16:29:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:29:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-irc
16:29:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:29:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:29:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:29:11 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:29:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:29:12 <trackbot> Date: 30 July 2015
16:29:13 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
16:31:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
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16:31:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:31:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:31:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:31:36 <janina> present+ janina
16:31:50 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
16:32:06 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:32:12 <MichaelC> present+ Rich, MichaelC
16:33:01 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:26 <MichaelC> present+ Michiel
16:33:44 <MichaelC> present+ Jemma
16:33:46 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:50 <MichielBijl> present- Michiel
16:33:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
16:34:42 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #aria
16:34:57 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:37:18 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
16:37:51 <MichielBijl> Jemma: I work for UI, my first time here
16:38:03 <MichielBijl> Jemma: I work with John
16:38:14 <MichaelC> s/John/Jon/
16:40:28 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
16:41:43 <MichielBijl> MichaelC: received comments that ARIA should not focus on accessibility API's; just API's in general
16:42:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:43:08 <MichielBijl> MichaelC: drafting a response to Charles
16:43:36 <MichaelC> present+ JamesN
16:44:16 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan
16:44:18 <MichielBijl> present+ jongund
16:44:23 <MichaelC> present+ Markus
16:44:37 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:44:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:45:03 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:45:38 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:50 <MichielBijl> present- Bryan
16:47:17 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0049.html
16:47:36 <MichielBijl> janina: ask DPUb to update document
16:47:46 <MichielBijl> s/DPUb/DPUB
16:48:10 <MichielBijl> topic: Heds Up Items
16:48:20 <MichielBijl> s/Heds/Heads
16:49:01 <MichielBijl> Rich: what I want to ask to group, is be pragmatic about; don't want it to be a emotional discussion
16:50:15 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: Apple had publishers coming in that said they need this
16:50:31 <MichielBijl> janina: we will be very formal about this disposition
16:51:31 <MichielBijl> janina: I would propose adding the document from DPUB if we keep aria-describedat
16:51:36 <mgylling> q+
16:52:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mgylling
16:52:13 <MichielBijl> mgylling: everything you said about publishers showing up on the 13th is true
16:52:19 <MichielBijl> mgylling: we need it
16:52:36 <MichielBijl> mgylling: we don't want to be the ones that potentially stall the aria progress
16:53:31 <MichielBijl> janina: we have talked about that possibility
16:54:01 <MichielBijl> janina: ARIA 1.1 is on schedule
16:54:21 <clown> issue-633?
16:54:21 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
16:54:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
16:54:30 <clown> action-1688?
16:54:30 <trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
16:54:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
16:55:00 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I'm on vacation, so cannot push action forward
16:55:40 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: let me have a look at it
16:56:18 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: I'm gonna put on the 23rd of september
16:56:37 <MichielBijl> issue-397
16:56:37 <trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
16:56:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
16:56:37 <clown> action-1488
16:56:37 <trackbot> action-1488 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 -- due 2015-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:56:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
16:57:37 <MichielBijl> MichaelC: there is note that went privately to richardschwerdtfeger and me
16:58:42 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to forward it to the list
17:01:02 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#aria-setsize
17:02:29 <MichielBijl> Joseph: suffix with a + sign to indicate the setsize is at least that amount
17:03:20 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: where do you map the +?
17:04:46 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: AT's have to handle this too
17:04:59 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: they can't announce percentage of progress
17:05:19 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: for the + syntax, we have to change it from an integer to a string
17:06:08 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: how big of an issue is this? (for API's)
17:06:18 <clown> issue-397?
17:06:18 <trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
17:06:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
17:06:39 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: we can do, no question
17:06:59 <MichielBijl> Joseph: you can put it in the spec, but it's at risk if we can't find mappings
17:07:29 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: the apple platform does not have a object mapping
17:07:44 <MichielBijl> Joseph: James Craig is not against it
17:08:01 <MichielBijl> Joseph: is it mapped to AXValue?
17:08:21 <MichielBijl> Joseph: oh it's AXARIASetSize
17:08:53 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: to me this comes down to an API mapping issue
17:09:31 <MichielBijl> If an unknown set size exceeds a known and meaningful amount, authors may append a plus sign ("+") to the value to communicate the set size is at least that amount. Otherwise, authors should set the value of aria-setsize to -1.
17:09:47 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: are people okay with this?
17:10:34 <MichielBijl> Joseph: Cynthia said the IE team likes the setsize="-1" notation
17:11:58 <MichielBijl> Joseph: that to me means that they don't like the + notation
17:13:11 <MichielBijl> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#progressbar
17:13:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#progressbar
17:13:32 <MichielBijl> If the progressbar is describing the loading progress of a particular region of a page, the author SHOULD use aria-describedby to point to the status, and set the aria-busy attribute to true on the region until it is finished loading
17:15:12 <MichielBijl> jamesn: prefer to say we have at least X
17:16:03 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: does anyone object to setsize="-1"?
17:17:37 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: the resolution is that we will specify an indeterminate by setting setsize to -1
17:17:57 <MichielBijl> RESOLUTION: we will specify an indeterminate by setting setsize to -1
17:19:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: We will not be supporting set sizes 999+ for sizes of at least that size for ARIA 1.1
17:19:57 <MichielBijl> action-1498
17:19:57 <trackbot> action-1498 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2015-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:19:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
17:20:50 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: using the term role on a link will mean that the link role is lost
17:20:51 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#term
17:21:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> [ARIA 1.1] A word or phrase with a corresponding definition. See related definition.
