18:56:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:56:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/25-aapi-irc
18:56:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:56:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:56:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:56:26 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:56:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:56:27 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2015
18:56:48 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:57:10 <clown> agenda: this
18:57:16 <clown> agenda+ (All) Test cases for ARIA 1.1 mappings.
18:57:22 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup.
18:57:27 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1529: (Joseph, Joanie) Pending review: ATK/AT-SPI mappings of aria-current.
18:57:32 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1667: (Joseph) Update the mappings for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec.
18:57:38 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1692/ACTION-1693: (Joanie, Alex) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-errormessage.
18:57:43 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1696: (Joanie) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts
18:57:50 <clown> agenda+ Bugzilla-28816 (All)  Some ARIA roles lacking explicit a11y API role mappings.
18:57:57 <clown> agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23)
18:58:03 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:59:32 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:01:18 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:01:37 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:02:40 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:04:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:05:22 <joanie> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:35 <joanie> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:06:22 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:06:22 <Zakim> agendum 1. "(All) Test cases for ARIA 1.1 mappings." taken up [from clown]
19:08:01 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:09:24 <joanie> JS: This came up at last Thursday's ARIA meeting.
19:09:32 <joanie> JS: I was asked to bring this topic up here.
19:09:51 <joanie> JS: We need to go through the mapping document and find out what's new, and what's changed since ARIA 1.0.
19:09:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:09:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
19:10:06 <joanie> JS: It probably means changing the existing test cases and adding new test cases.
19:10:22 <joanie> JS: For now it's something we need to think about.
19:10:35 <joanie> JS: I'll do a little bit for test harness introduction.
19:11:27 <joanie> RS: One of the things we need to decide.... Since ARIA 1.1 takes advantage of native host language semantics, e.g. you do not need to put role="row" on a TR, do we need to test this?
19:11:42 <joanie> RS: It seems like we might want to have a joint test suite with Steve.
19:12:07 <joanie> JS: Michael had suggested that for "just ARIA" we could possibly just go with divs and spans.
19:12:33 <joanie> JS: We also had HTML table-related elements to test for role="presentation"
19:12:38 <joanie> JS: A test case looks like:
19:12:40 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=131
19:13:06 <joanie> JS: The URL (above) shows a test case.
19:13:25 <joanie> CS: If we can get webdriver working, we can do automated testing.
19:13:36 <joanie> JS: Even if we do automated testing, we have to set these things up.
19:14:00 <joanie> JS: Looking at the test case at the above URL, you need to have a "testable statement" (reads from example)
19:14:23 <joanie> JS: You also need expected result. This can be for all platforms or on a per-platform basis.
19:14:33 <joanie> JS: Finally, at the bottom, you have a test file.
19:14:48 <joanie> JS: In this case it's an HTML file set up to verify the testable statement.
19:14:59 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:15:02 <joanie> JS: Verification might be automated or done manually.
19:15:12 <joanie> JS: Somewhere that result is recorded as a pass/fail.
19:15:22 <joanie> RS: We're going to have to create all the testable statements.
19:15:39 <joanie> JS: Yes, in some cases we will need to create new ones; in some cases we'll need to find the old/existing ones.
19:15:52 <joanie> RS: Cynthia, are we just going to test UIA?
19:16:18 <joanie> CS: That is my intention.
19:16:32 <joanie> RS: I would like to focus on the platform(s) we want to target.
19:16:52 <joanie> RS: Do we still have the MSAA + UIA Express entries in the table?
19:16:57 <joanie> JS: Yes.
19:17:28 <joanie> JS: We could add a statement that the UIA Express column is deprecated (or something to that effect). Or we could remove that column.
19:17:42 <joanie> RS: I am hoping the browser team will be responsive so we can get quick turn around.
19:18:08 <joanie> CS: It will depend on the timeline.
19:18:22 <joanie> RS: It won't be tomorrow. We have to write the test cases.
19:18:34 <joanie> RS: Some of this you know is already implemented for UIA, correct?
19:18:45 <joanie> CS: Yes, some of it is already implemented.
19:19:12 <joanie> CS: I want to also get automated testing working.
19:19:20 <joanie> RS: That might need to wait for ARIA 2.0, right?
19:19:23 <joanie> CS: It depends.
19:19:28 <joanie> JS: What is the testing timeframe?
19:19:39 <joanie> RS: We're supposed to be done with ARIA 1.1 the middle of next year.
19:19:47 <joanie> JS: So testing starts this fall then?
19:19:49 <joanie> RS: Correct.
19:20:13 <joanie> CS: That timeline is one where I think I can get automation at least somewhat working.
19:20:31 <joanie> RS: I was hoping to get ERT going so they could help us with this. But that isn't happening.
19:21:22 <joanie> RS: So the message for ARIA 1.1 is that we're focusing on Edge; not IE.
19:21:40 <joanie> JS: Please get me a statement please, Cynthia.
19:21:45 <joanie> CS: Give me an action.
19:22:18 <clown> action:  Cynthia to compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of UIA Express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the ARIA 1.0 mapping spec.
19:22:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1706 - Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-09-01].
19:22:40 <clown> action-1706?
19:22:40 <trackbot> action-1706 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2015-09-01 -- OPEN
19:22:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1706
19:23:23 <joanie> JS: I suspect the same thing has to be done with SVG AAM and HTML AAM. Right?
19:23:29 <joanie> RS: Yes, we'll have to do that.
19:23:38 <joanie> RS: And Digital Publishing.
19:23:47 <joanie> JS: DPub is not in the same time frame though, right?
19:23:59 <joanie> RS: Right. Same thing for Graphics.
19:24:27 <joanie> JS: With regards to actually making test cases, someone needs to go through the spec and find out what's changed.
19:24:34 <joanie> JS: Who wants to take that on?
19:24:41 <joanie> RS: Michael?
19:24:47 <joanie> CS: It depends on the timeline.
19:25:00 <joanie> JS: Last time, Michael did the first pass.
19:25:11 <joanie> JS: I remember doing 100+ test files last time.
19:25:27 <joanie> RS: We almost need to do a diff.
19:25:34 <joanie> JS: There's a ChangeLog.
19:25:38 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#changelog
19:25:44 <joanie> CS: And we use github so we can do a diff.
19:25:54 <joanie> CS: I'll take on writing test cases for UIA.
19:26:53 <joanie> (Group discusses specifics of ChangeLogs)
19:27:24 <joanie> RS: This is a good start. It's very high-level, e.g. mappings for switch.
19:27:31 <joanie> RS: Do we have this for ARIA too?
19:27:35 <joanie> JS: Yes.
19:28:12 <joanie> JS: The ARIA 1.0 mapping guide didn't have a UIA column.
19:29:33 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#changelog
19:31:15 <cyns> have to head ot another meeting
19:32:15 <joanie> RS: I'm concerned that the spec may not have all changes we need to test itemized in a ChangeLog.
19:33:27 <joanie> JS: So presumably Joanie will be involved with ATK/AT-SPI2.
19:33:39 <joanie> RS: I can help with MSAA + IA2 stuff.
19:33:48 <joanie> JS: I'll volunteer to review everyone's work.
19:34:06 <joanie> RS: Last time, I wrote or rewrote something like 600 test cases.
19:34:26 <joanie> JS: And we discovered that a number of the grid test cases were not really grids; but mere barebones tests.
19:34:43 <joanie> RS: If we get Michael to do the first pass....
19:35:03 <joanie> JS: And I expect we'll use the same test harness. Or will we use github?
19:35:12 <joanie> RS: What does that mean, "use github"?
19:35:29 <joanie> JS: Add test cases to the github repo (i.e. in a folder in that repo).
19:35:59 <clown> s/in that repo)./in that repo).?/
19:36:57 <joanie> RS: Is that the best way to go do it?
19:38:52 <joanie> JD: The more open, the better.
19:39:09 <joanie> JS: Could we add something to Thursday's agenda to discuss these things with Michael?
19:39:15 <joanie> RS: He's on Geek Week.
19:39:24 <joanie> JS: I'll try to touch base with him.
19:39:29 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:29 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, joanie
19:39:32 <joanie> q?
19:39:40 <joanie> ack rich
19:39:43 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
19:39:49 <clown> action-1547?
19:39:49 <trackbot> action-1547 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Update test test cases involving rowgroup to ensure they are included within a grid container and to ensure that the expected result matches the new mappings -- due 2015-08-19 -- OPEN
19:39:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1547
19:40:06 <joanie> JS: This came due last week.
19:40:22 <joanie> RS: I've not done anything on test cases yet.
19:40:31 <joanie> JS: We're still waiting on a resolution from Apple on this.
19:40:53 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
19:40:54 <joanie> JS: The rest of the platforms have a mapping for this because the rowgroup could get focus and needs to be mapped.
19:41:49 <clown> issue-635?
19:41:49 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
19:41:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
19:42:02 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239#c2
19:42:38 <joanie> JS: His latest comment on the above bug is asking Chris Fleizach.
19:43:20 <joanie> JS: Actually comment 6 seems to be implying that if an author creates an interactive rowgroup, as far as Apple is concerns, it's no longer a table.
19:43:57 <joanie> JS: I think there's something on Thursday's agenda about this, though I might be wrong.
19:44:08 <joanie> JS: Action-1578 is on the agenda.
19:44:11 <joanie> action-1578
19:44:11 <trackbot> action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN
19:44:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578
19:44:27 <joanie> issue-700
19:44:27 <trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
19:44:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
19:44:59 <joanie> RS: I thought we had already discussed this issue here (at this meeting)
19:45:07 <joanie> JS: Correct. The only holdout is Apple.
19:45:18 <joanie> RS: I thought we'd already brought this to the ARIA task force.
19:45:26 <joanie> RS: Who needs to reach out to James on this?
19:45:35 <joanie> JS: I may not be at Thursday's meeting.
19:45:44 <joanie> RS: You could reach out on the list.
19:48:28 <joanie> JD: Looking at the bug's comment #6, we need to find out if such a table should not be mapped as a table for OS X.
19:49:56 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
19:50:30 <joanie> JS: (Reads from above mapping table)
19:53:31 <joanie> RS: Joanie, can you verify what the functional/real mapping is for OS X for table with role="presentation"? I don't think what's in the mapping table accurately reflects what is happening.
19:53:43 <joanie> JD: I'll add it to my list.
19:57:35 <joanie> https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/platform/mac/accessibility/aria-inherits-presentational-expected.txt
20:00:30 <joanie> inhttps://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/accessibility/aria-inherits-presentational.html?rev=169631
20:00:33 <clown> ACTION:  Joseph to edit the AXAPI mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as AXStaticText accessible.
20:00:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1707 - Edit the axapi mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as axstatictext accessible. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-09-01].
20:00:40 <clown> action-1707?
20:00:40 <trackbot> action-1707 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Edit the axapi mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as axstatictext accessible. -- due 2015-09-01 -- OPEN
20:00:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1707
20:08:50 <joanie> JD: Ok, I commented on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239. Let's see what they say.
20:09:47 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:09:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:09:51 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:11:41 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:11:46 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop