peter
15:16:55 <Karen> …I work closely with Ivan; he encouraged me to attend this call today
15:17:05 <Karen> …I am with you on frustrations for native browser support
15:17:13 <Karen> …I'll paste the "can I use folk"
15:17:14 <clapierre> q+
15:17:18 <Ralph> -> http://caniuse.com/#feat=mathml CanIUse MathML
15:17:19 <Karen> …show that at least some browsers
15:17:27 <Karen> …2.5 who do support MathML natively
15:17:40 <Karen> …there is some sense in the browser world that polyfils are not a bad way to go
15:17:54 <Karen> …especially with a domain specific markup language
15:17:56 <pbelfanti> q+
15:18:18 <Karen> …and doing as a polyfill initially and building a corpus of published stuff on web is the way to encourage browsers  to provide embedded support and not rely on polyfill
15:18:30 <Karen> …can you say more about what is making MathJax less of a direction that publishers want to go
15:18:39 <Karen> …Bill is saying MathML is preferred format for pubishers
15:18:48 <Karen> …and MathJax works; so what is impeding its use?
15:19:06 <Karen> Peter: The first thing about the browser support; 'can I use this' is misleading
15:19:13 <Karen> …the implementations are partial
15:19:23 <Karen> …biggest problem is that WebKit is not anywhere near production ready
15:19:33 <Karen> …Geco is much better
15:19:45 <Karen> …biggest issue with browser support is that browser vendors are not doing it
15:19:51 <AH_Miller> The fact that Antenna House supports MathML with our XSL-FO engine sells a lot of licenses for us.
15:19:58 <Karen> …code is almost exclusively written by volunteers
15:20:10 <Karen> …WebKit went through several volunteers and failed to gain interest
15:20:12 <Ralph> s/Geco is/Gecko is/
15:20:17 <Karen> …Apple invested in voice-over
15:20:26 <Karen> …Google, Chrome speaks but does not render it
15:20:30 <Karen> …With Gecko it is different
15:20:43 <Karen> …clear that they don't currently have their own developers working on the code
15:20:55 <Karen> …Mozilla will invest time to fix issues they create
15:21:04 <Karen> …but they don't actively implement which is a huge issue
15:21:11 <Karen> …have been some spurts along the way
15:21:22 <Karen> …if we wait around, it would take five years to get to production levels
15:21:28 <Karen> …Why is MathJax not good enough?
15:21:29 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer
15:21:38 <Karen> …We are mission driven, we want to see native driven
15:21:52 <Karen> …and math is fundamental to communications; MathML fills that language gap
15:21:59 <Karen> …still lots to do in MathML3
15:22:03 <ivan> q?
15:22:05 <Karen> …practically speaking it's performance
15:22:13 <ivan> q+
15:22:16 <Karen> …MathML is a very complex spec and math layout itself is complex
15:22:32 <Karen> …expects a high level of typography that web does not yet have
15:22:38 <Karen> …polyfill does not cut it yet
15:22:59 <Karen> …in next release of MathJax we have a new output component that does not require rendering on the client
15:23:11 <Karen> …pragmatic reasons where you don't have Java scrip under your control
15:23:13 <Ralph> [thanks for this data, Peter; it will be useful as we continue push on browser developers]
15:23:23 <Karen> …or suffer from network  congestion on mobile devices
15:23:28 <ivan> ack clapierre
15:23:30 <Karen> …not depending on JS is crucial
15:23:31 <Karen> ack Charles
15:23:39 <clapierre> https://mathml-cloud.cloudapp.net
15:23:43 <Karen> Charles: I wanted to touch on a couple things about what we are doing at Benetech
15:23:58 <Karen> …MathML cloud to take either LATEX or MathML to give an accessibility description
15:24:04 <Karen> …we have some publishers using this in their pipeline
15:24:09 <Karen> …using as alt text
15:24:15 <Karen> …or description document
15:24:21 <Karen> …Benetech is also working on a matrix
15:24:39 <Karen> …a datebase, volunteer driven, as to what browsers, AT tech, MathJax
15:24:46 <Karen> …depending on OS, to fill that out
15:24:52 <Karen> …currently in alpha we are working on that
15:25:03 <Karen> …and working with Readium folks who are working on MathML support in their products
15:25:12 <Karen> …We are fully behind this and want to see it succeed
15:25:16 <ivan> ack pbelfanti
15:25:19 <Karen> …success of MathML is key
15:25:25 <Karen> Paul: quick question...
