IRC log of dpub on 2015-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:49:43 [tzviya]
RRSagent, this is #DPUB
14:49:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is #DPUB', tzviya. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:50:44 [tzviya]
Meeting: DPUB IG
14:53:34 [mgylling]
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14:57:42 [mgylling]
trackbot, start telecon
14:57:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
14:57:46 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:57:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:57:47 [trackbot]
Date: 27 July 2015
14:58:20 [mgylling]
regrets: Ivan, Thierry, Chris, Brady, Dave, Laura, Nick, Luc, Phil, Michael, Vladimir, Zheng
14:58:33 [clapierre]
present +clapierre
15:00:14 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:00:17 [TimCole]
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15:00:46 [pkra]
+present Peter Krautzberger
15:00:56 [mgylling]
scribenick mgylling
15:00:57 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya_Siegman
15:01:00 [dkaplan3]
present+ Deborah_Kaplan
15:01:02 [tzviya]
chair: Tzviya
15:01:06 [astearns]
present+ astearns
15:01:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:01:17 [pkra]
present+ Peter Krautzberger
15:01:22 [mgylling]
scribenick: mgylling
15:01:26 [tzviya]
15:01:38 [mgylling]
present+ Markus Gylling
15:01:43 [Julie]
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15:02:19 [pbelfanti]
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15:02:23 [TimCole]
Present+ Tim_Cole
15:03:11 [mgylling]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:11 [Zakim]
sorry, mgylling, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pbelfanti, Julie, pkra, TimCole, Bill_Kasdorf, clapierre, ayla_stein, mgylling, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, Karen_, shepazu, liam, astearns, mihnea_____, iank, rego,
15:03:13 [Zakim]
... dkaplan3, plinss, trackbot
15:03:25 [Bert]
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15:03:26 [Julie]
Present+ Julie_Morris
15:03:37 [mgylling]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mgylling
15:04:06 [mgylling]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:06 [Zakim]
sorry, mgylling, I don't know what conference this is
15:04:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Bert, pbelfanti, Julie, pkra, TimCole, Bill_Kasdorf, clapierre, ayla_stein, mgylling, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, Karen_, shepazu, liam, astearns, mihnea_____, iank,
15:04:07 [Zakim]
... rego, dkaplan3, plinss, trackbot
15:04:14 [mgylling]
zakim, this is dpub
15:04:15 [Zakim]
sorry, mgylling, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:04:40 [tzviya]
15:04:44 [mgylling]
topic: approval of minutes
15:05:01 [mgylling]
tzviya: any comments?
15:05:17 [mgylling]
… minutes approvied
15:05:24 [mgylling]
15:05:42 [tzviya]
15:05:43 [mgylling]
topic: draft of requirements for packaged/portable state
15:06:06 [mgylling]
tzviya: just a draft in google docs for now, I’ll walk through where we are
15:06:46 [mgylling]
… we’ve talked about it being an abstraction, at least in the online mode. In the online mode, scripting and service workers can handle lots of this stuff
15:07:11 [mgylling]
… I’ve divided the document into online and offline state, the only thing unique to offline is portability
15:07:41 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:08:38 [mgylling]
tzviya: it becomes unclear in my mind if this is part of packaging requirements, or if its requirements on the content, e.g. navigation
15:09:22 [clapierre]
15:09:32 [mgylling]
ack Bill_K
15:09:36 [tzviya]
ack bill
15:10:47 [mgylling]
BillK: small comment, strikes me that as we struggle with the global unique identifier, most sectors of publishing industry is struggling with work identifier, it strikes me that from a functional pov, maybe package identifiers are what we need
15:11:25 [mgylling]
tzviya: right, I dont think its this group’s task to solve work identifiers
15:11:37 [TimCole]
15:12:15 [tzviya]
ack cla
15:12:49 [mgylling]
charles: we may have certain pieces optional when going to the offline state, e.g. video may or may not be included
15:13:02 [tzviya]
ack Tim
15:13:41 [mgylling]
Tim: I basically agree with the value and importance of the package identifier, but we also need to keep in mind that items within a package may have preexisting identifiers
15:13:59 [mgylling]
… e.g. DOIs on articles within the package
15:14:27 [mgylling]
BillK: thats exactly what I meant, the components are gonna have all kinds of identifiers, thats fine, what we are after is the package itself
15:14:56 [mgylling]
tzviya: one section in the doc says package within a package, we should add a note there about retaining identifiers
15:15:36 [tzviya]
15:15:41 [mgylling]
15:15:45 [tzviya]
ack mg
15:16:45 [tzviya]
markus: Should be make a clearer distinction between offline and portable?
15:17:04 [pkra]
15:17:24 [tzviya]
...offline may use service workers to create a temporary cache
15:17:56 [tzviya]
...portable is completely network-free
15:18:22 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:18:39 [tzviya]
ack Bill
15:18:53 [pkra]
15:20:47 [tzviya]
tzviya: can't the portable document come from the online version?
15:21:13 [tzviya]
markus: yes, but let's clarify what this document is describing
15:21:30 [mgylling]
15:22:04 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:22:06 [pkra]
raising hand wildly...
15:22:11 [tzviya]
ack pk
15:22:55 [mgylling]
pkra: main difference in the discussion just now seems to be the transferability, being able to take whats in the browser and run with it
15:23:46 [mgylling]
… just a rough idea, somewhat unfortunate discussion on mailing list that I cause by pointing to save as PDF in iOS 9, this is the same use case
15:23:54 [tzviya]
ack bill
15:24:27 [mgylling]
BillK: key concepts that I would associated with the packaged state are persistence and independence of any particular browser or browser cache
15:24:55 [pkra]
15:25:04 [pkra]
15:25:14 [pkra]
15:25:19 [pkra]
15:25:28 [mgylling]
tzviya: I think we all agree, should clarify terminology in the document
15:25:36 [mgylling]
topic: STEM survey update
15:26:29 [mgylling]
pkra: the work has been progressing nicely, we have been processing the comments by hand, 3/4 done
15:26:39 [pkra]
15:26:45 [mgylling]
… that will be an important part of the note we are creating
15:27:05 [mgylling]
… the spreadsheet gives an idea of the slicing and dicing that we can do
15:27:17 [mgylling]
… get a more detailed look and dive into the data a bit more
15:27:31 [mgylling]
… we welcome feedback
15:28:08 [TimCole]
15:28:15 [tzviya]
ack Tim
15:29:10 [mgylling]
TimCole: one thing thats interesting about the survey was how many people wear multiple hats, when you slice the data by subject domain you get many apparent responses
15:29:41 [mgylling]
… the slices are now anonymized… will soon have a graphical update with bar charts
15:30:28 [mgylling]
… a lot of concern with the issues we expected
15:31:29 [mgylling]
pkra: a couple of questions where the data essentially shows that we dodnt get the point across in the question
15:31:36 [mgylling]
15:31:58 [mgylling]
… when people talk browser implementations when we asked about standards, things like that
15:32:28 [mgylling]
topic: math and the role attribute
15:32:31 [tzviya]
15:33:21 [mgylling]
pkra: the basic interest on my end developed when MathJAX had a call with AT vendors, somebody noted that the math role doesnt serve any purpose at the moment, I looked into more detail
15:33:23 [pkra]
15:33:30 [pkra]
15:34:16 [mgylling]
… this is the one from the current workning draft, both of them are very empty when it comes to the math role itself, the main use case is on the math element where it is implicit so its meaningless
15:34:56 [mgylling]
… the problem is that the actual standard that we have, MathML, exists but isnt widely implemented, really sketchy browser support
15:35:28 [mgylling]
… the only two implementations is entirely volunteer driven
15:35:54 [mgylling]
… native support isnt something that seems to be happening, that makes the need for ARIA really necessary
15:36:53 [mgylling]
… there is no polyfill in the modern sense for MathML
15:37:18 [mgylling]
… since there really aren’t any advanced layout polyfills out there
15:37:40 [mgylling]
… what we do have instead is “converters” such as MathJAX
15:38:08 [mgylling]
… in that situation, ARIA roles would fit very well, you should be able to use e.g. SVG and expose the underlying structure
15:38:54 [mgylling]
… so thats basically the problem and I am interested in solving it, limited interest in Math WG
15:39:08 [mgylling]
15:39:13 [tzviya]
ack mg
15:40:06 [mgylling]
markus: are you envisioning an entire vocabulary of math terms?
15:40:10 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:40:18 [mgylling]
pkra: that might be one of the answers, but I don’t know
15:40:46 [mgylling]
… right now a good solution could be to dump mathml source into an aria-mathml element
15:41:48 [mgylling]
… chromevox just exposes the underlying MathML
15:42:00 [mgylling]
… having a vocab might be the right thing
15:42:18 [mgylling]
tzviya: I did mention to PF, Janina had hoped to join
15:42:44 [tzviya]
ack Bill
15:44:02 [mgylling]
pkra: if you wanted to do a polyfill in the modern sense, you could use web components + shadow dom, but you couldnt do this without client-side javascript
15:44:47 [astearns]
I believe another problem is that web components still won't have enough glyph layout capabilities to do better than SVG
15:45:06 [mgylling]
Bill_Kasdorf: I am struggling with the issue, a sense of proportion, what are you targeting here, at one end of the spectrum, the close to meaningless math role, and on the other side, all terms from MathML
15:45:46 [mgylling]
… how could this be done in a sufficiently useful way without duplicating MathML?
15:46:08 [mgylling]
pkra: if we were to duplicate MathML, we could generate HTML that looks like MathML and could behave to AT as MathML
15:46:51 [mgylling]
pkra: the motivation is that we can’t use MathML because browser wont render it, we need a way to put MathML out there
15:47:25 [mgylling]
… a static realization of Math in HTML or SVG
15:47:51 [tzviya]
15:48:00 [mgylling]
… on role value for each MathML element would be total overkill obviously… trying to find what the sweet spot would be
15:49:16 [mgylling]
topic: design survey
15:49:18 [tzviya]
15:50:11 [mgylling]
tzviya: we can look at latinReq to see what our current styles look like
15:50:22 [mgylling]
… no we can’t!
15:50:27 [tzviya]
15:51:00 [mgylling]
… thats what our current styles look like, the survey asks what we like about current styles
15:51:01 [tzviya]
15:52:19 [tzviya]
15:52:20 [Bert]
(Funny, the maximum line length is exactly what I dislike. :-) It requires me to make a user style sheet if I want to see more text at the same time.)
15:52:21 [clapierre]
15:52:31 [tzviya]
ack cla
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15:53:19 [mgylling]
clapierre: noticed there’s the section 4.1.1 where they have these different colored blocks, for me is hard to see, issue with contrast
15:53:20 [pkra]
that's custom to that doc though?
15:53:33 [astearns]
max width is the main thing I do like. I don't want to have to change my browser width to be able to read with proper line lengths :)
15:53:41 [pkra]
15:53:59 [clapierre]
15:54:00 [tzviya]
ack pkra
15:54:27 [mgylling]
pkra: looks like its not part of the styling package, but document-specific
15:54:51 [tzviya]
15:55:20 [clapierre]
good :)
15:56:06 [tzviya]
15:56:08 [mgylling]
topic: charter votes for AC reps
15:56:36 [mgylling]
tzviya: we encourate verybody to vote, we need 20 votes to be renewed, please ask your AC rep, vote ends August 20
15:56:51 [mgylling]
15:57:03 [mgylling]
.. so far we have seen only three votes
15:57:14 [tzviya]
15:57:30 [pbelfanti]
you will have my vote
15:57:36 [mgylling]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mgylling
15:57:37 [pkra]
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