14:55:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #DPUB
14:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/17-DPUB-irc
14:55:13 <clapierre> zakim, will be DPub_Dpub
14:55:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'will be DPub_Dpub', clapierre
14:55:23 <clapierre> zakim, this is DPub_Dpub
14:55:23 <Zakim> sorry, clapierre, I do not see a conference named 'DPub_Dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:55:37 <clapierre> rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:46 <clapierre> scribe: clapierre
14:56:14 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:00:10 <tzviya> present+ tzviya_siegman
15:00:10 <clapierre> present +Mia
15:00:27 <clapierre> present + clapierre
15:00:30 <pkra> present+ Peter Krautzberger
15:02:28 <pkra> +1 for Pluto.
15:04:01 <clapierre> tzviya, we sent our note to PF for ARIA-describedat
15:05:05 <clapierre> …, Suzan Taylor sent an email back in 2011 and we want to make sure there is no contradictions with what we sent
15:05:28 <clapierre> Deborah, thinks that that it doesn't
15:05:57 <clapierre> tzviya, thinks that maybe describtedat wasn't even mentioned
15:07:33 <clapierre> deborah, no one will say they will use this because no User Agents / Browsers support it.
15:08:33 <clapierre> …, we can push back that the publishers doesn't have to say we will use it until there is UA/Browser support
15:09:39 <clapierre> tzviya, will reach out to Suzan to make sure there is nothing we should be concerned about and we are not contradicting ourselves with that previous email with our new note to PF.
15:10:44 <tzviya> 1. Discuss the ARIA Role attribute ‘math’ with invited guest Peter Krautzberger
15:10:44 <tzviya> 2. Discuss the ARIA-describedat document we presented to PF and ARIA, next steps…
15:10:44 <tzviya> 3. Discuss the continuation of the work for the A11Y DPUB Note
15:10:44 <tzviya> 4. Discuss the changing of the time for this meeting to allow for broader participation.
15:11:41 <clapierre> topic: math and ARIA Role
15:12:44 <pkra> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#math
15:12:59 <clapierre> Peter, current aria spec is not great with respect to math.
15:13:27 <clapierre> …, only a section concerning polyfill.  Can this be changed?
15:13:47 <clapierre> …, more and more tools that will render MathML, SVG, etc…
15:14:02 <clapierre> …, browser venders are not implementing MathML
15:14:42 <clapierre> …, IE / Chrome:Blink not on their radar to implement MathML
15:17:17 <pkra>  MathML?
15:17:22 <clapierre> clapierre, Benetech is writing a Web Based database to determine what is available for a given set of criteria (ie. Windows / Jaws what works with that.
15:18:58 <clapierre> deborah, image renders when MathML is not supported otherwise display the MathML.  But this is currently a problem.
15:19:39 <clapierre> Peter, talked to Sandars, you really have to fall back to binary images without markup.
15:20:54 <clapierre> …, we can produce SVG from the mathML, change for us at MathJax we will have in the next release HTML and CSS instead of SVG for displaying math equations from mathML.
15:21:47 <clapierre> …, math player with IE back in the day was easy you could detect that and switch… much more complicated now.
15:22:05 <clapierre> …, hide mathML in DOM with aria-hidden
15:22:31 <clapierre> …, but this is bad practice because you break the visual with the accessible
15:23:11 <clapierre> …, mathJAX feels this should be overcome… longterm it seems feasible that something can expose the mathML
15:23:45 <clapierre> …, in browser they are not able to style math elements which is a big problem.
15:23:49 <tzviya> q+
15:24:06 <clapierre> ack tzviya
15:24:30 <clapierre> tzviya, next steps:  contact PF and discuss aria-role math will be..
15:24:49 <clapierre> …, aria 1.1 mid august will be finalized
15:24:58 <clapierre> …, aria 2 a year away
15:27:26 <clapierre> peter, AT seems to have good means to us mathML
15:27:56 <clapierre> …, thanks to Benetech and work Peter helped with.
