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14:52:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-dpub-irc
14:52:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:52:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:52:15 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:52:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:52:16 <trackbot> Date: 31 August 2015
14:52:17 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
14:52:36 <ivan> Regrets: Ben, Ayla
14:53:04 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/3ef7300e473f4bceb360a7453e5acb75@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com
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14:56:27 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer
14:57:00 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya_Siegman
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14:57:11 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Aug/0173.html
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14:59:52 <pkra> +present Peter Krautzberger
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14:59:58 <ivan> Present+ Michael_Miller
14:59:58 <brady_duga> present+ duga
15:00:17 <ivan> Present+ Heather
15:00:18 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
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15:00:19 <HeatherF> present+ Heather_Flanagan
15:00:40 <ivan> Present+ Luc_Audrain
15:00:48 <ivan> Present+ Charles
15:00:54 <HeatherF> Noooo! Scribing is scary!
15:01:01 <ivan> Present+ Alan_Stearns
15:01:02 <pkra> I could scribe.
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15:01:40 <pkra> noise?
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15:01:51 <ivan> Present+ Vlad
15:01:59 <HeatherF> That was Vladimir
15:02:00 <pkra> brady?
15:02:02 <pkra> ah
15:02:03 <astearns> vladimir's line is noisy
15:02:06 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
15:02:06 <brady_duga> Not me
15:02:09 <brady_duga> I am muted
15:02:18 <Vlad> I am on mute now
15:02:20 <tzviya> scribenick: peter
15:02:29 <mgylling> Present+ Markus Gylling
15:02:31 <Vlad> Are you still getting noise from my line?
15:02:32 <ivan> scribenick: pkra
15:02:35 <Vlad> present+
15:02:38 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/24-dpub-minutes.html
15:02:46 <pkra> tzviya: re last week's minutes.
15:02:48 <pkra> ... any comments?
15:02:57 <pkra> ... minutes are approved
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15:03:01 <ivan> Present+ Julie
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15:03:10 <Julie_Morris> Present + Julie_Morris
15:03:12 <ivan> Present+ Paul
15:03:22 <pkra> ... CSSWG was busy last week.
15:03:28 <pbelfanti> Present + Paul_Belfanti
15:03:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:03:56 <pkra> dauwhe: fair amount of discussion about issues of interest to DPUB
15:03:59 <pkra> ... esp. pagination
15:04:10 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:04:11 <laudrain> present Luc
15:04:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:04:20 <ivan> Present+ Chris
15:04:22 <tzviya> present+ Luc
15:04:26 <pkra> ... several results.
15:04:43 <pkra> ... first) missing pieces to get from document to displaying stuff in a viewport / page.
15:04:53 <pkra> ... work has started on new spec to bridge that gap.
15:05:01 <Karen_> present+ Karen
15:05:08 <pkra> ... esp. for multiple streams of contents flowing into different templates
15:05:17 <pkra> ... seems to be missing part of the conceptual model of CSS.
15:05:41 <pkra> ... also a sense from browser vendors that pagination is more an application feature, not platform feature.
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15:06:02 <pkra> ... esp. one specific vendor took this position despite having region etc in their engine.
15:06:16 <pkra> tzviya: popularity contest?
15:06:34 <ivan> present+ Thierry
15:06:40 <ivan> Present+ Nick
15:06:44 <pkra> dauwhe: recurring theme: interests of people who don't work for browsers seem different to those of people at browsers cos
15:06:55 <pkra> ... also related to Houdini features.
15:06:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:07:08 <pbelfanti> And if other platform developers jumped off the George Washington Bridge, would they do that too?
15:07:11 <pkra> ... browser vendors quite different as compared to present non-browser folks.
15:07:16 <pbelfanti> As my mother used to say…
15:07:26 <tzviya> ack Bill
15:07:45 <ivan> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:08:11 <ivan> Present+ Zheng_Xu
15:08:20 <pkra> Bill_Kasdorf: curious re interests from browser vs non-browsers. Maybe some more info? How many non-browser devs etc.
15:08:30 <pkra> ... not really publishers, correct?
15:09:15 <pkra> dauwhe: yes, not many people from publishing sphere
15:09:28 <pkra> ... most non-browser people were representing web developers.
15:10:13 <pkra> ???: agreeing with dauwhe.
