13:59:34 RRSAgent has joined #svg 13:59:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-svg-irc 13:59:36 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:59:36 Zakim has joined #svg 13:59:38 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 13:59:38 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:59:39 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 13:59:39 Date: 10 June 2015 14:00:26 Zakim: room for 4? 14:00:37 Zakim, room for 4? 14:00:38 ok, heycam; conference Team_(svg)14:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1500Z 14:01:06 ACTION: Cameron to make blue boxes have a separate section for x/y/width/height presentation attributes on rect etc. 14:01:07 Created ACTION-3799 - Make blue boxes have a separate section for x/y/width/height presentation attributes on rect etc. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-06-17]. 14:01:10 Team_(svg)14:00Z has now started 14:01:17 +??P0 14:01:20 Chair: Cameron 14:01:25 BogdanBrinza_ has joined #svg 14:01:41 Zakim, [?? is svgwg 14:01:41 sorry, ed, I do not recognize a party named '[??' 14:01:51 Zakim, [??P0 is svgwg 14:01:51 sorry, ed, I do not recognize a party named '[??P0' 14:01:55 Zakim, ??P0 is svgwg 14:01:55 +svgwg; got it 14:04:38 AmeliaBR has joined #svg 14:04:53 +[IPcaller] 14:05:03 RRSAgent, make log public 14:05:03 -svgwg 14:05:13 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:05:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-svg-minutes.html AmeliaBR 14:05:15 Zakim, who is here? 14:05:15 On the phone I see [IPcaller] 14:05:17 On IRC I see AmeliaBR, BogdanBrinza_, Zakim, RRSAgent, stakagi, Tavmjong, fs, shane, cabanier, krit, pdr, slightlyoff, iank, nikos, TabAtkins, amtiskaw, birtles, mihnea_____, 14:05:17 ... shepazu, heycam, Rossen, plinss, botie, trackbot, ed 14:05:25 Zakim, [IP is svgwg 14:05:25 +svgwg; got it 14:08:19 +??P0 14:08:51 zakim, ??P0 is me 14:08:51 +AmeliaBR; got it 14:09:33 Topic: removing features without replacements 14:09:38 ScribeNick: heycam 14:09:42 Scribe: Cameron 14:10:02 AmeliaBR: I feel there was a desire to clear off and remove undefined behaviour, but I'm not sure that getting rid of things is a good outcome of that 14:10:15 ... especially the getTransformToElement, it's something that works most of the time 14:10:26 ... and to remove it because there are some undefined edge cases seems like a step backwards 14:10:46 ... the other thing from yesterday that at first glanced looked the same was external 14:10:54 ... I think from reading the notes that it's clear nobody wants to remove this 14:11:04 ... just clearly explain that there are some situations that are undefined relating to them 14:11:14 ... but we don't want to step backwards just to avoid undefined behaviour 14:11:31 ed: for the element, I don't think we concluded whether we should add a new module or not 14:11:42 ... there was some resistance unless we have someone to take ownership of that and drive it forward 14:11:56 ... so there's not really any place to put the definitions that would be required to have external , unless there's someone to drive it 14:12:11 ... I think the idea right now would be to try to figure out the things that are undefined, and make them explicitly undefined in the SVG 2 spec 14:12:33 AmeliaBR: I'll follow up this and send something in writing, but are you comfortable with the idea of wording that more precisely abotu which aspects are undefined? 14:12:47 ... specifically say, script, style sheets and the size of the viewport used are undefined 14:12:59 ... which seems like a lot, but avoids the most common use case of external use for a page full of symbols 14:13:08 ... and a page full of symbols works just fine, in all browsers except one 14:13:20 ... and we don't want to make it seem like that's suddenly a scary area that authors couldn't rely on 14:13:33 ed: yes, if you do avoid scripting and certain things, then yes there are fewer things under/undefined 14:14:05 AmeliaBR: I'll follow up and send a written reply, trying to narrow down exactly what currently is undefined, and I'll follow up with something addressing it 14:14:06 -svgwg 14:14:30 +[IPcaller] 14:14:49 ed: the spec does have some issues listed around the element, detailing some of the things that are not defined well 14:14:52 ... so you could use that as a start 14:15:03 ... some of those things have been resolved already 14:15:14 ... and I hope those issues in the spec has links to the resolutions 14:15:18 ... not sure I've updated each one of them 14:15:28 AmeliaBR: that whole section is half issue text right now 14:15:57 Topic: path segment list DOM API 14:16:06 AmeliaBR: seems like people want to deal with these, and so want to remove them 14:16:17 ... it depends on what's happening with the more generic DOM geometry spec 14:16:26 ... is there a commitment to cleaning up DOM for SVG 2? 