12:58:24 RRSAgent has joined #sdw 12:58:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-sdw-irc 12:58:26 RRSAgent, make logs world 12:58:26 Zakim has joined #sdw 12:58:28 Zakim, this will be SDW 12:58:28 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 12:58:29 Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference 12:58:29 Date: 22 July 2015 12:58:34 present+ kerru 12:58:38 present+ PhilA 12:58:41 preent+ kerry 12:59:04 present+ kerry 12:59:33 Chair: Kerry 12:59:37 chair: kerry 12:59:37 present+ Frans 13:00:03 regrets+ bill roberts 13:00:04 phila has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150722 Yay for http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-sdw-ucr-20150723/ 13:01:09 regrets + jeremy tandy 13:01:11 Alejandro_Llaves has joined #sdw 13:01:23 joshlieberman has joined #sdw 13:01:25 present+ Alejandro_Llaves 13:01:26 Rachel has joined #sdw 13:01:29 regrets+ Andrea 13:01:30 LarsG has joined #sdw 13:01:30 SimonCox has joined #sdw 13:01:42 present+ SimonCox 13:02:13 present+ Rachel 13:02:18 present+ LarsG 13:02:30 present+ joshlieberman 13:03:44 scribe: phila 13:03:59 scribenick: phila 13:04:07 Linda has joined #sdw 13:04:40 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150722 13:05:04 propsed: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2015/07/15-sdw-minutes.html 13:05:05 http://www.w3.org/2015/07/15-sdw-minutes.html 13:05:10 present+ Linda 13:05:13 proposed: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2015/07/15-sdw-minutes.html 13:05:14 +1 13:05:19 +1 13:05:20 +0 wasn't present 13:05:24 +0 wasn't there 13:05:25 +1 13:05:37 +0 was not there 13:05:37 RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2015/07/15-sdw-minutes.html 13:05:43 (+1 but I was minuter) 13:05:52 usual patent call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call 13:06:16 Topic: UCR Issue 11 13:06:17 +0 wasn't there 13:06:18 topic: use cases isue-11 13:06:19 issue-11? 13:06:19 issue-11 -- Is the provenance requirement in scope? -- pending review 13:06:19 http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/11 13:07:24 kerry: Points to Frans' summary 13:07:51 Frans: It's about provenance req. There's a proposal for rephrasing 13:07:59 q? 13:08:15 cperey has joined #sdw 13:08:17 ... First note has proposal which is... 13:08:43 "Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115) 13:09:32 q? 13:09:43 PROPOSED: That Issue-11 is resolved by amending the wording to ""Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115)" and that this applies to all deliverables, not just BP 13:10:30 There is a significant provenance hook in existing, widely adopted spatial metadata standards. It is optional there, but there are alternatives with more general adoption. THe requirements is to not let these drift too far from each other? 13:10:42 kerry: I would say that we just want to be sure that Provenenace *can* be used, cf. required to be used 13:10:57 q? 13:10:59 eparsons: I'm happy with that 13:11:18 q+ 13:11:32 SimonCox: I just typed my comment. AIUI part of my concern is that we have 2 provenance standards, both widely used. 13:11:44 SimonCox: My understanding is that these shouldn't drift apart from each other 13:12:08 q? 13:12:10 Frans: I think that's what is meant by the requirement. Prov is not something that is unique to spatial, but we should acknowledge that there is existing modelling of prov 13:12:16 ... in the spatial data world and we want alignment 13:12:31 ack josh 13:12:50 joshlieberman: I wanted to address that assertion. There's nothing special about spatial data prov? There is - specifically that spatial data involved info from 2 sources 13:13:04 ... one ios characteristic of something and then there is the location of that something 13:13:10 s/ios/is/ 13:13:43 joshlieberman: Different data may come from differnet agents/processes. So we need to make sure that the prov tools can address that and that looks like a special req for spctial data that we should be addressing 13:13:55 Frans: So that means you don't agree with the current phrasing 13:14:06 joshlieberman: I looked at the issue which says there's nothing special, I think there is 13:14:20 q? 13:14:23 ... and we need to be aware of that when recommending a method. 13:14:34 ... So I want to assert that prov is in scope for this WG 13:14:50 kerry: I think it's worth making that statement, but I don't think it's in conflict with the proposal 13:15:12 kerry: I'm worried by something Simon said about diverging - are we going to try and make sure that PROV-O and 19115 don't diverge 13:15:20 kerry: I don't think that's our business 13:15:38 q? 13:15:55 SimonCox: I agree that it's not our business to try and fix up other people's standards, but if we're in the business of distilling BPs for SDW then we need to take into acount all the things on the table 13:15:59 kerry: OK, yes 13:16:17 kerry: More comments? It feels like consensus 13:16:23 Best practices should in all likelihood point at the efforts that are in fact currently looking to align PROV-O and 19115. 13:16:33 +1 13:16:33 +1 13:16:38 +1 13:16:39 +1 13:16:40 +1 13:16:42 +1 13:16:48 RESOLVED: That Issue-11 is resolved by amending the wording to ""Ensure alignment of models or vocabularies for describing provenance that exist in the geospatial and semantic web domains. Examples are the W3C provenance ontology (PROV-O) and the OGC metadata specfication (ISO-19115)" and that this applies to all deliverables, not just BP 13:16:53 +1 Josh - like ISO 19115-2 revision ... 13:17:02 kerry: Maybe this is a good time to report on the UCR 13:17:39 phila: Just to report that http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-sdw-ucr-20150723/ will happen tomorrow 13:18:03 q? 13:18:29 yay! 13:18:35 woohoo 13:18:36 calp,clap 13:18:37 phila: Thanks all concerned, please don't tweet that link yet 13:18:48 +1 to phila's guidance 13:18:51 Topic: BP Doc 13:19:14 kerry: I was expecting Payam to be here ... none of our BP editors are here today 13:19:25 kerry: I can point you to 13:20:04 kerry: There's some work going on wrt. the stories 13:20:05 (Yahoo recommends =D> =D> =D>) 13:20:10 ... and consolidation 13:20:16 https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidation 13:20:26 Rachel_ has joined #sdw 13:20:29 phila: I think it's this one https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidation 13:20:40 kerry: There was considerable discussion about narratives 13:20:54 ... as a data publisher, I need to do X and we need a little story around that 13:21:06 ... so Jeremy has been trying to push that forward. 13:21:20 ... WE also wanted to talk about the user perspective 13:21:28 s/WE/we/ 13:21:52 kerry: We think there might be 7 - 8 stories to include. "As a publisher of SDW I want to..." 13:22:04 ... think of that as a high level task that enables us to structure the document 13:22:13 q? 13:22:18 ... so open to the floor to make a suggestion 13:22:27 q+ 13:22:35 ack epa 13:22:36 q+ 13:22:38 ... you might find it easier to begin with I am a producer/consumer... 13:22:53 eparsons: I guess mine is tied to the UC that I put in and that's really the issue that Google is concerned with 13:23:14 ... That is, how can we identify the geospatial content on the Web rather than just crawling HTML. 13:23:35 ... We can parse the page and work out if it's talking about a location but it's not great. 13:23:53 ... the other side of that is how can we tag our own content so that our pages can be understood 13:24:12 ... it's about a methodology for identifying spatial content on the Web. 13:24:20 ... Ilm not proposing a specific tech method 13:24:28 s/Ilm/I'm/ 13:24:37 eparsons: It's kind of a meta problem in a way 13:24:41 kerry: That's what we want 13:25:01 q? 13:25:02 kerry: ny comments or should I start asking people specifically? 13:25:06 ack frans 13:25:24 Frans: RRSAgent, draft minutres 13:25:27 Frans: RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:25:47 Frans: Last week I did a presentation about the current state of affarirs about Linked Spatial data on the Web and did some thinking. 13:26:07 ... It's still hard to do. Just publishing metadata is now more or less possible, especially if you look at the Geo_DCAT AP 13:26:24 s/affarirs/affairs 13:26:41 Frans: One story I'd like to see as a publisher is how you publish metadata about spatial datasets that might be useful to a WMS, WFS etc. 13:26:43 q+ 13:27:01 ack josh 13:27:01 Frans: The immediate advantage would be that the data would be crawlable and discoverable 13:27:16 joshlieberman: I'd like to mention some work being domne at ?? to catalogue WMSs 13:27:35 joshlieberman: The biggets problem is having links *to* services that provide spatial data 13:27:58 s/biggets/biggest/ 13:28:01 ... for example, there may be links to map images or features in their Web pages, but going from that to the service is hard/impossible 13:28:15 joshlieberman: Decent metadata would help there 13:28:25 ... that for me is the biggest challenge 13:28:33 kerry: is this any differnet to the first story from Ed? 13:28:46 eparsons: I would say that it is. It's a subset of my