16:58:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-irc
16:58:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:58:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
16:58:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
16:58:38 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:58:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
16:58:39 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2015
16:58:42 <sandro> +Sandro
16:58:47 <ben_thatmustbeme> +ben_thatmustbeme
16:58:53 <wilkie> +wilkie
16:58:55 <wilkie> poor Zakim
16:58:56 <rhiaro> awwww Zakim is so lonely
16:59:02 <Loqi> :)
16:59:17 <wilkie> rude, Loqi
16:59:34 <rhiaro> and Loqi is mocking Zakim..
17:00:02 <Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-06-23]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84788&oldid=84771
17:00:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://www.webex.com/login/attend-a-meeting
17:00:43 <sandro> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m60d8f99fc911f2b6fdbb0650665f22b4
17:01:15 <wilkie> I missed last week's meeting because I forgot how time zones worked. ironically, I was writing social network code.
17:01:23 <jasnell> attempting to join
17:01:23 <sandro> Hello....???    Three of us on Webex....     Now four
17:01:40 <cwebber2> there's an echo from someone
17:01:43 <cwebber2> I'm on now too
17:01:54 <rhiaro> cwebber what sip software did you use?
17:01:58 <rhiaro> cwebber2
17:02:05 <eprodrom> Well, that's going to be terrible
17:02:09 <sandro> +Sandro
17:02:14 <eprodrom> +eprodrom
17:02:22 <eprodrom> On the phone
17:02:51 <sandro> +jasnell
17:03:15 <cwebber2> I didn't get to test SIP this time
17:03:27 <cwebber2> I'm hoping to next time
17:03:29 <cwebber2> I ran out of time
17:03:45 <cwebber2> tsyesika: rhiaro: I'll be interested if you have luck with the SIP stuff
17:04:15 <rhiaro> cwebber2: I have no idea how to connect with sip, every client I tried needs a sip address not a number. I didn't realise.
17:05:40 <wilkie> I can scribe
17:05:41 <eprodrom> Is there anyone who can scribe?
17:05:56 <ben_thatmustbeme>     sorry, was afk
17:06:00 <wilkie> that's fine with me!!
17:06:05 <eprodrom> scribenick: sandro
17:06:07 <wilkie> thanks sandro
17:06:55 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-06-16-minutes
17:07:11 <jasnell> how many people are actually on the call??
17:07:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:07:15 <jasnell> there appear to be only 6
17:07:16 <cwebber2> +1
17:07:24 <wilkie> +1
17:07:25 <eprodrom> PROPOSAL: approve minutes for 16 June 2015
17:07:30 <ben_thatmustbeme> jasnell: 6, it looks like
17:07:31 <eprodrom> +1
17:08:17 <wilkie> there seems to be a few in irc not on call too
17:09:05 <harry> harry has joined #social
17:09:31 <sandro> scribe: sandro
17:09:50 <cwebber2> rhiaro: :(
17:10:02 <cwebber2> also, I'm looking online for any evidence that there's support for SIP in webex
17:10:37 <cwebber2> I don't see any
17:10:42 <sandro> jasnell: I created an updated editors draft and publication candidate using the mf2 examples added back in, with a note about accuracy
17:11:11 <tantek> great
17:11:12 <sandro> jasnell: If they continue to be incorrect/unchecked we should look at removing them in the future, but we can publish like this
17:11:19 <tantek> we need more volunteers to help fix examples!
17:11:23 <harry> thanks jasnell!
17:11:34 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: I have a large pull request queud up with corrections
17:11:37 <wilkie> I've never successfully used SIP ~ever~ and have resorted to using skype, which is a cheap compromise for me
17:11:54 <harry> wilkie, did you try SIP with WebEx?
17:12:04 <sandro> eprodrom: lets return to the agenda.    The question of whether we can meet without certain people seems to have been addressed.
17:12:11 <sandro> eprodrom: so we are meeting.
17:12:12 <ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, didn't mean to digress there
17:12:15 <wilkie> no, with the old zakim stuff. could never get it to work.
17:12:20 <wilkie> harry: nope
17:12:24 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 16 June 2015
17:12:28 <sandro> eprodrom: Minutes of 16 june approved
17:12:29 <Arnaud_> Arnaud_ has joined #social
17:12:37 <harry> I think W3C SIP is down, so you may want to try WebEx SIP
17:12:42 <harry> I'd be interested if anyone got it working
17:12:51 <cwebber2> harry: *is* there a webex SIP?
17:13:01 <cwebber2> I couldn't find any instructions for connecting to it, if it exists
17:13:02 <sandro> eprodrom: Any progress on open issues or actions that people want to report?
17:13:06 <tsyesika> i can't find any info on webex sip
17:13:09 <harry> There's the WebEx App, which is basically VoIP
17:13:12 <sandro> s/harry:/harry,/
17:13:16 <cwebber2> harry: but that's proprietary
17:13:25 <harry> yes, indeed it is sadly enough.
17:13:34 <cwebber2> sorry
17:13:39 <harry> s/harry://
17:14:14 <jasnell> with the commit I made this morning, action-34 can be closed. http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34
17:14:23 <harry> Anyways, there's always @cwebber2 syntax
17:14:39 <cwebber2> @cwebber@irc.w3.org
17:14:39 <harry> It is a good point we should have an open-source/free software SIP, I'll bring that up Systems Team
17:14:48 <cwebber2> harry, thank you!
17:14:51 <harry> ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C
17:14:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Ask if open-source/free software sip exists for w3c [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-06-30].
17:14:56 <sandro> jasnell: I posed a commit saying they're non-normative, etc.
