13:24:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
13:24:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-webfonts-irc
13:24:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:24:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
13:24:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
13:24:18 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:24:19 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
13:24:19 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2015
13:24:40 <ChrisL> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
13:24:55 <ChrisL> zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
13:24:55 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
13:25:05 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
13:25:09 <ChrisL> chair: vlad
13:26:12 <ChrisL> Present: Vlad, kuettel, RSheeter, sergey, ChrisL
13:26:20 <ChrisL> topic: predefined tables
13:26:45 <ChrisL> Vlad: we have more tables than bits. do we swap out a less used one? or use a custom table?
13:27:02 <ChrisL> Vlad: we need to add meta
13:27:48 <ChrisL> Vlad: we have OT tables, all known, then AAT which are somewaht used, then odd stuff
13:28:05 <ChrisL> ChrisL: the graphite tables are also there
13:28:18 <ChrisL> kuettel: we have seen fonts with those tables
13:29:11 <ChrisL> ChrisL: (explains Graphite)
13:29:36 <ChrisL> RSheeter: easiest is to leave it alone and use 4 bytes
13:29:57 <ChrisL> Vlad: we excluded vendore-specific tables used in production but not deployment
13:30:20 <ChrisL> kuettel: when we did data gathering we only listed tables we actually saw
13:31:48 <ChrisL> Vlad: ok so known table flags are full so any other table will use arbitrary tag flag plus actual tag, which is 4 bytes. no impact on functionality
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13:32:13 <ChrisL> sergeym: we know we use it a lot and apople does too in their system fonts. no data on frequency of use
13:32:24 <ChrisL> sergeym: its okay
13:33:57 <ChrisL> kuettel (shows list of observed table frequencies)
13:34:09 <ChrisL> ... (looks for link)
13:34:42 <ChrisL> s/vendore/vendor/
13:34:43 <Vlad> s/apople/apple
13:35:07 <ChrisL> s/fat fingers/agile, nimble fingers/
13:36:00 <kuettel> kuettel has joined #webfonts
13:36:10 <kuettel> Here is the "Known Table Tags Proposal" thread from earlier
13:36:11 <kuettel> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2014Apr/0010.html
13:36:55 <kuettel> And here is the direct link to the spreadsheet with the underlying proposal data
13:36:56 <kuettel> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/111MT0l7LOVqotAnMXD4PMOm36jTPSznUigJPfxUYY_0/edit#gid=0
13:37:43 <ChrisL> sergeym: meta is currently being defined
13:38:01 <ChrisL> Vlad: next SC29 is in 2 weeks, could add to ammendment
13:38:15 <ChrisL> sergeym: someone from Si Daniel's team is working on it
13:38:47 <ChrisL> Vlad: (discussion of who on the team is doing it)
13:39:13 <ChrisL> Vlad: could you ask who is doing the proposal? end of this week is the deadline
13:39:32 <ChrisL> sergeym: we can send a mail to the list about it
13:40:12 <ChrisL> Vlad: just need a draft spec language, and no objections
13:41:15 <ChrisL> kuettel: in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/111MT0l7LOVqotAnMXD4PMOm36jTPSznUigJPfxUYY_0/edit#gid=0 the grey ones wwre allocated early, the green ones are the new OT tables
13:41:35 <ChrisL> ... color font ones from v.3
13:41:50 <ChrisL> ... after that, AAT and Graphite which we did find in use
13:42:01 <ChrisL> ... color font ones expected to be in use later
13:42:16 <ChrisL> ... so changes would affect fonts in the wild
13:42:58 <ChrisL> Vlad: cvt is widely used
13:43:34 <ChrisL> RSheeter: should not reallocate ones in the OT spec
13:43:43 <ChrisL> kuettel: so everything allocated is used
13:44:28 <ChrisL> resolved: leave known tables bitfield as it is
13:44:38 <ChrisL> sergeym: ok
13:45:39 <ChrisL> Vlad: even glyf table could be defined both ways, not forbidden. two parallel mechanisms to identify tables. no prefferential treatment
13:46:44 <ChrisL> topic: cts plans
13:47:00 <ChrisL> Vlad: aim is to have no undefined items at end of meeting
13:48:17 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool
13:48:43 <ChrisL> Vlad: get rid of the untestables and the no-longer a requirement ones
13:51:04 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/#conform-mustNotDuplicateTables
13:51:35 <ChrisL> Vlad: it says physical tables, so if shared its in a collection directory, but physical table must only be presented once
13:53:27 <ChrisL> sergeym: need to check our tools do the right thing on all shared tables. if not shared on the input font, do we want to force the woff2 encoder to fail the check
13:54:29 <ChrisL> sergeym: if it was shared in input font, it will be shared in woff
13:54:35 <ChrisL> ... meaning smae data
13:54:53 <ChrisL> ... but then if there is the same data, that could have been shared
13:55:00 <ChrisL> RSheeter: don't want to do that
13:55:12 <ChrisL> ChrisL: no, don't check for that
13:55:37 <ChrisL> Vlad: each font can have it s own name table, but its not the tag but the offset that defines
