13:51:48 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:51:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-tt-irc 13:51:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:51:50 Zakim has joined #tt 13:51:52 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:51:52 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:51:53 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:51:53 Date: 03 September 2015 14:00:29 Frans has joined #tt 14:01:49 mike has joined #tt 14:02:39 Present: Frans, Pierre, Nigel 14:02:41 chair: nigel 14:03:04 atai has joined #tt 14:03:30 Present+ Mike 14:04:00 Present+ Andreas 14:04:14 Present+ Courtney 14:04:16 courtney has joined #tt 14:05:52 Topic: This meeting 14:06:03 nigel: Goes through agenda. Any particularly urgent topics? 14:06:08 mike: ATSC liaison. 14:06:18 nigel: Okay, and is there any other business? 14:06:41 pal: I'll only be available for the first 45 minutes so if we could cover those issues sooner that would be ideal. 14:06:56 Present+ tmichel 14:07:03 group: no AOB 14:07:23 Topic: ATSC Liaison 14:07:27 action-418? 14:07:27 action-418 -- Nigel Megitt to Send response back to atsc as per https://lists.w3.org/archives/member/member-tt/2015aug/0019.html -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN 14:07:27 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/418 14:08:32 nigel: David Singer raised a concern with the agreed text that it wasn't as clear as it could be 14:08:36 ... about what we were asking ATSC. 14:09:20 ... He suggested changing "However, we would like to better understand the authoring requirement for a color palette beyond sRGB." 14:09:30 ... to "However, we would like to understand your need to express colors outside the gamut of sRGB, or if there would be difficulty mapping sRGB colors into the chosen output color space." 14:09:33 pal has joined #tt 14:10:25 nigel: That was a change to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2015Aug/0019.html 14:11:18 mike: I don't object to the changes, and I'm happy to explain this at the other end. 14:14:04 nigel: If there are no other changes, I will send this by the end of my working day today. 14:15:02 pal: Okay, that's fine by me. 14:15:30 Action-418: Send revised text as at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2015Sep/0000.html 14:15:30 Notes added to Action-418 Send response back to atsc as per https://lists.w3.org/archives/member/member-tt/2015aug/0019.html. 14:16:12 Topic: Unicode liaison 14:16:15 Action-417? 14:16:15 Action-417 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Create ticket with unicode for cldr proposal, or add to existing one. -- due 2015-08-27 -- CLOSED 14:16:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/417 14:16:37 nigel: This has been done - it's at http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8915 14:17:14 pal: There's nothing more to add on this for now. 14:17:36 nigel: I looked at the status of this and the milestone it has been set for is for the release in 6 months time. 14:17:51 ... They seem to operate on a half-yearly cycle, and I guess we'll be too late for the release in 2 weeks. 14:18:54 Topic: @codecs registry 14:18:59 action-419? 14:18:59 action-419 -- Mike Dolan to Add other ttml profiles to the codecsregistry wiki page -- due 2015-09-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:18:59 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/419 14:19:33 mike: I've added all the ones I know about. The EBU ones took a little digging because they 14:19:48 ... hadn't been published yet, but I got the URLs from Andreas. 14:20:26 ... One question back to EBU and DECE and David Singer is: is it sufficient to get to the basic 14:20:34 ... profile or do we need to signal version level granularity? 14:20:40 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/CodecsRegistry 14:21:38 mike: I don't recall if the EBU designators are what they sent me or what I made up. 14:22:01 ... For the DECE ones there's a symbolic section to put version in. It's almost not a question 14:22:19 ... for W3C. We should have a consistent policy and cooperation with MPEG on how granular 14:22:44 ... the designator needs to be. We either need an algorithm like we did for DECE, but then you 14:22:56 ... wouldn't be able to discriminate the version from the short name. 14:23:21 Andreas: What is the reason behind the limitation to 4 characters. Is it strict? 14:23:49 mike: It's desirable, because if we want to move this to the MP4A they would have to be 4 character codes. 14:24:05 ... As far as our registry goes it just has to be a small length. This might be relevant because 14:24:18 ... currently there are a lot of missing standardised codes for codecs, like for HEVC and other things. 14:24:38 ... The original MPEG approach was for RFC 491, and every time we wanted a new version we 14:25:40 s/491/6391 14:25:52 mike: had to publish a new document. 14:26:19 Andreas: I wonder which has more importance. The other question is if we have a requirement 14:26:34 ... to signal the version of the TTML profile through the identifier. I think we do have that 14:26:54 ... requirement. TTML has the advantage that it can limit its own profile to tt.. with the number 14:27:10 ... at the end. I think some signalling of versions should be possible in the identifier. That's 14:27:18 ... important, especially if there's a major version change. 14:27:32 mike: I see that. I think that's the question. If we want to have a short name that signals that 14:27:52 ... then we can start with 1 and hope we don't run out of 1..F numbers. 