15:10:19 <pkra> ... also talked about custom layout.
15:10:23 <ivan> s/???/Alan/
15:10:54 <pkra> ... agreement about spec is sketchy so far and does little for fragmentation, hence pagination
15:11:23 <ivan> q+
15:11:24 <pkra> Chris: Agreement with that. They run into this all over hte place
15:11:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:12:02 <pkra> dauwhe: agreed. Example from Johannes Wilm, mentioning repeatedly how detecting fragmentation would make his work infinitely simpler.
15:12:27 <pkra> Ivan: what's the difference between fragmentation (vs pagination)
15:12:44 <pkra> Chris: other fragments are columns.
15:12:55 <tzviya> present+ Bert
15:13:03 <pkra> dauwhe: fragmentation is splitting up content between container.
15:13:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:13:15 <pkra> ... so more advanced on the "splitting up" part then the container part.
15:13:26 <tzviya> ack bi
15:13:51 <pkra> Bill_Kasdorf: are fragments seen as things that are created dynamically during rendering or inherent in the structure of the document?
15:14:01 <pkra> Chris: the former.
15:14:11 <mgylling> q+
15:14:14 <tzviya> ack mg
15:15:03 <pkra> mgylling: we noted a while back that we didn't even know which part will fix pagination (Houdini, existing modules,s omething else).
15:15:13 <pkra> ... is this more clear? Do we know where to put our efforts?
15:15:28 <pkra> dauwhe: "slightly less fuzzy"
15:16:02 <pkra> ... pagination split between overflow spec and not-yet-started spec descirbed above.
15:16:24 <pkra> ... on the implementation side, we'll be depending on Houdini to give us the tools to do this ourselves.
15:16:42 <pkra> Alan: we talked explicitly about what's in layout and what's done as API
15:17:11 <pkra> ... the layout part will probably solve the first 70%. Then Houdini for the rest.
15:17:22 <pkra> Ivan: where is the cut?
15:17:35 <pkra> Alan: very simple pagination that interacts with the viewport spec.
15:18:15 <pkra> dauwhe: will give us base pagination. But not more complex like side-by-side, footnotes etc.
15:18:19 <pkra> ... probably won't.
15:18:27 <pkra> tzviya: that cuts out all I'm working on ;-)
15:18:53 <pkra> Alan: maybe a sign of the representatives of the group.
15:19:09 <pkra> tzviya: what's the next step? No recognition or too complex?
15:19:31 <pkra> ... do we revise the great documents that dauwhe has worked on.
15:19:36 <astearns> s/representatives/representation/
15:19:45 <pkra> dauwhe: lots of interested people who want to push things forward.
15:20:18 <pkra> ... maybe subgroups should have calls/meetings to work on such items to hash this out far enough to bring it back to the CSSWG.
15:20:41 <ivan> q+
15:20:48 <tzviya> ack ivan
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15:20:59 <pkra> ... that way main group has less noise, and interested people can push things forward.
15:21:52 <pkra> Ivan: coming back to "browser vendors regard pagination as application feature". So their view is this should be done via Houdini?
15:22:19 <pkra> Chris: Basically: just not interested in pagination.
15:23:05 <pkra> ... keep in mind that the JS might pick up on markup.
15:23:19 <NickRuffilo> q+
15:23:30 <pkra> Ivan: so we need to agree on library/common work. How do we create a library?
15:23:42 <pkra> ???: there are already a few people doing this.
15:23:54 <pkra> Ivan: are they just built in deeply into reading systems?
15:24:17 <ivan> s/???/Brady
15:24:17 <pkra> ???: deep, e.g., in Readium.
15:24:33 <ivan> s/???/Brady
15:24:57 <pkra> Alan: some libraries could provide a basis for specialized library.
15:25:12 <pkra> ... e.g., bookjs, FS(?)
15:25:19 <astearns> s/FS/FT/
15:25:46 <tzviya> ack ni
15:26:01 <pkra> Ivan: is it worth doing though?
15:26:19 <pkra> Nick: fully worth showing a proof of concept. But it's already out there in most reading systems.
15:26:33 <ivan> q+
15:26:40 <pkra> ... having a better tool would be great though.
15:26:56 <dauwhe> q+
15:26:57 <pkra> ... reach out to anyone doing open source (Readium etc).
15:27:08 <pkra> ... ask them if they can compartmentalize this.
15:27:20 <tzviya> ack ic
15:27:22 <tzviya> ack iv
15:27:31 <brady_duga> q+
15:28:29 <pkra> Ivan: right. In the future, some of the features might be taken up by the browser, some of them better be done via Houdini. So in that new environment, let's look for a new basis.
15:28:30 <tzviya> ack dau
15:28:43 <pkra> Nick: agreed, reach out to people like Readium.
15:29:17 <tzviya> ack brady
15:29:27 <pkra> dauwhe: we should get Readium folks to talk to implementors to provide feedback on APIs etc.
15:29:30 <astearns> +1
15:29:46 <pkra> brady: +1 to Ivan. We should reach out to implementors such as Readium.
15:30:19 <pkra> ... right now we have implementations but if you ask implementors, you'll find they would like (very much) to have a better solution.
15:30:58 <tzviya> q?
15:31:23 <pkra> ... will reach out to other Googlers on the task force.
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15:32:23 <pkra> Ivan: is this progressing ok? Do we need more?
15:32:34 <pkra> dauwhe: some discussion about exceeding the mandate.
15:32:52 <pkra> ... started to change the document quite a bit.
15:32:57 <ChrisLilley> q+
15:33:02 <tzviya> ack chr
15:33:31 <pkra> Chris: I didn't see it as about mandate but about features mixed together.
15:33:46 <pkra> ... e.g., OpenType MATH tables are not related to any spec.
15:34:15 <tzviya> document under discussion http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-dpub-css-priorities-20150820/
15:34:43 <pkra> dauwhe: agreed. I already updated the document to reflect input.
15:35:00 <pkra> ... e.g., math is such a large topic, it might warrant a separate doc
15:35:03 <ivan> q+
15:35:11 <pkra> who'd have thunk.
15:35:29 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:35:36 <pkra> ... feedback regarding math. Requirements so complex that they need to be addressed  specifically.
15:36:17 <pkra> q+
15:36:35 <pkra> Ivan: should we set up a joint meeting with CSSWG in Sapporo?
15:36:54 <pkra> dauwhe: meeting with very clear, precise agenda would be good.
15:36:59 <ChrisLilley> +1 to a specific agenda rather than general discussion
15:37:34 <pkra> Alan: enabling some of the broader/fuzzier items, it would help if people could go through the schedule and plan dial-in as much as possible.
15:37:36 <HeatherF> q+
15:37:56 <pkra> ... CSSWG could always benefit from more diverse perspective.
15:38:09 <pkra> tzviya: Alan, could you share details?
15:38:14 <HeatherF> q-
15:38:15 <pkra> Alan: will do.
15:39:08 <pkra> tzviya: Would it be helpful to provide more precise examples?
15:39:35 <pkra> Alan: often the need is acknowledged. E.g., footnote is clear but without pagination it's not possible to discus.
15:40:03 <ivan> q?
15:40:06 <tzviya> ack pk
15:40:11 <pkra> tzviya: maybe a little collaboration on how approach the agenda will help.
15:40:49 <tzviya> q?
15:41:01 <pkra> pkra: will bring up the discussion on next MathWG call
15:41:22 <pkra> tzviya: more comments?
15:41:29 <pkra> dauwhe: other topics are interesting for DPUB.
15:41:40 <pkra> ... e.g., the paint API could help a lot.
15:41:45 <ChrisLilley> custom paint is going to fpwd soon
15:42:12 <pkra> ... e.g., CSS borders are not very powerful right now. the API could help a lot.
15:42:33 <pkra> ... similarly acknowledgement for font API (even if implementation not happening soon).
15:42:45 <pkra> (yay on both)
15:43:20 <HeatherF> q+
15:43:25 <pkra> Ivan: not sure how to convince browser vendors that to more seriously consider use cases from this community.
15:43:26 <tzviya> ack heather
15:43:30 <pkra> with pitchforks?
15:44:12 <pkra> Heather: not sure about application vs layout level.
15:44:27 <pkra> ... the browser often is the application.
15:44:40 <Jeff_Xu> q+
15:45:29 <pkra> Alan: people read in browsers. Scrolling is dominant. People read paginated in reading systems. We argue that this is a standard way of reading. Browsers take the view: the web developer should do the heavy lifting.
