IRC log of sdw on 2015-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:24 [RRSAgent]
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12:58:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:58:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:58:26 [Zakim]
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12:58:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
12:58:28 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:58:29 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:58:29 [trackbot]
Date: 22 July 2015
12:58:34 [kerry]
present+ kerru
12:58:38 [phila]
present+ PhilA
12:58:41 [kerry]
preent+ kerry
12:59:04 [kerry]
present+ kerry
12:59:33 [phila]
Chair: Kerry
12:59:37 [kerry]
chair: kerry
12:59:37 [Frans]
present+ Frans
13:00:03 [kerry]
regrets+ bill roberts
13:00:04 [phila]
phila has changed the topic to: Yay for
13:01:09 [kerry]
regrets + jeremy tandy
13:01:11 [Alejandro_Llaves]
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13:01:23 [joshlieberman]
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13:01:25 [Alejandro_Llaves]
present+ Alejandro_Llaves
13:01:26 [Rachel]
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13:01:29 [kerry]
regrets+ Andrea
13:01:30 [LarsG]
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13:01:30 [SimonCox]
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13:01:42 [SimonCox]
present+ SimonCox
13:02:13 [Rachel]
present+ Rachel
13:02:18 [LarsG]
present+ LarsG
13:02:30 [joshlieberman]
present+ joshlieberman
13:03:44 [phila]
scribe: phila
13:03:59 [phila]
scribenick: phila
13:04:07 [Linda]
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13:04:40 [phila]
13:05:04 [phila]
propsed: Accept last week's minutes
13:05:05 [kerry]
13:05:10 [Linda]
present+ Linda
13:05:13 [phila]
proposed: Accept last week's minutes
13:05:14 [eparsons]
13:05:19 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:05:20 [phila]
+0 wasn't present
13:05:24 [Linda]
+0 wasn't there
13:05:25 [LarsG]
13:05:37 [Frans]
+0 was not there
13:05:37 [phila]
RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes
13:05:43 [SimonCox]
(+1 but I was minuter)
13:05:52 [phila]
usual patent call
13:06:16 [phila]
Topic: UCR Issue 11
13:06:17 [joshlieberman]
+0 wasn't there
13:06:18 [kerry]
topic: use cases isue-11
13:06:19 [phila]
13:06:19 [trackbot]
issue-11 -- Is the provenance requirement in scope? -- pending review
13:06:19 [trackbot]
13:07:24 [phila]
kerry: Points to Frans' summary
13:07:51 [phila]
Frans: It's about provenance req. There's a proposal for rephrasing
13:07:59 [kerry]
13:08:15 [cperey]
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13:08:17 [phila]
... First note has proposal which is...
13:08:43 [phila]
"Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115)
13:09:32 [kerry]
13:09:43 [phila]
PROPOSED: That Issue-11 is resolved by amending the wording to ""Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115)" and that this applies to all deliverables, not just BP
13:10:30 [SimonCox]
There is a significant provenance hook in existing, widely adopted spatial metadata standards. It is optional there, but there are alternatives with more general adoption. THe requirements is to not let these drift too far from each other?
13:10:42 [phila]
kerry: I would say that we just want to be sure that Provenenace *can* be used, cf. required to be used
13:10:57 [kerry]
13:10:59 [phila]
eparsons: I'm happy with that
13:11:18 [joshlieberman]
13:11:32 [phila]
SimonCox: I just typed my comment. AIUI part of my concern is that we have 2 provenance standards, both widely used.
13:11:44 [phila]
SimonCox: My understanding is that these shouldn't drift apart from each other
13:12:08 [kerry]
13:12:10 [phila]
Frans: I think that's what is meant by the requirement. Prov is not something that is unique to spatial, but we should acknowledge that there is existing modelling of prov
13:12:16 [phila]
... in the spatial data world and we want alignment
13:12:31 [kerry]
ack josh
13:12:50 [phila]
joshlieberman: I wanted to address that assertion. There's nothing special about spatial data prov? There is - specifically that spatial data involved info from 2 sources
13:13:04 [phila]
... one ios characteristic of something and then there is the location of that something
13:13:10 [phila]
13:13:43 [phila]
joshlieberman: Different data may come from differnet agents/processes. So we need to make sure that the prov tools can address that and that looks like a special req for spctial data that we should be addressing
13:13:55 [phila]
Frans: So that means you don't agree with the current phrasing
13:14:06 [phila]
joshlieberman: I looked at the issue which says there's nothing special, I think there is
13:14:20 [kerry]
13:14:23 [phila]
... and we need to be aware of that when recommending a method.