15:25:34 <Karen> Peter: point out that Readium includes MathJax
15:25:44 <Karen> …problem is that reading system developers don't integrate it into their reader
15:25:55 <Karen> …like Apple OS claims they have support but they don't...
15:26:00 <Karen> …why include a tool like MathJax
15:26:05 <Karen> …uses math on server
15:26:30 <Karen> Paul: I had a question about the previous statements on using polyfills as a viable option from an accessibility POV
15:26:44 <Karen> Peter: older than that
15:26:55 <Karen> …MathJax is not built in way to leverage partial implementations
15:27:09 <Karen> …looking to future you could look at web components; shadow DOM
15:27:11 <Ralph> i|Scribe: Karen|scribenick: Karen
15:27:15 <Karen> …we are disregarding
15:27:27 <Karen> …simply because it does not buy us anything; does not solve the rendering issues
15:27:35 <Karen> …Houdini has hope of simplifying the rendering
15:27:39 <Karen> …and doing the main job
15:27:43 <Karen> …that is something you can do
15:27:46 <Karen> …but at same time
15:28:07 <Karen> …you have actually a mark-up that should be possible to make HTML and SVG accessible on a level for MathML; that's what ARIA
15:28:09 <Karen> ...does
15:28:14 <Karen> …would be prudent to have a tool set
15:28:34 <Karen> …whatever direction math on web takes, it should supercede MathML
15:28:40 <Ralph> i|Peter: older|[Peter notes that MathJax is not a polyfill in the modern sense]
15:28:56 <Karen> Scribenick: Dauwhe
15:28:57 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:29:03 <ivan> ack ivan
15:29:13 <dauwhe> ivan: I see that Karen is leaving
15:29:23 <dauwhe> ... do you have to run now?
15:29:27 <dauwhe> pkra: I can do one more
15:29:32 <dauwhe> ivan: I was on the queue
15:29:55 <dauwhe> ... let's say you have a free hand in the sense of trying to modify MathML to work better with current environment
15:30:01 <dauwhe> ... and you had a free hand in MathJax
15:30:16 <dauwhe> ... what could be done to move the whole situation out of the current "dip"
15:30:21 <dauwhe> ... what actions would be useful?
15:30:38 <dauwhe> ... taking into account that the browsers don't care
15:30:59 <dauwhe> ... we can put possible answers on the agenda for a new meeting
15:31:19 <dauwhe> ... we have an idea of where we are, the question is where we can go
15:31:29 <dauwhe> ... this can be discussed at TPAC
15:31:34 <dauwhe> pkra: I won't be at TPAC
15:31:55 <dauwhe> ivan: thank you very much Peter!
15:32:26 <dauwhe> ivan: we did not plan for other agenda items
15:32:39 <dauwhe> ... are there any pressing items?
15:33:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> Dave has permanent merit status. A few minutes of scribing makes no difference.
15:33:11 <dauwhe> ... so let's get back to the topic next week, and we can gather questions
15:33:17 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has left #dpub
15:33:24 <dauwhe> ivan: meeting is adjourned. Thanks all!
15:33:26 <clapierre> clapierre has left #dpub
15:36:52 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:36:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html ivan
15:37:04 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:37:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:37:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Miller, Ralph_Swick, Peter, Krautzberger, Alan, Stearns, Tim_Cole, Charles_LaPierre, duga, Karen, Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Michel, Bert,
15:37:07 <Zakim> ... Nick, Paul, Belfanti, (Having, trouble, logging, into, WebEx), Dave_Cramer
15:37:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:37:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
15:37:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:37:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items