14:20:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:20:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-irc
14:20:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:20:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:20:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:20:33 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:20:34 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:20:34 <trackbot> Date: 20 August 2015
14:20:39 <janina> agenda?
14:20:43 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:20:46 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Edits & Additions
14:20:49 <janina> agenda+ Meeting Next Week? -- Janina
14:20:51 <janina> agenda+ Canvas 2D Level 1 Progress -- Rich, Mark, Janina, Paul, PLH
14:20:54 <janina> agenda+ Transcript Support Update -- Chaals
14:20:56 <janina> agenda+ HTML Details & ARIA Describedat -- Rich, Janina [See Below]
14:20:59 <janina> agenda+ Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam
14:21:01 <janina> agenda+ Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al
14:21:04 <janina> agenda+ Web Payments Accessibility Followup
14:21:06 <janina> agenda+ Bug Triage -- Leonie
14:21:09 <janina> agenda+ TF Open Actions  http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track
14:21:11 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
14:21:14 <janina> agenda+ be done
14:21:31 <janina>  zakim, next item
14:21:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
14:53:39 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
14:55:01 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
14:58:17 <janina> present+ Janina
14:58:22 <janina> chair: Janina
14:58:34 <janina> trackbot, who's here?
14:58:34 <trackbot> Sorry, janina, I don't understand 'trackbot, who's here?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
14:58:43 <janina> zakim, who's here?
14:58:43 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
14:58:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, ShaneM, IanPouncey, liam, janina, sivoais, joanie, cabanier, trackbot
14:59:25 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:00:44 <janina> OK, Shane, thanks!
15:00:50 <paulc> present+ paulc
15:01:50 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
15:03:30 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
15:04:00 <Judy> present+ Judy
15:04:07 <IanPouncey> present+ IanPouncey
15:04:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:04:54 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
15:05:04 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
15:05:04 <Zakim> I see 13 items remaining on the agenda:
15:05:05 <Zakim> 1. Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
15:05:05 <Zakim> 2. Agenda Edits & Additions [from janina]
15:05:05 <Zakim> 3. Meeting Next Week? -- Janina [from janina]
15:05:05 <Zakim> 4. Canvas 2D Level 1 Progress -- Rich, Mark, Janina, Paul, PLH [from janina]
15:05:05 <Zakim> 5. Transcript Support Update -- Chaals [from janina]
15:05:06 <Zakim> 6. HTML Details & ARIA Describedat -- Rich, Janina [from See Below via janina]
15:05:06 <Zakim> 7. Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam [from janina]
15:05:08 <Zakim> 8. Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al [from janina]
15:05:08 <Zakim> 9. Web Payments Accessibility Followup [from janina]
15:05:08 <Zakim> 10. Bug Triage -- Leonie [from janina]
15:05:08 <Zakim> 11. TF Open Actions  http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track [from janina]
15:05:09 <Zakim> 12. Other Business [from janina]
15:05:09 <Zakim> 13. be done [from janina]
15:05:21 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 1
15:05:21 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:05:27 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 1
15:05:27 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
15:05:30 <Zakim> I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:30 <Zakim> 2. Agenda Edits & Additions [from janina]
15:05:36 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 2
15:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Agenda Edits & Additions" taken up [from janina]
15:05:52 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:05:52 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, Judy, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, ShaneM, IanPouncey, liam, janina, sivoais, joanie, cabanier, trackbot
15:06:41 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 2
15:06:41 <Zakim> agendum 2, Agenda Edits & Additions, closed
15:06:42 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:42 <Zakim> 3. Meeting Next Week? -- Janina [from janina]
15:06:47 <LJWatson> zakim, take up next item
15:06:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Meeting Next Week? -- Janina" taken up [from janina]
15:07:21 <LJWatson> JS: I won't be available next week. Any objections to skipping for one week?
15:07:39 <LJWatson> JB: It's W3C Geek Week, so less availability from W3C staff too.
15:07:47 <LJWatson> ... Do we have any pressing work?
15:08:00 <LJWatson> JS: We'll cancel the call.
15:08:14 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:08:14 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Canvas 2D Level 1 Progress -- Rich, Mark, Janina, Paul, PLH" taken up [from janina]
15:08:18 <Judy> All: No one responds with any urgent work.
15:08:49 <LJWatson> RS: We have a timeout issue in the testing scripts.
15:09:03 <LJWatson> ... Have reported a couple of bugs to Dominic.
15:09:13 <LJWatson> ... Have updated the bug information as requested by Paul.
15:09:23 <LJWatson> JS: Do we know when PLH is back?
15:09:50 <LJWatson> RS: Also asked Mark s for time to look at the test harness, since he created it. Waiting for a reply.
15:09:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:09:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:10:27 <LJWatson> JB: PLH is back next week.