14:16:32 ... or is it something that should be formally put aside 14:17:21 heycam: I think we did put aside the great DOM overhaul 14:17:27 ... but there are still some issues that people wanted to discuss 14:17:40 ... like removing animVal or making it an alias for baseVal 14:18:36 AmeliaBR: it's the question of getting rid of something that works some of the time, without having something that works all of the time yet 14:18:51 ... Web Animations should have some sort of replacement for accessing animation data, but it's not stable and implemented yet 14:18:59 ed: some parts are being implemented, at least in Blink 14:19:10 nikos: for me, looking at WebKit stuff, animVal is making implementing Web Animations stuff a lot more difficult 14:19:18 ... if we could get rid of it first, we could get Web Animations going a lot quicker 14:19:24 ... otherwise we might not bother 14:19:53 AmeliaBR: for that particular case, I'm not going to be too much of a defender. there are a few use cases where it's nice, but generally cases where you shouldn't be using SMIL animation 14:20:02 ... if you need to find the animated value half way through you should be using scripted 14:20:22 ... I think I was a bit worried about the approach of using use counters to get rid of features that don't necessarily have easy alternative ways of getting them 14:20:43 ... sounds like there is a strong push cleaning up some of the basic DOM now, and if a future spec extends DOM then that'll be something better an greater 14:20:48 s/an g/and g/ 14:21:38 heycam: at one point people were talking about removing more, like rect.x, but I think that's a step too far currently 14:21:55 AmeliaBR: now that we've promoted these to properties, getting a computed style value makes more sense than the SVG DOM interface 14:23:59 heycam: and making animVal an alias to baseVal would avoid the need to define how to reflect computed property values in animVal 14:24:18 [some discussion about aliasing animVal to baseVal] 14:24:43 AmeliaBR: I know I've used demos that rely on animVal actually doing the animated value, but I'm not sure how much practical use case there is 14:24:56 ... and already it's annoying, beacuse it only reflects SMIL animation and not CSS animations 14:25:23 ed: what are the other options we have? 14:25:28 ed: dropping animVal completely. might be hard. 14:25:37 nikos: the problem with that is that animVal seems the natural choice to read from over baseVal 14:25:44 ... you think, might as well read from animVal, in case it's animated 14:25:50 ed: ok. not objecting, just wondering what other options we have. 14:26:30 AmeliaBR: what happened to the idea of getting new functions on the SVGAnimatedLength? so that you could use units directly on there. 14:26:53 heycam: that got removed 14:27:13 AmeliaBR: so it's a "we'll fix this in the future" 14:27:55 ed: the only possible objection I have is that it makes it harder to remove baseVal 14:29:15 AmeliaBR: I had an intention of going through the spec and adding issues as I go 14:29:43 ... also was going to clean up the multiple fills/strokes definitions, since they're not implementable 14:29:53 ... I got good feedback from Tab/Dirk about why the spec is as is 14:31:08 ... I added a couple of points on the agenda -- one of which is relating to DOM more useful, but if the decision was to not fuss with the DOM maybe that won't happen 14:31:56 -AmeliaBR 14:31:58 -[IPcaller] 14:31:59 Team_(svg)14:00Z has ended 14:31:59 Attendees were svgwg, [IPcaller], AmeliaBR 14:40:41 stakagi_ has joined #svg 14:58:26 BogdanBrinza has joined #svg 14:58:30 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/implnote.html#issue1 15:16:04 http://bryanbraun.github.io/after-dark-css/all/flying-toasters.html 15:58:08 stakagi has joined #svg 16:24:31 Zakim has left #svg 16:25:14 stakagi has joined #svg 16:35:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:35:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-svg-minutes.html heycam 16:36:38 Present: Jun, Satoru, Nikos, Cameron, Frederick, Erik, Tav, Dirk, Rossen, Bogdan 16:36:53 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:36:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/10-svg-minutes.html heycam 16:54:26 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015May/0002.html