00:01:26 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:01:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-webapps-irc 00:01:41 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 00:01:50 zakim, who is on the phone? 00:01:50 On the phone I see [Microsoft] 00:01:59 zakim, [Microsoft] is me 00:01:59 +Travis; got it 00:02:08 Present+ Travis_Leithead 00:02:29 Topic: UI Events teleconference 00:02:56 Travis: Hello. 00:03:09 Hi! Welcome. Glad you got the right time. 00:03:13 Calling in? 00:05:18 + +1.425.936.aaaa 00:05:33 garykac has joined #webapps 00:05:47 zakim, +1.425 is garykac 00:05:47 +garykac; got it 00:05:55 Present+ garykac 00:06:00 Present+ masayuki 00:06:15 Agenda building time? 00:06:48 a+ Time to talk about the bug 00:06:55 agenda+ Time to talk about the bug 00:06:55 We're in a new repo now 00:07:10 agenda+ working in githum? 00:07:12 which means that I have to set that up... 00:07:14 :-( 00:07:34 agenda+ "issues" vs. "bugs" 00:08:55 agenda+ schedule for next milestone? 00:10:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=UI%20Events&product=WebAppsWG&resolution=--- 00:10:56 agenda? 00:11:20 zakim, drop agenda item 2 00:11:20 I don't understand 'drop agenda item 2', Travis 00:12:43 The spec is now here: https://w3c.github.io/uievents/ 00:12:56 Repo is here: https://github.com/w3c/uievents 00:13:16 Two issues: https://github.com/w3c/uievents/issues 00:14:56 ... (looking things over) 00:15:11 agenda- 00:16:43 agenda- 1 00:17:09 Are there any high-priority bugs to address first? 00:17:15 ... e.g., can we prioritize our list? 00:18:00 In my work, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21120 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26218 are important. 00:18:45 But it's okay not today because I work on others right now. 00:19:47 masayuki: super. 00:20:17 I hope that you guys check them when you have much time ;-) 00:22:38 Did either of you see the InputDevice API "sketch" proposal that was sent out? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2015JanMar/0102.html 00:23:49 This is relevant to some discussions that we've had regarding the keyboard layout and current locale. 00:24:12 If that proposal gains traction, it seems like the most appropriate place for that sort of info. 00:26:07 I didn't. 00:26:14 ... In looking at this, seems interesting. 00:26:29 masayuki: we're trying to get back into it... it's been a while... 00:27:39 I'm thinking of asking us to do something crazy... 00:27:55 ... how about we stop focusing on editing the spec... 00:28:15 ... and instead start focusing on writing the tests that we'll need. 00:29:36 I agree. 00:29:49 The parts in the spec that we need to work on fall into two main categories: 00:29:51 ... It will help us inform the final content of the spec anyway... 00:30:12 (1) easy bugs (like assigning a name to a special key) 00:30:36 (2) re-write bugs - as in please specify the interactions in more detail 00:30:59 #2 will require that we write tests as we document the current interactions. 00:31:38 Anything that we document will prompt the question: do the current browsers agree with the description. To answer this, we'll need these tests. 00:31:42 Those interactions have changed a little in Microsoft's new browser. Hopefully in favor of stronger interop. 00:31:47 My confusion with the tests in the past is that: 00:32:09 (1) they seemed to exist in multiple places (and I didn't know which ones were the most recent/most valid) 00:32:37 (2) I wasn't sure what the best format was for the tests so that they would be most useful to all the browser vendors 00:32:39 I think we are the owners/gatekeepers of the tests (at least insofar as they apply to our spec), so we should dive in to see what we want to keep, what to toss out, etc. 00:32:56 I recall that someone was spearheading a big test push in w3c, but I don't recall the details 00:34:59 ... I just looked it up, it was Tobie back in 2013: http://www.w3.org/blog/2013/02/testing-the-open-web-platform/ 00:35:13 I don't know what came out of that or what was decided 00:35:36 If there are current W3C best-practices, we need to know what they are 00:37:04 The resource I use is http://testthewebforward.org/ 00:37:19 That site has the best-practices, etc. 00:38:25 agenda? 00:38:40 move to agendum 2 00:40:59 The mirror of the test suite is: http://w3c-test.org/ 00:42:25 garykac: wondering if we can sit-down and run through this? 00:42:26 http://w3c-test.org/dom/events/Event-constants.html 00:46:57 Re: agenda 2, I'm not sure we will have any problems working in Github, just need to start. 00:47:03 agenda- 2 00:47:54 Do we have a preference for working in Github (e.g., using their issue-tracker), or keeping in Bugzilla, or both? 00:48:27 Does the github tracker have good integration and tracking? 00:48:29 agenda- 3 00:48:54 I think since the bulk of our bugs are in bugzilla, it makes sense to keep that as our primary source. 00:48:58 I don't have strong feelings. It's nice to have it all in one location. But it's not unreasonable to have the tests tracked separately. 00:49:07 (Potentially transferring issues into bugzilla to keep it all consistent. 00:50:09 I don't mind experimenting. We can always more the issues later if needed. 00:50:40 s/more/move 00:50:41 ? 00:51:06 garykac: Which browsers should be our reference browsers? 00:52:13 Blink, Edge, Gecko, WebKit 00:53:34 Blink has diverged from Webkit in many ways, but I'm not sure if that impacts things like the events ordering 00:53:40 move to the next agendum 00:53:48 zakim,move to the next agendum 00:53:48 I don't understand 'move to the next agendum', Travis 00:54:01 agenda- 4 00:54:15 If they are too similar, then it doesn't make sense to count them as two "votes" for the common behavior. We'll have to investigate a bit and see. 00:55:04 If we're going to be focusing on testing, I'm not sure when our next milestone will be. 00:55:27 What should we plan for our next milestone? 00:55:36 garykac: My sense is we have small and large bugs. 00:55:59 ... for the spec, we should write the sections that more accurately describe how events are fired (order and interactions) 00:56:06 ... updating the format, language, etc. 00:56:17 ... that is the next big milestone to shoot for. 00:56:30 ... lots of small things in between. 00:56:59 ... I think the deviceinfo thing is a distraction for right now. 00:57:21 ... rewriting the sections and have the data to support them. 00:58:10 Should we look holistically or consider event sequences in isolation? 00:58:26 garykac: I hope some relatively small subset exists. 00:58:49 ... once we have a small sample out there, people can judge and provide feedback. 00:59:11 ... if we know now what subset we should do, we could focus on that (I'm not sure what that would be) 01:00:09 We could try starting with Focus events? 01:01:33 Perhaps we could try starting with the user actions/scenarios. 01:01:35 ? 01:01:43 garykac: Perhaps focus is a good place to start. 01:02:20 What is our plan for the next call? 01:02:31 garykac: I'm going to be gone from mid-July to mid-August. 01:02:45 I'm going to be gone for large parts of July and august also. 01:03:36 I'm not available the last weeks of June and July. 01:04:06 Proposal: we should meet in two weeks. 01:04:23 Gary and I can schedule some time out-of-band to look at testing and understand how to write it up. 01:04:43 Next meeting on the 23rd. 01:04:47 masayuki: Are you still around on the 23rd? 01:05:17 No, I cannot join the last week of this month... 01:05:52 oh, the 30th is the last week. We thought that you would be around the 23rd. 01:06:25 masayuki: Can you make the 30th? 01:06:29 Ah, sure. I meant its previous week. 01:06:35 If you can't be around the 23rd or the 30th, then maybe we should just go ahead with meeting on the 30th since that'll give more time to work on the testing items. 01:06:39 Yes, 30th is Okay. 01:07:00 Ok, to be clear, are you available for the 23rd or the 30th? 01:07:07 got it. 01:07:11 well, then. the 30th seems to work then. 01:07:58 ok. 01:08:04 unitl the 30th... 01:08:09 That's it for now. See you all on the 30th. Gary, I'll see you sooner! 01:08:11 s/unitl/until/ 01:08:43 See you, thank you. 01:08:46 bye 01:08:48 -Travis 01:08:49 -garykac 01:08:50 RWC_WAPI()8:00PM has ended 01:08:50 Attendees were Travis, +1.425.936.aaaa, garykac 01:08:57 rrsagent, please generate the minutes. 01:08:57 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please generate the minutes.', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:09:05 rrsagent, make the minutes. 01:09:05 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make the minutes.', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:09:16 zakim, make the minutes 01:09:16 I don't understand 'make the minutes', Travis 01:09:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:11:41 RRSAgent, make the minutes 01:11:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-webapps-minutes.html Travis 01:28:15 marcosc has joined #webapps 02:07:43 marcosc has joined #webapps 02:07:57 rniwa has joined #webapps 02:16:18 ArtB has joined #webapps 02:23:55 sicking has joined #webapps 02:41:30 jyasskin has joined #webapps 03:05:45 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:10:21 tantek has joined #webapps 03:25:24 jyasskin has joined #webapps 03:38:36 Zakim has left #webapps 06:28:56 Florian has joined #webapps 06:53:47 dom has joined #webapps 07:21:27 Florian has joined #webapps 07:24:02 Florian_ has joined #webapps 08:16:37 darobin has joined #webapps 08:18:36 Lachy has joined #webapps 08:47:55 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 09:52:30 ArtB has joined #webapps 09:56:31 sicking has joined #webapps 10:12:59 sicking has joined #webapps 12:13:54 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 12:39:19 sicking has joined #webapps 13:28:14 Lachy has joined #webapps 14:03:25 Lachy has joined #webapps 14:15:17 smaug has joined #webapps 14:34:10 fjh has joined #webapps 14:34:20 fjh_ has joined #webapps 14:42:14 jyasskin has joined #webapps 15:00:33 sicking has joined #webapps 15:27:46 marcosc has joined #webapps 16:01:01 tantek has joined #webapps 16:01:29 smaug has joined #webapps 16:40:06 uniqname has joined #webapps 16:44:57 Was reading up from Mozilla's "The State of Web Components" and laded on WHATWG's wiki (https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Custom_Elements#Rough_consensus) I was hoping to get some clarification on the consensus around using ES6 style classes for subclassing standard elements. Is the consensus around exclusively using ES6 style classes, or is this in addition to prototype mutation? 16:46:04 Sorry, not subclassing. registering and constructing custom elements. 16:46:49 uniqname: lazywebrequest: URL for the version of Mozilla's "The State of Web Components" that you're reading? 16:47:03 https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/06/the-state-of-web-components/?utm_source=html5weekly&utm_medium=email 16:50:01 The crux of what I'm wondering is if there is an intent to codify ES6 classes as "the" way of creating custom elements, or if a prototypal approach is style also acceptable. I know there's a lot in flux still, but was wondering if anyone has some insight into the "consensus" 16:53:29 uniqname has joined #webapps 16:55:46 consensus: there's a lot in flux still :) 16:59:09 tantek: nice :) 17:04:04 uniqname, some of the people participating in Web Components are not in this channel so my recommendation is that you ask your Qs on the public-webapps@w3.org list 17:09:28 ArtB: gracias! 17:16:53 yes, everything is still in flux. The meeting late April cut 70% of shadow DOM, and the rest 30% is still in flux 17:17:03 well, perhaps not all of it 17:17:09 event handling got simpler 17:34:40 jyasskin has joined #webapps 18:38:09 darobin has joined #webapps 18:58:44 uniqname has joined #webapps 19:21:54 Lachy has joined #webapps 19:29:52 wilsonpa_ has joined #webapps 19:56:08 uniqname has joined #webapps 20:03:14 uniqname has joined #webapps 20:05:55 Are there meeting nots for the April meeting? 20:12:02 uniqname: given that ES6 classes *are* prototypes I am not sure what your question is. 20:22:29 kawai has joined #webapps 20:30:03 fjh_ has joined #webapps 20:56:33 Lachy has joined #webapps 21:02:42 uniqname has joined #webapps 21:08:27 I think I've found the notes actually. 21:35:24 jyasskin has joined #webapps 21:53:17 uniqname has joined #webapps 21:53:38 Florian has joined #webapps 22:02:53 Florian has joined #webapps 22:05:01 uniqname has joined #webapps 22:11:16 kawai_ has joined #webapps 22:18:58 rniwa has joined #webapps 22:24:15 marcosc has joined #webapps 22:59:58 fjh has joined #webapps 23:16:54 fjh has joined #webapps 00:24:46 sicking has joined #webapps 00:32:37 rniwa has joined #webapps 00:41:13 kawai has joined #webapps 01:45:27 sicking has joined #webapps 02:16:20 jyasskin has joined #webapps 05:08:25 jyasskin has joined #webapps 05:22:41 sicking has joined #webapps 05:24:15 sicking has joined #webapps 05:33:33 sicking has joined #webapps 05:35:23 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 06:35:56 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 06:39:21 dom has joined #webapps 06:51:03 Florian has joined #webapps 06:51:42 Florian has joined #webapps 06:52:22 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 06:54:47 Florian_ has joined #webapps 06:56:26 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 06:59:03 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 07:23:54 wilsonpa_ has joined #webapps 07:35:40 sicking has joined #webapps 08:05:20 darobin has joined #webapps 08:21:50 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 08:26:34 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 08:28:56 Lachy has joined #webapps 08:32:29 sicking has joined #webapps 08:48:09 wilsonpa_ has joined #webapps 09:19:50 kawai has joined #webapps 09:26:36 Lachy has joined #webapps 09:39:42 smaug has joined #webapps 09:52:03 ArtB has joined #webapps 10:07:49 Lachy has joined #webapps 10:10:35 Lachy has joined #webapps 10:21:11 wilsonpa_ has joined #webapps 10:48:57 Lachy has joined #webapps 10:50:40 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 11:01:18 fjh has joined #webapps 11:09:37 Florian has joined #webapps 11:15:06 I got a report from a WebApps group member that the TPAC2015 registration page didn't work for him. It works ok for me. Anyone else having a problem with accessing this page? https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2015/ 11:31:34 fjh has joined #webapps 11:51:08 ArtB: I think there was a bug that was fixed earlier, could explain that 11:54:15 hi darobin, thanks for the reply. The person that reported the original problem now says the registration page works for him so we should be all good now :-) 11:54:30 good! 12:08:25 fjh has joined #webapps 12:08:35 Florian has joined #webapps 12:17:52 plh has joined #webapps 12:18:03 plh, thanks for processing Florian's IE app! 12:18:08 my pleasure 12:18:17 plh, ArtB: Thank you both 12:18:57 Florian, perhaps you could send a very short note to p-webapps stating this `change of status`? 12:19:27 (I can announce that too, if you prefer) 12:19:50 Whichever is customary in the webapps working group 12:20:02 I guess I should join the member only ml as well 12:20:19 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 12:20:39 when someone joins WebApps, I always send them a private e-mail (cc'ing w3c-archive) and ask them to send a short intro to the list 12:20:52 we don't have very many IEs so there is no precedence per se 12:22:31 Florian, my expectation is that upon being accepted as IE for WebApps, that you would be automagically subscribed to member-webapps. PLH, can you please confirm if this happens or not? 12:23:16 I'll write a short intro, please send me the mail with cc to w3c-archive, so that we have in on record. 12:23:52 ArtArtB< I don't know to be honest 12:24:00 maybe xiaoqian or Yves know 12:24:03 easy to check, which email address? 12:25:21 it's db-backed so yes 12:25:23 I have @rivoal.net on public but not member 12:25:39 the member ml will be updated when there will be an incoming msg 12:25:43 ah, true 12:26:02 so it should be yes, but if not, ping me ;) 12:27:05 yeah, I checked the list before I asked and Florian was not listed (not surprised "it takes some time") 12:27:30 found a way to force update, and you're there 12:27:36 thanks 12:28:14 bwe prepared for a flood of email of about 4 per 2 monthes 12:29:26 I'm already on p-webaps, www-style, and i18n, related testing mls, and the whatwg, so I think I should be able to handle that huge increase in traffic. 12:29:35 :) 12:29:40 good :) 12:39:58 fjh has joined #webapps 13:37:56 fjh has joined #webapps 13:43:57 anssik has joined #webapps 13:45:21 fjh has joined #webapps 13:45:50 kawai has joined #webapps 14:30:52 smaug has joined #webapps 14:37:25 uniqname has joined #webapps 14:42:36 jyasskin has joined #webapps 14:59:34 Is member-webapps used for the same thing as w3-css-wg? (publication requests, meeting scheduling, announcements of members joining and leaving, other non technical administrativia) Do some of these topics belong on the public mailing list instead? 15:01:37 Florian: it's pretty much non tech admin, but with very little traffic 15:02:09 1-2 messages per month 15:02:34 Florian: unlike in CSS where everything seems to somehow be gated, in WebApps people can just publish WDs 15:02:42 you just make a public announcement after the fact 15:03:19 tantek has joined #webapps 15:03:29 darobin: we're moving to that in the csswg as well. Both at the tooling level, and at the "who can ask for this" level, after your little exchange with Tab on twitter 15:03:40 \o/ 15:03:58 It's not done yet, but that's the direction 15:04:06 that's good to hear 15:04:10 WebApps == anarchy [by design] ;-) 15:04:23 I don't know why people insist on making things painful for themselves 15:04:26 then blaming W3C for it 15:04:41 yeah, WebApps is chaos Florian 15:04:55 in fact, you've used up your quota of process-related questions for the coming two years 15:05:09 The CSSWG typically doesn't complain much about W3C process. But we've just discovered thanks to you a bit of overhead we might not need 15:05:11 it's the JFDI WG 15:05:45 I don't need more than that quota, just needed to adjust to the local norm. Now that it's done, I'm good to go 15:06:13 chaals has joined #webapps 15:06:21 just be nice, bring some chocolate, don't ask permission :) 15:06:52 you can replace chocolate with saucisson 15:06:53 but but but. How can I bring chocolate if you don't actually have physical meetings. Chocolate once per year at TPAC is not sufficient. 15:07:59 I can survive on saucisson and chocolate, so I should be at home here. 15:08:11 s/survive/thrive/ 15:13:04 uniqname_ has joined #webapps 15:13:09 uniqname has left #webapps 15:16:39 schuki has joined #webapps 15:16:48 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 15:16:49 krijnhoetmerbot has joined #webapps 15:16:51 richt has joined #webapps 15:16:52 kentaromiura has joined #webapps 15:16:58 shepazu has joined #webapps 15:18:58 MikeSmith has joined #webapps 15:19:00 decadance has joined #webapps 15:19:28 mounir has joined #webapps 15:22:03 jgraham has joined #webapps 15:25:30 chaals has joined #webapps 15:39:31 kawai has joined #webapps 15:52:41 sicking has joined #webapps 16:40:34 kawai has joined #webapps 16:46:24 jsbell has joined #webapps 17:03:51 marcosc has joined #webapps 17:08:37 Florian has joined #webapps 17:09:03 rniwa has joined #webapps 17:09:42 Florian has joined #webapps 17:15:21 uniqname_ has joined #webapps 17:41:36 kawai has joined #webapps 17:56:19 rniwa has joined #webapps 18:00:13 rniwa_ has joined #webapps 18:08:34 marcosc has joined #webapps 18:11:54 Florian has joined #webapps 18:46:39 Florian has joined #webapps 18:59:41 uniqname has joined #webapps 19:30:37 kawai has joined #webapps 19:52:49 jyasskin has joined #webapps 20:11:02 rniwa has joined #webapps 21:17:47 uniqname has joined #webapps 21:55:40 uniqname has joined #webapps 22:18:59 uniqname has joined #webapps 00:10:26 kawai has joined #webapps 02:24:39 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:26:09 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:52:56 sicking has joined #webapps 03:53:34 Florian has joined #webapps 03:58:35 sicking has joined #webapps 04:00:45 sicking has joined #webapps 04:31:08 sicking has joined #webapps 04:48:15 sicking has joined #webapps 05:04:11 sicking has joined #webapps 06:16:47 marcosc has joined #webapps 06:42:32 dom has joined #webapps 06:47:34 sicking has joined #webapps 08:00:46 Florian has joined #webapps 08:06:26 marcosc has joined #webapps 09:05:36 mounir has joined #webapps 09:12:45 richt has joined #webapps 09:12:49 mounir has joined #webapps 09:18:52 mounir has joined #webapps 09:24:19 darobin has joined #webapps 09:36:55 mounir has joined #webapps 09:43:04 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 09:47:00 jgraham has joined #webapps 09:51:32 ArtB has joined #webapps 09:52:46 darobin has joined #webapps 09:53:20 dom has joined #webapps 09:53:27 jgraham has joined #webapps 09:54:29 mounir has joined #webapps 10:01:00 mounir has joined #webapps 10:06:43 mounir has joined #webapps 10:09:33 smaug has joined #webapps 10:23:00 jgraham has joined #webapps 10:23:21 gsnedders has joined #webapps 10:23:32 decadance has joined #webapps 10:23:35 ArtB1 has joined #webapps 10:23:36 MikeSmith has joined #webapps 10:23:36 raucao has joined #webapps 10:23:57 krijnhoetmer has joined #webapps 10:28:59 wilsonpage has joined #webapps 10:29:48 darobin has joined #webapps 10:31:54 smaug has joined #webapps 10:33:11 mounir has joined #webapps 10:33:13 chaals has joined #webapps 10:33:55 Florian has joined #webapps 10:34:17