13:14:34 [phila]
... So I want to assert that prov is in scope for this WG
13:14:50 [phila]
kerry: I think it's worth making that statement, but I don't think it's in conflict with the proposal
13:15:12 [phila]
kerry: I'm worried by something Simon said about diverging - are we going to try and make sure that PROV-O and 19115 don't diverge
13:15:20 [phila]
kerry: I don't think that's our business
13:15:38 [kerry]
13:15:55 [phila]
SimonCox: I agree that it's not our business to try and fix up other people's standards, but if we're in the business of distilling BPs for SDW then we need to take into acount all the things on the table
13:15:59 [phila]
kerry: OK, yes
13:16:17 [phila]
kerry: More comments? It feels like consensus
13:16:23 [joshlieberman]
Best practices should in all likelihood point at the efforts that are in fact currently looking to align PROV-O and 19115.
13:16:33 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:16:33 [kerry]
13:16:38 [Linda]
13:16:39 [joshlieberman]
13:16:40 [Frans]
13:16:42 [eparsons]
13:16:48 [phila]
RESOLVED: That Issue-11 is resolved by amending the wording to ""Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115)" and that this applies to all deliverables, not just BP
13:16:53 [SimonCox]
+1 Josh - like ISO 19115-2 revision ...
13:17:02 [phila]
kerry: Maybe this is a good time to report on the UCR
13:17:39 [phila]
phila: Just to report that will happen tomorrow
13:18:03 [kerry]
13:18:29 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:18:35 [eparsons]
13:18:36 [kerry]
13:18:37 [phila]
phila: Thanks all concerned, please don't tweet that link yet
13:18:48 [joshlieberman]
+1 to phila's guidance
13:18:51 [phila]
Topic: BP Doc
13:19:14 [phila]
kerry: I was expecting Payam to be here ... none of our BP editors are here today
13:19:25 [phila]
kerry: I can point you to
13:20:04 [phila]
kerry: There's some work going on wrt. the stories
13:20:05 [SimonCox]
(Yahoo recommends =D> =D> =D>)
13:20:10 [phila]
... and consolidation
13:20:16 [eparsons]
13:20:26 [Rachel_]
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13:20:29 [phila]
phila: I think it's this one
13:20:40 [phila]
kerry: There was considerable discussion about narratives
13:20:54 [phila]
... as a data publisher, I need to do X and we need a little story around that
13:21:06 [phila]
... so Jeremy has been trying to push that forward.
13:21:20 [phila]
... WE also wanted to talk about the user perspective
13:21:28 [phila]
13:21:52 [phila]
kerry: We think there might be 7 - 8 stories to include. "As a publisher of SDW I want to..."
13:22:04 [phila]
... think of that as a high level task that enables us to structure the document
13:22:13 [kerry]
13:22:18 [phila]
... so open to the floor to make a suggestion
13:22:27 [eparsons]
13:22:35 [kerry]
ack epa
13:22:36 [Frans]
13:22:38 [phila]
... you might find it easier to begin with I am a producer/consumer...
13:22:53 [phila]
eparsons: I guess mine is tied to the UC that I put in and that's really the issue that Google is concerned with
13:23:14 [phila]
... That is, how can we identify the geospatial content on the Web rather than just crawling HTML.
13:23:35 [phila]
... We can parse the page and work out if it's talking about a location but it's not great.
13:23:53 [phila]
... the other side of that is how can we tag our own content so that our pages can be understood
13:24:12 [phila]
... it's about a methodology for identifying spatial content on the Web.
