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13:57:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:57:07 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:57:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
13:57:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:57:08 <trackbot> Date: 04 September 2015
13:57:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
13:57:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
13:59:02 <fesch> fesch has joined #svg-a11y
14:01:08 <fesch> present+ fesch
14:01:48 <AmeliaBR> present+ Amelia
14:03:17 <AmeliaBR> scribe: AmeliaBR
14:03:54 <AmeliaBR> TOPIC: Roles & Properties Taxonomy (Amelia's Proposal)
14:04:13 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I think there have been some changes, do you want to describe them?
14:05:30 <fesch> abr: main differences from earlier (week and half ago) is attributes,  roles haven't changed much, will try and post an updated summary before next weeks call
14:05:58 <fesch> abr: differences from how Fred has marked up, focus on making it machine readable.
14:06:22 <fesch> abr: one conflict was different use of valuemin and valuemax
14:06:58 <fesch> abr: some of the structural guides, Fred had distinct roles for guides
14:07:46 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Jason sent a note to the list, suggesting we focus on what can a sighted person perceive from a chart.
14:08:30 <AmeliaBR> Jason: My point was that the AT user should be able to access a similar level of information and precision as a sighted viewer would get.
14:08:52 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Did you think my reply was reasonable?
14:10:33 <AmeliaBR> Jason: I think it will depend a lot on the graphic and how much information the author has included.  Sometimes the data is unreasonable to include, but the sighted user would still get overall, imprecise sense of the data.
14:11:07 <AmeliaBR> ... values and ranges and other things you would want to know about, that can be approximated by visual inspection, even if exact data isn't included.
14:11:25 <AmeliaBR> Fred: That sounds more like observations that statistical min/max/mean etc.
14:11:29 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:11:35 <fesch> q?
14:11:53 <AmeliaBR> Jason: Observations, yes, but we need to think of how to provide that in a systematic way.
14:12:20 <fesch> abr: good point, approach I have done so far has been annotating charts with raw data
14:13:54 <fesch> abr: one thing someone brought up last week, was a certain value was encoded on the chart - like x,y position
14:15:28 <fesch> abr: - not my ideal, but reverse engineering data may be a possible approach, to avoid doubling the size
14:16:07 <fesch> fe: becomes problematic when you have non linear scales, and polar transformations...
14:16:54 <fesch> abr: something to think about... I prefer to keep data and representation separately
14:17:58 <AmeliaBR> Jason: I think that's reasonable, but I also think that it's important in those data-heavy cases for authors to include summary data
14:18:45 <AmeliaBR> Fred: That's one reason I was using the ARIA min and max properties all over the place.  But that wouldn't do other statistics like medians or trends.
14:19:32 <AmeliaBR> Jason: Yes, there must be reasonable limits.  But we also need to be sure that if the full data isn't included in accessible format, then appropriate summary is.
14:19:57 <AmeliaBR> ... For example, I brought up sonification, and you really need to know the data to know what frequencies should be used.
14:22:05 <AmeliaBR> Fred: The other question I had was for when data is represented by aesthetics, such as color or size.  Could you have multiple palettes, and just swap one in or the other.  Maybe even audio palettes of tones.
14:22:18 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: Author-supplied alternative palettes, or AT-generated?
14:22:40 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Maybe author, but probably AT.
14:23:37 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: That's pretty much what I'd suggested last week, but I'd suggested you'd need the raw data & then use it to create a new mapping.  Are you suggesting an AT could map from one color palette to another without needing the data?
14:24:17 <AmeliaBR> Fred: To a degree, although it would be difficult for continuous color.  It would be easier with a discrete set of values.
14:24:38 <AmeliaBR> ...Even just to provide pop-up labels or tooltips.
14:25:43 <AmeliaBR> Fred: In RAID, we had a checkbox option to give labels as an enhancement to color.
14:26:17 <fesch> s/RAID/RAVE?
14:26:58 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: But that's slightly easier, because that's in the same charting software. It's more complicated when the AT doesn't have the raw data, only the file.
14:27:45 <AmeliaBR> Jason: As a reminder, we do have WCAG rule that color should never be the only distinguishing factor.
14:28:02 <fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html
14:28:55 <AmeliaBR> Fred: We want to get a clear list of roles in the module as soon as possible.
14:29:13 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: The main change from that summary are that we agreed no special rules for special chart types.
14:30:40 <fesch> abr: talked about doc role - letting AT know that you are getting into a area with semantic meaning
14:31:08 <fesch> abr: figure is different
14:31:29 <fesch> abr: figure role defines how it relates to the larger document
14:33:27 <fesch> abr: graphics- doc would be the default element for SVG
14:34:26 <fesch> q?
14:34:32 <fesch> ack Amel
14:48:51 <AmeliaBR> [long discussion on focus vs point of regard, figure vs graphics-doc: when would we use both, how would they be navigated.]
14:49:39 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Did we, or should we, resolve on the graphics-doc role?
14:50:23 <AmeliaBR> Jason: I'm not sure it's helpful to decide on roles one at a time.  I think we need to assess a taxonomy as a whole.
14:57:20 <fesch> abr: will try to see if graphics-doc children have different properties
15:07:49 <AmeliaBR> [follow up of Fred's email re aria-owns, Amelia suggests maybe an aria-labelledby relationship would have been more appropriate]
15:10:02 <AmeliaBR> trackbot, end telcon
15:10:02 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:10:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been fesch, Amelia
15:10:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:10:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/04-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
15:10:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:10:11 <RRSAgent> I see no action items