15:10:43 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:10:43 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Transcript Support Update -- Chaals" taken up [from janina]
15:10:59 <LJWatson> JS: Suspect nothing to add without Chaals.
15:11:12 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 5
15:11:12 <Zakim> agendum 5, Transcript Support Update -- Chaals, closed
15:11:14 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:11:14 <Zakim> 6. HTML Details & ARIA Describedat -- Rich, Janina [from See Below via janina]
15:11:20 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:11:20 <Zakim> agendum 6. "HTML Details & ARIA Describedat -- Rich, Janina" taken up [from See Below]
15:12:05 <LJWatson> JS: There is a desire from the dPub IG to be able to annotate any element in an HTML page (HTML is used in eBooks). @longdesc doesn't quite meet their use cases, but it's close.
15:12:46 <LJWatson> ... The ARIA is doing due dilligence on possible solutions that may not require changes to the ARIA spec. Like <details> for example.
15:13:09 <LJWatson> ... Would be important to add @src to details> for this to work.
15:13:47 <LJWatson> ... Minutes from the ARIA TF call last week are above (in the agenda item).
15:14:17 <LJWatson> RS: We don't really need the @src in <details> because you can put an <iframe> inside <details> and this can take @src.
15:14:29 <janina> q?
15:14:40 <LJWatson> ... We have everything from a plumbing perspective, in <details> and <summary>.
15:14:57 <LJWatson> ... There is a visibility issue, but we'll need input from CSS WG to address that.
15:14:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/634264772981182464?t=1&cn=bWVudGlvbg%3D%3D&sig=4b68c2da98a356db7d67140c6d0c5fb718b3b06a&al=1&refsrc=email&iid=855db08bdcc343068fa1b533db13e2e8&autoactions=1440055481&uid=16903091&nid=4+1489
15:15:28 <LJWatson> ... MS has said they don't like the UI (taken from the tweet linked above).
15:15:39 <LJWatson> PC: Who were you talking to at MS?
15:16:06 <LJWatson> RS: Rob Sinclair. We have a follow up meeting next week - but these meetings go beyond the <details> and <summary> conversation.
15:16:22 <LJWatson> PC: Suggest that conversation continues.
15:16:29 <LJWatson> rresgent, make minutes
15:16:36 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:17:28 <LJWatson> RS: Mozilla is just a matter of back/forth about how to implement this solution.
15:18:00 <LJWatson> ... Posted the bug to the ARIA TF a while ago. Can't find the link right now.
15:18:01 <Judy> q+
15:18:09 <janina> ack j
15:18:18 <LJWatson> JB: Is this something where direct discussion might keep us from an "incident loop"?
15:19:08 <LJWatson> ... Based on the TF call it seems that details/summary was well received, but if it isn't liked by other implementors...
15:19:27 <LJWatson> RS: I need to identify the reason why other implementors haven't implemented it yet.
15:19:30 <Judy> q+
15:19:42 <LJWatson> ... We have two implementations of details/summary, but that isn't enough for this.
15:20:08 <LJWatson> JB: We have already invested massive amounts of time on @describedat only to find serious objections from one particular implementor.
15:20:29 <LJWatson> RS: One thing @describedat does not do is make itself available to all users.
15:20:37 <LJWatson> +1 to Rich on availability to all users.
15:21:00 <janina> q+ to talk about hidden vs visible details, html history vs dpub req
15:21:06 <LJWatson> RS: If we discover details/summary isn't viable, we may have to go back to @describedat though.
15:21:07 <Judy> ack ju
15:21:26 <LJWatson> ... I want to ehaust other possibilities if I can first though.
15:22:04 <janina> ack j
15:22:04 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to talk about hidden vs visible details, html history vs dpub req
15:22:06 <Judy> s/ehaust/exhaust/
15:22:25 <LJWatson> JS: Trying to recall the history behind the visibility of details/summary.
15:22:46 <LJWatson> ... Recalling the table summary discussion.
15:23:07 <LJWatson> ... One complaint against table summary was that it was hidden to all except certain AT users.
15:23:45 <LJWatson> ... When talking to dPub, there was a requirement for the mechanism to be hidden from view by default.
15:24:12 <LJWatson> ... So now we're looking at a media query that would intentionally keep something hidden by default.
15:24:15 <Judy> q+
15:25:03 <LJWatson> RS: <details> is an HTML element that represents a common pattern - a button that opens/closes content. If it isn't visible, how do you know it can be clicked on?
15:25:40 <LJWatson> JB: Discussion a couple of years ago, about the auxilliary benefits for people with disabilities other than sight related.
15:26:25 <LJWatson> ... There was support for the ability to make such things visible.
15:26:54 <LJWatson> ... The need for content to be available to everyone comes up against the requirement of discoverability.
15:27:20 <LJWatson> ... If you find a details/summary widget, how do you know it contains a description?
