14:57:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:57:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-irc
14:57:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:57:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:57:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:57:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:57:14 <trackbot> Date: 22 June 2015
14:57:46 <ivan> Chair: Markus
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14:59:58 <brady_duga> present+ duga
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15:00:09 <ivan> present+ ivan_herman
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15:00:18 <ivan> present+ doug_schepers
15:00:30 <ivan> present+ markus_gylling
15:00:40 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer
15:00:45 <ivan> present+shinyu_murakami
15:00:53 <ivan> present+ tzviya_siegman
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15:00:55 <tzviya> present+ tzviya_siegman
15:01:17 <ivan> present dave_cramer
15:01:25 <dkaplan3> present+ deborah_kaplan
15:01:41 <kwkbtr> present+ Toru_Kawakubo
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15:01:45 <astearns> present+ astearns
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15:01:51 <ivan> present+ charles_lapierre
15:01:54 <mgylling> present+ mgylling
15:02:00 <Julie> + julie morris
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15:02:06 <ivan> present+ michael_miller
15:02:07 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:02:12 <ivan> present+ julie_morris
15:02:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:36 <ivan> scribenick: dauwhe
15:02:53 <ivan> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/5582D1E1.7030707@gmail.com
15:03:01 <dauwhe> [general hilarity]
15:03:14 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:03:18 <ivan> present+ toru_kawakubo
15:03:37 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
15:03:40 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0076.html
15:04:12 <dauwhe> [unicode humor]
15:04:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's get started
15:04:31 <ayla_stein> present+ Ayla Stein
15:04:33 <pkra> Present+ pkra
15:04:36 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
15:04:37 <dauwhe> ... last week's minutes
15:04:40 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
15:04:49 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved
15:05:02 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0091.html
15:05:12 <dauwhe> ... PF has asked the publishing community to look at aria-described-at
15:05:22 <dauwhe> ... it's at risk and might be removed
15:05:29 <dauwhe> ... Rich has asked us to send comments
15:05:40 <dauwhe> ... we discussed this on friday
15:05:52 <Karen> Present+ Karen
15:06:02 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: described-at is vvery valuable for digital publishing a11y
15:06:15 <dauwhe> ... some of the concerns about longdesc are addressed by this
15:06:17 <ivan> s/vvery/very/
15:06:30 <dauwhe> ... some concerns are not addressed, but we still think it's valuable
15:06:42 <dauwhe> ... very powerful: any element can reference something further away
15:06:49 <dauwhe> ... we think it would be good for dpub
15:06:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:07:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: right now publishing is embracing a11y, but it's in early stages
15:07:14 <dauwhe> ... took me 18mo to get my company to use alt text
15:07:25 <dauwhe> ... we're a slow moving industry
15:07:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
15:07:35 <dauwhe> ... we like a11y and want to support it
15:07:50 <dauwhe> ... but it's tricky to say if we don't use this right away, it will be removed
15:08:08 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: the publishers want us to tell them what to do
15:08:09 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
15:08:19 <dauwhe> ... they will adopt them at glacial speed, along with reading tools
15:08:30 <dauwhe> ... must be supported by user agents
15:08:45 <tzviya> ack Bill
15:08:45 <dauwhe> ... they want us to say "here is what you can use"
15:08:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: quick question
15:09:11 <dauwhe> ... is the key point that longdesc and described-at are not the same thing
15:09:27 <dauwhe> ... some folks who hate longdesc also hate described-at
15:09:34 <dauwhe> ... sometimes for the same reasons
15:09:37 <ivan> q+
15:09:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:09:55 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: we want both
15:10:02 <dauwhe> ivan: I was not part of this discussion
15:10:12 <dauwhe> ... what is the problem with the attribute? Why is it questioned?
15:10:13 <tmichel> present+ thierry
15:11:08 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: when you are talking about offline reading, having an attribute referencing content that's not packaged is a concern
15:11:15 <ivan> q+
15:11:20 <dauwhe> ... is it worth addressing? We think so.
15:11:21 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:11:49 <dauwhe> ivan: one thing we want to achieve is making offline/online distinction secondary
15:11:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:12:04 <dauwhe> ... content may be offline now, but may be online in two hours or two minutes
15:12:22 <dkaplan3> q+
15:12:24 <tzviya> ack bill
15:12:41 <clapierre1> q+
15:12:41 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that reinforces argument that we need both
15:13:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have lots to do
15:13:06 <tzviya> ack dkap
15:13:16 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: a good thing from dpub would be
15:14:07 <dauwhe> ... use cases showing how these descriptions are really big or really frequent
15:14:12 <tzviya> ack ch
15:14:18 <tzviya> ack cl
15:14:19 <dauwhe> ... and so they do need to be linked from somewhere else
15:14:21 <tmichel> rrsagaent, draft minutes
15:14:30 <dauwhe> clapierre1: longdesc is not an a11y attribute, aria is
15:14:33 <tmichel>  rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
15:14:56 <dauwhe> ... because it's an a11y attribute, it should be something else, so it can be used for anything
15:15:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: next steps for this group
15:15:28 <dauwhe> ... dkapan3, could you write up a few sentences to send to Rich and friends
15:15:39 <dauwhe> ... it's important, we may not be able to embrace immediately, but we're coming
15:15:47 <dauwhe> ivan: I can read it
15:16:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is where our role as liason to BISG would come in
15:16:14 <dauwhe> Julie: we can also mention that in a bulletin
15:16:28 <pkra> stem
15:16:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: as soon as I find the agenda I'll talk about what's next
15:16:45 <ivan> Topic: STEM Survey
15:16:55 <dauwhe> pkra: update
15:17:00 <dauwhe> ... we're still working on survey
15:17:03 <dauwhe> ... making progress
15:17:12 <dauwhe> ... some tech difficulties which have been resolved
15:17:19 <dauwhe> ... vacations have been resolved ;)
15:17:39 <tzviya> q?
15:17:45 <dauwhe> ... we had summary from w3c form system
15:17:54 <dauwhe> ... generated the source data
15:18:03 <dauwhe> ... Nick pushed it into an SQL database so we could query
15:18:20 <ayla_stein> fire alarm, have to leave
15:18:26 <dauwhe> ... we have this database, and tim has explored
15:18:40 <dauwhe> ... can get advanced slices of data
15:18:57 <dauwhe> ... now we can slice up data based on background of respondents
15:19:01 <TimCole> I am on the call.
15:19:37 <dauwhe> ... people who are publishers point to lack of w3c standards
15:19:43 <dauwhe> ... but authors didn't mention this
15:19:48 <dauwhe> ... so we get useful information
15:19:51 <dauwhe> ... next steps?
15:19:57 <dauwhe> ... planning a meeting of task force soon
15:20:12 <dauwhe> ... jump right in to writing the note
15:20:19 <dauwhe> ... based on survey structure
15:20:29 <dauwhe> ... and we can create better queries
15:20:52 <dauwhe> ... the more you look at survey the more it becomes clear it's limited in it's usefulness
15:21:00 <dauwhe> ... not a representative sample
15:21:21 <dauwhe> ... 2nd problem is responses have limited quality
15:21:28 <dauwhe> ... which is the fault of the survey
15:21:50 <dauwhe> ... there aren't actually many obvious patterns
15:21:58 <dauwhe> ... which could further the work of task force
15:22:10 <dauwhe> ... people are unhappy with lack of MathML support in browsers
15:22:14 <dauwhe> ... but this is not a surprise
15:22:15 <tzviya> q+
15:22:26 <dauwhe> ... we will see some interesting snippets
15:22:34 <dauwhe> ... we're working on it, we're making progress
15:22:42 <dauwhe> ... the bigger question is what we can do next
15:23:02 <dauwhe> ... the survey has not been super-helpful
15:23:20 <dauwhe> ... I now have more ideas on MathML
15:23:35 <Karen> q+
15:24:01 <tzviya> ack kar
15:24:44 <dauwhe> Karen: what kind of people do we want on this task force, and what deliverables are short and long term possibilities?
15:24:50 <dauwhe> ... what are we inviting them to work on?
15:24:51 <TimCole> q+
15:25:04 <dauwhe> ... that's a q for peter and wider group
15:25:10 <ivan> q+
15:25:13 <dauwhe> pkra: work on whatever they work on, which may sound ridiculous
15:25:27 <dauwhe> ... we have the example of chemistry where there's a strong xml standard
15:25:35 <dauwhe> ... but there's nothting that ties into w3c work
15:25:46 <dauwhe> ... we need to find people to bring the right kind of abilities
15:25:52 <dauwhe> ... and here I'm not the expert
15:26:03 <dauwhe> tzviya: we've had more feedback on workflow than tech issues
15:26:10 <dauwhe> ... people hack it
15:26:26 <dauwhe> ... chemistry, physics, any sciences
15:26:40 <tzviya> ack tzv
15:26:42 <pkra> q+
15:26:48 <dauwhe> ... we don't want to create work for ourselves
15:26:54 <tzviya> ack Tim
15:26:59 <dauwhe> ... if it's not immediate we have enough to do
15:27:49 <dauwhe> TimCole: we need to do human reading of data
15:28:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tim
15:28:03 <dauwhe> ... and come up with more succinct survey, that could be filled out by larger group
15:28:19 <Karen> +1 focused quantitative survey built on top of qualitative work Peter did
15:28:24 <dauwhe> ... many answers said, "we should have asked this"
15:28:52 <dauwhe> ... interesting dicotomies
15:29:13 <dauwhe> ... particular content types could benefit from standardization, but list was divergent
15:29:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:29:50 <dauwhe> ivan: putting on my w3c hat
15:29:56 <dauwhe> ... an interesting question would be
15:30:18 <dauwhe> ... are there formats like mathml that need standardization
15:30:23 <dauwhe> ... and can be done at w3c
15:30:34 <dauwhe> ... this kind of input would be useful
15:30:50 <dauwhe> ... there are a number of formats out there that are created for different purposes
15:31:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Re Ivan's question, I'd suggest chemistry and 3D
15:31:03 <dauwhe> ... do we know what they are, how mature, do they need a home?
15:31:14 <dauwhe> ... chemistry, 3d, probably others
15:31:39 <dauwhe> ... I told you about doug and I brining in musicML
15:31:52 <dauwhe> s/brining/bringing/
15:32:01 <tzviya> ack pk
15:32:07 <dauwhe> ... knowing about the needs would be valuable for w3c management
15:32:27 <dauwhe> pkra: another example
15:32:49 <dauwhe> ... the jupiter notebook format, a computational document format
15:33:00 <dauwhe> ... there's an opportunity, but it's very early on
15:33:14 <dauwhe> ... both the iPython people and publishers see that this could be standardized
15:33:17 <dauwhe> ... but it's too soon
15:33:31 <dauwhe> ... i don't know which of these things fit well with mission of w3c
15:33:38 <dauwhe> ... it's very application specific right now
15:33:48 <dauwhe> ... but could be more general purpose in 3 or 5 or ten years
15:33:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> One way to pose the question to publishers would be "what formats would it be useful for browsers to natively understand?"
15:33:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have full agenda
15:34:13 <dauwhe> ... it's a work in progress, we'll know more in a few weeks, and task force will be drafting a note
15:34:21 <dauwhe> ... sounds like you need more human-power
15:34:43 <dauwhe> pkra: we have enough people but not enough time
15:35:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we'll takl about timelines. when do you expect draft will get started
15:35:14 <dauwhe> pkra: will be started at next TF meeting, this week or next week
15:35:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have timeline in our charter
15:35:27 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about timelines offline
15:35:35 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/mathmlpas.html
15:35:46 <dauwhe> tzviya: Karen emailed about ISO standardization of MathML and how they need support statements
15:35:55 <pkra> +1
15:35:59 <dauwhe> Karen: send them to me. Quote, org name, attribution, title
15:36:06 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
15:36:11 <ivan> Topic: DPUB-ARIA
15:36:12 <dauwhe> tzviya: the digital publishing module of ARIA
15:36:37 <dauwhe> ... biggest change is a note
15:37:10 <dauwhe> ... mentioning that we're formally requesting feedback from publishing, and specifically IDPF
15:37:31 <dauwhe> ... "don't use this until we resolve confusion w/ EPUB structural semantics vocab"
15:37:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: you got it all
15:37:50 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0075.html
15:37:52 <ivan> Topic: CSS Priority Use case
15:37:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: some additions to css priorities use cases on cjk
15:38:27 <dauwhe> murakami: I received a comment from chinese layout task force
15:39:03 <dauwhe> ... bopomofo is listed ???
15:39:09 <murakami> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ruby-1/#valdef-ruby-position-inter-character
15:40:04 <ivan> q+
15:40:09 <dauwhe> murakami: bopomofo should be listed in CSS priority list
15:40:23 <tzviya> marakami: chinese layout TF said bopofomo should be listed in these requirements
15:40:32 <dauwhe> ... Chinese needs this
15:40:37 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:40:42 <dauwhe> ivan: two things
15:40:57 <dauwhe> ... Bobby told us about this before, it's important for traditional chinese
15:41:13 <dauwhe> ... my problem is not with what murakami added
15:41:21 <dauwhe> ... we know that css modules do deal with ruby
15:41:30 <dauwhe> ... also try to take care of bopomofo
15:41:34 <dauwhe> ... we know that's happening
15:41:45 <dauwhe> ... but what are things that are needed but are not happening in CSS
15:42:18 <dauwhe> ... how to distinguish between what's important but being taken care of
15:42:25 <dauwhe> ... and what isn't being taken care of
15:42:27 <tzviya> q?
15:42:32 <dauwhe> ... we need priorities here
15:42:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: murakami, can you take care of that?
15:42:56 <dauwhe> murakami: yes
15:43:02 <dauwhe> ... i have to find the priority
15:44:01 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community#CJK
15:44:24 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html
15:44:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: with fifteen minutes left, we get to today's discussion topic
15:44:41 <dauwhe> ... talking about packages and how to identify them
15:44:58 <dauwhe> ... at F2F we talked about packages, fragment identifiers, and primary identifiers
15:45:04 <dauwhe> ... and whether we need a package
15:45:13 <dauwhe> ... I'll turn it over to markus and ivan
15:45:32 <dauwhe> mgylling: ivan, can you give us a summary?
15:45:43 <dauwhe> ivan: i can try
15:45:56 <dauwhe> ... we discussed at F2F and later
15:46:04 <dauwhe> ... whether we need packaging, what format, etc
15:46:13 <dauwhe> ... and we talked about identification of package
15:46:21 <dauwhe> ... on the mailing list we had vague conclusion
15:46:32 <dauwhe> ... what we need is an abstract concept
15:46:41 <dauwhe> ... i don't want to use the word package
15:47:03 <dauwhe> ... a web document which is not the same as a web page
15:47:17 <dauwhe> ... which contains all the dependencies in one place
15:47:27 <dauwhe> ... along with pages that are logically included
15:47:37 <dauwhe> ... if it's offline it's in a package
15:47:46 <dauwhe> ... if it's online there's no real term
15:47:56 <dauwhe> ... bill was pushing for word publication
15:48:05 <dauwhe> ... more a conceptual thing than technical thing
15:48:12 <dauwhe> ... helps keep our mind focused
15:48:20 <dauwhe> ... can be tightly bound to web manifest
15:48:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> A publication can contain many documents, and it can be packaged or not packaged.
15:48:27 <tzviya> +1
15:48:31 <dauwhe> ... which is equiv of package file in epub
15:48:45 <tzviya> +1 to web manifest. that is
15:48:49 <dauwhe> ... epubweb talks about these web publications which have offline and online maniftestation
15:48:57 <dauwhe> ... the whole addressing may become much easier
15:49:06 <dauwhe> ... because it's closely bound to what happens online
15:49:14 <dauwhe> ... maybe we don't need anything special
15:49:24 <dauwhe> ... but we need to address all media and fragments in media
15:49:32 <mgylling> q+
15:49:33 <dauwhe> ... bill and markus?
15:49:39 <tzviya> ack mg
15:49:47 <dauwhe> mgylling: I'm happy to take over the mumbling
15:50:13 <dauwhe> ... the core issue is that addressing a publication with a primary identifier should be transparent to online/offline status
15:50:20 <dauwhe> ... the mechanism has to be the same
15:50:39 <dauwhe> ... you touched upon it, it might not be that difficult
15:50:48 <dauwhe> ... let the online version be canonical
15:50:55 <dauwhe> ... so when a publiscation goes offline
15:51:05 <dauwhe> ... all it needs to do is carry with it that original url
15:51:12 <tzviya> s/publiscation/publication
15:51:14 <dauwhe> ... so incoming references can be dealt with
15:51:20 <dauwhe> ... in short, one can say
15:51:36 <dauwhe> ... either pub lives at url or it doesn't, but it has that URL as it's most basic identifier
15:51:54 <dauwhe> ... this wouldn't prevent at all the more luxurious things like DOI
15:52:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:52:06 <tzviya> ack bill
15:52:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: speaking as one who is participating in a sickening number of groups on identifiers
15:52:26 <dauwhe> ... i like this approach
15:52:32 <dauwhe> ... becasue it's identifier-agnostic
15:52:42 <dauwhe> ... if we try to mandate something, it won't fly
15:52:57 <dauwhe> ... book industry has a problem 'cause of no work identifier
15:53:04 <dauwhe> ... it simplifies whole thing
15:53:15 <ivan> q+
15:53:21 <dauwhe> ... express the url however you want, here's how you handle it when publication goes offline
15:53:30 <dauwhe> ... but use whatever identifier you want in the url
15:53:39 <tzviya> ack iv
15:53:41 <dauwhe> ... the simplicity is powerful and practical
15:53:50 <dauwhe> ivan: continuing what you said
15:54:01 <dauwhe> ... what you have here is an operational description
15:54:10 <dauwhe> ... an identifier points to something on the web
15:54:27 <dauwhe> ... if I make a GET request what I get is either a package or a specialized web manifest
15:54:46 <dauwhe> ... in a future architecture, when I get a package it will be handled by service workers
15:54:54 <dauwhe> ... so what's important is the manifest
15:55:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> Also +1 to web manifest
15:55:17 <dauwhe> ... the internals of the package falls back to what is usual ...
15:55:29 <tzviya> q?
15:55:56 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't know if the fragments per se need to be dealt with for publications
15:56:19 <dauwhe> ... we just need to deal with the various media types
15:56:27 <dauwhe> ... we should NOT define our own fragment identifiers
15:56:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:56:46 <shepazu> q+
15:56:48 <dauwhe> ... what we should do is work out some examples of what happens in various situations
15:57:02 <dauwhe> ... and how the procedures, the http protocols work, when a publication is here or there
15:57:14 <dauwhe> ... and how it's done in internal vs external reference
15:57:18 <tzviya> ack sh
15:57:22 <dauwhe> ... we should go through these exercises
15:57:37 <dauwhe> shepazu: the notion of anchoring is taken up by web annotations WG
15:57:59 <dauwhe> ... with notion of rangefinder API; a fpwd will be published in next few weeks
15:58:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: cool
15:58:28 <dauwhe> ... the idea of using any fragment id is nice and flexible, it loses some of the things we're striving for
15:58:34 <dauwhe> ... the degradation of URLs with citations
15:58:42 <dauwhe> ... if annotations support that we're good
15:58:56 <dauwhe> ... we want to make sure all the things we talked about in epubweb are supported
15:59:05 <dauwhe> ivan: we need to work out some scenarios
15:59:09 <tzviya> q?
15:59:18 <dauwhe> ... how would these things works, where are those devils who are in the details
15:59:33 <dauwhe> ... but we have a whole new charter to tell us how to do this :)
15:59:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: any more comments?
15:59:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks everyone
16:01:35 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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