00:06:17 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:06:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-webapps-irc 00:06:35 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 00:07:30 Hello. I'm not on the call because I forgot my laptop today... :-( 00:07:59 But at least I'm here. ^_^ 00:08:26 Hi! 00:09:23 Excellent. 00:09:39 If you want to use a regular phone to dial in: +1-617-324-0000 00:09:59 Code is: 647 802 277 00:10:18 So... agenda? 00:10:32 Testing. Specifically, the doc that you sent out. 00:10:51 I commited the code to web-platform-tests this past week. 00:11:13 I'd also like to have a set of short-term goals. Targetting something around end of September. 00:11:31 Ok. Anything else? 00:11:38 For example, test a few events. Verify in multiple browsers. et al. 00:12:11 My important issue is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21120 00:14:16 OK. So: 00:14:26 1. Goals (short term & testing) 00:14:39 2. Bug 21120 00:14:51 3. Testing framework (Travis) 00:14:56 Anything else? 00:15:54 Alright. Topic #1. 00:15:59 That's probably enough for today. 00:16:24 Gary you mentioned targetting something for end of Sept. 00:16:38 Were you thinking of a re-publication of the spec, or something else? 00:16:57 Getting a new spec published would be rather ambitious. 00:17:12 I was thinking more in terms of tracking progress on the testing front. 00:17:55 Clearly the major effort for us will be on the interactions and order of different events in relation to each other. 00:18:01 It would be nice to start picking off a few bugs as well. E.g., the ones that Masayuki wants prioritized. 00:19:19 Re: event ordering. I didn't see support for ambiguous ordering -- events can occur in either A>B or B>A order. 00:19:48 Do we have situations where we have a sequence of events, but a few of them don't have a strictly defined order? 00:20:18 Something like ABCDE nad ABDCE both being valid. 00:20:36 We may in regards to composition events or key/down up pairs. 00:20:45 I'm not sure if that's needed. We probably won't know until we start digging into the testing. 00:20:55 When you say "support" what do you mean? 00:21:16 I think it sounds like something that could be added later, but I wanted to bring it up. 00:21:56 by support: I mean creating a single test that accepts either ABCDE or ABDCE as correct event order. 00:22:49 That shouldn't be a problem. 00:23:18 The framework I wrote just records what happens, it doesn't prescribe a "right" or "wrong" answer--that logic still needs to be authored by the test author. 00:23:44 In regards to bugs, I counted 9 bugs that are related to key names/processing. 00:23:59 We could set a goal to work through all those 9 bugs by Sept.? 00:24:15 that sounds good. 00:24:36 Sounds good to me too. 00:24:39 I haven't yet updated the spec now that it lives in the new location. 00:25:00 I need to get set up to do that... 00:25:11 I find it a bit easier to work with--you can even update directly through the Github website if you wish :) 00:25:45 Yeah, I'm sure it's not that hard - it's just doing it the first time. 00:26:12 Q: regarding new keys... do we need to add low-level mapping key/code values for any new "key-like" think that exists in all the world? 00:26:26 (e.g., new TVs and remote controls in Asia, etc.?) 00:26:37 It seems like an intractable (and never ending) problem. 00:27:05 We *don't* want to say the people can add whatever codes they want. 00:27:26 The only alternative is to specify all the keys that people would be tempted to add. 00:27:50 We don't have to do them now, but we can play whack-a-mole as they come up. 00:28:09 [edit] We don't have to do them *all* now... 00:28:30 It seems like for some specific scenarios, should it be OK to overload some kind of user-defined key/code values? 00:29:00 Hardware people are coming up with new buttons with new labels and associated control codes all the time. 00:29:28 Is it the responsibility of our spec to define everything that could eventually, maybe, be used in a browser? 00:30:09 It seems like we are going the wrong direction--all these key codes make it _harder_ to author websites that will just work across a variety of platforms... 00:30:34 At least web apps installed into such device need to distinguish what button in remote control is pressed. 00:30:52 Yes, but we don't care about vendor-specific buttons on remotes. But once they're defined in something like Android or iOS, it starts to make sense to think about including them. 00:31:11 I'm assuming that anything defined by (say) Android can occur in an Android browser. 00:31:20 But perhaps that's a mistaken assumption. 00:31:43 Android (the OS) is larger in scope than Chrome right? 00:32:19 Yes. 00:32:20 Hmmm.... 00:32:31 Well, if the OS can generate the key code from some supported hardward, then it probably goes to the browser as-is... 00:32:47 Perhaps I'm just complaining about all the keys and codes that I'll never user. 00:32:55 It's a valid concern. 00:33:17 I'd like to only add keys that can be generated by a virtual keyboard (and thus, can make it into the browser). 00:33:57 Thinking about it now, I'm not sure if all of those keys satisfy that constraint. 00:34:25 Well, let's evaluate the set of 9 bugs we have on the subject, and see if we can get resolutions in the bugs for what we want and don't. It doesn't make sense to speculate here. 00:34:55 What would be a good goal for testing? 00:35:30 Have a framework (kinda done) 00:35:43 Write some number of tests (probably small to start with0 00:35:54 Well, today we now officially have 1. 00:35:56 Make sure we're evaluating on multiple browsers 00:36:03 I'll transition to my topic. 00:36:07 http://w3c-test.org/uievents/ 00:36:08 Get feedback from the browser vendors about our approach. 00:36:24 We now have an official home in web-platform-tests. 00:36:47 I've created some basic directory structure based on Gary and I's initial brainstorming. 00:37:39 First test to validate the framework script I proposed last week: http://w3c-test.org/uievents/order-of-events/mouse-events/ 00:37:57 You can view the source to see what I did. 00:38:24 I made the mistake of direct-checkin to master on web-platform-tests (and broke the build as a result). 00:38:39 Subsequent commits will be done via pull-request. 00:38:42 :-) 00:39:03 This mouse events tests was the simplest that I could conceive. 00:39:13 I also looked briefly at the web-driver tests. 00:39:42 It seems that we should be able to hook up webdriver to automate a large portion of our manual tests. 00:40:38 I'm still unsure how webdriver will handle input like dead-key simulation, crillic keyboard layouts, etc. 00:40:39 The mouse-event passes even if you enter/leave box 1 multiple times and then enter box 2 (from outside box 1). I would have expected the event order to be different enough to complain. 00:41:33 Yeah, we can change that. Just need to add handlers to the space around the boxes. 00:42:06 It was originally done by including the raw test in an iframe, but it didn't seem strictly necessary, so I merged the test container and the iframe together. 00:42:21 Is the pattern appropriate for testing? 00:42:50 I expected multiple mouseenter/mouseleave pairs for box 1 to be enough to make the test unhappy. 00:42:57 In any case, it looks great! 00:43:05 It's nice to have this as a starting point for the tests. 00:43:55 Yes, you bring an interesting point--the test only tests mousemove in isolation--no other events are tested--yet you almost need to test ALL the related events in sequence to make sure it's all working correctly. 00:44:08 (Start small) 00:44:52 Gary, want to try writing a followup test using this framework this week? 00:45:00 Since this is a manual test, it would be nice to have the user do something (like move the mouse) and then run a whole bunch of event order tests. 00:45:29 But we also would like each test to be small and self contained. 00:45:46 Both options are available. 00:45:57 I kept it simple with one test in one file. 00:46:07 Perhaps: Test groups as associated with a single user action (moving the mouse between boxes). and we have a number of tests for that particular group. 00:46:43 Sounds good to me. Nothing like getting your hands dirty to see what works and what doesn't. 00:46:44 That keeps tests small, and the user/tester doesn't have to repeat the same tedious action for each test. 00:46:51 Yeah. 00:47:01 Anyway, I'm out later this week. 00:47:07 :-( 00:47:12 I won't be able to play with this until Aug. 00:47:30 (although I want to) 00:47:47 Perhaps I can make some more progress on the 'test group' concept. 