13:24:20 [phila]
... Ilm not proposing a specific tech method
13:24:28 [phila]
13:24:37 [phila]
eparsons: It's kind of a meta problem in a way
13:24:41 [phila]
kerry: That's what we want
13:25:01 [kerry]
13:25:02 [phila]
kerry: ny comments or should I start asking people specifically?
13:25:06 [kerry]
ack frans
13:25:24 [phila]
Frans: RRSAgent, draft minutres
13:25:27 [phila]
Frans: RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:25:47 [phila]
Frans: Last week I did a presentation about the current state of affarirs about Linked Spatial data on the Web and did some thinking.
13:26:07 [phila]
... It's still hard to do. Just publishing metadata is now more or less possible, especially if you look at the Geo_DCAT AP
13:26:24 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:26:41 [phila]
Frans: One story I'd like to see as a publisher is how you publish metadata about spatial datasets that might be useful to a WMS, WFS etc.
13:26:43 [joshlieberman]
13:27:01 [kerry]
ack josh
13:27:01 [phila]
Frans: The immediate advantage would be that the data would be crawlable and discoverable
13:27:16 [phila]
joshlieberman: I'd like to mention some work being domne at ?? to catalogue WMSs
13:27:35 [phila]
joshlieberman: The biggets problem is having links *to* services that provide spatial data
13:27:58 [Rachel_]
13:28:01 [phila]
... for example, there may be links to map images or features in their Web pages, but going from that to the service is hard/impossible
13:28:15 [phila]
joshlieberman: Decent metadata would help there
13:28:25 [phila]
... that for me is the biggest challenge
13:28:33 [phila]
kerry: is this any differnet to the first story from Ed?
13:28:46 [phila]
eparsons: I would say that it is. It's a subset of my issue
13:29:08 [SimonCox]
Particularly because spatial data comes in an un-enumerable set of resources (with an an un-enumerable URI set)
13:29:09 [phila]
eparsons: We already have an established way using WCS, but the catalogue itself isn't very crawlable
13:29:41 [kerry]
13:29:41 [phila]
joshlieberman: So you, Ed, defined the problem domain. There is definitely fruit at whatever level it may be
13:30:06 [phila]
Frans: I think it's a change of perspective. Ed's story is mostly as a consumer (G as a consumer). My story is more as a producer
13:30:22 [eparsons]
13:30:34 [kerry]
ack ep
13:30:37 [phila]
Frans: It could apply to traditional data services. For e.g. if I wanted to record a stream from my ohone, that's spatial and I may want to publish metadata with that to make it discoverable
13:30:46 [SimonCox]
13:30:58 [phila]
eparsons: This also highlights the differences between different communities. I'm looking at gthe broad mass market
13:31:11 [joshlieberman]
2-way likability leads to crawl-ability
13:31:15 [phila]
... those people are not aware of catalogues etc. and just want a way of tagging
13:31:21 [phila]
... the classic example is a store finder
13:31:31 [joshlieberman]
I meant (of course) linkability. Likability is optional.
13:31:44 [SimonCox]
There are a finite set of stores.
13:31:47 [phila]
... how do they publish that content in a form that is better than a list of addresses? they're not going to use a 19115 catalogue
13:32:24 [phila]
SimonCox: I was trying to tease out the tension between the Josh and Ed cases. My sense is that it's between continuous datasets when any request is a query cf. a set of stores
13:33:04 [phila]
SimonCox: We knnow that Web crawlers are good at following a finite set of links but they're not good at making sense of a DB where an infinite number of queries can be made
13:33:21 [joshlieberman]
+1 Simon - links between a single reference to a spatial datum and larger collections / metadata records / services enhances that and is an important part of evolving OG RESTful service binding
13:33:34 [LarsG]
13:33:42 [phila]
eparsons: I think Simon's right. It's an issue we will need to deal with. Lots of spatial data sits in DBs that crawlers can't get to
13:33:47 [phila]
q+ to talk about LD API
13:34:07 [phila]
joshlieberman: This is usefully a current issue. You have the collection of services, enumerated data...
