15:51:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:51:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-pf-irc
15:51:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:51:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:51:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:51:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:51:43 <trackbot> Date: 05 August 2015
15:52:43 <janina> agenda?
15:52:49 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
15:52:49 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:52:54 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
15:52:54 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review (Specs) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
15:52:54 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:52:54 <janina> agenda+ Community Groups http://www.w3.org/community/groups/
15:52:56 <janina> agenda+ Rechartering Progress [See Below]
15:52:58 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2013 Update [See Below]
15:53:01 <janina> agenda+ ARIA.Next Items
15:53:03 <janina> agenda+  Other Task Force Updates; COGA; SVG; HTML-A11Y--HTML Reorganization
15:53:06 <janina> agenda+ MAUR Finalization (Redux)
15:53:08 <janina> agenda+ Captcha, Multi-Factor Authentication Note Discussion
15:53:11 <janina> agenda+ Driverless Accessibility User Requirements -- Continued Discussion
15:53:13 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:53:16 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273
15:53:19 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:54:49 <janina>  zakim, next item
15:54:49 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
15:55:07 <janina> present+ janina
15:55:10 <janina> chair: janina
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16:00:13 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya_Siegman
16:01:47 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:01:51 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #pf
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16:04:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:04:58 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea
16:08:38 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC, Cyns, Rich
16:11:33 <janina> scribe: janina
16:12:14 <janina> cs: Noting a Google and Mozilla effort re creating a Web API. Will follow up and try to get them involved with WAPA and IndieUI
16:12:25 <janina> rs: SVG Mapping Guide, hopefully by end of month.
16:14:13 <janina> zakim, take up item 7
16:14:13 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ARIA.Next Items" taken up [from janina]
16:16:42 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
16:20:13 <ShaneM> scribenick: ShaneM
16:20:32 <ShaneM> Discussion of DPub and concerns about A11Y
16:20:50 <ShaneM> tzviya: lots of groups working on A11Y.  A chief concern now.
16:21:15 <ShaneM> ... while things have not been used much in the past, they are being used extensively now.
16:21:19 <ShaneM> ... covered in our note
16:21:52 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: there is a bunch of concern about litigation and learning system publishers are very aware
16:22:19 <ShaneM> janina: There isn't specific requirements for things like describedat or whatever.  The requirement is to be able to make the materials available.
16:22:51 <ShaneM> ... longdesc or describedat are really easy for browsers to implement.  I dont see publishers asking for specific technology, they just need a solution.
16:23:13 <ShaneM> ... longdesc is out there now.  alternatives that are proposed are not necessarily adequate.
16:23:37 <ShaneM> ... so why not just stick with longdesc as it is.  describedat offers one thing that longdesc doesn't - you can annotate on any element
16:23:49 <ShaneM> ... we have not developed extensive use cases for why that is a good feature
16:24:08 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: the initial impetus for describedat came from SVG.
16:24:19 <ShaneM> ... Gerardo Capriel (sp?)
16:24:25 <ShaneM> ... it is in the SVG2 spec at the moment.
16:24:42 <ShaneM> cyns: My goal with describedat was to end the political fight about longdesc.
16:24:54 <ShaneM> janina: and that didn't work unfortunately.
16:25:14 <tzviya> q+
16:25:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:25:53 <janina> ack t
16:26:11 <ShaneM> tzviya: The note that the DPUB IG sent to PF - does it spell out the use cases where longdesc is not sufficient?
16:26:21 <ShaneM> janina: I don't think it does.  It is pretty much about images.
16:26:41 <ShaneM> tzviya: we tried to give some examples where longdesc might not be sufficient - where richer markup is needed.
16:26:45 <ShaneM> janina: I will re-read.
16:27:00 <tzviya>  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/states_and_properties#aria-describedat
16:27:06 <janina> q?
16:27:13 <ShaneM> tzviya: I will work with the group who wrote the note to get some better examples.
16:27:25 <tzviya> wrong link, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0042.html
16:27:39 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: I want to keep the drama to a minimum.  Vote based upon the information that is provided.
16:27:44 <ShaneM> ... do we have enough support from publishers.
16:28:13 <ShaneM> zakim, agenda?