00:47:55 How about we set that as a goal for end of Sept. 00:48:08 OK. 00:48:12 masayuki: are you interested in contributing? 00:48:19 ... you are welcome to. 00:48:26 A user-action-group with a small set of associated tests. 00:48:36 Proposed goals for Sept.: 00:48:45 * A user-action-group with a small set of associated tests. 00:48:58 Hmm, I'd like to do that, but I have a lot of bugs to be fixed by the end of Sept... 00:49:06 * Resolve 9 bugs dealing with adding new keys/codes. 00:49:30 Gary has been sending ideas for tests--thanks Gary. 00:49:32 masayuki: The most important thing would be to get feedback on the tests. 00:49:37 I'd like to also capture those somewhere. 00:50:09 Goal: * Get initial feedback on tests from browser vendors 00:50:38 I think those 3 things capture what we can reasonably expect to fix in the time (since we have a variety of vacations during this period) 00:50:48 garykac: So, you mean, I should check the tests you will create? Then, perhaps, I could. 00:51:15 I can have some folks from MS look over it. The fella that wrote some of the original events tests is still here :-) 00:51:40 masayuki: yes, any feedback on the tests (once we have some) would be great. 00:52:01 Between the three of us, we can have feedback from Mozilla, Microsoft, and Google. :) Have any good contacts at Apple? 00:52:17 rniwa might be helpful 00:52:27 How to post feedback for them? bugzilla? github? ML? 00:52:34 No, but I can ask around once we have something to show. 00:52:50 Yeah, Ryousuke might be a good person. 00:53:28 On feedback: if we use Github issues for Web-platform-tests they might get lost in the crowd. 00:53:29 (err... that wasn't intended to be a general comment on goodness....) 00:54:21 At this point, we can track issues in a single doc (or bug if you prefer). Once things have stablized, then github issues will be more apprpriate. 00:54:22 But, github issues are the standard way to go. You can also tag people in them to get our attention. 00:55:07 We have this bug we could use for initial feedback: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25967 00:55:09 I don't feel strongly either way. We can play it by ear. 00:55:35 For checking if each test is tested, managing with single document (like Google document) isn't so bad way. 00:56:31 We were also thinking of cross-linking tests into our spec to keep better track of them. 00:56:41 Well, we can work out those details later. 00:56:55 When are we all available to meet next time? 00:57:38 Gary, what is your vacation plans? Back in August? 00:57:48 14 and 21 is avaialbe, but not so 28. 00:58:09 sicking has joined #webapps 00:58:46 I'll be out until late Aug 00:59:04 Aug 25 might be the next time... 00:59:28 I'm gone from next monday to the 23rd, so 28th would be my soonest. 00:59:39 But you could meet earlier... 01:00:06 I could meet Aug. 3, or 25th. 01:01:04 Aug 4, 11, 18, 25. 01:01:35 Uh, 4th or 25th. 01:01:36 Currently, I have no plan in Aug, so, I must be available every week in Aug. 01:02:00 I'll talk to you all on Aug 25. If you decide to meet earlier, I'll catch up by reading the log. 01:02:23 Well, can we check in on the 4th? We won't have Gary, but it will help force me to work on the testing. 01:02:29 sgtm 01:02:36 ^_^ 01:02:41 OK. 01:03:01 OK. I'm checking out now. I'll talk to you all later. 01:03:15 Thanks Gary! 01:03:26 masayuki: hear from you again on the 4th. 01:03:44 Travis: yeah, see you. 01:04:03 (starting another meeting now...) 01:04:29 rrsagent, make the minutes 01:04:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-webapps-minutes.html Travis 01:04:40 rrsagent, make logs public 01:20:38 Florian has joined #webapps 01:25:53 rniwa has joined #webapps 02:09:33 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:10:48 sicking has joined #webapps 03:22:15 Florian has joined #webapps 03:55:34 estellevw has joined #webapps 04:45:17 marcosc has joined #webapps 05:25:27 Florian has joined #webapps 05:26:18 jyasskin has joined #webapps 05:48:12 sicking has joined #webapps 06:37:56 marcosc has joined #webapps 06:40:43 darobin has joined #webapps 06:45:06 estellevw has joined #webapps 06:52:54 dom has joined #webapps 07:25:57 darobin has joined #webapps 07:30:58 Florian has joined #webapps 08:17:53 jmajnert has joined #webapps 08:27:47 chaals has 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