13:34:32 [phila]
... and then you have the means of getting at them, which is specific queries. How do you get from one to the other. A single map image or feature data
13:34:40 [SimonCox]
Linked data does not play nice with queries
13:34:42 [phila]
... info derived from that to get to the rest of it is the challenge
13:35:21 [kerry]
ack phila
13:35:21 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about LD API
13:35:27 [phila]
joshlieberman: A proposal for WFS is that when you get a response that links to info about how to use the thing it came from
13:35:34 [phila]
... perghaps via HHTP headers
13:35:56 [phila]
13:35:56 [Linda]
13:36:02 [Linda]
13:37:17 [phila]
13:37:25 [phila]
13:37:51 [eparsons]
+1 to that !!!!
13:38:23 [joshlieberman] then leads to more information about the collection, and is space-specific
13:38:24 [phila]
phila: Goes on about URIs as query parameters
13:38:47 [kerry]
13:38:53 [kerry]
13:39:41 [joshlieberman]
LD API is presently SPARQL -specific, but is certainly being used as guidance in OGC efforts to support more links.
13:40:18 [phila]
kerry: LD API isn't a formal standard
13:40:23 [kerry]
13:40:49 [phila]
eparsons: Things like that are all well and good but, again, Starbucks isn't going to set uop a WFS for its stores. It's a spreadsheet
13:40:59 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:41:00 [kerry]
13:41:04 [phila]
kerry: I don't think we've got everything in our use cases from that discussion
13:41:08 [kerry]
ack ale
13:41:12 [Frans]
13:41:31 [phila]
Alejandro_Llaves: One of the problems that was highlighted at the workshop was which kind of coordinate definitions was expected
13:42:10 [phila]
... so we presented there our Map4RDF application where we have to check which spec was the spatial data defined? geoSPARQL? Something else? That was a problem for our work
13:42:32 [phila]
Alejandro_Llaves: So it would be good to know which spec spatial data is following
13:42:52 [phila]
kerry: You want to encode your data in a way that a service will understand how it's been done
13:43:13 [phila]
Alejandro_Llaves: If I develop a map client that shows spatial data, it would be good to know which encoding it follows rather than checking all possibilities
13:43:28 [phila]
phila: (sounds like dcterms:conformsTo to me ;-) )
13:43:29 [kerry]
13:43:41 [kerry]
ack frans
13:44:13 [phila]
Frans: A differnet consumer story. I;m going to Naples in a few weeks. When I go somewhere strange, I want to know about my surroundings, so my basic question is...
13:44:43 [phila]
... you have a need of location-based info. How do you get that? e.g. Find everything releant to me near where I am?
13:44:52 [phila]
... perhaps from a profile
13:44:59 [phila]
kerry: The flip side is how to publish that
13:45:01 [phila]
13:45:02 [kerry]
13:45:09 [kerry]
ack phila
13:46:42 [eparsons]
13:46:54 [kerry]
ack epa
13:47:09 [phila]
phila: Suggests looking at CSV on the Web work for how to publish metadata for tables that adds in location data
13:47:18 [joshlieberman]
Actually, Starbuck has a fairly sophisticated GIS and spatial data services. So maybe not the best example!
13:47:42 [phila]
eparsons: That still sounds like too much. I'm hoping you only have to create a Web page with tags that helps interpretation
13:47:56 [phila]
eparsons: Think village fete, not Starbucks
13:48:22 [phila]
eparsons: Gives more detail. Then if I can crawl it and consume it
13:48:30 [kerry]
13:49:32 [phila]
phila: Suggests tagging with things like is still pretty specialist.
13:49:40 [phila]
eparsons: Yep, but we need to think non-specialist
13:49:46 [phila]
phila: I agree
13:49:49 [Frans]
13:49:55 [phila]
ack Frans
13:50:24 [SimonCox] definitely not DL :-)
13:50:39 [Rachel_]
13:50:49 [phila]
Frans: I think it was interesting that Ed just mentioned, the distinction between publisher and consumer is one, we now also have expert and amateur
13:51:07 [phila]
... that gives us 4 stories for a start, or is it 8?