17:15:03 <sandro> s/posed/posted/
17:16:05 <harry> I mean, it's for W3C's WebEx, so it's the organization not Zakim.
17:16:14 <harry> Given Zakim no longer exists :)
17:16:31 <sandro> fixed
17:16:48 <sandro> topic: MF2 examples in AS2
17:17:09 <sandro> jasnell: they're in there but not correct.   we're ready to publish.
17:17:37 <tantek> what about ben_thatmustbeme's patch to fix them?
17:17:43 <sandro> jasnell: second issue is for MD and RDFa examples as well -- they do not necessarily reflect best practice.
17:17:55 <tantek> ben_thatmustbeme, what's the URL of your patch to fix the examples?
17:18:10 <sandro> jasnell: in MF2, some of the class names are just made up, not what people actually are doing.   those all need to be reviewed.
17:18:10 <tantek> for MD and RDFa - just add a warning for those too
17:18:11 <dromasca> dromasca has joined #social
17:18:12 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: they are not in yet, but i have a branch for mf2 fixes
17:18:19 <tantek> and a call for practitioners to submit fixes
17:18:25 <sandro> tantek, he's talking about down the road
17:18:27 <harry> +1 ben_thatmustbeme
17:18:52 <sandro> eprodrom: jasnell, what's the delta from the previous WG?   Is it worth doing a new version?
17:18:56 <harry> We genereally want to publish a new WG every 3 months
17:19:06 <tantek> s/WG/WD
17:19:10 <sandro> jasnell: Yes.  That was January.  Significant changes in extended vocabulary
17:19:21 <sandro> .. like dropping some object types
17:19:27 <sandro> .. shifting around properties
17:19:29 <Arnaud_> I'm listening with a crippled env
17:19:35 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: https://github.com/dissolve/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/tree/fixmicroformats
17:19:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> current work
17:19:52 <tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: is that ready to merge? or how long do you need to make it merge ready?
17:19:53 <rhiaro> I'll help with fixing microformats examples, sorry I didn't get chance to look at it this week
17:19:55 <sandro> harry: WG's are supposed to publish a WD every three months
17:20:02 <Arnaud_> did you guys recorded attendees?
17:20:13 <eprodrom> ek-KID-na
17:20:17 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
17:20:17 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
17:20:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see dromasca, Arnaud_, harry, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, tantek, almereyda, jasnell, bblfish, the_frey_, Arnaud, melvster, KevinMarks, sandro, cwebber2, wseltzer, wilkie,
17:20:19 <Zakim> ... ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, rhiaro, raucao, kylewm, tsyesika, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, JakeHart, mattl, bret, tommorris_, tet, aaronpk, Loqi, oshepherd,
17:20:19 <Zakim> ... slvrbckt, trackbot
17:20:22 <tantek> good, so we have at least two more volunteers to help fix microformats examples: rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme and me makes three
17:20:30 <Arnaud_> has to be done manually now unfortunately
17:20:38 <tantek> so let's close that issue - we have 3 volunteers to fix microformats examples
17:20:40 <sandro> Arnaud, I don't have any idea how
17:21:00 <Arnaud_> present+ Arnaud
17:21:03 <harry> So assuming the microformat review is non-controversial, we could publish next week and then have a new WD out in early July
17:21:05 <sandro> eprodrom: Can we review this new ED over the next week.
17:21:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: not yet, it would not take much, I should be able to get it mergable tonight if I have the time
17:21:17 <harry> s/publish/resolve to publish
17:21:21 <sandro> jasnell: Yes, and I can see about switching to echidna during that time.
17:21:36 <jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html
17:21:36 <rhiaro> +rhiaro
17:21:37 <jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html
17:22:20 <cwebber2> sounds good
17:22:23 <sandro> eprodrom: I'll put the decision on the agenda for next week
17:22:27 <sandro> (everyone) sounds good
17:22:34 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
17:22:43 <rhiaro> present+ rhiaro
17:22:54 <eprodrom> ben_thatmustbeme, multiple "natural" languages in the AS 2.0?
17:22:55 <sandro> topic: Multiple Natural Languages in AS2
17:23:50 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: Not sure this is an issue any more...
17:24:02 <melvster> FYI : example from spec:
17:24:03 <melvster>       "displayNameMap": {
17:24:03 <melvster>         "en": "Martin added a new video to his album.",
17:24:03 <melvster>         "ga": "Martin phost le fisean nua a albam."
17:24:03 <melvster>       },
17:24:41 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: THe need for multiuple natural languages in a single activity.   No user stories include it.  No systems I know that use it.   I was suggesting removing it.
17:25:06 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: I think it's complex enough that I don't know how to solve it.
17:25:13 <tantek> we should drop features from AS2 that have zero presence in any user stories and zero silo equivalent feature implementations
17:25:31 <aaronpk> +1
17:25:42 <sandro> jasnell: Multi language support is a feature of json-ld.   We inherit support even if we don't say anything.    This is trying to scope it a bit, to say it's only meaningul in particular cntext
17:25:50 <sandro> .. ADL's XAPI uses it.
17:26:00 <sandro> .. some others do too
17:26:16 <sandro> .. that's AS1
17:26:39 <tantek> we don't inherit support because we don't require consuming code to support JSONLD
17:26:41 <sandro> .. That said, the use cases for this are fairly specific.     I've used it for translation of activities
17:26:48 <tantek> kind of tired of that kind of reasoning
17:27:13 <sandro> .. I see there are some issues with translation to MF2 and MD, which are more presentation oriented.
17:27:29 <harry> I do think multiple language support is important, the W3C really wants to support internationalization in general
17:27:37 <sandro> .. I think it's okay that some things don't translate perfectly, but I think it's important to keep it.
17:27:38 <tsyesika> I think being able to express content in multiple languages is important for multilingual people with followers who understand different language(s)
17:27:44 <tsyesika> I would be opposed to removing it
17:27:54 <harry> Now, the details of how it transforms into any non-normative alternative syntax is to me not a big deal.
17:28:00 <sandro> eprodrom: Is it possible to continue using JSON-LD without this feature
17:28:22 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: We don't have to mention it in the spec.   I don't want it to be required.
17:28:42 <sandro> jasnell: It's already out there, scoped to four fields.
17:28:45 <Arnaud_> we could be silent about it though
17:29:00 <sandro> jasnell: It's a requirement for consumers, not publishers.
17:29:05 <sandro> q?
17:29:29 <sandro> jasnell: It's a bit of a pain for non-json-ld, I guess, but not that much.
17:29:54 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking for ways to simplify things for WG, reducing test cases, etc.
17:29:59 <harry> q+
17:30:07 <sandro> jasnell: I don't see it as adding much complexity.
17:30:10 <tsyesika> I think the current state of things being able to express things in multiple languages is really useful
17:30:23 <sandro> jasnell: As far as I'm concerned it doesn't add complexity.
17:30:34 <bblfish> q+
17:30:36 <Arnaud_> present+ jasnell
17:31:06 <sandro> eprodrom: It sounds like we have a use case not yet captured.    Is it possible to capture it?
17:31:11 <wilkie> as an implementor, I'd feel rather bad not including support for multiple language posts, and worried that the IG was just biased to miss this use-case
17:31:18 <Arnaud_> present+ evanpro
17:31:35 <tantek> as an implementer, I feel bad waiting to ship because someone required features that no one has ever built before
17:31:38 <sandro> eprodrom: Sounds like there's some use case that maybe just needs to be captured.
17:31:45 <Arnaud_> present+ harry
17:31:59 <sandro> tantek, jasnell says it's deployed in products
17:32:08 <Arnaud_> present+ sandro
17:32:10 <wilkie> tantek: oh tantek, you poor over-worked coder :)
17:32:21 <tantek> wilkie - real implementors ship
17:32:27 <tantek> rather than "feel rather bad"
17:32:32 <bblfish> I think Ann Basseti made a case for languages and internationalisation
17:32:35 <jasnell> jsnell
17:32:46 <tsyesika> I am beginging to use this on my implementation, i have seen it used on facebook when before i closed my facebook account
17:32:50 <eprodrom> ACTION jsnell document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in AS 2.0
17:32:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in as 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2015-06-30].
17:32:52 <wilkie> tantek: your passive aggression is on point today!! of course, what is the point if you ship something only people a lot like us can use
17:33:06 <tantek> so there's a new use-case in More User Stories then? URL?
17:33:06 <harry> q- harry
17:33:09 <eprodrom> q?
17:33:14 <bblfish> q-]
17:33:16 <bblfish> q-
17:33:17 <eprodrom> ack bblfish
17:33:19 <melvster> FYI: SoLiD apps both produce and consume multi language already .... example: http://live.dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=DESCRIBE+%3Chttp://dbpedia.org/resource/Kevin_Marks%3E&output=application%2Fld%2Bjson
17:33:28 <harry> just was going to point out W3C supports internationalization in general, see how multiple language support in past was added to XML, RDF, etc.
17:33:36 <tantek> wilkie - what's the point in current silos who reach billions of people? clearly they must all be "people a lot like us"
17:33:40 <harry> So I'd be worried if this was removed completely.
17:33:45 <eprodrom> q?
17:34:44 <harry> We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project
17:35:01 <harry> The City of Helsinki plans to implement some internal social software
17:35:07 <sandro> topic: Invited Experts
17:35:09 <harry> that will also have some public-facing AS2.0 endpoints
17:35:14 <harry> [looking for other IE]
17:35:20 <wilkie> tantek: you are so concerned with what already exists. besides, twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case.
17:35:22 <sandro> eprodrom: Sorry for the delay, chairs will deal with it before next week
17:35:27 <sandro> topic: Social API
17:35:32 <harry> We discussed the API heavily last call
17:35:34 <tantek> wilkie - documentation of "twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case."?
17:35:40 <harry> not sure if there's been any updates since?
17:35:47 <eprodrom> q?
17:35:56 <cwebber2> rhiaro might but she isn't able to hear
17:35:56 <tsyesika> for what it's worth http://tsyesika.se/feed I've started manually writing my ActivityPump feed before I have got my software ready, that's using it
17:36:10 <tsyesika> oh we've moved on
17:36:11 <rhiaro> I started putting together this strawman API doc thingy
17:36:12 <Arnaud_> if we were silent on the multilanguage issue it becomes a quality of the implementation rather than a requirement
17:36:24 <tantek> +Tantek
17:36:29 <eprodrom> rhiaro, are you on the call?
17:36:30 <sandro> tsyesika, rhiaro are you on call?
17:36:41 <tsyesika> i'm not, i couldn't get things working sorry >.<
17:36:45 <eprodrom> Anyone on the call who can give an update
17:36:51 <sandro> eprodrom: Anyone on call who can give an update
17:36:56 <tsyesika> I'm only able to participate via IRC today
17:36:57 <rhiaro> There's not much to update; I started this: https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md
17:36:58 <tantek> I think the last call / minutes gave a good update
17:37:05 <rhiaro> It's not in particularly useful shape yet
17:37:07 <cwebber2> eprodrom, harry, see above
17:37:09 <sandro> harry: Last week we talked about folks brainstorming and trying to implement
17:37:24 <sandro>       https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
17:37:24 <sandro> 	  https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-APIs-Brainstorming
17:37:24 <sandro>  - Doug?
17:37:40 <rhiaro> I'll work more on this https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md this week, hopefully with help from others :)
17:37:41 <tantek> thanks for the links sandro
17:37:41 <sandro> harry:We need drafts by next F2F at absolute latest
17:37:43 <bblfish> sorry, did not get around to contribute this week. It's on my list.
17:37:52 <sandro> shepazu, I'm scribing
17:38:04 <cwebber2> +q
17:38:11 <sandro> harry: We want people to add to Brainstorming doc
17:38:20 <wilkie> tantek: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172132-tweet-translation not to mention people who have multiple accounts so to have an english account
17:38:21 <sandro> harry: Then somehow converge it into a spec
17:38:37 <tantek> wilkie++ thanks wilkie - appreciate the reference
17:38:40 <Loqi> wilkie has 15 karma
17:38:56 <sandro> shepazu, sorry, your name was a paste-o
17:39:11 <harry> shepazu, maybe an update from the Annotations work would be in order if possible?
17:39:48 <sandro> tantek: Brainstorming document looks good.   We need to keep encouraging progress.    I'd like to continue down that path, rather than an arbitrary deadline, like 1st draft by tpac.
17:40:12 <sandro> harry: I'm just trying to remind folks of our charter schedule
17:40:28 <sandro> tantek: Worst thing is to publish a std prematurely
17:40:35 <melvster> tantek++
17:40:38 <Loqi> tantek has 204 karma
17:40:44 <cwebber2> o/
17:40:51 <sandro> harry: I agree, but we do need to provide some evidence of progress
17:40:59 <rhiaro> q?
17:41:29 <the_frey> the_frey has joined #social
17:41:29 <harry> It's not a PR problem, it's a management issue
17:41:50 <cwebber2> hey can I make a comment :P
17:42:01 <sandro> sandro: The AC has a duty to review what we're doing, it's not a PR question
17:42:03 <cwebber2> q?
17:42:19 <harry> Anyways, we are in scope, but we have had lots of groups go off charter and fail to deliver, so we just need to show signs of progress.
17:42:24 <harry> So far, the convergence is good.
17:42:32 <sandro> jasnell: How is a WD prematurely shipping a spec
17:42:47 <sandro> tantek: The world considers a WD shipping a spec
17:42:51 <harry> There's differences in philosophy here, the important thing is to be making progress :)
17:42:56 <sandro> q?
17:42:56 <tantek> q?
17:43:33 <sandro> eprodrom: Our current brainstorming document isn't something that can be implemented --- we want to get something closer to implementable
17:43:42 <eprodrom> ack cwebber
17:44:16 <sandro> cwebber2: rhiaro is working on building a straw document, micropump.md
17:44:31 <sandro> .. needs help from solid, to be micropumplid.md   :-)
17:44:38 <rhiaro> thanks cwebber2. https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md <- this is *not* the same brainstorming doc you've seen before
17:44:50 <bblfish> Sorry again, for not having spent time last week on this document. I am getting towards it.
17:45:02 <bblfish> Hope @sandro can help out too
17:45:14 <rhiaro> bblfish: I started adding a bit of SoLiD into the brainstorming README, I hope that helps
17:45:15 <sandro> bblfish, I
17:45:27 <sandro> bblfish, don't count on me for that
17:45:48 <sandro> cwebber2: I've been doing do experiments in guile/scheme building toward activitypump
17:45:48 <bblfish> sandro why are you on this group?
17:46:03 <bblfish> (just a question)
17:46:13 <bblfish> q+
17:46:16 <sandro> bblfish, to help it succeed.   duh.
17:46:21 <eprodrom> ack bblfish
17:46:36 <tantek> wait what is going on?
17:46:40 <harry> I'm pretty sure Sandro cares :)
17:46:47 <tantek> I'm very confused
17:46:50 <harry> No one scribes for fun!
17:47:40 <cwebber2> oops I dropped off
17:47:42 <cwebber2> phone crashed
17:48:10 <tantek> I'm VERY confused by this dialog
17:48:23 <tantek> sandro: I'm not a big fan of SoLiD
17:48:30 <tantek> sandro: there's some very complicated things going on there
17:48:35 <tantek> sandro: there are other people who are
17:48:38 <Loqi> sandro has 15 karma
17:48:43 <tantek> sandro: my allegiance is making something that really works well here
17:48:53 <rhiaro> sandro++
17:48:56 <Loqi> sandro has 16 karma
17:49:02 <tantek> henry: so you want to do like LDP, join last 3 months and make a lot of comments and noise?
17:49:16 <sandro> bblfish, I wrote the LDP charter.
17:49:24 <tantek> evan: we are done with this conversation, if you (henry) want to talk to sandro about participation in this group that's something you can do offline.
17:49:29 <shepazu> bblfish--
17:49:33 <Loqi> bblfish has 10 karma
17:49:36 <harry> q+
17:49:38 <sandro> bblfish--
17:49:41 <Loqi> bblfish has 9 karma
17:49:44 <bblfish> well its worrying if sandro who is in a solid position is undermining solid
17:49:49 <tantek> evan: we do need contributions from people interested in SoLiD contributing to the brainstorming document
17:49:56 <bblfish> not sure if it is woth me fighting this battle alone
17:49:56 <sandro> bblfish, take that up with Tim
17:49:57 <tantek> evan: we do want to consider it at least in principle
17:50:05 <tantek> evan: for what we will come up with
17:50:13 <harry> For example, I'm still working my head around SoLID as well - and wouldn't comment on it until I have a better understanding
17:50:17 <cwebber2> bblfish, we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time
17:50:22 <tantek> evan: if you want to see SoLiD come out as part of the Social API then it behooves you to participate in this brainstorming
17:50:27 <tantek> evan: if not, then that's fine too
17:50:30 <cwebber2> shepazu, haha
17:50:32 <melvster> i already raised an issue to the doc last week which rhiaro fixed already
17:50:36 <tantek> henry: it's not really interesting, I don't really see the point here
17:50:51 <tantek> henry: trying to fight a battle where most people are trying to go the other way is a complete waste of time
17:50:59 <tantek> henry: if Sandro is fighting against it
17:51:11 <cwebber2> bblfish, this is not productive
17:51:11 <sandro> I am *not* fighting against it.
17:51:13 <tantek> harry: can we get a quick update from schepers?
17:51:24 <jasnell> thank you for ending that particular conversation
17:51:28 <tantek> evan: let's wrap up this Social API point
17:51:36 <tantek> evan: doug if you are on the call and you don't mind giving us an update
17:51:42 <tantek> schepers: sure
17:51:50 <sandro> tantek, thanks for scribing.     too in shock to scribe.
17:51:52 <bblfish> it is productive for me cwebber2. I just found out that if I participate I'll get no help from Sandro. So I'd just be wasting my time. Unless others want to support me.
17:51:56 <harry> shepazu, have time for a quick update on Annotations? When should look at the draft annotation specs?  What's the dependencies?
17:51:56 <tantek> shepazu: we separated our web annotation group into separate areas
17:52:08 <tantek> shepazu: one is data model, given a message, what is the formatting
17:52:10 <sandro> bblfish, that's ALSO not what I said bblfish
17:52:30 <tantek> shepazu: our default serialization is JSONLD, you can also use turtle, some of us are interested in HTML as well, e.g. using microformats
17:52:39 <tantek> shepazu: somehow mapping the data model to indicators in HTML
17:52:42 <tantek> shepazu: second thing
17:52:47 <tantek> shepazu: the annotation protocol
17:52:55 <tantek> shepazu: this is basically LDP with some bits bolted on
17:53:10 <bblfish> cwebber: >  we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time <  yes, I am interested in helping but only if I get more support. I am not interested in working for free for nothing.
17:53:18 <tantek> shepazu: main difference is that LDP has a should re: default no accept headers is sent, it should be turtle, we are saying JSONLD instead with a MUST
17:53:28 <rhiaro> bblfish, those of us who are contributing are doing so because we care about a particular technology and working for convergence, all of us 'working for free' currently
17:53:38 <tantek> shepazu: we're about to publish that, the annotation protocol, probably next week, as a first public WD
17:53:44 <tantek> shepazu: the 3rd thing is the range finder API
17:53:49 <ben_thatmustbeme> ditto to rhiaro
17:53:52 <tantek> shepazu: the idea is that given any kind of text
17:53:55 <bblfish> yes, but unless there is a team supporting me, its not helpful to work on something.
17:54:00 <tantek> shepazu: you want to point to a particular section of text
17:54:09 <bblfish> I'd just be downvoted on every important issue
17:54:22 <tantek> shepazu: we made rangefinder API - sort of like a find in page API
17:54:23 <tantek> shepazu: later on there will be a URL syntax that will take advantage of this
17:54:24 <eprodrom> bblfish, sandro please take this discussion out of channel
17:54:26 <tantek> shepazu: this is similar to fragmentions
17:54:35 <eprodrom> https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
17:54:36 <tantek> shepazu: it's a way that fragmentions could be re-ified in the browser
17:54:43 <tantek> shepazu: we have other things going on as well
17:54:57 <tantek> shepazu: all of this is geared towards, you can put the pieces together and it will make an annotation client
17:55:36 <tantek> sandro: I'm trying to understand how AS2 works with this
17:55:40 <tantek> s/sandro/shepazu
17:55:45 <sandro> shepazu: It's a big goal NOT to conflict with what you're doing
17:55:48 <tantek> shepazu: our goal is to not conflict, and to re-use
17:56:03 <sandro> shepazu: If there's something that can be generalized beyond annotations, that's what we want to do
17:56:15 <sandro> shepazu: We're just trying to put any necessary building blocks in place
17:56:32 <sandro> eprodrom: You mentiooned the protocol, which sounds like the main overlap.  Is there an ED?
17:56:49 <cwebber2> :)
17:56:50 <sandro> shepazu: ... looking ....
17:57:00 <shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
17:57:08 <sandro> eprodrom: This sounds a lot like solid
17:57:12 <sandro> Social Linked Data
17:57:26 <sandro> eprodrom: It'd be good compare/contrast
17:57:55 <sandro> eprodrom: that looks like a kind of old draft....   maybe the date's wrong?
17:58:36 <cwebber2> thanks shepazu
17:58:39 <sandro> eprodrom: Please, people try to take a look
17:58:43 <eprodrom> q?
17:58:48 <harry> q- harry
17:58:51 <eprodrom> ack harry
17:58:53 <rhiaro> q+ to ask (in irc) if the current pending IE applications ahve been looked at
17:58:54 <cwebber2> shepazu++
17:58:57 <Loqi> shepazu has 2 karma
17:59:02 <bblfish> I should look at Annotations Protocol. I am sure I'd like to use it.
17:59:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> shepazu++
17:59:26 <sandro> eprodrom: So I'll take a look at that protocol, and I hope everyone else does, too.
17:59:29 <Loqi> shepazu has 3 karma
17:59:35 <harry> rhiaro, the answer is "no"
17:59:39 <tantek> thank you shepazu for the overview and summary!
17:59:43 <sandro> eprodrom: AOB?
17:59:45 <eprodrom> q?
17:59:49 <cwebber2> thanks for scribing sandro (and tantek for filling in)
17:59:54 <cwebber2> and thanks for chairing eprodrom
17:59:58 <rhiaro> Thanks harry
17:59:59 <cwebber2> sandro++
18:00:02 <cwebber2> tantek++
18:00:02 <Loqi> sandro has 17 karma
18:00:05 <cwebber2> eprodrom++
18:00:06 <Loqi> tantek has 205 karma
18:00:08 <Loqi> eprodrom has 16 karma
18:00:11 <sandro> ADJOURN
18:00:15 <Arnaud_> ji am on but gotta go
18:00:18 <sandro> (chairs please stay)
18:00:31 <wilkie> -wilkie
18:00:33 <cwebber2> have fun chairs
18:00:45 <ben_thatmustbeme> -ben_thatmustbeme
18:00:45 <Arnaud_> you can go ahdad without me
18:01:10 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro, as moderator you can kick those that are still on too
18:01:28 <sandro> ben_thatmustbeme, harry's the moderator of this call right now.
18:05:11 <bblfish> sandro--
18:05:13 <Loqi> too much karma!
18:07:20 <shepazu> sandro++
18:07:52 <harry> no worries, we are just going through IE stuff
18:10:02 <Loqi> Eprodrom made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-06-30]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84796&oldid=0
18:15:23 <bblfish> rhiaro the problem is not working for free, the problem is "working for nothing"
18:16:06 <bblfish> ie: for no result.
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18:21:03 <rhiaro> bblfish: What is the result you prefer?
18:21:11 <rhiaro> It sounds like you're worried about people arbitrarily ignoring your contributions
18:21:26 <rhiaro> For me, and others, the result we want is interoperable decentralised social web systems, one way or another. Not the elevation of a particular technology.
18:21:44 <wilkie> I appreciate everybody's contributions!
18:21:55 <rhiaro> We want to make something work; nobody is going to ignore good contributions for no reason
18:22:00 <rhiaro> thanks wilkie :)
18:24:19 <tantek> wilkie - I've said it before and I'll say it again, really glad you are here and for all your contributions.
18:24:38 <tantek> in code and in IRC
18:25:06 <wilkie> awwww :')
18:25:12 <Loqi> cute!
18:25:40 <wilkie> same for you!!
18:25:50 <wilkie> much <3 to the room
18:26:51 <bblfish> Look as sandro and Harry said its a question of how one invests one's time. If Sandro and Arnaud are not here interested in working on this document, and Tantek says its not really important that anything be ready by next F2F, then one has to consider the possibility that the work they have given you is just a political game to make people do something that the group does not really want to invest in. Now I can invest my time just doing SoLiD o
18:26:52 <bblfish> r working with a group that does not really want to work together. So I am happy to find how these things can work together, but without support I am not sure how much time I should put into this. Sandro thinks any time put into this document is too much of his time.
18:27:55 <bblfish> I mean I can also sit back and agree with "whatever consensus the working group comes to".
18:28:00 <harry> Lots of people in this group are working together productively, but everyone has time constraints. I would try to be more polite next time and have these kinds of conversations in private.
18:29:57 <bblfish> Look sandro wrote above: "sandro: bblfish, don't count on me for that"
18:30:09 <bblfish> ( for helping out on the document )
18:30:15 <bblfish> he said that publically
18:30:27 <bblfish> and this is not the first time
18:32:59 <rhiaro> bblfish: Nobody is demanding you help out. If you don't have time, just say so as others have. You can still follow the group without working on the spec
18:33:26 <rhiaro> We just have a general call for help with SoLiD, it doesn't matter particularly *who* helps
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18:48:26 <bblfish> rhiaro: yes, I understand. I am trying to find others who back supporting that document, that is who are willing to invest time in it.
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19:44:16 <melvster> harry: what happens if the works draft isnt ready by the F2F?
19:44:22 <melvster> s/works/working
19:45:48 <harry> The AC may ask what precisely the WG is doing with its time
19:46:22 <melvster> harry:  who's the AC?  I presume AS2 is a deliverable that's on track still?
19:46:23 <harry> At W3C, we're starting to move to close groups that aren't productive.
19:46:30 <harry> Melvin, please read about the W3C.
19:46:55 <melvster> harry: thanks, will do.  Sorry to take up your time.
19:47:12 <harry> the process is exceedingly well documented in the W3C process doc
19:52:42 <melvster> harry: ah I by AC you mean advisory committee, well imho AS2 is looking good, independent of the other deliverables
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20:21:53 <melvster> rhiaro: thanks for adding the SoLiD sections to the brainstorming doc
20:21:57 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, please generate minutes
20:21:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-minutes.html rhiaro
20:22:28 <rhiaro> melvster, does that help you see how more SoLiD sections can be added?
20:22:34 <rhiaro> Also I don't know if they're correct
20:22:41 <rhiaro> Sorry if not! You know what to do :)
20:24:09 <melvster> rhiaro: yes I like it, pretty much all spot on, imho
20:24:58 <rhiaro> I know I left at least one '?' in there..
20:25:02 <melvster> rhiaro: I can make some minor edits just reading thru the page
20:25:47 <melvster> rhiaro: just a stylistic question 'We are not trying to re-standardize identity on the web' -- why RE standardize, is the implication that identity is *already* standardized someplace?
20:26:03 <rhiaro> Oh you're reading a different doc to the one I thought
20:26:22 <melvster> hmm https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md
20:26:27 <rhiaro> Well, there have been many attempts to standardize..
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20:26:54 <rhiaro> yeah the README is the 'brainstorming doc', micropump.md is ... whatever we're calling it. Strawman SocialAPI draft.
20:26:55 <melvster> rhiaro:  there have?  could you say more?
20:27:28 <rhiaro> WebID? OpenID? various social networks trying to make their one login to rule them all?
20:27:43 <rhiaro> Though I wrote that off the top of my head half an hour before the call tonight, don't read too much into it
20:28:56 <melvster> rhiaro: ok great, openid is really a verification protocol, not an identity protocol (ironically given the name!)
20:29:15 <rhiaro> I'm still fuzzy with the details
20:29:37 <melvster> iirc in openid you can have an http url, an xri, or an email address as your identifier
20:29:47 <melvster> but it's a small section in one of the specs, and it's changed a lot
20:30:36 <melvster> tho i think the w3c advised not to use xris in specs
20:31:45 <melvster> re: foaf:Agent maybe?
20:32:21 <melvster> if that's a question, a webid isnt tied to foaf, it could be a schema.org Person, a facebook ogp person or any other type of agent (agent being the super class of people and bots)
20:33:00 <melvster> in the webid+tls spec foaf:agent is used I think in the range of some of the vocab classes, bblfish will know better, tho there's not a real need to be that specific
20:33:40 <melvster> tl;dr to answer the question, SoLiD can accept any type of person URI for identity
20:34:33 <rhiaro> cool, thanks for that melvster
20:34:53 <melvster> np, i only mentioned it because of the ? there, im happy to answer questions
20:35:48 <melvster> in particular, SoLiD could use AS : Actor
20:36:06 <melvster> or maybe even mf2 : author
20:36:14 <melvster> if it has a URI
20:39:00 <melvster> rhiaro: re: the content reading and writing, it's quite difficult to compare SoLiD to an API ... because in SoLiD, just like the web, *any* page can be a resource for reading or for writing ...
20:39:33 <melvster> for example when im getting the latest posts I go
20:39:43 <melvster> user -> workspace -> channels -> posts
20:39:50 <melvster> then do a GET on that to get posts
20:39:57 <melvster> this is all through link following
20:40:06 <melvster> ie follow your nose
20:40:24 <rhiaro> yeah
20:40:45 <melvster> we dont have specific inboxes and outboxes, but we could make some, if we knew what to implement
20:41:08 <melvster> we've talked about inboxes and outboxes before
20:41:48 <melvster> we can POST to any directory
20:42:03 <melvster> and other clients can watch that directory via a websocket
20:42:26 <melvster> so i could fire up a directory now as easily as creating a directory on my desktop, then I could give you permission to watch it
20:42:49 <melvster> but it's not of @type Inbox
20:42:55 <melvster> more opaque than that
20:43:12 <melvster> we could create a special type of directory
20:43:15 <melvster> one for activity streams
20:43:24 <melvster> and say, 'put all your AS2 stuff there'
20:43:59 <melvster> but actually already in SoLiD you can POST AS2 to any directory, read it, or create it via PUT
20:44:28 <melvster> it's like a super set of the functionality in the API
20:46:10 <melvster> so perhaps we could make commonly used directories for AS2 for 'inbox' and 'outbox'
20:46:29 <melvster> that could work
20:46:42 <melvster> or if AS2 defines "inbox" and "Outbox" we just reuse that
20:47:29 <melvster> we could just add those terms to AS2
20:53:45 <melvster> yes that works
20:55:35 <melvster> tantek: would indieweb people be open to implementing inboxes and outboxes?
20:57:07 <aaronpk> my outbox is my home page
20:57:13 <aaronpk> my inbox is my webmention endpoint
20:59:34 <melvster> aaronpk: got it
20:59:58 <melvster> aaronpk: tho isnt there only so much content you can put on your homepage?
21:00:13 <melvster> harry: We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project -- pointers please!
21:00:19 <aaronpk> yes, it falls off after a "while", only new stuff is there
21:00:31 <aaronpk> once I have more "activity-like" things on my home page i'm going to make it paged
21:00:47 <melvster> aaronpk: it makes sense
21:01:00 <melvster> aaronpk: any thoughts on how to do pagination?
21:01:09 <aaronpk> rel=next and rel=prev
21:01:11 <melvster> e.g. did you see the thread about HTTP 209?
21:01:21 <aaronpk> the actual pagination scheme is up to the server and opaque to clients
21:01:27 <melvster> ok
21:01:53 <aaronpk> uh is this page blank for anyone else? http://www.w3.org/2014/02/2xx/draft-prudhommeaux-http-status-209
21:02:13 <melvster> oh yeah it's blank for me too now
21:02:54 <melvster> LDP has pagination I think
21:03:29 <melvster> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp-paging.html#ldppclient
21:03:58 <aaronpk> no i have not heard of http 209
21:04:51 <melvster> aaronpk: it was a proposed system (by timbl) to say that a page returns content, but also has links to a bigger data set, e.g. that its one page in a set, and how to get to the other content
21:05:09 <melvster> ok ldp uses rel="next" too
21:05:18 <aaronpk> i think rel=next/prev works fine
21:05:29 <aaronpk> and can be done in either the http header or in the response body
21:08:07 <rhiaro> Presumably pump.io/ActivityPump handle pagination of the outbox and don't expect to deliver everything at once
21:08:24 <melvster> pagination is only one way to organize data
21:08:58 <aaronpk> melvster: I should point out that my "pagination" is not actually done by page number, but by absolute offsets, so the contents of my pages never change
21:09:08 <melvster> for inspiration on streams of json, activity, windowing and complex event processing, I find https://geteventstore.com/ interesting
21:09:26 <melvster> ok
21:09:37 <aaronpk> but that is opaque to clients because they just follow rel=next/prev
21:10:02 <Loqi> Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84808&oldid=84769
21:11:18 <rhiaro> my pagination is by month at the moment
21:18:10 <tantek> melvster: up to each indieweb person and their site - if having a concept of inbox/outbox is an itch they want to scratch then they might look into it.
21:18:32 <tantek> however, as aaronpk said, for current indieweb sites, there's no need for a separate inbox/outbox abstraction.
21:18:48 <tantek> as webmention endpoint / homepage h-feed already satisfy the needs
21:20:00 <melvster> tantek: yes SoLiD is the same way, *but* we could implement inbox/outbox if it was a requirement of the spec
21:20:02 <Loqi> Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/invited-experts]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84809&oldid=79323
21:20:32 <rhiaro> I mapped webmention endpoint / homepage to inbox / outbox [in my head | on some braindump document]
21:20:52 <aaronpk> yea that idea has been floating around for a while now
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21:32:01 <melvster> it's a heuristic really
21:40:01 <Loqi> Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84810&oldid=84808
21:43:50 <oshepherd> aaronpk: pump.io does rel=next/prev (encoded in JSON links collection) pagination of its' collections too
21:44:22 <oshepherd> I think for ActivityPump/ActivityStreams I prefer rel=next/prev as link headers as it removes "representation metadata" from the actual content
21:44:59 <aaronpk> cool. I would agree with that
21:45:20 <melvster> what I am tending to do for instant messaging is to have one container per day, each day contains all the posts for that day
21:45:30 <melvster> time forms a natural sequence
21:45:40 <oshepherd> pump.io also uses absolute pagination, fwiw (specifically you ask for all things /since/ a given object ID)
21:45:53 <oshepherd> (or things /before/)
21:46:30 <melvster> like a named query?
21:46:47 <aaronpk> cool
21:46:59 <oshepherd> Just /api/oshepherd/feed?since=.../api/oshepherd/note/xxxx
21:48:18 <oshepherd> Absolute pagination is a MUST IMO since it's essnetial to the way some clients operate
21:48:41 <oshepherd> (My client, Impeller, is a "sync" style client - that is, it stores a local copy of your feed like an E-Mail client does)
21:51:23 <melvster> oshepherd: thats what I do too
21:51:29 <melvster> tho in the browser
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23:39:52 <tantek> melvster - the difference is that indieweb folks implement stuff because they're scratching a personal practical itch, not because "if it was a requirement of the spec"
23:41:47 <melvster> tantek: yeah that's one thing i really like about indieweb, but if the w3c comes out with a social spec, I'll probably implement it, assuming I dont have to drop something else
23:43:10 <melvster> tantek: pretty much everything I implement is scratching an itch, just stuff that I found no place else so I just thought, OK, I'll build it myself
23:43:29 <melvster> web 2.0 can get you 80% of what you need, but it's that 20% that hurts me
23:43:52 <melvster> tantek: in fact the web itself was a 'scratching an itch' project
23:47:11 <tantek> right - which is why I think any specs the W3C develops, social or otherwise, ought to also be scratching very specific itches, or rather based on what has been *proven* by people/implementers scratching their own itches
23:47:30 <tantek> instead of the classic spec model of political aspirational consensus first, implementation second
23:47:31 <melvster> tantek++
23:47:34 <Loqi> tantek has 207 karma
23:48:10 <almereyda> Loqi, how much karma do I have?
23:48:17 <melvster> tantek: I hear what you are a saying, but I think you may be jaded from listening to opinionated people without implementation experience
23:48:54 <tantek> not jaded, but rather emboldened, by finding that working with implementers you can get things done, even semi-independently, without having to worry about armchair architects that don't actually build or ship anything ever
23:49:40 <melvster> tantek: I generally agree, but I dont take such an extreme position.  There some people with great knowledge, that you can learn lots from even if they are not coding day in and day out.
23:50:40 <tantek> great knowledge rarely exists in the absence of great (implementation) experience
23:50:44 <tantek> that being said, we can learn from anyone who has an itch
23:50:53 <tantek> whether or not they can or do scratch it themselves
23:52:04 <melvster> tankek: i used to run a fantasy football forum ... everyone has an opinion but most people never will anything and will never win anything ... some people say 10%-20% have consistently good opinions, thats rare, you learn to listen to them ... most of the time this correlates well with good results back and forward ... from working on the web I do think implementation experience counts for a lot, but maybe not 100% more like 80% in my book
23:54:06 <melvster> on the web the other part is that you need to scale
23:54:29 <tantek> scaling comes with iteration
23:55:01 <melvster> tantek: you need a good architecture to scale, then it comes with iteration ... there are many many examples of systems that dont scale, the web is a RARE exception
23:55:57 <melvster> very few people ask WHY the web scales
23:56:20 <tantek> no you need iteration to scale. you never hear about the prematurely overarchitected solutions that never ship or are too cumbersome for the simple initial use-cases to get any uptake.
23:56:35 <tantek> what scales is what first succeeds, then rapidly iterates.
23:56:53 <tantek> succefuly sclaing architectures are evolved, not designed 100% a priori
23:58:11 <tantek> HTML, HTTP, and URL being prime examples, as opposed to all the massively overarchitected hypertext system designs that preceded them