13:57:39 <ChrisL> ChrisL: don't want the wording to suggest a requirement for identity/duplicate table checking
13:57:46 <ChrisL> (general agreement)
13:58:16 <ChrisL> RSheeter: physical tables is a poor term
13:58:44 <ChrisL> sergeym: if original font shared it, woff2 should share it
13:59:00 <ChrisL> RSheeter: should not end up with more table offsets than you started with
13:59:46 <ChrisL> Vlad: physical data must not be duplicated, is the intent
14:01:25 <ChrisL> Vlad: clear this up by removing the mention of input font
14:01:29 <ChrisL> ChrisL: works for me
14:05:00 <ChrisL> kuettel: this is the only mention of physical table, which is undefined
14:05:26 <ChrisL> RSheeter: if tables in input have same offset, corresponding entries in the woff should point to the same index
14:06:30 <ChrisL> (discussion of bizarre cases with unused duplicate tables that nothing points to)
14:08:33 <ChrisL> (live spec editing)
14:09:15 <RSheeter> If two tables have the same offset in the input font, the corresponding indices in the CollectionFontEntry in the woff2 file MUST be the same.
14:15:35 <ChrisL> (discussion on whether the validator should also look at the input sfnt as well as the output woff, and custom vs. general purpose validators)
14:17:40 <ChrisL> ChrisL: edited https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustNotDuplicateTables
14:19:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: make a dummy collection where all the entries are the same
14:22:37 <ChrisL> RSheeter: if a table is physically duplicated and one copy unreferenced, it is a gap
14:22:50 <ChrisL> (we need to check the gap requirement mentions collections)
14:25:23 <RSheeter> http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/#conform-overlap-reject
14:38:20 <ChrisL> (discussion on testing for extraneous data between tables in the compressed datastream)
14:39:43 <ChrisL> Vlad: section 5 for compressed data format is the place for extraneous data mention
14:40:10 <ChrisL> RSheeter: add a 5.5 specifiying restrictions on tables not having gaps
14:40:26 <ChrisL> Vlad: or at the beginning section which applies to the whole datablock
14:47:01 <ChrisL> kuettel: we need two, one FF and one AT
14:49:25 <ChrisL> (live spec editing)
15:18:37 <ChrisL> discussion of https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustTransformMultipeGlyfLoca
15:36:41 <ChrisL> (editing https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustVerifyGlyfLocaShared )
15:38:11 <ChrisL> (split into two tests)
15:58:12 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustRejectSingleGlyfLocaShared seems okay
15:58:58 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
15:59:06 <ChrisL> (or maybe not)
15:59:27 <ChrisL> sergey we are discussing https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustRejectSingleGlyfLocaShared
16:07:43 <ChrisL> (we split into two tests)
16:07:46 <ChrisL> discussing http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/#conform-mustRecordCollectionEntryIndex
16:09:55 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-AuthoringTool#mustRecordCollectionEntryIndex
16:30:20 <ChrisL> RSheeter: in a number of places in the spec we need to explicit about the array suffix
16:30:46 <ChrisL> ... such as starting at zero
16:34:37 <RSheeter> starting at zero is specifically for http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/#conform-mustRecordCollectionEntryIndex (never explicitly said it started at 0)
16:35:40 <RSheeter> Array suffixes would be nice (at least for me) in http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/#glyf_table_format, which tends to just use the name xxxStream to indicate it repeats, eg "UInt32 nContourStream" vs "UInt32 nCountourStream[nContourStreamSize]"
17:56:50 <ChrisL> must use transform on glyph and loca seems to be missing from spec
17:57:27 <RSheeter> <span class="conform at" id="mustUseTransform"> needs conform- prefix in id
18:07:02 <ChrisL> necessity to reference RFC6919 averted http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919#section-4
18:09:10 <ChrisL> done with autoring tool test plan
18:09:23 <ChrisL> topic: font format test plan
18:09:32 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-Format#magicNumber
18:09:43 <ChrisL> RSheeter: OMG it's full of assertions
18:10:11 <RSheeter> *gasp*
18:10:16 <kuettel> kuettel has joined #webfonts
18:21:09 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
18:21:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-webfonts-irc#T18-21-09
18:21:47 <ChrisL> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group f2f, Woburn
18:22:06 <ChrisL> Present+ Khaled
18:24:50 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
18:31:16 <ChrisL> sergeym, we are going through https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-Format
18:34:26 <Khaled> Khaled has joined #webfonts
18:36:43 <ChrisL> action: RSheeter to make a new github repo with the compiled output from the test generator
18:36:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Make a new github repo with the compiled output from the test generator [on Roderick Sheeter - due 2015-06-16].