16:28:13 <Zakim> I see 13 items remaining on the agenda:
16:28:14 <Zakim> 1. preview agenda with items from two minutes [from janina]
16:28:14 <Zakim> 2. Actions Review (Specs) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open [from janina]
16:28:14 <Zakim> 3. new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html [from janina]
16:28:15 <Zakim> 4. Community Groups http://www.w3.org/community/groups/ [from janina]
16:28:15 <Zakim> 5. Rechartering Progress [from See Below via janina]
16:28:15 <Zakim> 6. TPAC 2013 Update [from See Below via janina]
16:28:16 <Zakim> 7. ARIA.Next Items [from janina]
16:28:16 <Zakim> 8. Other Task Force Updates; COGA; SVG; HTML-A11Y--HTML Reorganization [from janina]
16:28:16 <Zakim> 9. MAUR Finalization (Redux) [from janina]
16:28:16 <Zakim> 10. Captcha, Multi-Factor Authentication Note Discussion [from janina]
16:28:17 <Zakim> 12. Other Business [from janina]
16:28:17 <Zakim> 13. next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273 [from janina]
16:28:17 <Zakim> 14. be done [from janina]
16:28:55 <ShaneM> janina: judy might want to talk ahead of the task force meeting so that we can ensure that everything is covered.
16:29:01 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: we will need a really good minute taker
16:29:36 <ShaneM> janina: tzviya can go forward with invitations to the meeting.
16:29:57 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: do I need to add anyone else specifically to the list of invitees?
16:30:07 <ShaneM> tzviya: Just copy the dpub group and I will forward
16:30:20 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: I could copy the ePub list.
16:30:29 <ShaneM> tzviya: I will take care of forwarding.
16:31:10 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: ARIA 1.1 issues should be wrapped in the next month or two
16:31:21 <ShaneM> ... after the 13 August meeting we are going to start talking about test harnesses.
16:31:30 <ShaneM> janina: making good progress
16:31:38 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: Joanie is doing a great job as editor.
16:31:53 <ShaneM> zakim, take up item 5
16:31:53 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Rechartering Progress" taken up [from See Below via janina]
16:32:34 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/draft-apa-charter updated draft APA charter
16:33:07 <ShaneM> janina: we have redrafted charters based upon balloting.  Formal objections to both.
16:33:15 <ShaneM> MichaelC: only the APA charters have changes of note
16:33:37 <ShaneM> ... scope section was redundant and confusing - asked to clarify without changing meaning.
16:33:48 <ShaneM> ... restructured within 4 groupings...
16:34:49 <ShaneM> ... avoiding major rewording to about a third go-around with the AC.
16:34:58 <janina> q?
16:35:20 <janina> ack r
16:35:43 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: where are task forces mentioned?
16:35:53 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I don't have a section like that in the APA and ARIA charters
16:36:22 <ShaneM> janina: Task Forces are covered in the communications section
16:37:17 <ShaneM> Ryladog: Do we need to mention additional task forces and other deliverables (e.g., the web payments user accessibility requirements)
16:37:25 <ShaneM> janina: you could reasonably add Web Payments
16:37:32 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I didnt mention it in the charter draft...
16:37:39 <ShaneM> janina: sure - you didn't know about it yet.
16:38:02 <ShaneM> MichaelC: additional things are covered in the "including but not limited to" clause so we shouldn't make substantive changes.
16:38:15 <ShaneM> janina: yes.  dont make changes that will cause a re-review.
16:39:00 <ShaneM> MichaelC: there will be a web page that describes all the deliverables.  That can be expanded as neede.d
16:39:07 <ShaneM> s/neede.d/needed./
16:39:20 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-pf-minutes.html ShaneM
16:40:20 <ShaneM> cyns: a primary microsoft concern is that we produce "how to" and "requirements" documents.
16:40:51 <ShaneM> Ryladog: security group has a sort of checklist document with questions other groups should ask themselves.  Should we do that?
16:40:57 <ShaneM> janina: Is that WTAG?
16:41:12 <ShaneM> MichaelC: That is what WTAG is meant to do.
16:41:21 <ShaneM> cyns: I like the idea of a question format.
16:41:35 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I feel the need for a comprehensive document.  But checklists are important to working groups.
16:41:48 <ShaneM> ... we should have a checklist sooner than later so working groups have something to work with in the near term.
16:41:58 <ShaneM> ... fill in and expand the check list going forward.
16:42:06 <ShaneM> Ryladog: shouldn't PF be writing that?
16:42:14 <ShaneM> janina: yes.  and it is in the charter.
16:42:16 <janina> q?
16:42:49 <ShaneM> cyns: it may not be clear from the charter that we are doing this.
16:42:54 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about names
16:43:03 <ShaneM> MichaelC: Judy likes WTAG
16:43:35 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Wouldn't clarifying trigger a re-review?
16:43:47 <ShaneM> MichaelC: If it is just a clarification then it might not.  Need guidance on that.
16:44:06 <ShaneM> ... i don't know how to clarify things that a) we don't know ourselves, and b) without being massively wordy.
16:44:25 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: The Cognitive stuff seems buried.  There is already a task force.  Why isn't it featured?
16:45:00 <ShaneM> MichaelC: part of it might be that the group is part of the APA, but the deliverables might come out of WCAG and ARIA.
16:45:18 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: but COGA is important to industry.  Cognitive accessibility is the next big thing.
16:45:59 <ShaneM> MichaelC: Document does mention the deliverables and the taskforce.
16:46:44 <ShaneM> ... trying to avoid making substantive changes.
16:46:58 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: I am just wondering of it should be a bullet under the areas of work being done.
16:47:19 <ShaneM> MichaelC: that would be a more substantial change - we can propose it and see what people say.
16:47:47 <ShaneM> janina: I am concerned that featuring one group will cause other groups to come forward and say "why isn't my group featured?"
16:48:05 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: yes but cognitive goes way beyond the 'content'.  It is a very broad topic.
16:48:19 <ShaneM> janina: the charter is just about what we are spending time on and what we expect to publish.
16:48:30 <ShaneM> ... I am not to worried if something doesn't appear here prominently.
16:48:45 <ShaneM> ... we have other ways to promote work as it is developed.
16:49:25 <ShaneM> ShaneM: does anyone actually look at the charter other than us?
16:49:45 <Ryladog> Security and Privacy Questionnaire (fro spececifications) draft document: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy_and_security_questionnaire
16:49:47 <ShaneM> janina: Maybe.  But we need to try to be clear.  I prefer to under promise and over deliver.
16:50:13 <ShaneM> cyns:  would a CAUR be a good thing to do for cognitive?
16:51:18 <ShaneM> MichaelC: the charter allows us to work on cognitive and thats all we need.
16:51:34 <ShaneM> ... the question I was asked is does the reorganization lose any meaning.
16:52:30 <ShaneM> cyns: The AURs aren't really called out and they are valiable.
16:52:46 <ShaneM> MichaelC: at the time this was written we didnt have the other AURs on our radar.
16:53:05 <ShaneM> cyns: maybe we could say "develop additional accessibility user guides / requirements"
16:53:07 <Ryladog> Self-Review Questionnaire: Security and Privacy: https://w3ctag.github.io/security-questionnaire/
16:53:19 <ShaneM> MichaelC: Maybe.  see if it clarifies and doesnt trigger a new review
16:54:28 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I don't know what edits might trigger a new review.
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16:57:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> ?
16:57:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:57:59 <ShaneM> MichaelC: changes to work style are documented on the new web site.
16:58:02 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
16:58:02 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about names
16:58:28 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/decision-policy Proposed Decision Policy for APA
16:58:30 <ShaneM> ... PF has been operating under an informal decision policy.
16:59:05 <ShaneM> janina: thats only because we never wrote it up.  But we have a 48 hour policy etc. and kept that in the charter.  It is basically our current practice.
17:01:47 <ShaneM> janina: email archives are important.  we do lots of things to help find things in our email.  structuring subjects is a key tool
17:02:34 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I have been writing a tool that sees minutes and updates the links to minutes on a page.  An update to this will look for resolutions and capture those as well.
17:03:24 <ShaneM> cyns: there are people who really want us to use github for discussions
17:03:50 <ShaneM> MichaelC: we are attempting to accommodate everyone's desires.  But just as we can't do only e-mail, we can't do only github
17:04:01 <ShaneM> cyns: the use case to think about is how to link all of them.
17:04:20 <ShaneM> janina: on going project.  A 'bias' is just that.  Any time you have one it is going to a problem for someone else.
17:05:11 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-pf-minutes.html ShaneM
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