issue 13:29:08 Particularly because spatial data comes in an un-enumerable set of resources (with an an un-enumerable URI set) 13:29:09 eparsons: We already have an established way using WCS, but the catalogue itself isn't very crawlable 13:29:41 q? 13:29:41 joshlieberman: So you, Ed, defined the problem domain. There is definitely fruit at whatever level it may be 13:30:06 Frans: I think it's a change of perspective. Ed's story is mostly as a consumer (G as a consumer). My story is more as a producer 13:30:22 q+ 13:30:34 ack ep 13:30:37 Frans: It could apply to traditional data services. For e.g. if I wanted to record a stream from my ohone, that's spatial and I may want to publish metadata with that to make it discoverable 13:30:46 Crawlability? 13:30:58 eparsons: This also highlights the differences between different communities. I'm looking at gthe broad mass market 13:31:11 2-way likability leads to crawl-ability 13:31:15 ... those people are not aware of catalogues etc. and just want a way of tagging 13:31:21 ... the classic example is a store finder 13:31:31 I meant (of course) linkability. Likability is optional. 13:31:44 There are a finite set of stores. 13:31:47 ... how do they publish that content in a form that is better than a list of addresses? they're not going to use a 19115 catalogue 13:32:24 SimonCox: I was trying to tease out the tension between the Josh and Ed cases. My sense is that it's between continuous datasets when any request is a query cf. a set of stores 13:33:04 SimonCox: We knnow that Web crawlers are good at following a finite set of links but they're not good at making sense of a DB where an infinite number of queries can be made 13:33:21 +1 Simon - links between a single reference to a spatial datum and larger collections / metadata records / services enhances that and is an important part of evolving OG RESTful service binding 13:33:34 s/knnow/know/ 13:33:42 eparsons: I think Simon's right. It's an issue we will need to deal with. Lots of spatial data sits in DBs that crawlers can't get to 13:33:47 q+ to talk about LD API 13:34:07 joshlieberman: This is usefully a current issue. You have the collection of services, enumerated data... 13:34:32 ... and then you have the means of getting at them, which is specific queries. How do you get from one to the other. A single map image or feature data 13:34:40 Linked data does not play nice with queries 13:34:42 ... info derived from that to get to the rest of it is the challenge 13:35:21 ack phila 13:35:21 phila, you wanted to talk about LD API 13:35:27 joshlieberman: A proposal for WFS is that when you get a response that links to info about how to use the thing it came from 13:35:34 ... perghaps via HHTP headers 13:35:56 phila: http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/ 13:35:56 s/perghaps/perhaps 13:36:02 s/perghaps/perhaps/ 13:37:17 http://example.data.gov/schools/12345 13:37:25 http://example.data.gov/schools/ 13:37:51 +1 to that !!!! 13:38:23 http://example.data.gov/schools/bbox then leads to more information about the collection, and is space-specific 13:38:24 phila: Goes on about URIs as query parameters 13:38:47 ?q 13:38:53 q? 13:39:41 LD API is presently SPARQL -specific, but is certainly being used as guidance in OGC efforts to support more links. 13:40:18 kerry: LD API isn't a formal standard 13:40:23 q? 13:40:49 eparsons: Things like that are all well and good but, again, Starbucks isn't going to set uop a WFS for its stores. It's a spreadsheet 13:40:59 +q 13:41:00 q? 13:41:04 kerry: I don't think we've got everything in our use cases from that discussion 13:41:08 ack ale 13:41:12 q+ 13:41:31 Alejandro_Llaves: One of the problems that was highlighted at the workshop was which kind of coordinate definitions was expected 13:42:10 ... so we presented there our Map4RDF application where we have to check which spec was the spatial data defined? geoSPARQL? Something else? That was a problem for our work 13:42:32 Alejandro_Llaves: So it would be good to know which spec spatial data is following 13:42:52 kerry: You want to encode your data in a way that a service will understand how it's been done 13:43:13 Alejandro_Llaves: If I develop a map client that shows spatial data, it would be good to know which encoding it follows rather than checking all possibilities 13:43:28 phila: (sounds like dcterms:conformsTo to me ;-) ) 13:43:29 q? 13:43:41 ack frans 13:44:13 Frans: A differnet consumer story. I;m going to Naples in a few weeks. When I go somewhere strange, I want to know about my surroundings, so my basic question is... 13:44:43 ... you have a need of location-based info. How do you get that? e.g. Find everything releant to me near where I am? 13:44:52 ... perhaps from a profile 13:44:59 kerry: The flip side is how to publish that 13:45:01 q+ 13:45:02 q? 13:45:09 ack phila 13:46:42 q+ 13:46:54 ack epa 13:47:09 phila: Suggests looking at CSV on the Web work for how to publish metadata for tables that adds in location data 13:47:18 Actually, Starbuck has a fairly sophisticated GIS and spatial data services. So maybe not the best example! 13:47:42 eparsons: That still sounds like too much. I'm hoping you only have to create a Web page with tags that helps interpretation 13:47:56 eparsons: Think village fete, not Starbucks 13:48:22 eparsons: Gives more detail. Then if I can crawl it and consume it 13:48:30 q? 13:49:32 phila: Suggests tagging with things like schema.org is still pretty specialist. 13:49:40 eparsons: Yep, but we need to think non-specialist 13:49:46 phila: I agree 13:49:49 q+ 13:49:55 ack Frans 13:50:24 schema.org definitely not DL :-) 13:50:39 q+ 13:50:49 Frans: I think it was interesting that Ed just mentioned, the distinction between publisher and consumer is one, we now also have expert and amateur 13:51:07 ... that gives us 4 stories for a start, or is it 8? 13:51:09 ack rachel 13:51:28 kerry: Not sure all stories will fit into those categories but I like the idea 13:51:57 will type instead 13:52:02 Cat on keyboard? 13:52:06 mic not working obs ! 13:52:24 lots of use cases regarding publishing scientific data 13:52:53 so this could be a common narrative 13:53:04 Scientific data often in tables ... see previous discussion 13:53:22 phila: Wonders if Rachel is thinking of ISA Tab? 13:53:30 done for now! 13:54:01 Another issue (+1 Simon) is moving between links and tables - e.g. finding / following a link and retrieving a table that includes data "like" that linked to for further analysis. 13:54:05 kerry: I had a similar story in my head. Thinking of a scientific publisher who isn't necessarily publishing geospatial but want to link to it 13:54:31 kerry: I'm going to call a close to this discussion but it's been a useful discussion, thanks 13:54:42 we can hear !!! 13:54:44 +1 to kerry's voice 13:54:44 Topic: Summer 13:54:47 yes - you are loud and clear Kerry 13:55:13 Numbers down today 13:55:18 kerry: Bemoans the shape of the Earth and its tilted axis 13:55:30 I have already had my little vacation 13:56:03 ... we have warnings of BOP editors being off etc. Should we go into summer shut down? Will there be enough people participating in the coming weeks to start on other deliverables 13:56:07 Keep up momentum 13:56:10 ... Ed and I keen to not stop for the summer 13:56:11 press on with bp 13:56:17 I liek the idea of continuing. 13:56:22 +1 13:56:24 but bp only 13:56:26 s/liek/like 13:56:40 kerry: That's the otehr part of the question, do we stick to BP only? 13:56:45 ... that seems to be the plan 13:56:51 So pause UCR work? 13:57:04 ... or are there enough people who will be here to do the other things as well? 13:57:13 +1 to pressing on with bp 13:57:16 kerry: No, Frans, we carry on with the UCR of course. 13:57:21 +1 to continuing 13:57:53 kerry: OK, we'll carry on with the BPs. Ed and I will do our best to carry on through July/August 13:57:57 Topic: TPAC 13:58:19 +1 to BP momentum partly because I think it will stimulate other activities to recognize in the BP. 13:58:22 kerry: Please remember to register and let us know on the wiki whether you pkan to come, where you've registered or not 13:58:33 ... A reminder that we'll spend a day on the BP doc to get it to FPWD 13:58:42 ... and another day on the other 3 deliverables 13:58:59 ... we hope to do some work before then on those but that's that's the plan 13:59:12 ... if you can't come, but can dial in, again, please let us know on the wiki. 13:59:19 q? 13:59:22 ... remember it's 2 days, Min 26-Tue 27 October 13:59:30 Thanks all for good discussion 13:59:32 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:59:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-sdw-minutes.html phila 13:59:35 thx to phila - super scribe ! 13:59:36 thanks, bye! 13:59:41 kerry: Thanks everyine 13:59:43 thanks, bye 13:59:48 bye 13:59:50 thanks bye! 13:59:51 Cheers 13:59:54 have a good day or night! 14:00:08 joshlieberman has left #sdw 14:00:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:00:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-sdw-minutes.html phila 15:27:50 chaals has joined #sdw 16:24:24 Zakim has left #sdw