15:28:40 <clapierre> tzviya, Jone Marie suggested more role attributes with mathML in aria-role
15:29:19 <clapierre> tzviya, what would you like to see happen Peter?
15:29:42 <clapierre> peter, have non mathml markup that AT can identify as mathML markup
15:30:49 <clapierre> …, math roles only work on mathML
15:31:25 <clapierre> …, seems like the obvious step would be to expose the different formats (eg. LATex )
15:31:35 <clapierre> …, first step is to expose the mathML
15:32:25 <clapierre> …, we can do hacks but we want something more mainstream
15:33:00 <clapierre> tzviya, the polyfill section does deal with this does it not?
15:33:25 <tzviya> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_role_table
15:33:34 <clapierre> peter, that is just then going to show the alt-text
15:33:54 <clapierre> …, the hack is just to use data attributes
15:34:05 <clapierre> …, maybe that would work but that is not how it should work.
15:34:40 <clapierre> tzviya, link provided on how AT should handle this role for math.
15:36:23 <clapierre> peter, you find a huge # of SPANS of a page rendered from mathML
15:37:01 <clapierre> tzviya, but wouldn't you reproduce the mathML in ARIA?
15:37:27 <clapierre> …, Peter write up a summary of the problem in detail
15:37:50 <clapierre> …, explain on how this works today
15:38:07 <clapierre> …, explain the mapping of the Accessibility Tree sees
15:38:41 <clapierre> …, if you have a solution then propose it, and if you are not sure of the solution then you can ask as well.
15:38:54 <clapierre> peter, ok I will do that.
15:40:03 <clapierre> deborah, we all agree there is a problem
15:40:39 <clapierre> … a 3 sentence problem statement "elevator summary" and even if you don't have a solution… if you do great
15:41:39 <clapierre> tzviya, you can say that reproducing mathML in ARIA works but there must be a better solution to the problem and ask for help.
15:42:17 <clapierre> peter, danger to mathML if there is rendering that is just as good
15:42:28 <clapierre> …, there is really nothing moving forward for mathML
15:49:28 <clapierre> deborah, we should be on the record that Browser manufactures need to implement mathML standard, which will solve our accessibility issues, instead of ask ARIA and others to add new standards to address the inaccessibility of mathML because it isn't being implemented by most browsers.
15:51:05 <clapierre> topic: meeting time
15:51:47 <clapierre> tzviya, someone from Sage publishing wants to join, Theiry wanted to come but the time does not work.
15:52:07 <tzviya> s/Theiry/Thierry
15:52:53 <clapierre> deborah, we don't want to reschedule which will affect the core people.
15:53:06 <clapierre> mia, any earlier would be a problem for me.
15:54:07 <clapierre> tzviya, maybe send a request to DPUB to see who else would be interested and find out why they can't connect currently
15:55:25 <clapierre> …, most people are on vacation during the summer
15:57:07 <clapierre> …, sounds like we should keep this meeting at this time for now
15:58:39 <clapierre> deborah, may have a conflict with a stand-up, but will ask to move that.
16:00:37 <clapierre> charles, will be on vacation first week of August
16:02:13 <clapierre> tzviya, can someone from Benetech join from BookShare to talk about how they foresee using describedAt
16:03:06 <clapierre> charles, yes I will talk to my colleagues and find some representative.  Maybe Anh Bui would be ideal.  Or Robin.
16:04:22 <clapierre> deborah, we have gotten distracted by this aria-describedAt and once that is put to bed we will shift focus to our a11y Note for the W3C
16:04:50 <clapierre> tzviya, remember we are proposing this Note be complete by year end.
16:05:05 <clapierre> charles, yup… sounds good.
16:05:08 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/17-DPUB-minutes.html clapierre
16:07:10 <clapierre> present + dkaplan
16:07:20 <clapierre> rssagent, draft minutes
16:07:48 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/17-DPUB-minutes.html clapierre
16:08:29 <clapierre> rrsagent, bye
16:08:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items