15:45:40 <tzviya> ack Jeff
15:45:42 <pkra> Heather: so we should go somewhere else to read?
15:45:49 <pkra> Ivan: more: write complex web app.
15:46:11 <pkra> Jeff: problem is also demand from web app vs ebooks is different.
15:46:23 <pkra> ... for ebooks this is strong.
15:46:43 <pkra> ... so the question is the additional layer.
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15:46:51 <pkra> dauwhe: like a plugin?
15:47:31 <astearns> what I was trying to get across that pagination is a recognized need, but that most browsers don't see enough need to justify the implementation/standardization costs
15:47:33 <pkra> Jeff: browser-based application. Like Chrome is an application using Chromium.
15:48:35 <pkra> Ivan: as a user, I should not be forced to import a special tool (plugin etc) to have this facility.
15:48:47 <NickRuffilo> q+
15:48:55 <pkra> dauwhe: also many ebook reading system out there. Part of our mission is to make the more interoperable.
15:49:00 <tzviya> ack nick
15:49:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:50:11 <ivan> q+
15:50:30 <ChrisLilley> I disagree, lots of people make code and let others ride on it
15:50:42 <pkra> Nick: from a business perspective: pagination is something all books need. Pushback: no-one wants to create code that others will benefit from.
15:50:57 <pkra> ... at least business people usually don't want to give their stuff way.
15:50:58 <ChrisLilley> yes, they do it for another reason like growing the market
15:51:15 <brady_duga> q+
15:51:17 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:51:25 <pkra> ... so if we can make pagination a generic feature, to have compatible implementations, will help us drive this forward.
15:51:33 <brady_duga> q-
15:52:22 <pkra> Ivan: have their been usability studies on reading long form (e.g., thousands of pages) is pagination better compared to scrollable reading.
15:52:26 <pkra> ... with real data.
15:53:07 <pkra> ... collecting such studies would help.
15:53:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> it's even true of short document like journal articles, which are overwhelmingly preferred in paginated form (which now means PDFs not HTML are what are overwhelmingly used even when both are available.
15:53:21 <pkra> dauwhe: the market has spoken though. All reading systems do it.
15:54:05 <pkra> tzviya: but is it for real reasons? To turn around: many reading systems have introduced scrolling view
15:54:16 <pkra> Bill_Kasdorf: many studies on journal articles being preferred in PDF
15:54:31 <pkra> tzviya: but is it about pagination or page numbers or other factors?
15:54:34 <pkra> q+
15:54:39 <tzviya> ack pk
15:55:03 <HeatherF> This might be of interest: http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/
15:55:09 <NickRuffilo> not a full "study" but a start: http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/
15:55:13 <NickRuffilo> ahaha
15:55:47 <HeatherF> high-five, Nick!
15:56:03 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/digpubig
15:56:06 <Karen_> +1 charter approved!
15:56:20 <pkra> pkra: caution: remember studyt about negative effects from reading system UIs (voiding pagination).
15:56:49 <pkra> Ivan: charter has been approved.
15:57:13 <pkra> ... administratively people will auto-stay due to rechartering.
15:57:17 <Karen_> q+
15:57:41 <pkra> ... but time for reflection: what's worked, what hasn't, where to focus.
15:57:51 <pkra> ... maybe in Sapporo
15:58:32 <pkra> ... passed with flying colors.
15:58:33 <tzviya> ack karen
15:59:22 <pkra> karen: also growing interest from other regions in the world. Japan, China, Latin America. We can improve onboarding.
15:59:27 <pkra> ... address regional interests.
15:59:49 <NickRuffilo> -1
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15:59:50 <clapierre> -1
15:59:51 <Karen_> -1 7 Sept
15:59:54 <dauwhe> -1
15:59:54 <HeatherF> +1
15:59:54 <tzviya> -1
15:59:59 <mgylling> -1
16:00:25 <pkra> tzviya: no meeting Sept 7.
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16:00:36 <pkra> bye
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16:00:42 <NickRuffilo> thanks!
16:00:48 <dauwhe> thanks pkra for scribing!!
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16:01:57 <tmichel> rrsagent,draft minutes
16:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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20:29:37 <liam> http://monsterjavaguns.com/blog/junglebook-simple-kindle-ebook-cover-analysis/
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21:51:46 <dauwhe> liam: interesting. thanks for the link!
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