15:27:53 <Judy> scribe: Judy
15:28:15 <Judy> Leonie: Isn't that what hte summary element would do, would in partnership with details
15:28:23 <Judy> ...to let you know that's the info that's there
15:28:43 <LJWatson> RS: The publishers would have to put something in the book to indicate more information was available.
15:28:59 <Judy> scribe: LJWatson
15:29:32 <LJWatson> ... It almost has to be under author control. This was another issue with @describedat - dPub didn't want the UA to be responsible, especially not through plugins.
15:30:06 <LJWatson> ... So we could use a CSS media query to render the details/summary widget visible (or not).
15:30:39 <LJWatson> ... Apple suggested the possibility of an OS level setting that could be turned on, to say "I want additional information to be visible when it's available".
15:30:46 <LJWatson> ... So it's under user control.
15:31:28 <LJWatson> JB: That's more for the developer to implement?
15:31:33 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
15:31:41 <LJWatson> JS: We'll need good authoring support.
15:31:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:32:20 <LJWatson> JS: We're also looking at using ARIA roles to help with disambiguation.
15:32:43 <LJWatson> RS: Yes, but we really need to move fast on details/summary to hit the ARIA 1.1 schedule.
15:33:33 <LJWatson> JS: A resolution people can live would be good.
15:33:39 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:33:39 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:33:44 <janina> q?
15:33:49 <Judy> ack Ju
15:33:50 <janina> ack ju
15:33:52 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:33:52 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam" taken up [from janina]
15:34:23 <LJWatson> JS: No update without Liam or Shane. Scheduled for next week though.
15:34:34 <LJWatson> zakim, close this item
15:34:34 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
15:34:35 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:34:35 <Zakim> 8. Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al [from janina]
15:34:41 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:34:41 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al" taken up [from janina]
15:34:51 <LJWatson> LW: Nothing to report
15:35:01 <LJWatson> zakim, close this item
15:35:01 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
15:35:02 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:35:02 <Zakim> 9. Web Payments Accessibility Followup [from janina]
15:35:07 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:35:07 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Web Payments Accessibility Followup" taken up [from janina]
15:35:40 <LJWatson> JS: The Web Payments people asked us to review their proposed charter.
15:37:26 <Judy> scribe: Judy
15:37:34 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html
15:37:49 <Judy> Leonie: there was mention of the benefits of avoiding market fragmentation
15:37:55 <Judy> ...accessibility could be added to that list
15:38:15 <Judy> ...we could change that to "...accessible user experiences"
15:38:48 <Judy> ...and in section 3.2 optional deliverables, recommended (car?) payments @@
15:39:14 <Judy> ...could mention digital debit pool accessible to users
15:39:28 <Judy> [these are in the LJW's email]
15:39:34 <Judy> scribe: LJWatson
15:39:50 <LJWatson> JS: Think those are nice suggestions.
15:40:08 <LJWatson> JB: Who'll send them over to WG?
15:40:28 <LJWatson> JS: I can bundle them up and send them over.
15:40:38 <LJWatson> LW: Think the AC charter review ends in the next week or so.
15:41:08 <LJWatson> JS: We also need to think about user requirements.
15:41:20 <LJWatson> zakim, close item
15:41:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', LJWatson
15:41:25 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:41:25 <Zakim> agendum 10. "Bug Triage -- Leonie" taken up [from janina]
15:41:32 <LJWatson> LW: Nothing to report.
15:41:37 <LJWatson> zakim, close this item
15:41:37 <Zakim> agendum 10 closed
15:41:38 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:41:38 <Zakim> 11. TF Open Actions  http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track [from janina]
15:41:42 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:41:42 <Zakim> agendum 11. "TF Open Actions  http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track" taken up [from janina]
15:42:46 <LJWatson> JS: Can someone open the actions?
15:42:49 <LJWatson> LW: As I recall the people with open actions are not on the call.
15:43:34 <LJWatson> PC: 9 open actions.
15:43:47 <LJWatson> ... They're all on Cynthia, John F, Chaals and Steve F.
15:44:46 <LJWatson> ... Several are overdue or will be by the time of our next meeting in September.
15:45:04 <LJWatson> zakim, close item
15:45:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', LJWatson
15:45:06 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:45:06 <Zakim> agendum 12. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:45:25 <LJWatson> zakim, close item
15:45:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', LJWatson
15:45:31 <LJWatson> zakim, close this item
15:45:31 <Zakim> agendum 12 closed
15:45:32 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:45:32 <Zakim> 13. be done [from janina]
15:45:38 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:45:39 <Zakim> agendum 13. "be done" taken up [from janina]
15:45:55 <LJWatson> JS: No meeting next week.
15:46:00 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:47:06 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:47:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:09:52 <LJWatson> LJWatson has left #html-a11y
17:15:05 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y