17:21:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> The term role is used to explicitly identify a word or phrase for which a definition has been provided by the author or is expected to be provided by the user.
17:21:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors SHOULD NOT use the term role on interactive elements such as links because doing so could prevent users of assistive technologies from interacting with those elements.
17:22:57 <MichielBijl> Joseph: the problem is, we had a definition role, but no term role
17:23:45 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: we need a link to definition in the second paragraph
17:24:17 <MichielBijl> Joseph: the term is interactive, and if you click it the definition shows
17:25:14 <MichielBijl> janina: I like that clicking the term shows the definition
17:25:56 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: what we're saying is that the definition must immediately follow the term
17:26:00 <MichielBijl> Joseph: it's like dt an dd
17:26:29 <clown> s/dt an dd/dt and dd/
17:26:31 <MichielBijl> Joseph: do we need a definition list role?
17:27:15 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#definition
17:27:44 <MichielBijl> jongund: why not use term and term-item?
17:28:27 <MichielBijl> Joseph: role definition should have a aria-labelledby on it
17:28:40 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: then should it be in a list? You can have it anywhere
17:32:25 <MichielBijl> jongund: could I use an aria-label on the definition?
17:32:50 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: you cannot because you don't have a visual link between the term and the definition
17:33:03 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: the term and the definition don't have to be side by side
17:34:36 <MichielBijl> fesch: what happens when you have multiple definitions pointed to the same term
17:34:55 <MichielBijl> Joseph: that is allowed with dt's and dd's in the HTML spec
17:35:00 <joanie> regrets+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:37:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: we accept Joanie’s text for action 1498 with the caviat that the second paragraph link the definition text with the definition role and that in the definition role the aria-labelledy SHOULD point to an element with a role of “term”
17:39:24 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: mgylling: what about aria-describedBy on the term?
17:39:30 <MichielBijl> Joseph: you could do that
17:39:37 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: the author could screw up
17:39:54 <MichielBijl> mgylling: I wasn't saying we should have both, just wondering
17:41:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Accept Rich’s proposal and jave Joanie make the changes and close out action 1498 and the associated issue
17:41:54 <MichielBijl> action-1657
17:41:54 <trackbot> action-1657 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make aria-level a required attribute for role=“heading” -- due 2015-06-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:41:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1657
17:42:18 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
17:42:41 <MichielBijl> Where it states: "If headings are organized into a logical outline, the aria-level attribute can be used to indicate the nesting level."
17:42:54 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: all we have to do, is make it a required attribute
17:43:13 <MichielBijl> Joseph: it's required in the characteristics table
17:43:54 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
17:44:36 <MichielBijl> A heading for a section of the page.
17:44:36 <MichielBijl> Often, heading elements will be referenced with the aria-labelledby attribute of the section for which they serve as a heading. If headings are organized into a logical outline, the aria-level attribute is used to indicate the nesting level.
17:45:11 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: resolution: accept joanie's trunk
17:45:28 <MichielBijl> s/trunk/text
17:46:18 <MichielBijl> RESOLUTION: accept joanie's text, and close the action and issue
17:46:38 <MichielBijl> issue-736
17:46:38 <trackbot> issue-736 -- aria-label overriding listitem and treeitem content when need to know content is valuable -- open
17:46:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
17:47:53 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: in other words, the content is important
17:48:13 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0097.html
17:48:23 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: how do you think we should approach this one?
17:48:30 <clown> http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/ListItemsWithLabels.html
17:48:38 <MichielBijl> Joseph: I setup a use case, with and without an aria-label
17:49:23 <MichielBijl> Joseph: if you put a label on it, the name is changed, but the content is still available in AI2 and ??
17:49:47 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: by putting an aria-label on it should the content be ignored?
17:49:58 <MichielBijl> Joseph: take a look at my usecase
17:51:26 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: what if the additional content inside the list item is important?
17:51:35 <MichielBijl> Joseph: it's still available
17:51:53 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: but how do users know that they should drill into the list item?
17:52:36 <MichielBijl> bgaraventa1979: we have the same problem with aria grid, if you have a grid cell with a list with 200+ items; you don't want all that information to be announced
17:52:58 <MichielBijl> bgaraventa1979: there is no limit to how much content you can stuff into a list item
17:54:01 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: would you want to know if the content inside has additional value?
17:54:52 <MichielBijl> Joseph: if you don't put the label on, the name is taken from the content
17:54:54 <MichielBijl> jamesn: that is in the spec
17:55:14 <MichielBijl> jamesn: if it's the same content, it's an author error; not our problem, right?
17:55:32 <MichielBijl> bgaraventa1979: if you put aria-label on it, AT hides the content
17:55:40 <MichielBijl> jamesn: that is how it's supposed to be
17:57:06 <MichielBijl> Joseph: the AT hides the content, it's available in the a11y API's
17:57:41 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: I'd like people to think about this for a week
17:58:34 <MichielBijl> jamesn: a tweet is a good example, you want the author and tweet text to be announced at the list item level; you don't want the reply, etc buttons announced
17:58:47 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: let's take this up next week
17:59:07 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:03:21 <MichielBijl> Still says -DRAFT-
18:05:13 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
18:05:28 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:27:11 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop