IRC log of dpub on 2015-06-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:01 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:03:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:03:03 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be dpub
14:03:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes
14:03:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:03:06 [trackbot]
Date: 15 June 2015
14:03:22 [ivan]
14:03:26 [ivan]
chair: Markus
14:03:38 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda:
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14:53:35 [mgylling]
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14:55:12 [ivan]
Regrets: Luc_Audrain
14:55:22 [ivan]
Regrets+ Phil_Madans
14:55:30 [ivan]
Regrets: Bill_Kasdorf
14:56:07 [ivan]
Regrets: Luc_Audrain, Phil_Madans, Bill_Kasdorf, Ayla_Stein
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14:56:31 [brady_duga]
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14:56:50 [dauwhe]
Present+ Dave_Cramer
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14:57:35 [tmichel]
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14:57:56 [mgylling]
Present+ mgylling
14:58:06 [ivan]
Present+ Ivan_Herman
14:58:20 [mgylling]
Regrets+ Heather
14:58:48 [Julie_Morris]
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14:58:52 [astearns]
Present+ astearns
14:59:15 [Ralph]
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present+ RalphSwick
14:59:28 [kwkbtr]
present+ Toru_Kawakubo
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present+ duga
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15:01:38 [tmichel]
Present+ Thierry Michel
15:01:57 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
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15:02:14 [dauwhe]
mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
15:02:17 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya_Siegman
15:02:20 [dauwhe]
... any comments or objections?
15:02:27 [dauwhe]
... minutes approved.
15:02:37 [dauwhe]
... some administrivia:
15:02:48 [dauwhe]
... update on status of charter renewal
15:02:51 [ivan]
Topic: Charter renewal update
15:02:53 [LFowler]
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15:03:17 [dauwhe]
ivan: ten days ago, the charter has been announced unofficially
15:03:24 [ivan]
-> Unofficail announcement
15:03:28 [dauwhe]
[furious typing]
15:03:36 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:03:43 [Zakim]
15:03:45 [dauwhe]
... not yet a formal vote; hoping for replies and comments
15:03:47 [ivan]
15:03:52 [Zakim]
15:03:54 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
15:03:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were lfowler
15:04:04 [dauwhe]
... we have one comment so far, from clapierre
15:04:14 [dauwhe]
... we like that comment
15:04:28 [dauwhe]
... Last Friday, I began to contact people in browser community
15:04:37 [dauwhe]
... to get comments from that corner, no results yet.
15:04:54 [dauwhe]
... important for all of us in member companies to give comments
15:05:05 [dauwhe]
... tell us where we're wrong, if things should be different
15:05:11 [dauwhe]
... and positive comments are good, too
15:05:22 [dauwhe]
... I don't know when we go for formal AC vote
15:05:33 [dauwhe]
... we should probably wait for some comments
15:05:42 [dauwhe]
... Does Ralph have anything to add?
15:05:45 [dauwhe]
Ralph: Nope.
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15:06:05 [dauwhe]
mgylling: is the absence of comments a problem?
15:06:09 [dauwhe]
ivan: at this stage, no
15:06:13 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:06:15 [dauwhe]
... when we get to the formal vote
15:06:40 [dauwhe]
... then we need 5% of the membership, which is 19 members, need to approve
15:06:56 [dauwhe]
... if we don't get the five percent, then we have unpleasant discussions with management
15:07:24 [dauwhe]
mgylling: for those of us who are not AC reps, we have been given work: nudge our AC rep into making comments on the draft
15:07:38 [dauwhe]
... what really matters is being able to rally votes when it counts.
15:07:55 [dauwhe]
ivan: mid-July, probably
15:08:01 [dauwhe]
Ralph: that could be realistic
15:08:12 [dauwhe]
mgylling: the time of year when people are hardest to rally
15:08:23 [dauwhe]
ivan: we could have a longer voting period
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15:09:02 [dauwhe]
???: we need comments now; so we can change things
15:09:13 [ivan]
15:09:15 [dauwhe]
... in later stages, we don't want to change
15:09:24 [dauwhe]
mgylling: moving on
15:09:27 [ivan]
Topic: TPAC
15:09:53 [dauwhe]
mgylling: time to register for TPAC
15:10:10 [dauwhe]
... registering early makes w3c staff happy
15:10:34 [dauwhe]
... we do yet know how many IG members will be there
15:11:12 [clapierre]
15:11:16 [brady_duga]
15:11:20 [brady_duga]
15:11:30 [mgylling]
ack brady
15:11:33 [ivan]
ack brady_duga
15:11:40 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: I'm coming, but only for this meeting
15:11:48 [dauwhe]
... if it's not going to happen I'd need to know
15:12:04 [dauwhe]
ivan: anyone who's sure now should register
15:12:23 [dauwhe]
mgylling: anyone sure they won't be going
15:12:54 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we did do a survey before we filled out room request
15:13:02 [dauwhe]
... lots of people said they were coming
15:13:22 [ivan]
15:13:26 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:13:39 [dauwhe]
ivan: we should set up the F2F wiki page now
15:13:53 [dauwhe]
mgylling: who sets up the wiki?
15:13:56 [dauwhe]
ivan: any of us
15:14:14 [dauwhe]
mgylling: any questions or remarks about tpac?
15:14:15 [tmichel]
I will set the wiki registration page for DPUB
15:14:20 [NickRuffilo]
scribenick: NickRuffilo
15:14:52 [NickRuffilo]
"One thing we forgot to put on is a summer Hiatus or Summer Break. We did this last summer - not meeting in July. The question we have is whether we would want to do the same thing this year?"
15:14:54 [NickRuffilo]
15:15:01 [mgylling]
ack Nick
15:15:03 [ivan]
Topic: Summear break
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15:15:40 [dauwhe]
15:15:49 [mgylling]
ack dauwhe
15:15:52 [NickRuffilo]
nick: "I'll be poking people to get articles to create a backlog"
15:16:10 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "Lets just cancel individual meeting if we get enough regrets? It seems like we have important things - charter, epub web, etc"
15:16:19 [Karen_]
+1 keep going and cancel ad hoc
15:16:48 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "I think we should keep it going. Unless we get regrets."
15:16:58 [NickRuffilo]
15:18:14 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "For next week, we'd like to get going again on topics that have been discussed on the list requiring publication identification. The problem of resource collection on the web. It's Bill K's topic, but he's not here. We'll go into it more next week and try to get more continuity. Let's define what is actually needed to establish basic identities and unpackaged identities. "
15:18:27 [ivan]
15:18:53 [NickRuffilo]
ACTUAL Ivan: "We've had all sorts of discussions via email, which is a good starting point."
15:19:01 [ivan]
Topic: CSS needs
15:19:14 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "on to today's main topic: There is a misconception floating around. Ivan, can you repeat?"
15:20:18 [dauwhe]
Here's the start of a list:
15:20:25 [mgylling]
15:20:28 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "The observation goes that somehow there were people with the impression that there are no open issues for CSS features needed by this community. To be self-critical, we have not publishes very often any documents on this. That is why we thought to have this topic - to have a better view of what else, beyond pagination, are the things that CSS should provide, but does not. We all know
15:20:28 [NickRuffilo]
Pagination is a major issue, but what else is there?"
15:21:13 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "I would mention that I only started the WIKI page this morning, and I included pagination, even though it didn't seem necessary. I tried to categorize things logically. Foundations, typography,..."
15:21:28 [ivan]
15:22:06 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "I'm not quite sure how we'd want to discuss this: One sad observation is that many of the things mentioned here have been in CSS drafts (and some were removed - due to at risk from no implementations)"
15:22:09 [mgylling]
15:22:09 [astearns]
15:22:12 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:22:24 [tzviya]
15:23:24 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "Looking at the list - there is a reference here on GRID. The way I understand it is that there are loads of modules in CSS3. I don't see from this list a kind of categorization - something saying 'this is what we need, but it's not a standard' or 'it's not what we need and here's where' or 'this is almost what we need but here's what's different'. In terms of functionality as well as
15:23:24 [NickRuffilo]
evolution in the working group life. "
15:23:51 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "Agreed. There are some things that the spec is nice, but it hasn't been implemented. Some things that aren't fully there yet, some things that haven't been spec'd at all..."
15:24:22 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "For each bullet item we need to add the grid of where things are."
15:25:19 [mgylling]
15:25:23 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "Your typography section sits well with me because it describes things from a publisher's perspective which is very important. When you say in pagination 'GCPM' what does that mean? Everything in GCPM? If we could have the first column similar to what you have in typography, that would be a great short-description of what a publisher might need."
15:25:23 [mgylling]
ack astearns
15:25:44 [astearns]
sorry - can't seem to get it to work
15:25:49 [mgylling]
ack tzviua
15:25:55 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:26:58 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "GCPM handles cross-reference, but it hasn't been implemented by the browser."
15:27:29 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "It's great that certain things exists in the spec, but if it hasn't been implemented, then it's important to elevate it to Houdini or something else to ensure that it is handled."
15:27:30 [mgylling]
15:28:33 [mgylling]
ack astearns
15:28:34 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "As a side-note, we need to keep in mind the potential accessibility repurcussions. There is a potential accessibility hazard there. I believe that WPIC 2 says that we shouldn't be using this for things beyond decoration."
15:28:48 [tzviya]
15:29:03 [liam]
[wcag restriction on generated content may also come from issue of fallback for when there's no CSS]
15:29:04 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "The main accessability issue is that there are bugs where content may not be selectable. That might be something to add to this list - is better generated content for accessibility/implementation."
15:29:44 [NickRuffilo]
Alan: "Initial intent was decoration, but it's now used for content as well, as content is used as a decoration and not actual content."
15:31:47 [NickRuffilo]
Alan: "I agree that we need to have an evalution of all these things. Where are they - are they usable? I am a bit too close to give things a realistic view. And there are some issues in translation - typographical features that work great for fixed layout (printing) but when we add them to the web, which is reflowable, where quite a lot more needs to be automated by the browser. So much is
15:31:47 [NickRuffilo]
done by hand. There is something in the CSS-line that defines how the boxes get put into the grid - it's something publishing does by hand. While the first section of the LINEGRID module is good, the 2nd section isn't there yet."
15:31:54 [mgylling]
15:32:23 [NickRuffilo]
...: "We should also be able to access alternate glyphs. I'm not sure there is a good way of doing that on the web. "
15:32:39 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "Prints do have extensions that do that - although they may not be useful..."
15:33:04 [tzviya]
15:33:24 [ivan]
15:34:09 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "In terms of appending to this table - there are quite a few of us, that would want to add their favorite missing features into the table. I would like to announce and open period of time where we should invade Dave's work. And add anything - it's OK if it is incomplete, we can work to fill it in. We haven't talked about prioritization - but that tends to be quite messy. Let us wait
15:34:09 [NickRuffilo]
until the table starts to mature then we can determine the best way."
15:34:10 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:34:11 [ivan]
ack ivan
15:34:44 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "I was wondering - how to start doing that - to help out dave. "
15:35:07 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "it would help to get more things for the list. Collecting ideas is the hard part."
15:35:21 [ivan]
15:35:32 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:36:14 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "I have specific questions - what I don't see here is about control over fonts - in some sense, what alan was referring to. Are the features to control fonts and how fonts are used - are they already satisfactory for this community?
15:37:02 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "Maybe vlad is in position."
15:37:12 [tzviya]
15:37:29 [astearns]
need wider implementation of: font-feature-settings, subsetting, font loading events...
15:37:51 [liam]
+1 to lack of access to actual stylistic variant fonts
15:37:56 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "I know that I've run into CSS's classification of font properties - does not come close to covering the range of features that existing fonts have. One example is Adobe has many optical weights (captions, subheads) which CSS has no notion of that"
15:38:03 [mgylling]
15:38:07 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:38:29 [NickRuffilo]
dave: "some font familys have 160 different fonts to the family. CSS is not up to that challenge."
15:38:35 [mgylling]
q+ to not forget to mention CJK
15:38:47 [NickRuffilo]
dave: "8 or nine wieghts, optical properties, so-on-and-so-forth."
15:38:51 [ivan]
15:39:12 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "By linking to the existing modules that are relevant, you've pretty much covered all of our priorities?"
15:39:21 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "yes, it needs to be done at a more gradual level."
15:39:36 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "We should be noting atomic uses, not just high-level."
15:39:52 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "Homework is to go through the modules and say: 'we need this' etc"
15:39:54 [mgylling]
15:39:58 [mgylling]
ack mgylling
15:39:58 [Zakim]
mgylling, you wanted to not forget to mention CJK
15:41:29 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "One thing we owe it to China/Japan/Korea to do is to get something well versed in their typographical needs, to add whatever is needed there. Now that we have atenna house in the IG, that shouldn't be a problem, but it strikes me that what we have in the epub3 CSS profile is a number of vendor-prefix properties built on top of CSS context. All of these things are used for all epubs in
15:41:29 [NickRuffilo]
those regions, and they represent items that are missing from CSS. We can go through that list and pick out features that aren't supported as of yet."
15:41:48 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "Such as vertical centering, Who from antenna house is on the call today? "
15:42:15 [NickRuffilo]
Mike Miller: "I'll pass this information on"
15:42:29 [mgylling]
15:42:32 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "We really need a good list of features from a japanese point of view."
15:42:34 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:43:16 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "A similar question for fonts - Are publishers happy with the control of Color? It's improved with HSL and the A parameter - which is great compared to old CSS. Maybe alan knows - is it possible to express very precise colors?"
15:43:17 [NickRuffilo]
15:43:28 [NickRuffilo]
ivan: "If not, is it something publishers need?"
15:43:39 [mgylling]
15:44:26 [NickRuffilo]
tzviya: "anyone familiar with HSBA or RGBA likes it more than CMYK
15:44:38 [ivan]
15:44:53 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "The question - is what is in CSS satisfactory or not?"
15:45:22 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "I would need to research, but any issues ... i see where you're going... It has more to do with screens."
15:45:36 [NickRuffilo]
15:46:12 [Ralph]
Nick: @@
15:46:13 [NickRuffilo]
"Crappy monitors means crappy interpretation"
15:46:22 [mgylling]
ack Nick
15:46:26 [tzviya]
15:47:39 [NickRuffilo]
Nick: "Screens are limitors - CSS colors are fine."
15:48:14 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "The group wants to contribute to the group's page. Mike is going to get Antenna house to note on the items related to japanese. We should reach out to other locals. "
15:48:16 [NickRuffilo]
15:48:45 [NickRuffilo]
markus: "Tzviya, sounded like you're gearing up to add other things."
15:49:26 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "I'm also wondering if - one possibility - is to keep the wiki page in a "listy-texty" format so that we do tables elsewhere - on Github or something. Wiki tables - especially complicated - are going to be difficult..."
15:49:53 [NickRuffilo]
15:50:34 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "If you put a table on the same level - it creates a table.html..."
15:50:44 [NickRuffilo]
markus: "contributors still use the wiki?"
15:51:03 [NickRuffilo]
...: "Do we just have suggestions on the wiki? Or everyone hooking up to GIThub?"
15:51:24 [NickRuffilo]
DavE: "We'll get more input if we don't require the use of github. I offer to anyone, if you want to make changes to a github doc - contact me or Ivan."
15:51:41 [mgylling]
15:51:44 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "use the wiki as the funnel. People who are comfortable with the github can use it."
15:51:45 [mgylling]
ack Nick
15:52:06 [ivan]
15:53:11 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "CSS tends to take alot of notice on the issues of languages, JL req, and various other scripts. In some sense, we're not the experts on those languages."
15:53:11 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:53:58 [tzviya]
s/alot/a lot
15:54:13 [NickRuffilo]
Nick: "Possibly use GoogleDocs spreadsheets for the giant table"
15:54:20 [astearns]
is table sorting a publishing need?
15:54:37 [clapierre]
Google Docs is good although it isn't yet 100% accessible
15:55:08 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "Probably, we should look at what the other groups are doing for the other languages/scripts, which have direct channels to the CSS working group. We may not want to duplicate work."
15:55:23 [NickRuffilo]
Ivan: "As for googledoc, we may not want to introduce more efforts"
15:55:48 [mgylling]
15:56:23 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "One final question - Explain to me how this work relates to LatinREQ. And tell me how there will not be duplication of intent and LatinREQ."
15:56:37 [astearns]
this is input to LatinReq
15:57:05 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "IN some cases the motivation for this effort is communication with W3C. From the email i was getting from Ivan, this is more helping W3C management with Priorities."
15:57:19 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "Exactly. Just making sure there is no duplication."
15:57:57 [tzviya]
15:58:26 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:58:31 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "I like alan's comments - this could be INPUT to Latin REQ. LatinREQ has been agnostic in how these features have been implemented. "This is how things are" and less 'CSS can do THIS but not THAT. Does LatinREQ goes in a direction where it calls out what is possible and suggest new CSS features? We don't go into any detail in the table either. "
15:59:01 [NickRuffilo]
Tzviya: "I wanted to add that this is the executive summary. LatinREQ is intentionally detailed. 'We know it exists, but it doesn't work in the real world' so it becomes more of a call to action."
15:59:08 [mgylling]
15:59:22 [NickRuffilo]
Dave: "Just don't make us implement this as annotations to LatinREQ"
15:59:56 [NickRuffilo]
Markus: "We're at the end. Thank you all, please help the group out in filling the WIKI page with missing CSS features. Keep in mind that we plan for next week - publication identification and resource identification on the web."
16:00:17 [clapierre]
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16:00:48 [tmichel]
rrsagent,draft minutes
16:00:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
16:01:13 [liam]
present+ liam
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