18:37:39 <ChrisL> Khaled, we are going through https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-Format
18:37:51 <ChrisL> editing it live
18:51:30 <ChrisL> (discussion on desirability of a test case where the font data and the metadata are erroneously all compressed in one brotli stream)
18:51:40 <ChrisL> Khaled: its not impossible to make this
18:52:03 <ChrisL> kuettel: would the extraneous tests not catch this
18:52:33 <ChrisL> Khaled: such a font should be rejected by the validator
18:53:09 <ChrisL> Topic: User Agent tests
18:53:15 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-UserAgent
19:04:52 <kuettel> kuettel has joined #webfonts
19:14:18 <ChrisL> (we discuss whether an unsorted table directory will cause a UA to not render a font, for excample because OTS rejects it)
19:20:50 <ChrisL> table directory order and table order are changed from conformance requirements into a pointer to the OFF specification
19:26:42 <ChrisL> ChrisL: we have conflated general decoder tests and user agent (browser) tests. We should split these into two conformance classes. Especially for TTC which can be inspected and are supported in software, but nit currently in browsers
19:30:27 <ChrisL> ChrisL: created https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-Decoder
19:39:08 <ChrisL> (discussion of extraneous-reject UA test)
19:40:02 <ChrisL> (in particular that only inter-block extraneous data is covered in this section.)
19:40:58 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan20-UserAgent#mustRejectExtraData
20:08:18 <ChrisL> (wondering what browsers do with a font with incorrect checksums)
21:01:42 <ChrisL> action: vlad to add decoder category to woff2, and add to stylesheet
21:01:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Add decoder category to woff2, and add to stylesheet [on Vladimir Levantovsky - due 2015-06-16].
21:01:53 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #webfonts
21:24:55 <Zakim> ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
21:31:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webfonts
21:32:01 <ChrisL> oh zakim, you lightweight
21:32:15 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
21:32:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-webfonts-irc#T21-32-15
21:46:55 <ChrisL> action-181?
21:46:55 <trackbot> action-181 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to Add decoder category to woff2, and add to stylesheet -- due 2015-06-16 -- OPEN
21:46:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/181
21:48:35 <ChrisL> I edited conform.css to add a fourth class, dc for decoder
21:51:19 <ChrisL> Topic: action items
21:51:30 <ChrisL> close action-177
21:51:30 <trackbot> Closed action-177.
21:51:35 <ChrisL> action-177?
21:51:35 <trackbot> action-177 -- Jonathan Kew to Propose two-bit per table version number -- due 2015-06-03 -- CLOSED
21:51:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/177
21:51:46 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/open
21:52:26 <ChrisL> action-171?
21:52:26 <trackbot> action-171 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to Review conformance reqs to ensure they can actually be implemented -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
21:52:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/171
21:52:32 <ChrisL> close action-171
21:52:32 <trackbot> Closed action-171.
21:54:27 <ChrisL> action-818?
21:54:27 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-818 does not exist.
21:54:34 <ChrisL> action-181?
21:54:34 <trackbot> action-181 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to Add decoder category to woff2, and add to stylesheet -- due 2015-06-16 -- OPEN
21:54:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/181
21:54:43 <ChrisL> partly done (stylesheet part)
21:56:22 <ChrisL> action: vlad to check with barbara re atypi-colocated meeting
21:56:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-182 - Check with barbara re atypi-colocated meeting [on Vladimir Levantovsky - due 2015-06-16].
21:56:42 <ChrisL> (adjourned, agenda finished)
21:56:51 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
21:57:18 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
21:57:22 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:57:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
22:05:58 <ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Brazil
22:09:06 <RSheeter> RSheeter has joined #webfonts
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