18:56:10 RRSAgent has joined #aapi 18:56:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/18-aapi-irc 18:56:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:56:12 Zakim has joined #aapi 18:56:14 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 18:56:14 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 18:56:15 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 18:56:15 Date: 18 August 2015 18:56:40 chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer 18:56:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/18-aapi-minutes.html clown 18:58:21 agenda: this 18:58:27 agenda+ Any thoughts/updates in the past two weeks? 18:58:35 agenda+ ACTION-1526: (All) Propose practices for fallback role of text in authoring guide [Wrong product assignment]. 18:58:41 agenda+ ACTION-1529: (Joseph, Joanie) Pending review: ATK/AT-SPI mappings of aria-current. 18:58:47 agenda+ ACTION-1528: (Alex) Bolter to investigate the proper IA2 mappings for aria-current. 18:58:55 agenda+ ACTION-1531: (Alex) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text". 18:59:07 agenda+ ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. 18:59:26 agenda+ ACTION-1662: (Joseph) Edit pending: IA2 mapping for aria-roledescription. 18:59:46 agenda+ ACTION-1667: (Joseph) Update the mappings for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. 18:59:55 agenda+ ACTION-1692/ACTION-1693: (Joanie, Alex) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-errormessage. 19:00:01 agenda+ ACTION-1696: (Joanie) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts 19:00:07 agenda+ Bugzilla-28816 (All) Some ARIA roles lacking explicit a11y API role mappings. 19:00:12 agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23) 19:00:16 agenda+ be done. 19:00:23 zakim, agenda? 19:00:23 I see 13 items remaining on the agenda: 19:00:24 1. Any thoughts/updates in the past two weeks? [from clown] 19:00:24 2. ACTION-1526: (All) Propose practices for fallback role of text in authoring guide [Wrong product assignment]. [from clown] 19:00:24 3. ACTION-1529: (Joseph, Joanie) Pending review: ATK/AT-SPI mappings of aria-current. [from clown] 19:00:25 4. ACTION-1528: (Alex) Bolter to investigate the proper IA2 mappings for aria-current. [from clown] 19:00:26 5. ACTION-1531: (Alex) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text". [from clown] 19:00:26 6. ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. [from clown] 19:00:26 7. ACTION-1662: (Joseph) Edit pending: IA2 mapping for aria-roledescription. [from clown] 19:00:29 8. ACTION-1667: (Joseph) Update the mappings for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. [from clown] 19:00:29 9. ACTION-1692/ACTION-1693: (Joanie, Alex) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-errormessage. [from clown] 19:00:29 10. ACTION-1696: (Joanie) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts [from clown] 19:00:29 11. Bugzilla-28816 (All) Some ARIA roles lacking explicit a11y API role mappings. [from clown] 19:00:32 12. Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23) [from clown] 19:00:32 13. be done. [from clown] 19:01:21 yes 19:01:24 looking for the number 19:01:26 one sec 19:01:58 no webex meeting number 19:02:02 we should put thm in the title 19:02:09 s/title/topic/ 19:02:24 no 19:02:27 one sec 19:04:20 bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi 19:04:41 clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 19:04:53 present+ Bryan_Garaventa 19:05:16 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 19:05:57 regrets+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly 19:06:02 scribe: joanie 19:06:02 present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer 19:06:32 Topic: Mapping of aria-checked on UIA and UIA Express 19:06:50 BG: This is on radio buttons 19:06:53 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaCheckedTrue 19:07:23 JS: MSAA and UIA Express use the selected item pattern and set selected on the radio buttons; not checked. 19:07:37 JS: Cynthia told me years ago that this is how it works and I accepted it. 19:07:50 BG: But that's now how it works on Windows. There is no selected state. 19:08:09 JS: Ok, then I'd raise an issue against the mapping spec and possibly create an action for Cynthia to confirm this. 19:08:23 JS: At the moment I have no way to check this. 19:08:57 BG: I am looking at Windows 7. I don't know if Windows 8 or 10 has changed. 19:09:08 JS: In pure UIA it uses the toggle pattern. 19:09:20 JS: It's only MSAA and UIA Express that uses the selection pattern. 19:09:31 JS: So you have to be sure you're looking at the right one. 19:10:51 JD: And this is definitely not the AT just reporting "checked" for selected? 19:10:56 for the minutes, here is the start of the email thread where bryan raised this issue: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0008.html 19:11:00 BG: No. 19:11:21 BG: Firefox matches what I'm seeing in Windows. 19:11:33 BG: But in IE, it's using the selected state rather than the checked state. 19:11:52 BG: As a result, screen readers are saying it's not checked (even though it is). And it's saying selected. 19:12:05 JS: I can try to duplicate this with the inspector. 19:12:30 JS: But you can either carry on the discussion on the public mailing list with Cynthia, or raise an issue against the mapping spec so we can discuss it here. 19:12:54 BG: I tried to continue the discussion, but Cynthia is on vacation. 19:13:14 Conclusion: We can wait until Cynthia gets back. 19:13:24 Zakim, take up item 1 19:13:24 agendum 1. "Any thoughts/updates in the past two weeks?" taken up [from clown] 19:13:42 JS: I've been away for two weeks. I don't know if you met, looked at your action items, etc. 19:13:46 BG: No 19:13:48 JD: No 19:14:18 JS: I did skim the DPub stuff on aria-describedat. 19:14:36 JS: And it looks like James Craig and Rich might be leaning towards details. 19:15:19 s/towards details./towards details-summary HTML5.1 elements./ 19:15:47 JS: I see it on the Thursday agenda. 19:15:50 Zakim, next item 19:15:50 agendum 2. "ACTION-1526: (All) Propose practices for fallback role of text in authoring guide [Wrong product assignment]." taken up [from clown] 19:15:57 action-1526? 19:15:58 action-1526 -- Matthew King to Propose practices for fallback role of text in authoring guide -- due 2014-11-17 -- OPEN 19:15:58 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1526 19:16:16 JS: For this meeting, I went through the actions list looking for things that was overdue and came across the above. 19:16:32 JS: Why is this (action-1526) in the mapping spec? It's best practices. 19:16:40 issue-435? 19:16:40 issue-435 -- Consider role="text" to expose elements (and contents) as static text node -- open 19:16:40 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435 19:16:46 JS: Oh, it's the associated issue (issue-435). 19:17:03 JS: The product for that is implementation spec, but it shouldn't be. Right? 19:17:25 JS: I'm going to force action-1526 to be part of the authoring guide. Any objections? 19:17:41 BG: I haven't heard from Matt recently. 19:19:18 JS: I've changed the product for action-1526 to the authoring guide. 19:19:34 Zakim, next item 19:19:34 agendum 3. "ACTION-1529: (Joseph, Joanie) Pending review: ATK/AT-SPI mappings of aria-current." taken up [from clown] 19:19:38 action-1529? 19:19:38 action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW 19:19:38 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529 19:19:52 JS: I did the edits for aria-current and I just want to confirm that it's right. 19:19:59 https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/de39ed3cdf37d6d7d3c701afc089cddf842cfd05 19:25:31 JD: Mapping it to ATK/AT-SPI2_STATE_ACTIVE looks good. I'm not sure about the object attribute name. 19:25:53 JD: Alex might also object to the object attribute name. 19:26:07 JS: And in IA2, STATE_ACTIVE means something else I think. 19:26:14 JS: Like active descendant. 19:26:40 JD: Were I you, I'd ask on the ia2 mailing list as Alex, and James Teh, and I, and others might have some things to discuss. 19:27:19 JS: If you scroll down to the bottom of the commit, you'll see I've also added the event for ATK. 19:28:51 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_events_state-change#event-aria-current 19:32:36 JD: In ATK/AT-SPI2, it's object:state-changed:active; not object:state-changed:current. We don't have a "current" state. 19:34:08 JD: Just out of curiosity, is it really ToggleStateProperty for UIA event? 19:34:16 JS: No. I'll correct that. 19:34:25 JS: It was a copy&paste error. 19:35:08 Zakim, next item 19:35:08 agendum 4. "ACTION-1528: (Alex) Bolter to investigate the proper IA2 mappings for aria-current." taken up [from clown] 19:35:29 JS: I'm going to write Alex and David on the IA2 mailing list to get their opinion. 19:35:33 Zakim, close this item 19:35:33 agendum 4 closed 19:35:34 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 19:35:34 5. ACTION-1531: (Alex) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text". [from clown] 19:35:35 Zakim, next item 19:35:35 agendum 5. "ACTION-1531: (Alex) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text"." taken up [from clown] 19:36:01 JS: I was going to email them this morning. I'll put it off for another week and email Alex and David about the mapping for role="text". 19:36:12 JS: Though I think he already has something implemented. 19:38:37 BG: One use case for the text role: Some people will have image links which have embedded images. What happens in cases like that is the AT (like JAWS) reports multiple links rather than one. 19:38:53 BG: So using the text role would flatten it out. 19:38:59 http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text 19:39:39 "An element whose entire subtree should be exposed to accessibility APIs as plain text." 19:43:01 IA2_ROLE_TEXT_FRAME  19:43:14 JD: Were it me, I'd ask on list before assuming the mapping is IA2_ROLE_TEXT_FRAME. My concern is that James Teh might be surprised if an image or something else which is not text shows up as a "text frame". 19:43:15 "Collection of objects that constitute a logical text entity. " 19:43:48 JD: Regarding the above "text entity", note that the text entity might be a non-caret-navigable image with no string. 19:44:10 JD: So just as a sanity check, I'd be sure James Teh is aware of this and has no issues. 19:44:21 JD: We dealt with this in ATK by mapping to the new "static" role. 19:44:47 JS: If it's not text frame, then what is it? They don't seem to have anything like role static in IA2. 19:45:59 JD: I don't know. But we should ask James Teh. 19:46:03 Zakim, next item. 19:46:03 agendum 6. "ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests." taken up [from clown] 19:46:10 action-1533? 19:46:10 action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-07-23 -- OPEN 19:46:10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533 19:46:26 JD: Let's put this back another couple of months. 19:47:50 JD: This might be obsoleted by something Rich and Cynthia had talked about. 19:48:04 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/WebAccessibilityAPI#Node_interface_extension 19:48:07 JS: Alex is also working on something in this area. See the URL above. 19:48:41 JS: Ok, I'm setting this action to October 23rd. 19:48:43 agenda? 19:48:55 Zakim, next item. 19:48:55 agendum 7. "ACTION-1662: (Joseph) Edit pending: IA2 mapping for aria-roledescription." taken up [from clown] 19:49:07 action-1662? 19:49:07 action-1662 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose IA2 mapping for aria-roledescription -- due 2015-06-30 -- OPEN 19:49:07 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1662 19:49:16 JS: I just did this today. 19:49:29 issue-636? 19:49:29 issue-636 -- Continue discussion of localized role "name" (or custom role "descriptions" on known role types) -- closed 19:49:29 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636 19:49:55 JS: I found issue-636. If you look at the fourth note, James Craig back in 2014 already knew the mappings. 19:50:25 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaRoleDescription 19:50:32 JS: So I took discussions from Alex, stuff from Joanie, and what James said in that note. I put them all together, and the result is at the above URL. 19:50:46 JS: Everything is done by UIA and UIA Express. 19:51:06 s/by/but/ 19:51:39 s/UIA and UIA Express/UIA Express/ 19:52:00 JS: Probably UIA Express will use what UIA has. 19:52:50 JS: (Reads resulting mappings) 19:53:18 JS: I'm inclined to close action-1662. 19:53:56 JS: Also action-1660 (the ATK/AT-SPI mapping), but leave action-1661 open. 19:53:59 JS: Objections? 19:54:02 (None) 19:54:48 Zakim, next item 19:54:48 agendum 8. "ACTION-1667: (Joseph) Update the mappings for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec." taken up [from clown] 19:54:57 action-1667? 19:54:57 action-1667 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Update the mapping spec for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-07-06 -- OPEN 19:54:57 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1667 19:55:09 JS: This came up as due. I read it and had a question. 19:55:26 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region 19:55:33 JS: But I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do. 19:55:59 JS: I do remember that we, in the ARIA spec, rewrote the region role so that it inherits from landmark. So it must have a label. 19:56:18 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-region 19:56:45 JS: If we look at the region role mapping (above), all the mappings are pane/panel related. 19:58:26 JD: In the case of ATK/AT-SPI2, if a region is a landmark, then I would think map it to ROLE_LANDMARK. 19:58:39 JD: And then I guess expose "region" as the xml-roles value. 19:59:00 JS: There is a comment in the action, what happens if there is no label? 19:59:40 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region 19:59:54 JD: If memory serves me, I had forgotten that region had to have a label (i.e. it was not optional). 19:59:58 JS: Confirmed. 20:01:06 JD + JS: So it will never be mapped to ROLE_PANEL; a region is always a ROLE_LANDMARK now. 20:05:44 JD: This might be yet another thing to ask on the IA2 mailing list. 20:05:59 JD: Because IA2 doesn't have a landmark role. 20:07:05 Zakim, part 20:07:05 Zakim has left #aapi 20:07:10 RRSAgent, stop 20:07:48 scribeOptions: -final 20:07:53 RRSAgent, stop