14:28:05 pal: What about 2x 4c codes, one for format and one for version? 14:28:21 mike: Are you suggesting overloading the 2nd 4c code? 14:28:37 Andreas: the reason if I understood right for the 4c code is that it would be easier to move the 14:28:53 ... codes to another registry later, that has the strict limitation of 4 characters. 14:29:12 mike: Exactly. I'd like to engage David on this, so we can continue this offline with him wearing 14:29:27 ... his MPEG hat and see what he thinks is advisable. In the meantime Andreas do you want me 14:29:31 ... to modify the table? 14:29:44 Andreas: I think it would be good to use the URIs we defined for EBU-TT-D, and for EBU-TT 14:29:53 ... Nigel, Frans and I need to check what we will use. 14:29:55 Frans: Yes. 14:30:08 Andreas: We'll send you an email possibly today or tomorrow. 14:30:27 ... With the profile definition, we had a discussion earlier. What I understood from Glenn was 14:31:37 ... that a profile definition could be a document that restricts the profile of TTML. 14:31:49 nigel: I think the confusion here is that we did agree to map an identifier to a specification 14:32:08 ... without a TTML profile definition document. 14:32:24 ... There are already some entries in the table with n/a on the Profile Definition column. 14:32:42 mike: That's right. If Profile Definition Documents get created later they can be added to the 14:32:44 ... table later. 14:32:49 Andreas: Makes sense. 14:33:34 nigel: I'd like to close the action and if there are more changes to make then track them separately. 14:33:58 mike: Clearly there's more work to be done, with an action on myself, Andreas and David to talk more about the version topic. 14:34:04 close Action-419 14:34:04 Closed Action-419. 14:34:08 nigel: Thank you! 14:34:31 Topic: Issues 14:34:56 pal: I think I captured all of Glenn's input as separate issues starting with Issue-404. 14:34:58 issue-404? 14:34:58 issue-404 -- Where is #image feature defined? -- pending review 14:34:58 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/404 14:35:21 pal: Glenn asked where the #image feature is defined. That is in SMPTE-TT so ST2052-1. 14:35:36 ... The way it works in the document is that #image is defined relative to the smpte-tt extension 14:36:02 ... namespace, and in §6.3 the namespace is defined, so I think that's pretty straightforward. 14:36:26 ... I don't know what to say more than that so unless Glenn has more specifics I think that's fine as is. 14:36:33 issue-405? 14:36:33 issue-405 -- why is #nested-span prohibited on image profile? -- pending review 14:36:33 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/405 14:37:17 pal: Glenn noticed that the span content element is forbidden, and asked why nested span is 14:37:31 ... also prohibited. I think the answer is that one of the goals was to list explicitly every feature 14:37:51 ... and whether it is allowed or not allowed to reduce any potential ambiguity. 14:38:23 pal: Again, unless Glenn has a more specific concern my inclination is to do nothing. 14:38:37 issue-406? 14:38:37 issue-406 -- #lineBreak-uax14 is never 'used' by a document? -- raised 14:38:37 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/406 14:39:02 pal: Glenn points out that documents never use the feature because it impacts only the 14:39:26 ... presentation processor. The question I have is: if I read TTML1 correctly, this instruction is 14:39:39 ... sent to the processor through the presence of a feature designator in a profile attached to 14:39:55 ... the TTML document. This is unusual maybe. One question is: what is the default? If nothing 14:40:12 ... is specified is the implementation not supposed to support uax-14 or is there no default? 14:40:19 ... Since Glenn isn't on the call I'll email him. 14:40:34 mike: I took this as a more generic comment not specific to this feature. What you say seems 14:40:51 ... really odd to me. I thought it was about the choice of English "used" vs "shall". 14:41:23 pal: If you read TTML1 §9.4 it says that if a profile requires the usage of the feature ... then 14:41:30 ... the processor shall use it. 14:41:35 mike: So it's a parameter? 14:41:47 pal: That's what's weird - it isn't a parameter. 14:41:53 mike: So it is pretty special. 14:42:00 ... I think we need Glenn to sort this out. It's odd. 14:42:10 pal: I was really surprised that it isn't a ttp: parameter. 14:42:23 ... The secondary question for EBU, DECE and others is: what is the default? If you don't get 14:42:43 ... a profile document with the #lineBreak-uax14 in what should the processor do? 14:42:57 mike: I understand the comment now because we don't have a profile document in IMSC 1 14:43:09 ... so this could never be interpreted as anything other than the default, which is undefined. 14:43:30 pal: Thanks for the summary! I'll ask Glenn, otherwise I can't make progress on it. 14:43:40 reopen issue-406 14:43:40 Re-opened issue-406. 14:43:48 action: pal follow up with Glenn on issue-406 14:43:49 Created ACTION-420 - Follow up with glenn on issue-406 [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-09-10]. 14:43:59 issue-407? 14:43:59 issue-407 -- Excluding #bidi and #direction on image profile is inconsistent -- raised 14:43:59 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/407 14:45:28 nigel: On the linebreak-uax14, I had taken it to mean that processors that don't implement 14:45:43 ... the algorithm shouldn't process documents that require it, but those that do implement 14:45:48 ... the algorithm can process any document. 14:46:33 pal: On issue-407, the point that Glenn raised is that's it is inconsistent. My action is to propose some concrete changes. 14:46:50 Andreas: Is it writingMode or direction? I think direction and bidi are a pair, but writingMode 14:46:57 ... can be used independently of bidi. 14:47:25 pal: The #writingmode-horizontal feature depends on all three. 14:47:42 ... I have to dig into this and figure out exactly what's happening. The fundamental issue 14:48:01 ... that Glenn is pointing out is that the #bidi feature says "shall not be used" and yet 14:48:20 ... #writingMode-horizontal is allowed. The second issue is that #bidi is supported if it 14:48:40 ... supports all the other features. If may be possible to support a subset of the other features. 14:49:03 Andreas: That's my understanding - I see no contradiction because if the #unicode-bidi feature 14:49:17 ... is not supported you don't care what's there, and #writingMode-horizontal makes no reference 14:49:25 ... to #unicodeBidi. I can't see the problem. 14:49:39 pal: I understand Glenn's problem to be that it says "Shall Not be used" and one interpretation 14:49:55 ... is that it means that none of the subsidiary features can be used. The other interpretation 14:50:08 ... is yours, which is to say as soon as one of the subsidiary features is not supported then bidi 14:50:19 ... is not supported. Maybe there's a better way of wording the current table. 14:50:39 reopen issue-407 14:50:39 Re-opened issue-407. 14:50:53 issue-408? 14:50:53 issue-408 -- Initial value of color -- pending review 14:50:53 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/408 14:51:17 pal: Glenn says it doesn't make sense to define a default colour of white. I see nothing in TTML1 14:51:34 ... that prevents an application from defining the initial value of tts:color. The IMSC 1 spec 14:51:42 ... just does that. I see no reason it can't be done. 14:52:01 mike: Taking a pedantic approach, there's a distinction between a profile and an application. 14:52:15 ... Clearly an application needs to define a default colour. The question is whether you can 14:52:31 ... define it in a profile. I can see Glenn's point although I don't agree. 14:53:16 nigel: That's interesting. I quite like the TTML1 approach of not defining a default colour, because 14:53:24 ... it doesn't make sense given video of unknown colour. 14:53:52 pal: The initial value of the tts:color attribute is considered to be implementation dependent. 14:54:07 mike: Then I take exception to Glenn's comment and I think it's okay to define a default color 14:54:18 ... in a profile. Profiles have the right to do that - see SDP-US for example. 14:54:31 pal: Unless Glenn can point to a conformance issue my inclination is to do nothing on that one. 14:55:51 Topic: WebVTT <--> TTML mapping document 14:56:03 Courtney: I'm just finishing formatting the document and should be able to post it maybe 14:56:13 ... tomorrow, so I'll work with Thierry to figure out the next step. 14:56:28 tmichel: Yeah, sure, when you're done ping me and we'll see where to publish, and go for it. 14:56:40 Topic: HTMLCue proposal 14:56:55 nigel: Shortly before the meeting I sent round a tiny update to Andreas's proposal. 14:57:43 ... I added to the What? section: 14:57:57 … The default onenter() handler in the HTMLCue interface would attach the cue data to the target element; conversely the default onexit() handler would clear the target element's HTML. 14:58:13 Andreas: I did not check on the interface, but that's fine for me. I think it's fine to give more 14:58:25 ... concrete information regarding the HTMLCue interface. From my side it would be good to 14:58:27 ... go ahead. 14:58:56 Action-415? 14:58:56 Action-415 -- Thierry Michel to Send nigel email addresses of htmlcue proposal reviewers -- due 2015-08-27 -- CLOSED 14:58:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/415 14:59:00 action-416: 14:59:00 action-416 -- Nigel Megitt to Edit proposal and send to htmlcue proposal reviewers as listed by tmichel, following action-415 -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN 14:59:00 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/416 14:59:16 action-416: [meeting 2015-09-03] Go ahead with Nigel's proposed edit 14:59:16 Notes added to action-416 Edit proposal and send to htmlcue proposal reviewers as listed by tmichel, following action-415. 14:59:54 nigel: I'll give people a short opportunity to respond to this before sending hopefully early next week 15:00:04 ... in case there are any other comments from those who couldn't attend today. 15:00:27 Topic: Next week's meeting 15:01:10 nigel: Unless someone wants to step in and chair then our next meeting will be Thursday 17th September. 15:01:33 nigel: That's what we'll do then unless I hear otherwise. 15:02:48 nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn now - see you in two weeks if not at IBC! 15:02:54 ... Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 15:03:01 rrsagent, make logs public 15:03:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:04:44 s/those issues/the IMSC issues 15:10:54 s/The #writingmode-horizontal feature depends on all three/The #bidi feature depends on #direction, #unicodeBidi and #writingMode-horizontal 15:12:49 s/…/... 15:13:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:13:49 s/The default onenter/"The default onenter 15:13:56 s/HTML./HTML." 15:13:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:15:08 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:15:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:24:40 nigel has joined #tt 16:30:42 Zakim has left #tt