13:51:09 [kerry]
ack rachel
13:51:28 [phila]
kerry: Not sure all stories will fit into those categories but I like the idea
13:51:57 [Rachel_]
will type instead
13:52:02 [SimonCox]
Cat on keyboard?
13:52:06 [Rachel_]
mic not working obs !
13:52:24 [Rachel_]
lots of use cases regarding publishing scientific data
13:52:53 [Rachel_]
so this could be a common narrative
13:53:04 [SimonCox]
Scientific data often in tables ... see previous discussion
13:53:22 [phila]
phila: Wonders if Rachel is thinking of ISA Tab?
13:53:30 [Rachel_]
done for now!
13:54:01 [joshlieberman]
Another issue (+1 Simon) is moving between links and tables - e.g. finding / following a link and retrieving a table that includes data "like" that linked to for further analysis.
13:54:05 [phila]
kerry: I had a similar story in my head. Thinking of a scientific publisher who isn't necessarily publishing geospatial but want to link to it
13:54:31 [phila]
kerry: I'm going to call a close to this discussion but it's been a useful discussion, thanks
13:54:42 [eparsons]
we can hear !!!
13:54:44 [joshlieberman]
+1 to kerry's voice
13:54:44 [phila]
Topic: Summer
13:54:47 [SimonCox]
yes - you are loud and clear Kerry
13:55:13 [SimonCox]
Numbers down today
13:55:18 [phila]
kerry: Bemoans the shape of the Earth and its tilted axis
13:55:30 [Frans]
I have already had my little vacation
13:56:03 [phila]
... we have warnings of BOP editors being off etc. Should we go into summer shut down? Will there be enough people participating in the coming weeks to start on other deliverables
13:56:07 [SimonCox]
Keep up momentum
13:56:10 [phila]
... Ed and I keen to not stop for the summer
13:56:11 [eparsons]
press on with bp
13:56:17 [Frans]
I liek the idea of continuing.
13:56:22 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:56:24 [eparsons]
but bp only
13:56:26 [Frans]
13:56:40 [phila]
kerry: That's the otehr part of the question, do we stick to BP only?
13:56:45 [phila]
... that seems to be the plan
13:56:51 [Frans]
So pause UCR work?
13:57:04 [phila]
... or are there enough people who will be here to do the other things as well?
13:57:13 [Linda]
+1 to pressing on with bp
13:57:16 [phila]
kerry: No, Frans, we carry on with the UCR of course.
13:57:21 [joshlieberman]
+1 to continuing
13:57:53 [phila]
kerry: OK, we'll carry on with the BPs. Ed and I will do our best to carry on through July/August
13:57:57 [phila]
Topic: TPAC
13:58:19 [joshlieberman]
+1 to BP momentum partly because I think it will stimulate other activities to recognize in the BP.
13:58:22 [phila]
kerry: Please remember to register and let us know on the wiki whether you pkan to come, where you've registered or not
13:58:33 [phila]
... A reminder that we'll spend a day on the BP doc to get it to FPWD
13:58:42 [phila]
... and another day on the other 3 deliverables
13:58:59 [phila]
... we hope to do some work before then on those but that's that's the plan
13:59:12 [phila]
... if you can't come, but can dial in, again, please let us know on the wiki.
13:59:19 [kerry]
13:59:22 [phila]
... remember it's 2 days, Min 26-Tue 27 October
13:59:30 [SimonCox]
Thanks all for good discussion
13:59:32 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:59:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
13:59:35 [eparsons]
thx to phila - super scribe !
13:59:36 [Alejandro_Llaves]
thanks, bye!
13:59:41 [phila]
kerry: Thanks everyine
13:59:43 [joshlieberman]
thanks, bye
13:59:48 [eparsons]
13:59:50 [Linda]
thanks bye!
13:59:51 [LarsG]
13:59:54 [Frans]
have a good day or night!
14:00:08 [joshlieberman]
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14:00:09 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
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