14:47:09 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:47:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-mobile-a11y-irc 14:47:11 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:47:11 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:47:13 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:47:14 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:47:14 Date: 03 September 2015 14:47:15 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:47:24 regrets+ Henny 14:55:13 Kim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:55:23 trackbot, start meeting 14:55:25 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:55:27 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:55:27 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:55:28 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:55:28 Date: 03 September 2015 14:55:48 chair: Kimberly_Patch 14:58:00 agenda+ questions on techniques and progress 14:58:02 agenda+ discussion of David’s Success Criteria http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 14:58:03 agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, September 10 15:01:36 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:43 present+ Kathy 15:02:40 Jan has joined #mobile-a11y 15:04:34 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 15:05:39 present+ jeanne 15:05:47 David has joined #mobile-a11y 15:06:38 Henny has joined #mobile-a11y 15:06:52 test 15:06:59 Alan_ has joined #mobile-a11y 15:07:03 +present 15:08:18 Kathy: focusing on touch the last few weeks. Started on wiki, David went through our success document. If we're going to do an extension or have other techniques we were looking at defining what the success criteria would be. Things important for mobile or a touch interface. We've had the conversation – it's not just about mobile but about ways of interacting 15:08:46 Kathy: looking at that and say what's important, what's needed, how does that work with keyboard access in shortcuts or gestures and shortcuts and having a big discussion around that 15:08:58 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_(Guideline_2.5) 15:09:16 zakim, take up next 15:09:16 agendum 1. "questions on techniques and progress" taken up [from Kim] 15:09:22 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal.html 15:09:29 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:09:46 zakim, drop item 1 15:09:46 agendum 1, questions on techniques and progress, dropped 15:10:11 zakim, take up next 15:10:11 agendum 2. "discussion of David’s Success Criteria http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html" taken up [from Kim] 15:10:32 Kathy: David overview 15:10:53 David: it's all pointing now to github 15:11:08 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal.html 15:11:19 David: first proposal, reworked it 15:11:59 q+ to ask for source of proposal -- TR or Editor's draft? 15:12:01 David: second one is I pulled out all proposed criteria, combed through discussion to try to put everything all in one place so we can see what everyone is saying 15:12:05 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:12:15 +present 15:12:44 David: guidelines, comments about what people are saying about them, and at bottom an understanding document – those things would be linked to the corresponding success criteria. That's where it is right now 15:12:56 present+ David_MacDonald 15:13:12 Kathy: this is really great, appreciate getting all comments in there 15:13:20 Kathy: biggest discussion all elements available by touch 15:13:36 David: a lot of strong opinions around this 15:13:47 David: that's separate from getting an overview of how stuff is laid out 15:14:12 Kathy: a good topic for today touch accessibility in general. David thanks for all your work on that. Any general questions about what we've done to date before we get into a conversation more about touch 15:14:14 q- 15:15:01 Jeanne: quick question for David – what did you copy over to form the proposal, first public working draft or editor's draft? 15:15:02 David: link from the website, first link that was on the page for mobile 15:16:19 Jeanne: that's the TR document – that doesn't have all the work we did this spring and the follow-up we did for comments on the first public working draft. I'd like to suggest that we continue the discussion, the discussion is great, and thanks for all the work to get something in writing and getting the discussion going but not to consider that discussion proposal as any kind of document –... 15:16:20 ...it doesn't have the work from the spring and it doesn't have the right code so it needs to be done over, which is fine, but as we are doing stuff and get hub we can't think about this proposal as the document going forward 15:16:54 Jeanne: we need to create document going forward. Before we start stripping out things and putting it into an understanding document we need to think about what we want to do. 15:17:03 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:17:10 present+jon_avila 15:17:22 Kathy: as far as the understanding document, should we follow what what WCAG is currently doing 15:18:12 Jeanne: it makes sense for Wicca because it's a large document, but what we are doing is a small document, going off to different document might not be as usable. It's fairly easy to split things off, but it's harder to put them back together again if that's what we decide back to do 15:18:54 Jeanne: Patrick has raised some points about whether or not we should be doing extensions, a new version of WCAG things like that – I don't want us to get caught up and that too much. There's a lot in flux 15:19:16 Kathy: what I'd like to talk about today is touch accessibility – there's been lively discussion. Have people been able to read through what David has done – nice summary at the bottom 15:19:30 * I've read most of it 15:19:32 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:19:36 Kathy: we will take a couple minutes to read through 15:20:11 Kathy: we are talking about the first one, 2.5 15:20:15 s/Wicca/WCAG 15:20:43 David: summary at bottom 15:20:43 s/and get hub/in Github 15:22:17 David: I created a general guideline – all functionality by touch. Gregg rather put in WCAG, Patrick wants to talk about all touch events, Jonathan is on the call I'll let him speak for himself. generally Jon and I were in the same camp – want to see something happen for touch in new success criteria. 15:23:15 David: I think it would be very difficult to require all functionality to work with touch. Three reasons. It may not be possible. There may be settings that can only be done on the keyboard for an administrator or something like that. I think what we are really trying to say is anything that is touch responsive ought to be available for anybody using assistive technology. So I reworded guideline 15:23:52 David: some discussion underneath that. I think the uptake of that is we have to have a serious conversation – Jeannne touched on earlier – do we want to act as an extension or try to roll it into WCAG 15:23:58 q+ 15:24:30 David: the way I'm reading it is if we are trying to create some advice, advantage is all the jurisdictions that follow WCAG would be required to follow, disadvantage is some connections would be contrived 15:24:52 David: that's a summary of the first part – touch accessibility. Underneath that there are five success criteria. I'll stop here 15:26:07 Jon: the aspect of this that were dealing with is some things in my opinion are broken in the mobile environment particularly IOS but also android – we're trying to bridge that gap – what needs to be accessible – terminology seems to be a problem tap, touch what does it mean. We have to figure that part out in order to proceed 15:26:57 Kathy: from reading Gregg he was saying that the keyboard interface does include touch and anything else, speech, but I think most people who read this think of keyboard interface as physical keyboard – I think that your point Jon 15:27:25 Jon: and beyond that it's misleading, you can't use voice on iOS to do all those things you can with the keyboard interface, you can't use touch with voiceover – it's broken 15:28:04 q+ 15:28:10 q+ 15:28:14 Jon: keyboard interface, it's meant to go further. Demonstration of issues on iOS – understand in detail actual problems better recommendation about how to go forward. Part of the problem is we haven't done a very good job of demonstrating where those gaps are 15:28:16 q+ 15:28:24 ack David 15:29:33 David: long conversation about this with Gregg – I think he got it. Example ever populating twitter type of thing, swipe down with one finger when voiceover off and it's fine but then voiceover on and do the equivalent of a swipe which is three fingers down and it's not – none of that stuff works when you have voiceover on. Greg really gets that WCAG real-world problems of people with... 15:29:35 ...disabilities 15:29:42 ack Detlev 15:30:39 Hover is not well implemented on touch 15:31:13 Detlev: not sure I understand that you can't make everything touch accessible. Browser-based. I don't get the example I think that David's example with some keyword that has to be put in so there you would have a virtual keyboard displayed on your mobile device and you could use touch to activate things via the virtual keyboard. I'm still not quite sure that I get the point that it may... 15:31:15 ...not be possible to provide everything by touch. So that's one thing. The other is for the inverse case keyboard accessibility there are cases where certain things are not keyboard accessible and where we have ways of meeting the success criteria anyway by providing alternative means of inputting – for example drag-and-drop an equivalent implemented operable in other ways 15:32:31 Detlev: so there are parts that don't meet WCAG, but alternative way. If we include button presses, things like the home button on devices which are also tactile, if we include those iis there anything that's impossible to do by touch 15:32:49 Jan: entering name – blackberry phones that have a physical keyboard need physical keyboard 15:33:23 Detlev: amend that rule by touch or physical keys on the device – just not attached keyboard 15:33:37 Jan: problem is app developer doesn't know whether company will come out with something that is just little screen and keyboard 15:33:48 Jan: if we exclude the text entry case I think almost everything else could be covered 15:34:16 q+ to ask if the hover problem has been solved in touch? 15:34:16 Jan: somebody said Gregg's interpretation is that keyboard interface covers touch interaction – is that right? 15:34:45 David_ has joined #mobile-a11y 15:34:47 David: maybe we should get him on the call 15:35:00 Jan: if it is so wide maybe it shouldn't be called keyboard 15:35:02 hmmm my mike is no working? 15:35:26 Kathy: that's Jonathan's point, everything should be available by touch on keyboard but it's broken 15:36:26 talking... will dial in 15:36:28 call dropped – can someone else scribe for a minute 15:37:59 Henny: flexible content order 15:38:47 Jeanne: examples of touch not accessible – have they solved the hover problem – a lot of fly out menus used to be done, other examples and JavaScript for right-click, which isn't accessible anyway but I'm trying to think of places where touch doesn't work 15:39:14 q+ to talk about touch and mouse and speech 15:40:12 q_ 15:40:15 q- 15:40:23 s/q_// 15:40:42 ack jan 15:41:06 q+ 15:41:13 Kathy: we recently did an audit on a website, not application based. Issues with touch and CSS interaction. after using touch kind of locked the screen. Touch is blocking lots of things – combination of what they had done in the code. There are a lot of issues right now with Touch depending on how you had coded things 15:41:22 scribe: jeanne 15:42:08 Kim: I keep coming back to the idea, that touch is a kind of mouse, is touch an everything-equivalent? Or is touch a mouse-equivalent. 15:42:55 ... Google just came out with new keyboard equivalents. Keyboard is moving into the mobile space. 15:43:25 ... we dont' want to perpetuate the mouse/keyboard problems in mobile as a touch/keyboard 15:43:57 ... I want voice input, but there is no speech interface in mobile, it is all based on the keyboard. 15:44:24 q? 15:44:32 ... we have to look at the keyboard connects with touch on mobile as it is different with the way mouse connects to keyboard on the desktop 15:44:48 Jan: The mouse has an inactive state, but touch is always active. 15:45:18 ... for now. The Samsung stylus now sees where you are hovering. 15:45:33 Kim: There is something missing on the phone, and something missing on the desktop. 15:46:02 q+ 15:46:36 ... things are crashing together. I haven't finalized my thoughts, if we say that touch is available, what do we do when air gestures come along? And the next thing? I think we need to tie everything back to the keyboard. 15:47:17 ... Users who are blind can use touch and keyboard. Speech users can only use keyboard. This diverges from the desktop situation where blind users could only use keyboard. 15:47:52 ... it might not seem as important for blind users to have everything be keyboard accessible, but like the desktop, speech users can only use the keyboard. 15:48:05 ... the use cases are different in large ways. 15:48:08 q? 15:49:14 Kim: The user should be able to control how they intereact with the device, and the user should be able to use any mix of input methods. I don't know if this is possible. It gets tricky when things are mixed. 15:49:41 ... saying everything should be available by touch causes problems 15:50:20 David: WCAG says it has to work with keyboard. So we have this. The blind community are using touch, and some touch is working, and some is not. 15:50:39 ... blind people use the screen and can operate the screen. We need to make sure things don't break. 15:50:53 ... the user agent developers need to fix things on their end. 15:52:08 ... but the authors need to fix things too 15:52:42 ... WCAG only applies to things that disproportionally concern people with disabilitites 15:53:00 ... we need to address that VoiceOver breaks touch 15:53:24 Kim: Can we need to go wider, that when there is a mix of input methods, they need to work together? 15:53:48 ... If someone has a keyboard plugged in, when you are using speech, touch is @@ 15:54:04 David: I think that is a separate success criteria 15:54:23 Kim: It's a wider principle, that one input method should not break another method. 15:54:40 David: I think it is separate issue, like non-interference in WCAG. 15:55:05 Jon: the one thing that really bothers me about the keyboard interface is there's no good way of knowing what actions are available 15:55:19 scribe: kim 15:55:29 ack Kim 15:55:29 Kim, you wanted to talk about touch and mouse and speech 15:55:35 ack David 15:55:41 ack jon_avlia 15:55:47 ack jon_avila 15:56:03 Jon: what I like about IndieUI is it's independent – keyboard access ties back to customizable part but being able to explore what are my available options kkeyword is not very useful 15:56:52 Jon: I agree with Kim we do need overall to cover this – we do need certain things with touch but we want to go beyond this. Certain things dealing with small screens and people with disabilities – we want to have guidelines that go beyond WCAG that deal with some of these issues 15:56:56 q? 15:57:32 allanj has joined #mobile-a11y 15:58:14 Kathy: great conversation – think about where we need to go with this. If all of you could take a look and read through the touch accessibility discussion we can continue this next week. We have been in parallel working on the techniques as well. Plan to revisit techniques as well do that work in parallel. I think as we work on the guideline we will come up with other techniques 15:58:52 Kathy: need a volunteer to put these subdocuments on Github 15:59:13 Jeanne: if you can volunteer send an email to Kathy, Kim and I and we can start talking about the requirements 15:59:54 Jeanne: I would also encourage people to follow discussions about extensions that are occurring in various places right now 16:06:00 Jeanne: I would encourage people to keep talking about the bigger issue of should this be an extension or should this be under WCAG 16:06:22 I have to drop off the call. Apologies. 16:09:21 Jeanne: zoom more than 200%… 16:09:22 David: maybe A, AA 16:09:24 Jon: the other issue with extension is people feel people would think it's optional 16:10:03 Jon: no matter what requirements will be out of sync with the current standards 16:10:49 Jeanne: some of the key settlements of court cases recent big one even required our document – mention specifically the mobile accessibility task force note. So what we get on paper is going to have an impact 16:13:11 Alan: we can talk is long as we want, but what's the legal opinion how does the government want it 16:14:59 rrsagent, make minutes 16:14:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:20:02 Present+ Henny, Alan, Jan 16:20:17 rrsagent, make minutes 16:20:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:21:12 Present+ Detlev 16:22:16 rrsagent, make minutes 16:22:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:24:42 rrsagent, bye 16:24:42 I see no action items